Years ago in the heydey of the Jewish blogs there was a widely read essay called "Daas Hedyot vs Daas Torah" which demonstrated that, in every major criss that affected the Torah community in the last 200 years, Daas Torah had gotten it wrong and Daas Hedyot had gotten it right. In this crisis, that happened again. Those who listened to Daas Hedyot isolated themselves early. Those who listened to Daas Torah stayed in shuls and yeshivos even after "the Gedolim" banned any gatherings. And look what happened?
I read closely Rabbi Goldimer’s excellent article. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2020/05/for-some-reluctant-trump-voters.html True: “The haredi rabbis, and most Jewish leaders in Europe and America, unfortunately were unaware of Hitler’s real plans for European and Middle Eastern Jewry until it was too late - blaming them for lack of timely information is foolish and cruel.” I remember Rabbi Yitz Greenberg giving thoughtful lectures my days at Yeshiva University. He is a professor of history. I agree with Rabbi Goldimer: “Greenberg has shown here that he does not represent Orthodox Judaism and that he is no friend of the Orthodox community. In the past, he has made declarations that God rescinded His Covenant with the Jewish People and that “Jesus is not a false messiah, merely a failed one,” and today has a leadership role in the Open Orthodox movement.” No. God never rescinded His Covenant with the Jewish People.
Gordimer has a template for all his articles, he just rehashes it again and again. He is clearly talking rubbish here, and this is the same with most of the deck he blogs about. Firstly, the gemara does make a number of rational statements, like the one quoted by Yitz Greenberg. It also says not to walk under a weak wall. This is the complete opposite of the hareidi outlook, that dictates people do things in a retrograde and atavistic fashion, dress in a way that they get targeted, take risks with parnassah by eschewing worldly trades (despite the Talmud make ng it a chiyuv to study a trade). Regarding isolation, the hareidi leadership in England published a joker daas Torah (Chas v shalom) that minyanim stay open for under 70s, to spite the modern orthodox who closed all their shuls. Holocaust - he's rehashing the same bad scholarship that rav Hutner published in the Jewish observer (after his sad hijack ordeal). The idea that the nazis had no antisemitic bones in their bodies until mufti Al husseini convinced Hitler to destroy the yidden (some decades after he had already published Mein Kampf! Shows what a brainwashed imbecile Gordimer is.
BTW, Rommel, who is the theoretical baddie in this story, never rounder up
If Ramban were alive today, he might also have the honor of being attacked by Gordimer.
Ramban said that it's a mitzvah to establish a nation state in eretz Israel in every generation (no oaths). He said that there is no basis in the Torah for the rabbis to enact new gexeiras, or that obliges us to follow their words.
In one commentary, he says that Ibn Ezra did worse than the Karaites (ibn Ezra wrote a polemical commentary against karaite methods and beliefs).
Could such great rabbi as the Ramban survive today in the hareidi world?
It depends on the context of the statement. Nathan, initially makes an everlasting covenant with king David that his kingdom will last forever. However, this has not been the case. At the end of 1st temple, the throne of David and his seed is extinguished. In 2nd temple era there is no King at all, until the hasmonean kings who were not davidic. Today, there is no king whatsoever. In one of the neviim (perhaps Jeremiah?) it says G-d will establish a new covenant with Israel. You can't have a new covenant without rescinding the old one. False /failed is semantic. There is no failed moshiach, it's an oxymoron. Jesus failed to satisfy halachic criteria of moshiach, hence failed hence false.
False _ unaware is false and misleading. A secular journalist named Binyamin Zeev Herzl zl, warned them already. He went from town to town to speak to Jewish communities and urged them to move to Israel. He was rebuffed. Hitler had already published mein kampf. Even during the war, visas were refused by hareidi leaders. The infamous letter regarding YU, and better do die physically than spiritually, proves that Gordimer is not only a liar, he is a rasha, and motzi Shem ra (a career motzi Shem ra).
So do you recommend listening to Daas Hedyot and relying on all the leniencies coming from public pressure instead of to Daas Torah who say to be more michmir than those with no concept of nor respect for Pikuach Nefesh as defined by the Torah, instead trampling over it at every opportunity with chilul Shabbos, eating nevelos utrefos etc.?!
The Rebbe from Ger was the first and almost only Rebbe to cancel his tish on Purim. He's receiving behind a glass window with a mic. The only source I can imagine is his health minister.
Thank you for asking for clarifications, as I have to clarify what I stated above regarding Nachmanides.
1) Regarding the Mitzvh of Yishuv E.Y. , I heard this in Rav Breitowitz' shiur https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ael7FMRdaM0 He says that Ramban classifies this mitzvah as having 4 components, one of which is to establish a Jewish homeland in EY .
2) I overstated what Ramban says on Devarim: The correct statement is here: In a well-known comment, Rabbenu Moshe ben Nachman (Nachmanides or Ramban) characterized the unique style of the book while at the same time strenuously proclaiming that the difference in style--first-person instead of third-person narration-- does not express any basic change from the other Biblical books:
"The matter of Deuteronomy which is written in first-person narration is not a difficulty... for the book opens, "These are the words which Moses addressed to all Israel" [in regular third-person naration] and the continuation of the book relates matters as if quoting Moses.... [Moses is like] a scribe copying from an ancient work...but it is true and clear ... that from Genesis until "displayed before all Israel"(Deut. 34:12, the
last verse of the Torah) came from the mouth of the Holy One blessed be He to the ears of Moses (Nachmanides, from his introduction to the Torah)."
The position I attributed to him is actually found in Rashi and Midrash Tanchuma
Rashi comments there: "Moses spoke them in the name of G-d
and became a messenger to say," thus said the Holy One
blessed be He", for they are worded (in first person singular):
and I will give ... and I will place ... and I will send, referring
to the One who has the power to act; but in Mishneh Torah
it is written: The Lord will strike you... The Lord will afflict
you, Moses spoke these words on his own initiative - if you transgress
No, but I recommend that Daas Torah, instead of handing down diktats from "above" listen to Daas Heydot and consider what it's saying when they're formulating their positions. For example, in this case when the decree was "Bittul Torah is worse than this virus", when the Health Minister refused to cancel Purim gatherings, well that was definitely Daas Torah being meikel with pikuach nefesh.
Pikuach Nefesh was left out of the book by adherents of the novel hareidi concept of Daas Torah, prior to and during the holocaust. A major gadol debunked pikuach Nefesh for his own innovated concept _ it's better to die physically than to die spiritually in yeshiva university ( the Torah says you can /should violate Shabbes and kashrut to save lives. ) the letter is widely available.
you dont seem to know or acknowledge that daas Torah is typically based on consultations with askonim the problem is that the advisors who are ignorant but are more aggressive are more likely to be influential there is a video i posted of someone tellingr Rav Eliyashav that because he is the godol and he should therefore he should do X Rav Dovid Feinstein told me he never heard his father invoke the a authority "since I am Daas Torah" gedolim are regularly bullied by askonim and rich baal habatim there are such stories even with RavShach, the Steipler and RavChaim
If what you write is true and is typical in daas Torah statements at least for the past 50 years, then it proves that daas Torah is a completely false notion, and contrary to Halacha. Since when is a judge , posek or Rav told what to do by the money? If so, they must remove themselves from their position.
If "Daas Torah" is therefore derived from ignorant, aggressive, bullying askonim and wealthy men who function as nothing more than political hacks attempting to control gedolim, isn't that all the more reason "Daas Torah" should be completely ignored?
no it simply mans not to automatically reject the Daas Torah decree but to ask for additional information Which is what happens especially if it comes from Rav Chaim concerning medical issues or the issues of sexual abuse, reporting or cases like the Slifkin Affair or Making of a Gado
For example in the Gulf War the daas Hedyot was to return to Americal
I believe the Ramban listed settling the land as a mitzvah and crticized the Rambam for not doing so but settling the land is not the same as establishing a nation state. During the British Mandate the mitzvah of settling the land was fulfilled even though the accursed English were running the place.
I'm well aware of the old computer principle: GIGO: garbage in = garbage out. I don't doubt that when Rav Chaim announced that bittul Torah is worse than the vrius, he was working with faulty information which resulted in a terrible decision. In Eim Habanim Semeicha, Rav Teichtal, hy"d, states that the reason the Munkatcher Rebbe was so anti-Zionist is because he was surrounded by anti-Zionist yes-men and never heard a countering opinion. Had he been made aware of all the sources that the EHS was aware of, he might not have been so opposed. But ultimately that's the problem. A good leader not only needs to be surrounded by people from various backgrounds with various opinions but also needs to be aware that he needs to be. If "the Gedolim", looking around the room, don't think "Hey, we need some diversity of opinion in here" then that falls on them.
Problem is that most believers simply accept it as a decree coming from Sinai, and do not entertain any questions. One version I heard from a Hareidi Rabbi was that Daati Leumi is problematic since they don't accept "Daas Torah".
Rav Isaac Bernstein ztl of London would say that there may be many Deot of Torah, but not a single Daat Torah.
One case you mentioned above, in the Making of gadol, Reb Nosson ztl spoke out against one of the instigators, who hurt him very badly. This whole shameful episode was not carried out correctly or according to halacha - Reb Nosson was not given the opportunity to defend himself as required. One of the askanim lied to RYSE ztl, saying he refused to attend.
it is analagous to science - if they are relying on their crooked askonim /faulty diagnostic kits, they will get the wrong results.
Ramban actually calls for *conquering the land, and that is what he declares as the positive mitzvah. So, no.
There are rishonim who explain adequately the seeming "argument" here or how Rambam seemed to omit this mitzvah in the taryag (and inconsistently so compared to his other views/statements), because Rambam considered settling the land a "prerequisite" of sorts or category that is beyond and inapplicable to a listing of individual taryag mitzvot according to the guidelines he set for doing so. (And that explanation not only seems reasonable but restores the consistency on the subject in his writings and halachic rulings).
To my knowledge there is only one rishon who took the exclusion literally, and being able to cherry pick this implausible explanation enabled the weaving of tales by a certain chassidic Rebbe of satmar.
Unfortunately the link no longer works But we notice that as soon as a new Gadol hador is crowned, they take some bold steps condemning issues that were previously tolerated. This happened with RYSE, eg sheitels, books etc, and also Rav Shach, eg Lubavitcher, steinsaltz etc. It is to assert their power in a new role and gain acceptance by the community leaders , donors and influences.
It's very interesting, and in retrospect one sees Rav elyashiv's greatness, which is wasted on these little questions. The structure is wrong, there should be some formal Bet Din, where the gadol sits with several other dayanim. These people are not giving him a chance to respond, or to deliberate. A couple of guys in their 40s talking so fast. Also, he is not looking into any sefarim. This was the case with slifkin, nobody read the book, yet it was banned. It's a poor process for decision making. And he is being fed a story by these guys, who could be misrepresenting the matter. He should not have retired , and stayed stayed on at the rabbanut.
Historical revision is an important part of Chareidi theology. Mistakes made by leaders who had "ruach hakodesh" must either be erased or history must be revised to show they were right. This is a new one though: Hitler, y"sh, planned a massacre of Jews in Israel so aliyah wouldn't have saved anybody. Wow. Never mind that only a minority of European Jews would've gone to Israel with the rest going to North America. I'm sure the next one will be that Hitler was building an a-bomb and with his V2 rockets he would've nuked Borough Park and Crown Heights so running to the US wouldn't have saved anyone.
It's nice for a person to decide for himself that he would rather die physically than spiritually. His choice after making his personal cheshbon. But I don't think a leader has a moral right to look at his community (while standing in a train station about to leave for Israel with the help of the Zionists he spent decades attacking, for example) and make that choice for them.
There is a radical Rav in Israel named David bar hayyim. He once characterized Hareidi rabbis as focussing on a single issue and making a big noise about it. There was an essay I read some time ago about the tragic course of events in Rav elchanan wasserman's final years. He also was doing this, saying that only daas Torah decisions must be made. So he mimicked the daas Torah strategy of gedolim during ww1. But ww 1 was a different Germany, it was not Nazi Germany, they had Jews in the army. It was a different kettle of fish. It's like trying to fix a computer using tools for an old typewriter. The revisionism that Gordie is bringing is a well known retort that I've heard over the past 25 years. I don't know where it originated, but may have been in the Rav hutner /observer debate. They claim retrospectively, that El alamain was a certain victory for the Germans, and that Israel would have been occupied. However, only by miracle did they lose to the British. But nobody ever said this in regards to Zionism or aliyah. The reasons against Zionism were only a) 3 oaths, and b) the secular leadership and ideology. Nobody ever said its assur because of Rommel. No such prophecy was made. Even in retrospect it's still a false prophecy, it didn't even happen in retrospect! Rambam, who did have a much higher ruach kodesh, in one of his Iggrot, says that if one lives under persecution, he must try to escape. I think it's iggeret hashmad. This proves the falsity of 20th century daas Torah.
Gordimer talks about Rommel's Raid on el Alamein as if it was revealed in the computer codes that Satmar had, before computers were even invented. No, it wasn't, and the Battle there was lost by Germany because they were outclassed and outgunned by the British and their allies. The Nazis, stragnely enough, were not following the military expertise of their genreals such as Rommel, but the madness of their leader who was giving orders on where and how to deploy their military.
Years ago in the heydey of the Jewish blogs there was a widely read essay called "Daas Hedyot vs Daas Torah" which demonstrated that, in every major criss that affected the Torah community in the last 200 years, Daas Torah had gotten it wrong and Daas Hedyot had gotten it right.
ReplyDeleteIn this crisis, that happened again. Those who listened to Daas Hedyot isolated themselves early. Those who listened to Daas Torah stayed in shuls and yeshivos even after "the Gedolim" banned any gatherings. And look what happened?
I read closely Rabbi Goldimer’s excellent article. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2020/05/for-some-reluctant-trump-voters.html
ReplyDeleteTrue: “The haredi rabbis, and most Jewish leaders in Europe and America, unfortunately were unaware of Hitler’s real plans for European and Middle Eastern Jewry until it was too late - blaming them for lack of timely information is foolish and cruel.”
I remember Rabbi Yitz Greenberg giving thoughtful lectures my days at Yeshiva University. He is a professor of history. I agree with Rabbi Goldimer:
“Greenberg has shown here that he does not represent Orthodox Judaism and that he is no friend of the Orthodox community. In the past, he has made declarations that God rescinded His Covenant with the Jewish People and that “Jesus is not a false messiah, merely a failed one,” and today has a leadership role in the Open Orthodox movement.”
No. God never rescinded His Covenant with the Jewish People.
I wonder if that article is still available
ReplyDeleteGordimer has a template for all his articles, he just rehashes it again and again. He is clearly talking rubbish here, and this is the same with most of the deck he blogs about.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, the gemara does make a number of rational statements, like the one quoted by Yitz Greenberg. It also says not to walk under a weak wall. This is the complete opposite of the hareidi outlook, that dictates people do things in a retrograde and atavistic fashion, dress in a way that they get targeted, take risks with parnassah by eschewing worldly trades (despite the Talmud make ng it a chiyuv to study a trade).
Regarding isolation, the hareidi leadership in England published a joker daas Torah (Chas v shalom) that minyanim stay open for under 70s, to spite the modern orthodox who closed all their shuls.
Holocaust - he's rehashing the same bad scholarship that rav Hutner published in the Jewish observer (after his sad hijack ordeal). The idea that the nazis had no antisemitic bones in their bodies until mufti Al husseini convinced Hitler to destroy the yidden (some decades after he had already published Mein Kampf! Shows what a brainwashed imbecile Gordimer is.
BTW, Rommel, who is the theoretical baddie in this story, never rounder up
If Ramban were alive today, he might also have the honor of being attacked by Gordimer.
ReplyDeleteRamban said that it's a mitzvah to establish a nation state in eretz Israel in every generation (no oaths).
He said that there is no basis in the Torah for the rabbis to enact new gexeiras, or that obliges us to follow their words.
In one commentary, he says that Ibn Ezra did worse than the Karaites (ibn Ezra wrote a polemical commentary against karaite methods and beliefs).
Could such great rabbi as the Ramban survive today in the hareidi world?
It depends on the context of the statement. Nathan, initially makes an everlasting covenant with king David that his kingdom will last forever. However, this has not been the case. At the end of 1st temple, the throne of David and his seed is extinguished. In 2nd temple era there is no King at all, until the hasmonean kings who were not davidic. Today, there is no king whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteIn one of the neviim (perhaps Jeremiah?) it says G-d will establish a new covenant with Israel. You can't have a new covenant without rescinding the old one.
False /failed is semantic. There is no failed moshiach, it's an oxymoron. Jesus failed to satisfy halachic criteria of moshiach, hence failed hence false.
sources?!
ReplyDeleteFalse _ unaware is false and misleading. A secular journalist named Binyamin Zeev Herzl zl, warned them already. He went from town to town to speak to Jewish communities and urged them to move to Israel. He was rebuffed.
ReplyDeleteHitler had already published mein kampf. Even during the war, visas were refused by hareidi leaders. The infamous letter regarding YU, and better do die physically than spiritually, proves that Gordimer is not only a liar, he is a rasha, and motzi Shem ra (a career motzi Shem ra).
So do you recommend listening to Daas Hedyot and relying on all the leniencies coming from public pressure instead of to Daas Torah who say to be more michmir than those with no concept of nor respect for Pikuach Nefesh as defined by the Torah, instead trampling over it at every opportunity with chilul Shabbos, eating nevelos utrefos etc.?!
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe from Ger was the first and almost only Rebbe to cancel his tish on Purim. He's receiving behind a glass window with a mic. The only source I can imagine is his health minister.
ReplyDeleteThank you for asking for clarifications, as I have to clarify what I stated above regarding Nachmanides.
ReplyDelete1) Regarding the Mitzvh of Yishuv E.Y. , I heard this in Rav Breitowitz' shiur https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ael7FMRdaM0
He says that Ramban classifies this mitzvah as having 4 components, one of which is to establish a Jewish homeland in EY .
2) I overstated what Ramban says on Devarim: The correct statement is here:
In a well-known comment, Rabbenu Moshe ben Nachman (Nachmanides
or Ramban) characterized the unique style of the book while at
the same time strenuously proclaiming that the difference in style--first-person instead of third-person narration-- does not express any basic change from the other Biblical books:
"The matter of Deuteronomy which is written in first-person narration is not a difficulty... for the book opens, "These are the
words which Moses addressed to all Israel" [in regular third-person naration] and the continuation of the book relates matters as if quoting Moses.... [Moses is like] a scribe copying from an ancient work...but it is true and clear ... that from Genesis until "displayed before all Israel"(Deut. 34:12, the
last verse of the Torah) came from the mouth of the Holy One
blessed be He to the ears of Moses (Nachmanides, from his introduction to the Torah)."
The position I attributed to him is actually found in Rashi and Midrash Tanchuma
Rashi comments there: "Moses spoke them in the name of G-d
and became a messenger to say," thus said the Holy One
blessed be He", for they are worded (in first person singular):
and I will give ... and I will place ... and I will send, referring
to the One who has the power to act; but in Mishneh Torah
it is written: The Lord will strike you... The Lord will afflict
you, Moses spoke these words on his own initiative - if you transgress
His commandments He will punish you".
https://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/devarim/charlap.html
Midrash Tanhuma also leads us to believe that Deuteronomy was
spoken by Moses on his own initiative (Tanhuma, Deut, 2):
These are the word which Moses spoke ... the people of Israel
said, yesterday you said I am not a man of words and now you speak
so much. Rabbi Yitzchak said, if you have a speech difficulty,
learn Torah and you will be cured.
No, but I recommend that Daas Torah, instead of handing down diktats from "above" listen to Daas Heydot and consider what it's saying when they're formulating their positions.
ReplyDeleteFor example, in this case when the decree was "Bittul Torah is worse than this virus", when the Health Minister refused to cancel Purim gatherings, well that was definitely Daas Torah being meikel with pikuach nefesh.
Pikuach Nefesh was left out of the book by adherents of the novel hareidi concept of Daas Torah, prior to and during the holocaust.
ReplyDeleteA major gadol debunked pikuach Nefesh for his own innovated concept _ it's better to die physically than to die spiritually in yeshiva university ( the Torah says you can /should violate Shabbes and kashrut to save lives. ) the letter is widely available.
you dont seem to know or acknowledge that daas Torah is typically based on consultations with askonim
ReplyDeletethe problem is that the advisors who are ignorant but are more aggressive are more likely to be influential
there is a video i posted of someone tellingr Rav Eliyashav that because he is the godol and he should therefore he should do X
Rav Dovid Feinstein told me he never heard his father invoke the a authority "since I am Daas Torah"
gedolim are regularly bullied by askonim and rich baal habatim
there are such stories even with RavShach, the Steipler and RavChaim
If what you write is true and is typical in daas Torah statements at least for the past 50 years, then it proves that daas Torah is a completely false notion, and contrary to Halacha. Since when is a judge , posek or Rav told what to do by the money? If so, they must remove themselves from their position.
ReplyDeleteIf "Daas Torah" is therefore derived from ignorant, aggressive, bullying askonim and wealthy men who function as nothing more than political hacks attempting to control gedolim, isn't that all the more reason "Daas Torah" should be completely ignored?
ReplyDeleteno it simply mans not to automatically reject the Daas Torah decree but to ask for additional information
ReplyDeleteWhich is what happens especially if it comes from Rav Chaim concerning medical issues or the issues of sexual abuse, reporting or cases like the Slifkin Affair or Making of a Gado
For example in the Gulf War the daas Hedyot was to return to Americal
I believe the Ramban listed settling the land as a mitzvah and crticized the Rambam for not doing so but settling the land is not the same as establishing a nation state. During the British Mandate the mitzvah of settling the land was fulfilled even though the accursed English were running the place.
ReplyDeleteI'm well aware of the old computer principle: GIGO: garbage in = garbage out.
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt that when Rav Chaim announced that bittul Torah is worse than the vrius, he was working with faulty information which resulted in a terrible decision.
In Eim Habanim Semeicha, Rav Teichtal, hy"d, states that the reason the Munkatcher Rebbe was so anti-Zionist is because he was surrounded by anti-Zionist yes-men and never heard a countering opinion. Had he been made aware of all the sources that the EHS was aware of, he might not have been so opposed.
But ultimately that's the problem. A good leader not only needs to be surrounded by people from various backgrounds with various opinions but also needs to be aware that he needs to be. If "the Gedolim", looking around the room, don't think "Hey, we need some diversity of opinion in here" then that falls on them.
But Nachmanides has 4 sub categories of the mitzva. Watch Rav breitowitz shiur
ReplyDeleteProblem is that most believers simply accept it as a decree coming from Sinai, and do not entertain any questions. One version I heard from a Hareidi Rabbi was that Daati Leumi is problematic since they don't accept "Daas Torah".
ReplyDeleteRav Isaac Bernstein ztl of London would say that there may be many Deot of Torah, but not a single Daat Torah.
One case you mentioned above, in the Making of gadol, Reb Nosson ztl spoke out against one of the instigators, who hurt him very badly. This whole shameful episode was not carried out correctly or according to halacha - Reb Nosson was not given the opportunity to defend himself as required. One of the askanim lied to RYSE ztl, saying he refused to attend.
it is analagous to science - if they are relying on their crooked askonim /faulty diagnostic kits, they will get the wrong results.
Ramban actually calls for *conquering the land, and that is what he declares as the positive mitzvah. So, no.
ReplyDeleteThere are rishonim who explain adequately the seeming "argument" here or how Rambam seemed to omit this mitzvah in the taryag (and inconsistently so compared to his other views/statements), because Rambam considered settling the land a "prerequisite" of sorts or category that is beyond and inapplicable to a listing of individual taryag mitzvot according to the guidelines he set for doing so. (And that explanation not only seems reasonable but restores the consistency on the subject in his writings and halachic rulings).
To my knowledge there is only one rishon who took the exclusion literally, and being able to cherry pick this implausible explanation enabled the weaving of tales by a certain chassidic Rebbe of satmar.
"video i posted of someone tellingr Rav Eliyashav that because he is the godol and he should therefore he should do X"
ReplyDeleteNever heard of such insolence and bizoyon of Torah!
What was his response?
https://youtu.be/KjVhuJhng88
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDeCl3w2wo0
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDeCl3w2wo0&list=LL&index=190&t=0s
ReplyDeletehttps://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/11/rav-eliashivhis-rabbinic-authority.html
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately the link no longer works
ReplyDeleteBut we notice that as soon as a new Gadol hador is crowned, they take some bold steps condemning issues that were previously tolerated. This happened with RYSE, eg sheitels, books etc, and also Rav Shach, eg Lubavitcher, steinsaltz etc. It is to assert their power in a new role and gain acceptance by the community leaders , donors and influences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmqz1vkNZJA
ReplyDeleteIt's very interesting, and in retrospect one sees Rav elyashiv's greatness, which is wasted on these little questions. The structure is wrong, there should be some formal Bet Din, where the gadol sits with several other dayanim. These people are not giving him a chance to respond, or to deliberate. A couple of guys in their 40s talking so fast. Also, he is not looking into any sefarim. This was the case with slifkin, nobody read the book, yet it was banned. It's a poor process for decision making. And he is being fed a story by these guys, who could be misrepresenting the matter. He should not have retired , and stayed stayed on at the rabbanut.
ReplyDeleteHistorical revision is an important part of Chareidi theology. Mistakes made by leaders who had "ruach hakodesh" must either be erased or history must be revised to show they were right. This is a new one though: Hitler, y"sh, planned a massacre of Jews in Israel so aliyah wouldn't have saved anybody. Wow. Never mind that only a minority of European Jews would've gone to Israel with the rest going to North America. I'm sure the next one will be that Hitler was building an a-bomb and with his V2 rockets he would've nuked Borough Park and Crown Heights so running to the US wouldn't have saved anyone.
ReplyDeleteIt's nice for a person to decide for himself that he would rather die physically than spiritually. His choice after making his personal cheshbon. But I don't think a leader has a moral right to look at his community (while standing in a train station about to leave for Israel with the help of the Zionists he spent decades attacking, for example) and make that choice for them.
ReplyDeleteThere is a radical Rav in Israel named David bar hayyim. He once characterized Hareidi rabbis as focussing on a single issue and making a big noise about it. There was an essay I read some time ago about the tragic course of events in Rav elchanan wasserman's final years. He also was doing this, saying that only daas Torah decisions must be made. So he mimicked the daas Torah strategy of gedolim during ww1.
ReplyDeleteBut ww 1 was a different Germany, it was not Nazi Germany, they had Jews in the army. It was a different kettle of fish.
It's like trying to fix a computer using tools for an old typewriter.
The revisionism that Gordie is bringing is a well known retort that I've heard over the past 25 years. I don't know where it originated, but may have been in the Rav hutner /observer debate. They claim retrospectively, that El alamain was a certain victory for the Germans, and that Israel would have been occupied. However, only by miracle did they lose to the British.
But nobody ever said this in regards to Zionism or aliyah. The reasons against Zionism were only a) 3 oaths, and b) the secular leadership and ideology. Nobody ever said its assur because of Rommel. No such prophecy was made.
Even in retrospect it's still a false prophecy, it didn't even happen in retrospect!
Rambam, who did have a much higher ruach kodesh, in one of his Iggrot, says that if one lives under persecution, he must try to escape. I think it's iggeret hashmad. This proves the falsity of 20th century daas Torah.
Gordimer talks about Rommel's Raid on el Alamein as if it was revealed in the computer codes that Satmar had, before computers were even invented.
ReplyDeleteNo, it wasn't, and the Battle there was lost by Germany because they were outclassed and outgunned by the British and their allies. The Nazis, stragnely enough, were not following the military expertise of their genreals such as Rommel, but the madness of their leader who was giving orders on where and how to deploy their military.