Friday, July 5, 2019

Rabbi Shmuel Tal - Update






Israel Reader































Attachments3:33 PM (46 minutes ago)























https://daattorah.blogspot.com/2019/05/top-rabbi-blows-lid-off-rabbinic.html
Top rabbi blows lid off rabbinic scandal, rocking national religious public

Update:
בית הדין הרבני שהוקם בעקבות הסערה סביב הרב שמואל טל קבע כי הרב טל יוכל להמשיך לכהן כראש ישיבת תורת החיים, אולם לא יוכל להעניק ייעוץ בנושאי זוגיות ומשפחה, ויצטרך להתרכז בלימוד תורה.

Translation:
The rabbinical court established in the wake of the storm surrounding Rabbi Shmuel Tal, ruled that Rabbi Tal could continue to serve as head of Yeshivat Torat Hayyim, but would not be able to provide counseling on matters pertaining to relationships and family matters, and will need to concentrate on studying Torah.

Please find attached a copy of the Beis Din's ruling.

Note:
The rabbinical court was appointed by Rabbi Asher Weiss, and consisted of Rabbis Michael Bleicher, Tzvi Gartner, and Ovadiah Yosef Toledano.
Without denying that there was problematic behavior on the part of Rabbi Tal, they were able to forensically determine that the were was never any pornography on his computer, and he never had any inappropriate physical contact with any woman.

IsraelReader

48 comments :

  1. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 4:46 PM

    Rav Weiss has negios bdavar, has previous positive relationship with tal, and us unfit to convene a bet din. This bd is corrupt, and its findings are worthless. Typical hypocrisy of bent haredi rabbonim.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I would watch my mouth, before shooting it off and badmouthing three distinguished and respected independent dayanim, especially without knowing them personally.
    (PS I happen to know one of them personally, and he's as straight as they come).

    ReplyDelete
  3. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 5:10 PM

    Corrupt bd. Witnesses nobbled by tal. https://www.kipa.co.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9-%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%98%D7%90-%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91-%D7%98%D7%9C-%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%98%D7%A8-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%AA%D7%95/

    This is well known perversion of din, when the subject is an important scholar. Protect the profession rather than practice true din.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 5:11 PM

    Who says your friends cannot be bribed?

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anybody can be bribed. This is why the Torah has a prohibition against it, and it applies to all people. But there are people whose are impeccable in their personal lives, and the suggestion that they would be less than truthful in their ruling borders on the ludicrous. Especially in light of the fact, that there are so many people involved who could refute their findings of they were untrue. So no sane person would attempt to take a bribe in such a case, and in this case you would need more than person to take a bribe.

    Also, did you even bother to read the BD's ruling? Did you notice that they didn't totally exonerate him? They just found him not guilty of some of the serious charges. Bribed? If that's the case, the one who allegedly bribed them should ask for a refund!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 5:35 PM

    A davar is also a bribe. Since prior to this case, Rav Weiss has praised Tal, then he has a prior connection, and is bribed.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 5:47 PM

    When witnesses are nobbled , and the judge is a friend of the accused....

    Same thing happened in Marcaz harav almost 20 years ago.victims of abuse were threatened by the yeshiva and druckman, to stop them from coming forward.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Rabbi Weiss didn't sit on the case.
    The dayanim were also totally independent of him.
    I also used the wrong word, "appointed". As per the letter from the BD, the were "asked" if they would sit on to hear this case.
    To bad mouth three talmidei chachamim, just because they destroyed your narrative about Rabbi Tal, is pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Stop being silly. Going from the judges being bribed to witnesses being "nobbled". What's next from you fertile imagination? The computer hackers, who searched his computer, were also bribed/nobbled?
    Do you trust anybody in your pathetic life?

    The three judges aren't known to be friends of the accused. They are chareidim, while R' Tal is from the National camp.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 6:07 PM

    Bad mouth? It's difficult to be objective in this case.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 6:10 PM

    Tal is no longer in the national camp. He's in shmuel auerbach camp. The story was in the link I posted. Kipa is a dati website, not a secular one. Rosh kollel was booted out because he gave eidus. Not my narrative. More like mafia /Al Capone narrative.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Yes. You bad mouthed three Talmidei Chachamim on pure conjecture.
    You should do teshuva for that.
    Especially in light of this week’s Torah portion (chutz la'aretz) Korach, where those who bad mouthed the Torah leaders of their generation had an ignominious ending.

    ReplyDelete
  13. When you bite the hand that feeds you, don't be surprised if you get fired by your boss.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Stupid move by the rosh kollel. When you bite the hand that feeds you, don't be surprised if you get fired by your boss.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 6:59 PM

    The case is very fishy. I said Rav Weiss had a previous relationship with Mr tal. He appointed the dayanim. I said that this has the din of bribed. Hence the psak is not reliable. I'm sure the dayanim are fine people.
    You joke about how a witness is nobbled. So you don't take legal procedure too seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 7:21 PM

    He's giving eidus, obviously he had seen some dirty behavior. Your problem is that you now are deciding the rosh kollel was lying!

    ReplyDelete
  17. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 7:27 PM

    That is power play, realpolitik. It's nothing to do with Torah, emet, or the injunction to do justice - Tdezek, tzedek tirdof.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 7:28 PM

    It's done very professionally, they left a couple of minor charges to make it look un-kangaroo like. He's still the rosh, but the kangaroo has the zanav.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 7:45 PM

    You must be back in America, good Shabbes.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 9:02 PM

    They checked the cookies on his computer, but these can very easily be deleted. If I delete my browsing history, and the cookies, there will be no link left on my computer that I visited this website.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 5, 2019 at 9:16 PM

    Their conclusion contradicts what was reported by R' Eliyahu


    https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/661471


    The BD was not there to find the truth, just to minimise the chillul Hashem.

    It is clear that this man is a sabbatean, enticing married women to leave tehir husbands and marry him - through his alleged holy spirit (ie he is a delusional man, like Nathan of gaza).

    This reminds me of several other piskei din -


    the 100 Rabbanim that declared Shabetai Zvi to be Moshiach
    the 100 Rabbanim who declared R' Schneersohn to be Moshiach.

    ReplyDelete
  22. “Rabbi Shmuel Tal - Update”
    IsraelReader replies to Kalonymus Anonymus
    “Yes. You bad mouthed three Talmidei Chachamim on pure conjecture.You should do teshuva for that. Especially in light of this week’s Torah portion, Korach (chutz la'aretz), where those who bad mouthed the Torah leaders of their generation had an ignominious ending.”
    Conjecture = an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. "conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied" synonyms: guess, speculation, surmise, fancy, notion, belief, suspicion, presumption, assumption, theory, hypothesis, postulation, supposition
    Bravo to IR. I agree with IR comments on Rabbi Tal. I’m against extremes of feminism in Agunah International and ORA. The Rabbi Rackman bet din is a Jewish bet din. In SCOTUS 18-9390 and NYS COA 649 7/15/2019 I’m trying to get SCOTUS and the NYS COA to accept my case for review. A proper review of my case will end the conjecture: Is the 1995 Rigler Order of Separation a forgery?. KA and Berel’s are trolls.
    Troll = In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic message

    ReplyDelete
  23. “Top rabbi blows lid off rabbinic scandal, rocking national religious public”
    No. “In consultations with Rabbi Asher Weiss — a prominent ultra-Orthodox rabbi whose rulings have been accepted by members in the national religious camp as well — Eliyahu said that it was decided that a special rabbinic court be assembled in order to rule on the allegations made against Tal.”
    Bravo to Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu. Interesting, Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu is bothered by Rabbi Tal’s claim to have contact with the holy spirit. Balaam had contact with the holy spirit, over and over, in parshat בלק, e.g.
    “That night God came to Balaam and said to him, If these men have come to invite you, you may go with them. But whatever I command you, that you shall do.” (Numbers 22:20).
    I very much like Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu letter dealing with Rabbi Tal. God judges the world and runs the world as He sees fit. Balaam and Balak were both wicked, according to חז"ל:
    Sanhedrin 105a
    “ “The elders of Moab and the elders of Midian, versed in divination [lit. with divination in their power (hand)], set out. They came to Balaam and gave him Balak’s message”(Numbers 22:7). A Tanna taught: There was never peace between Midian and Moab. The matter may be compared to two dogs in one kernel which were always enraged at each other. Then a wolf attacked one, whereupon the other said, If I do not help him, he will kill him to-day, and attack me to-morrow; so they both went and killed the wolf. R. Papa observed: Thus people say, The weasel and cat [when at peace with each other] had a feast on the fat of the luckless.”

    ReplyDelete
  24. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 12:58 AM

    Gerald , why are you using this forum for personal vendettas against the tROTW (the rest of the world)? Susan,. scotus, Judge x,y, and z?


    I maintain that the psak din was one of expedience, since they cannot afford yet another big Rosh Yeshiva being demoted, after Tropppergate, Elon, Sheinberg, Berland, Netiv meir etc.



    Tal is a Sabbatean, just like berland, why is he allowed to keep the status of RY? It is a joke.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 1:02 AM

    the Sabbatean "RY" Tal tells married woman to divorce his wife, and marry him in order to produce the Moshiach! This he heard from schizophrenic delusions, and he remains a R'Y?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Kalonymus Anonymus says "Gerald , why are you using this forum for personal vendettas against the tROTW (the rest of the world)? Susan,. scotus, Judge x,y, and z? I maintain that the psak din was one of expedience, since they cannot afford yet another big Rosh Yeshiva being demoted, after Tropppergate, Elon, Sheinberg, Berland, Netiv meir etc. Tal is a Sabbatean, just like berland , why is he allowed to keep the status of RY? It is a joke.”
    No. I’m a poor man trying to get back my pension stolen from me. Yes, my new SCOTUS and new NYS COA has perjury its focus. The previous focus that Judge Prus blocked me from seeing the critical document, the forged 1995 Rigler order of separation---failed. Susan argued that she doesn’t have to show me any documents, however critical. Is that fair?
    “Why are times for judgment not reserved by Shaddai? Even those close to Him cannot foresee His actions [lit. days] ימיו. People remove boundary-stones; They carry off גזלו flocks and pasture them; They lead away the donkeys of the fatherless, And seize the widow’s bull as a pledge; They chase the needy off the roads; All the poor of the land are forced into hiding” (Job 24:1-4).
    “All my bones shall say, Lord, who is like You? You save the poor from one stronger than he, the poor and needy from his despoiler.” (Psalms 35:10).
    תהלים פרק לה פסוק י
    כָּל עַצְמוֹתַי תֹּאמַרְנָה יְקֹוָק מִי כָמוֹךָ מַצִּיל עָנִי מֵחָזָק מִמֶּנּוּ וְעָנִי וְאֶבְיוֹן מִגֹּזְלוֹ
    מלבי"ם תהלים פרק לה פסוק י
    ונגד הצלת הממון יאמרו שהוא מציל עני ואביון מגוזלו:
    KA, why are you attacking Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu? Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu is up against a hostile civil court system in Israel. So what the civil court ruled Rabbi Tal slandered the lady and must pay 500,000 NIS? What’s the latest on the ridiculous Horowitz slander case?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 1:20 PM

    No, I'm supporting Rav shmuel Eliyahu, he already advised the Bd about the risks and dangers, and he personally wanted Tal to be removed as rosh yeshiva.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Rav Shmuel Eliyahu agreed the the proposed Beis Din, so he'll have to accept their ruling.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Still in Israel. Sunset in Jerusalem was 7:53 PM.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I don't know what the rosh kollel testified. Still a stupid move to testify against your employer, especially if there's allegedly more than enough witnesses to establish the facts.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 3:49 PM

    that he has to accept it and that it seems to be somewhat partial are not mutually exclusive.
    This is very much like a halachic oxymoron - Tal is not fit to talk to the kehilla, is a danger to women, but is still fit to be a rosh yeshiva!

    ReplyDelete
  32. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 3:52 PM

    Is the RY the actual employer of the Rosh Kollel? Sorry, I don't know the business side of how yeshivas operate.
    "stupid"? Maybe he is tam, and maybe he didn't realise how powerful the Sabbateans are. I am not suggesting Freemasonry or funny handshakes, but this is the real Sabbatean legacy.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 5:41 PM

    " more than enough witnesses to establish the facts."
    This action was interpreted as nobbling other witnesses from testifying against Tal. The detail is lost on your simplistic little world.
    Also, note that Tal had the supreme arrogance to state he had been justified, ignoring the fact that he had been banned from all communal roles and as giving advice or mentoring to anyone. Further evidence of his narcissistic tendencies.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Who fundraises for this yeshiva?
    Almost always the RY (and maybe one or two others.)
    Who are the major donors?
    Inependent donors, or former talmidim?
    Will they continue donating?
    That's what this din Torah is about.
    And that's what will decide if Rav Tal stays as RY. The donors.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I never said that he was a saint, or that he is a perfect person, and the Beis Din accentuated his flaws in their ruling.


    Rabbi Tal is entitled to put a spin on the BD's ruling, and choose to focus on the positive aspects of it.

    However you accused him of having orgies with married women,
    http://disq.us/p/22vxhk5 and this was found to be totally untrue. Admit that you erred in your accusations, and you owe him an apology.

    You also have the arrogance to state that has been "banned from all communal roles and as giving advice or mentoring to anyone". All that is factually untrue, as is evidenced by the BD's ruling which was posted.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 10:34 PM

    Yes, I retract that allegation, it's how I understood the original allegations, and these have not been evidenced. Remember, that chazal interpret some stories in the Tenach where people are said to commit adultery _ as being as if they did, for their level, ie they had inappropriate behavior.
    I can't read the psak on my treif phone, I need to go back to the computer.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 10:45 PM

    The makor rishon article gives some facts which the BD evaded.
    Rav Weiss was a friend of and had financial dealings with rabbi tal. End of discussion / his bet din is Pasul.
    There were witnesses who had seen illicit photograph s on tal's computer. OK, he deleted them afterwards.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 10:51 PM

    The Bd , in as far as Rav Weiss shlita was the Nasi. Has no validity, as he has multiple personal and financial connections with mr Tal.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 11:11 PM

    IR: "You also have the arrogance to state that.."
    If you look on page 3/3 of the Psak, item Beth: He is to refrain from all public (communal) affairs, and from giving persoanl advice eg personal, health, relationships etc.



    item Gimmel: he has accepted to not have any discussions or meetings with women whatsoever.



    Crow isn't kosher, so you can perhaps eat chicken instead.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Since I keep kosher, I'm always careful that I shouldn't need to eat crow.
    Before I typed what I did, I carefully read the Psak, and I stand by what I said.
    I repeat:
    "You also have the arrogance to state that has been "banned from all communal roles and as giving advice or mentoring to anyone".
    Not my problem if you're not fluent in Hebrew.
    Item 1. says that he can teach Torah as head of the yeshiva and HEAD OF THE COMMUNITY he founded. That is a communal role!
    Item 2. He is to refrain from public leadership, counseling on matters pertaining to relationships, family matters, and health. He is still allowed to advise and mentor on other matters, and is allowed to remain a public figure.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Better do Teshuva before it's too late.
    Still casting aspersions on FOUR major Talmidei Chachamim.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 7, 2019 at 11:46 PM

    Crowing aside, you've misunderstood both a) and b, and how they are connected. A) States that he can continue teaching Torah to his Yeshiva and community that he founded, namely Written Torah, Talmud, halacha etc. The audience, is his community. However, the subjects he can talk about are only torah, i.e. textual learning.
    This is reiterated in b) where it explicitly states that the matters he is permitted to talk about are Torah and ONLY Torah ( textual based lessons), and noting else, i.e. not communal matters. A communal matter can be anything that people go to someone for advice on, i.e. where they might be able to see a secular therapist, doctor, chiropractor etc.

    Sorry, the Crows in Israel are called "hooded crows", don't allow yourself to be hoodwinked by what you want to see.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 8, 2019 at 12:00 AM

    I'm not denying that Rav Weiss is a major TH - that doesn't give him immunity from dealing with someone he is both personally and financially connected with. The other 3, I have never heard before, and perhaps they are not influence, we do not know. But I don't think they can sit in BD which is dealing with a friend of the Nasi. You know that story in Chazal, when a Talmid chacham was sitting in judgement, and one of the subjects placed a gift in his coat pocket in the cloakroom....

    ReplyDelete
  44. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 8, 2019 at 12:07 AM

    A major Kabbalist several years ago said that the way to distinguish between an authentic kabbalist and a fake one is how they relate to women. The authentic ones will have no closeness with women at all.

    if these behaviours had not been exposed, then I would be supporting Tal, Sheinberg, Elon etc, and saying look, the RZ world has great Gedolim who aren't given recognition. Sadly, they are not genuine leaders or gedolim. they may be very highly educated, but they do not have the spiritual levels to be real torah leaders.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Interesting how you quote and invoke Kabbalists when it suits you, and curse them out when it doesn't.
    Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury,
    Raise the double standard.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 8, 2019 at 1:06 AM

    If even the major Kabbalists give direction on whom we can and cannot trust, then it certainly applies in this case. My own approach to mysticism is not on trial here, can leave it for another day.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 8, 2019 at 1:10 AM

    IR: "It's quite interesting, how you quote and invoke Kabbalists when it suits you, and curse them out when it doesn't."


    KA: it's quite interesting how Ultra_orthodox quote and invoke Rambam when it suits them, and well, ignore or reject him when it doesn't.


    I suppose we are all a bit guilty of this - but nothing wrong with quoting from a source one does not completely agree with. Quoting form someone does not commit us to accept everything else they say.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Kalonymus AnonymusJuly 8, 2019 at 1:18 AM

    IR says: "He is still allowed to advise and mentor on other matters, and is allowed to remain a public figure."


    This is false - he can only teach Torah and Yiras Shomoyim. He is to refrain from all other public / communal matters.

    ReplyDelete

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