update:After talking with people with connections to chinuch in Israel, it is clear that the school is considered a cult and is not an accepted part of Orthodox education. The facts presented by the newpapers was confirmed as accurate.ynet Beleaguered families of women who follow rabbi Aharon Ramati find their daughters trapped inside a seminary where they live in squalid conditions. Since all participants are adults, the state currently has little power to intervene
One person who joined the fight in helping the families in their struggle against the seminaryis MK Aliza Lavie (Yesh Atid). She met with parents and appealed to the Ministry of Health to examine the conditions in which the daughters live .
"From the moment I discovered what was going on at the Be’er Miriam (“Miriam’s Well”) seminary headed by Rabbi Aharon Ramati, who attracts many young women, I met many family members and I became aware of the size of the phenomenon," said MK Lavie. "I joined the struggle with the families who have daughters who study there."
"We brought about an investigation and the closure of the place, but unfortunately the activity has recently been started anew in another location. The sad thing is that years ago the senior rabbis - the late Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Shalom Elyashiv - called it a 'dangerous cult' and stated that 'the daughters of Israel must not study with him or go to his location, his branches, or any place under his instruction,' and called for the immediate closure of the institution. "
The Ramati affair exploded a year ago, after many parents filed complaints which suggested Ramati was running a cult. All those girls who came to his seminary came to learn with him, lost touch with families, and became more and more extreme. After examining what was going on, it was revealed that the girls live in a neglected apartment under austere and difficult conditions.
After receiving evidence of the cult, the Jerusalem Police raided Ramati’s apartment and seized computers and documents. Health Ministry officials arrived as well, confiscating edibles that were improperly stored. Ramati himself was arrested and spent several days in custody, and then released on house arrest, but not indicted. [...]
וכן הוא אומר ערום ראה רעה ונסתר ופתיים עברו ונענשו.. וכן הוא אומר הצל לקוחים למות ומטים להרג אם תחשוך כי תאמר הן לא ידענו זה הלא בוחן לבות הוא יבין ונוצר נפשך הוא ידע והשיב לאדם כפעלו
ReplyDeleteI've been following this story for a long time, and I haven't found any indication of any wrongdoing by Rabbi Ramati. So why is this being posted here?
ReplyDeleteIt's very convenient for the media and the irreligious families to label a
baalas teshuva seminary a "cult". It serves as a tool to stigmatize and
delegitimize a legitimate school.
Are we to buy into the Kool-Aid that Ynet [=Lie-net] wants us to drink?
I can understand the frustration of the families with the fact that
their daughters have rejected the lifestyle that their parents sought to
raise them in. But that doesn't make it problematic from a Daas Torah
perspective.
Is every yeshiva with a charismatic leader going to be slated for closing, because it's a "cult"?
I can just see the comments coming here. There will be people out there who are going to start coming out of the woodwork telling us about how this BT yeshiva is a cult, and how that yeshiva is cult-like.
Sorry, I'm not a hater. Different strokes for different folks. If a school isn't your cup of tea, don't go there, and don't send your kids there. But if it works for someone else, an adult who can make his own decisions, don't go bashing his/her yeshiva!
would you be interested in writing a guest post on the matter?
ReplyDeleteHow do you explain what the article claims in the names of Rabbis Yosef and Elyashev - are you saying they never made any such statements or were they misinformed? If the latter, don't you think real fact checking is important before making such a strong statement?
ReplyDeleteIn this case, I don't have what to add. I've made my point.
ReplyDeleteIf anybody has pity on the girls living in less than ideal living
conditions, he can donate a few $$$ to get them better quarters.
If a seminary head is acting inappropriately with his students
(male/female) I'd be the first to call him out for it. In this case, I
haven't found any such claim. You posted the Lie-net article, so it must
resonate with you. Why?
I'll leave the writing about the sociological aspects of the BT yeshiva phenomenon, to our friendly RaP(per). I'm sure he'd love to write about his favorite topic (Chaim Berlin). For an appetizer, he'll tell us about Rabbi Freifeld an his yeshiva. An analysis of Ohr Somayach and Aish Hatorah will be for dessert.
Sorry, it's not my cup of tea to bash people who are trying to be mekarev others.
"All those girls who came to his seminary came to learn with him, lost touch with families, and became more and more extreme."
ReplyDeleteSeminaries do not make students lose touch with families. I was in a seminary for baalei teshuva located in an american haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem for 1 year and everything was NORMAL. Girls came in, learned, many got married, we always had good food, the Rebbetzins were always supportive of us and teaching us how to be "frum and normal" and we had an amazing time.
The fact that a man is running a seminary sounds weird to me, because that's not my experience. Where are the rebbetzins or female teachers of this place?
Isolation. Living in degrading conditions. Cutting family ties. Becoming "extreme" to the point of R. Elyashiv z"l calling it dangerous? It's all far away as a girls seminary should be run. This is a cult or in the best scenario, irresponsible kiruv.
"Kiruv, when done immorally, encourages a break from one’s family and friends who are not observant, pushes the student to make quick changes in observance, uses Bible codes and flawed philosophical logic with those who cannot detect the difference, uses alcohol to attract students, offers theological certainty, suggests that if one is religious they will be successful in all while dismissing the complexities of all human relationships and struggles, and promises a life of bliss if one merely chooses the true path."
http://www.jewishjournal.com/socialjusticerav/item/dishonest_kiruv_the_building_of_responsible_jewish_outreach_movements
Rejecting the 'lifestyle' of the parents is one thing, rejecting the PARENTS is another thing. It seems there are a LOT of parents involved with this single "seminary". It's not a normal situation.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if his "teshuva techniques" are similar to a well known Youtube celebrity rabbi who enjoys saying scary things in order to force his "Jim Jones" view of teshuva on others ... "follow my words or your soul will disappear".
How this seminar different then any other? Howw about Hadar which discourages and even down right forbids at times visiting less relegious relatives?
ReplyDeleteAnd unless there are two Beir Miriam's, or things drastically changed over the last decade and change, I was under the impression that Beir Miriam was a more 'open minded' / accepting , not extreme type of seminary.....
It's easy to say a Gadol who is no longer living said something. I'd like to see a quote.
ReplyDeleteI know girls who are far from.extreme who went there.
Something seems off...
But what do I know?
When "Lie-net" starts invoking Reb Elyashev, then you can be assured that the article is rigged.
ReplyDeleteWho says that he ever said anything on the subject? Did he write a letter to that effect? What was the background that he was told? המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. Put your information on the table.
You can be rest assured (חזקת רשעות) that Ramati's enemies tried to come up with something that they could nail him on. As hard as they tried, the ONLY thing that they came up after the "big raid" was some spoiled food in the refrigerator. That gives me confidence to assert that there's no fire and no smoke, just hate and more hate.
As they say here in Israel: ההר הוליד עכבר. In Yiddish: גארנישט מיט נישט. In other words, a non-story.
not aware of any other seminary that the following has been said.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/06/court-bars-rabbi-aaron-ramati-accused.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/05/authorities-raid-cult-womens-seminary.html
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/230847/beis-din-orders-aaron-ramati-to-leave-yerushalayim.html
http://www.bhol.co.il/article_en.aspx?id=51775
This isn't the Beer Miriam for American girls. This is a different school, geared for Israeli baalos teshuva.
ReplyDeleteYou can disagree about the proper way to run a school. But Rabbi Ramati has the right to run his school the way he sees fit, so long as he doesn't break Torah law.
ReplyDeleteApparently the major rabbonim disagree with you
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bholworld.com/Article.aspx?id=27216
How does this seminary make money? Presumably, these young (but not that young) ladies arecnot independently wealthy. Charisma mightget students, but its a different charisma to pay for (cheap) dorms, classe, guest speakers, teachers,staff, ec.
ReplyDeleteYou have not provided any information against the Seminary. It may be different to yours but this means very little. It is clear that main stream Askanim do not like the institution but this too does not mean much.
ReplyDeleteAt this point we are entitled to hear the real reasons why this Seminary should be closed. The Heter of T.E. was issued by Gedolim but when the information came out it turned out to be garbage. I sense that facts are manipulated regarding the seminary.
So what if Rabbi Mutzafi disagreed with Rabbi Ramati five years ago?
ReplyDeleteMost of these links repeat the refrain "cult, cult, cult". As far as I'm concerned, the charges of being a "cult" can be leveled on many yeshivos, especially baalei teshuva yeshivos. But I have no problem with it, because the word is used indiscriminately, and "cult" is all relative to those invoking it.
ReplyDeleteAfter the infamous arrest, the authorities have had NINE months already in which to file an indictment. Nada. There's nothing that they can wrong him for.
"Simche" agrees with me:
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/05/authorities-raid-cult-womens-seminary.html
"I have yet to come across any evidence that anything that is taking place in that institution is illegal or even bad in any way.
"The fact the the institution is not mainstream does not mean that it is not a good place. Considering the sort of homes where some people are growing up, this kind of place may be crucial for them to have a chance in life".
We don't need to defend his style or method of education. The issue here is he doing inappropriate with the girls. So far no one has found any problem with him.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't your average American BT seminary for girls, who are 6,000 miles away from their parents, boyfriends, and other "distractions". These are secular Israeli girls, who need their space, to be able to explore the Torah, without their parents pressuring them to come home or entice them to leave the school. So it's not fair to compare the two situations, or the appropriate method of dealing with this type of student.
ReplyDeleteClear thinking, Simche. Your position is consistent with that of nine months ago. You were the only one who spoke up to defend Rabbi Ramati. Kol Hakavod!
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/05/authorities-raid-cult-womens-seminary.html
The 4 seminaries I was in contact with had nothing to do with this one...Shearim, Nevei Yerushayim, Midreshet Rachel and Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion... all looked normal there and they had tons of BTs.
ReplyDeleteIsrael has a program called MASA, so students of a certain age can apply and the government pay a percentage (of full) of their studies. MASA is valid for all areas of learning, not only religious.
Hellooo... letting girls eating bad food and living in degrading conditions is against Torah law. Also, approving SINGLE girls to call make restraining orders against the MOTHER is against Torah law as well.
ReplyDeleteThis is a cult.
Read the article in full and you'll find some.
ReplyDeleteStudents up to a certain age can apply to MASA: http://www.masaisrael.org/jewish-studies
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's the trick here.
I was confusing this with the American seminaris. Please disregard my comments
ReplyDeleteIf you want to take up a collection with some gevirim to help with their living conditions, I'm sure they will welcome the donation.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that they intentionally fed the girls bad food. It's just that they found some old in the refrigerator, with some out of date food. Big deal. In my house we also sometimes have some old food there. Are you going to call the health department on me?
As to taking out restraining orders against parents, I have to break this to you. If single girls, who are legal adults, are trying to improve in their Judaism, and their secular parents try to interfere, there is no legal or halachic impediment to them seeking restraining orders against these parents, provided that this is the only way to get them off their back. I will explain.
Legal - because they are adults, and they have the right to choose the life they desire to live.
Halachic - because when it to comes to parents interfering in the religious matters of their children, then keeping the Torah trumps honoring your parents. See Shulchan Aruch (YD 240:15)
אמר לו אביו לעבור על דברי תורה, בין מצות עשה בין מצות לא תעשה, ואפילו מצוה של דבריהם, לא ישמע לו.
No cult detected here. Non Story.
The students seem to be happy there. Different strokes for different folks. If a school isn't your cup of tea, don't go there, and don't send your kids there.
ReplyDeleteWhat a relief to know that since a girl is Israeli it's ok for her to live under such sick conditions... I was mistaken the whole time... look at that... thank you for enlightening me! Spoiled North American girls who want to learn Torah in a healthy environment, shame on you all!!! If I were younger, I'd run to a dirty seminary right now and do the right thing! All that time I lived in a healthy sem environment... had I only knew... Living in a "neglected apartment under austere and difficult conditions" and eating expired food is the way to go! Is it still time for me to cut all contact with my family or should I call the police against my own mother only after I register there?
ReplyDeleteThis article is not about a seminary for girls from outside of Israel, so Massa is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that you feel that your seminary experience in Israel was positive (Were your parents as pleased as you were about all the frummy things you learned in seminary?)
ReplyDeleteThese girls also seem to feel that they're being helped there. So everybody should be happy. Oops, we forgot about the secular parents. Well, we can't make everybody happy, so we try to do what we could, and let the chips fall as they may.
If you want to send the girls a few sheqels, to help them with their basic needs, I'm sure that can be worked out.
These are secular Israeli girls? The mother was speaking to the daughter in Yiddish! Secular Israelis do not speak Yiddish.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't trust YNet for the weather, and I certainly won't trust a word in this report for this secular Zionist anti-religious rag.
ReplyDeleteThe mother in the article was speaking yidish... was she really a secular mother?
ReplyDeleteMy parents didn't take my choice easily, however I was instructed by my teachers to follow the Torah hashkafa on family, which does not include calling the police and putting a restraining order against a concerned crying mother.
That's why people call it Lie-Net.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what you're referring to. Link please?
ReplyDeletefor the weather? why, do you think they falsify that as well, as part of an anti-Torah conspiracy?
ReplyDeleteIf you travel to eretz Hakodesh, to you go by Jordan Airlines, and then cross the border from Jordan?
You didn't read the article, bro. They lived " in a neglected apartment under austere and difficult conditions." This does not mean they lived just in a messy home...
ReplyDeleteYour vision of family has nothing to do with what Torah teaches.
Parents interfering in kids religious life is one thing.
Parents trying to save single daughters " in a neglected apartment under austere and difficult conditions." is another thing.
Let the Israeli girls be treated as well as the American girls who go to the same "brand name" seminary and we talk. Keep thinking like that and soon enough you'll talk like that Youtube celebrity rabbi who was comparing women to cows...
He is teaching them to cut ties with parents and making them accept their miserable living conditions as the 'new normal way of learning'.
ReplyDeleteWhat really makes me sad in this story is not exactly the girls... it's to think the kind of home they'll create and expose their kids to.
By accepting such misery as normal, they're likely to accept a future abusive husband as normal... and put their children through unhealthy living conditions as it was a normal thing too.
Kiruv when done irresponsibly can leave serious scars.
I have done much more research than that.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you can answer why facts are not publicized?
""approving SINGLE girls to call make restraining orders against the MOTHER is against Torah law as well."
ReplyDeleteIt depends what is the basis
"BAD food"
How bad? worse than American fast food? Seriously do you know what they eat?
These are adults and they can bring their own food. Some of them even have a job.
you are ignorning the fact that the same report was in Haaretz, Maariv, Jersusalem Post, Behedrei Charedim, Times of Israel and other media.
ReplyDeleteI would trust the weather in all of the above!
ReplyDeleteIt's in the YNet article linked in the post.
ReplyDeleteI was exaggerating a point. Maybe for the weather I'd trust them. But if they said it was raining I'd definitely look out the window to double check. For anything else is assume they're reporting the opposite of the truth.
ReplyDeleteHaaretz, Maariv, Jersusalem Post, and Times of Israel are no better than YNet. Behedrei Charedim I wouldn't either trust by default.
ReplyDeleteThey lived "in a neglected apartment under austere and difficult conditions."
ReplyDeleteDefend this guy as much as you like, the point is that whatever he does is not done in the "foreigner version" of the same seminary, but in a way inferior condition.
Anyhow, I can't do nothing for these girls but grieve for their future.
Goodness... bring food from where exactly if they live in the neglected apartment and cut ties with their families?
ReplyDeleteAmerican fast food? Are you for real? The article mentions 'food improperly stored', which means... probably expired and/or spoiled.
It's all Sefardi girls there.
ReplyDeleteNo in speaks Yiddish. It's typical secular reporting where they invent things based on their stereotypes of religious Jews.
Ramati is a tzaddik.
The parents of the BT's have been waging a war against him for years because he exposes their daughters to a Torah way of life.
The story with Rav Elyashiv was way overblown, and he was lied to by a more powerful, competing BT organization.
This should come as no surprise to the savvy readers of this blog.
The reason that the seminary is in poor physical condition is because no one pays tuition, and he has no funding.
The students are sincere and they are there to learn, and they are willing to live at a lower physical standard while increasing their spiritual living standard.
After the whole kaminetzky gangster dealings, no one should be shocked at the way frum power players behave.
The same as the goyish ones, just in a more naive system, with more gullible lay people.
They tried to have Ramati prosecuted many times, and NOTHING ever stuck.
Moe Ginsburg's gut feeling was right.
Don't believe everything (anything) you tred.
I am surprised that you trust media outlets just because many of them say the same thing.
ReplyDeleteThis seminary does not look like a cult. It is 'not a main stream' institution and but that is not the same thing.
On the contrary, there are many cults which are regarded as 'main stream' and for that they are ignored.
These people don't have money. They live like poor people. perhaps you want to explain what is wrong with them/him.
ReplyDeleteThe Gemara teaches us (Sanhedrin 26a) that
ReplyDeleteקשר רשעים אינו מן המנין. In other words, a majority created by an association of wicked people does not count.
The secular media outlets that you list, are agenda driven, with an anti religion bias. You could even cite 50 such sites, the Torah teaches us to remain unimpressed. The number remains ZERO. קשר רשעים אינו מן המנין.
The only ostensibly "chareidi" site, Behedrei Charedim, has not provided any facts about alleged wrongdoing. Delegitimization, in the form of branding the school as a "cult", is a poor substitute for facts. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me". Facts please, not insulting labels
You have a problem with the existence of a letter from Rav Eliashiv and others. Or are you claiming that since they got their information from secular media (c.v.) they also don't count.
ReplyDeleteWhy not start with the simple question. How is this seminary viewed in the frum world?
What letter from Rav Eliashev? None have been published. All we have is claims of the existence of such a letter from a host of anti-religious rags.
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen any letter from Rav Elyashev.
ReplyDeleteHow is this seminary viewed in the frum world? I have no clue. I live in Israel, and never heard of the place, until the propaganda machine started knocking it.
If I'm to judge by the links you've posted, then I would say, "mud". If you look at Youtube videos of satisfied families, I would say, "gold".
The point is, that we haven't been given "facts", just "labels". So I remain unimpressed by vague allegations.
Da'as,from the Chofetz Chaim alone saying that secular newspapers (or perhaps any for that matter, but especially secular,)are not to be believed al pi halacha, then I might tend to agree with Israel Reader. .....
ReplyDelete"Torah to the soul is like water to the ground, it causes whatever is sown to grow - whether it be (plants producing) an elixir of life or (poisonous plants producing) a death potion. So too, the torah causes to grow what is in the heart of a person. If his heart is good, his yira will grow otherwise the opposite will grow."
ReplyDelete(from Even Shelema Chapter1:)
Meaning... this seminary could mentally abuse these girls using the "for the sake of Torah" excuse or it could choose to teach them using great lenghts of respect and digninity saying they're doing for the sake of Torah.
" If one's heart is evil, Torah will increase his wickedness (e.g. laziness, cruelty, dishonesty or bitterness). Torah increases whatever is naturally in you and you must consciously make strong and ongoing effort to smash the inner bad and to develop the inner good." (don't know who wrote it, but it's true)
Torah can be used by all sort of people in all sort of ways...
by approving a girl to get a restraining order against her own mother is a veeeeeeeeeery wrong way of using Torah and halacha to justify bad choices.
ReplyDeleteYour parents didn't come knocking on the door of your seminary, seeking to forcibly remove you from the Torah school of your choice.
ReplyDeleteSpiritual פיקוח נפש trumps honoring parents who try to steer their children away from Torah.
ReplyDeleteAnd if my parents had come, I would have talked to them. Once. Twice. Three times. Four times. As many times as possible to make peace for the sake of Torah.
ReplyDeleteIf these girls parents raised them in a loving and healthy environment, they should respect them. Up to the day they got into this "sem", it was the parents who raised, protected them and paid for all their bills.
Hakarat hatov and patience instead of restraining orders, which is a huge hilul Hashem done by a selfish girl.
'pay my bills and shup up', 'get old and i will abandon you in a nursing home without looking back', 'i'll leave you in a hospital during chagim, just to don't have to deal with you'... we see a lot of that nowadays... selfish children who forget what the parents did for them.
I'd love to see a major investigation on this "seminary" and who are exactly the parents involved.
Spiritual pikuach nefesh starts by taking children out of a "neglected apartment under austere and difficult conditions" and putting them in a respectable environment where they can develop spiritual and mental health.
ReplyDelete"Torah increases whatever is naturally in you" be it cruelty by calling a restraining order against a mother (a MOTHER!!!!) or kibbud av v'eim.
I agree that a restraining order against a parent is a severe tool to have to use, but posit that it can be used in extreme cases, when all else fails. One might argue, and say that it should never be used. But we can agree to disagree.
ReplyDeleteThat is true as a principal but considering the type of cases that he has to deal with then I would not be surprised that it may be justified
ReplyDeleteYes.
ReplyDeleteI will wait for another article about this situation. But even though, a parent who is not and was never abusive must be treated with utmost chessed and compassion.
ReplyDeleteif a wife can (supposedly. Halachically) get a restraining against a husband for no reason, why can't she get one against a parent?
ReplyDeleteFunny. Cults usually have ex-members that dish on the leader -- like in the other seminary scandal.
ReplyDeleteO O
ReplyDeleteV
??
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah:
ReplyDelete"update: After talking with people with connections to chinuch in Israel, it is
clear that the school is considered a cult and is not an accepted part
of Orthodox education. The facts presented by the newpapers was
confirmed as accurate".
IsraelReader:
How do you define cult? Which "facts" were presented by the newspapers?
I believe in denial. I believe in denying vague rumors of "cultism". Do you have hard facts to share with us? How do you define a "cult"?
ReplyDeleteThis has been up for nearly a week, and with all the mudslinging, I've yet to see any facts, to be convinced that I should demonize Rabbi Ramati. Absolutely no case has been presented in the courtroom of the mind. The jury isn't even out for deliberation. The case hasn't even started yet!
Hi Joe,
ReplyDeleteWatch out, or you'll soon be accused by RaP of beeing in "denial".
this discussion is getting rather ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteThe newspaper reported facts which you questioned. I found out that the descriptions given in the various newspaper articles were not distorted or lies as you had claimed - but in fact represented facts as is seen also from the point of view of the frum community - in particular those in chinuch.
It is not viewed as an environment to learn about yiddishkeit and that it produces an unhealthy understanding.
The issue of cult is that the followers are encouraged to follow blindly, are cut off from the community and their family so they are very dependent on the leader of the cult for information and thinking. It is thus not promoting a normal variation of yiddishkeit and healthy personality
Bottom line - the newspaper accounts are accurate
just speak to people in Chinuch as ask them what they think of the seminary - the jury of the frum community has already decided this case and it is a place to avoid.
ReplyDeleteNot sure where you are getting your information from - Which rav or mechanech thinks the school is a place to send girls?
??
ReplyDeleteActually... how do YOU define a cult? It would make the conversation easier.
ReplyDeletein this case it's the parents that are doing spiritual pikuach nefesh by saving their daughters of this cult
ReplyDeleteColor me "confused". Some of these girls would presumably be drafted if they didn't go to his seminary.
ReplyDeleteNow, if they refused to go, they would be imprisoned...and be cut off from their families, forced to follow rules against their will, and be given work which they would be minimally compensated for.
Am I missing something here??
Some yeshiva 'bochrim' live in pretty cramped, 'unappetizing' conditions. But they're men (or boys) and don't really need more.
ReplyDeleteGirls are different.
If they are willing to put up with this, something is wrong.
Definitely a cult.
By theway, have any of these young ladies gotten married?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/230847/beis-din-orders-aaron-ramati-to-leave-yerushalayim.html
ReplyDeleteComment #8....
"This case had already been put to a bet din over a year ago and they
allowed Rav Ramati to continue, as did Rav David Abuchatzeira.
"I visited my niece twice without warning and found the door open and
girls, all over the age of 21, coming and going at will. Several had
mobile phones!
"Former Shas me Ze’ev Nissim said that they are not allowed to get married but there have been 2 weddings this year!
"I know it hurts irreligious parents when they children become
religious but lets not get it out of proportion. The police found
nothing wrong. The neighbours are supportive and the girls are happy and not stupid.
"Somebody tell Mrs Vaknin that calling her daughter, a former ranking
officer in the border police, a liar is not a sign of love. Neither is
trying to set light to the fence!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
ReplyDelete"In the sociological classifications of religious movements in English, a cult is
a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and
practices. However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are
sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, thus making a precise definition
problematic. In the English speaking world, the word often carries derogatory
connotations, but in other European languages, it is used as English-speakers
use the word "religion", sometimes causing confusion for English-speakers
reading material translated from other languages. The word "cult" has always
been controversial because it is (in a pejorative sense) considered a subjective
term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with differing doctrines or
practices, which lacks a clear or consistent definition."
Again I will repeat - ask people in chinuch if they would recommend the seminary. What kiruv rabbis send girls to the seminary and if they do - what types of girls?
ReplyDeleteWhat did the Beis Din actually say - That there is nothing wrong and that the seminary should continue as before or that in spite of many serious problems it provides a low level service that is better than nothing - but not by much?
I have no information about the school, other that which is published online. It doesn't matter if Rabbi X,Y, or Z disagrees with the schools methods or hashkafos, because literally every single yeshiva and chassidus has detractors. Satmar will say Lubavitch is off-base, and vice versa, and the list goes on. I'm not here to defend (nor bash) any particular institution. I'm merely commenting about what I perceive as the shellacking of a person who you (and others) don't agree with his שיטות.
ReplyDeleteNow that you've given us a "relevant and useful definition", can you explain the relevance of any of the 20 items to Rabbi Ramati and his students? Can you explain how this differs from the extreme devotion many yeshiva students or חסידים display to their rosh yeshiva or rebbe?
ReplyDeleteBut if you became aware that his seminary is not considered an acceptable option by rabbis, kiruv workers and people in kiruv - would it make a difference?
ReplyDeleteArguing about how many angels and what type of angels dance on a pin and whether YNET is accurate - is not the issue. Is the school aceptable as an educational institution in your world? It is not acceptable in my world.
need to be deprogrammed. I'm finding myself liking Rabbi Ramati.
ReplyDelete