"THE REAL CULPRIT IN THE TAMAR FRIEDMAN EPSTEIN REMARRIAGE"
GUEST POST:
Most of us by now have realized that Tamar Friedman Epstein’s remarriage to Adam Fleischer is a clear violation of the Torah and should she bear any children with him, they will be branded as mamzerim. We have witnessed dozens of great Rabbis decry the Kamenetsky Greenblatt Heter to remarry. The question is : What caused Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky to allow for such a clear breach of the Torah? The answer in my opinion is that we have allowed for so many years the laws of Gittin to be twisted to conform to the modern feminist movement’s wishes, which has led us in a path of laxity in the stringencies of Hilchos Gittin. We have recently seen countless rabbis involved in practicing “forced Gittin” against halocho, being exposed for their bad deeds. But the list of such rabbis is much bigger. Most rabbis involved in forced gittin aren’t kidnappers or torturers, but their methodologies produce the same mamzerim as Tamar Epstein would. Is it a mere coincidence that so many rabbis involve in this anti- Torah scheme meet their fate in the same year?
One such entity that is responsible for much strife and enmity in Divorce matters is ORA (organization for the resolution of Agunot ) led by R. Jeremy Stern. He runs an organization well-funded by the feminist movement , to force Gittin on all men. Make no mistake, according to ORA, you have no halachic justification to argue your case on why your wife hasn’t received her Get, but rather they will destroy your reputation, financial means , and distance you from your children all in the name of the GET. This organization has gained momentum in the last 20 years under the false pretense of helping victimized women whose husbands refuse to give them a GET. Although there exist cases of true Agunot, many others are all “self created Agunot” to help ORA bolster the need to raise funds for their “ overinflated number of Agunot”.
These “fake Agunot” are in reality mentored and guided by ORA to withhold negotiations with their husbands or only negotiate terms that are 100% favorable to them, thereby causing no movement in negotiating an end, and thereby extending the “fake aguna status to 10+ years in many cases. They can then claim to the public that they have an “Aguna Crisis” and raise more money for their cause. Additionally ORA has over the years bullied rabbis who don’t follow along with them in their scheme. Their greatest weapon has been public rallies and other intimidation tactics.
Let’s take for example the Aharon Friedman and Meir Kin cases. These men have gone to Bais Din from the beginning. They both had followed halachic protocol and showed a willingness to give their wife’s Gittin. In fact Meir Kin had deposited a Get over 8 years ago. However as the following letter from Bais Din Shaar Hamishpot indicates, Lonna Kin stated to Rabbi Gestetner that ORA is unwilling to remove all their hateful propaganda against Meir. The Bais Din has informed her and several others that once the internet/ newspaper bashing is removed, then negotiations for the release of the Get can begin, as otherwise the GET will be not kosher due to coercive tactics employed. Rabbi Gestetner informed Lonna that indeed ORA is the cause of her not receiving a GET. The question is why after 10 years of separation and Meir remarrying with a Heter of 100 Rabbonim, that ORA is refusing to help out Lonna in receiving her GET?
Then you have Aharon Friedman offering a GET, but just requests that Tamar move back to his vicinity to visit with his daughter, but once again no negotiated end? ORA was once again also involved in the Friedman-Epstein divorce. How ludicrous is this whole fiasco, where all that had to be done was to negotiate a settlement? But why is Tamar Epstein and Lonna Kin and many others going along with ORA after years with no GET? Therefore , we all must wake up and realize that ORA is the culprit for many of these unsettled cases. They will continue to obstruct meaningful negotiations if it opposes their feminist agenda or if it diminishes their "Aguna numbers", and until we stop our support of ORA and distance ourselves from them, we will see a continued amount of unsettled divorce cases in which many of these husbands are actually wishing to give their wives a GET, but are waiting for a negotiated fair settlement so they too can live life after the divorce.
I saw on the Ora website that they have the endorsement of busloads of Rabbanim, including R' Yonasan Sacks שליט"א and R' Mordechai Willig שליט"א, who are great Talmidei Chachamim. (Probably many of the other names are as well.) Are they ignorant of the facts, or is there a Halachic Machlokes going on as to whether Ora's tactics violate Halacha?
ReplyDeleteRav Gestetner's letter is an excellent expose of the disasters being caused by ORA's halachic violations and exploitation of Jewish women.
ReplyDeleteThe list of rabbis below appears on the the ORA organization's web site as rabbis who allegedly endorse ORA.
Jews who care at all about preserving halachic divorce might want to approach these rabbis and discuss with them:
Is it true they are endorsing ORA, an organization that seeks to dismantle Torah divorce law, exploit women, and eliminate halachic rights for Jewish husbands?
Rabbi Nissan Antine Rabbi Kenneth Auman Rabbi David Bassous Rabbi Eliyahu Ben Dahan Rabbi Eliyahu Ben-Haim Rabbi Gedalya Berger Rabbi Ari Berman Rabbi Azarya Berzon Rabbi Hershel Billet Rabbi Yitzchak Blau Rabbi Yosef Blau Rabbi Reuven Brand Rabbi Kenneth Brander Rabbi Nasanayl Braun Rabbi Michael Broyde Rabbi Shalom Carmy Rabbi Zevulun Charlop Rabbi Mark Dratch Rabbi Shaul Epstein Rabbi Ilan Feldman Rabbi Reuven Fink Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst Rabbi Barry Gelman Rabbi Menachem Genack Rabbi Ozer Glickman Rabbi Efrem Goldberg Rabbi Shmuel Goldin Rabbi Meir Goldwicht Rabbi Yonah Gross Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt z"'l Rabbi Moshe Grussgott Rabbi Kenny Hain Rabbi Shmuel Hain Rabbi Moshe Heinemann Rabbi Basil Herring Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld Rabbi Yisroel Isaacs Rabbi Howard Jachter Rabbi Eliyahu Kaufman Rabbi Barry Kornblau Rabbi Elly Krimsky Rabbi Norman Lamm Rabbi Haskel Lookstein Rabbi Asher Lopatin Rabbi Leonard Matanky Rabbi Yaacov Neuberger Rabbi Marc Penner Rabbi Steven Pruzansky Rabbi Jason Rappoport Rabbi Aaron Rakeffet Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblatt Rabbi Michael Rosensweig Rabbi Yonason Sacks Rabbi Hershel Schachter Rabbi Dr. Jacob J. Schacter Rabbi Fabian Schonfeld Rabbi Efrem Schwalb Rabbi Gedalia Dov Schwartz Rabbi Michael Shmidman Rabbi Yitzchak Sladowsky Rabbi Peretz Steinberg Rabbi Michael Taubes Rabbi Elazar Meir Teitz Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler Rabbi Etan Tokayer Rabbi Steven Weil Rabbi Moshe Weinberger Rabbi Richard Weiss Rabbi Jeremy Wieder Rabbi Mordechai Willig Rabbi Eliezer Zwickler
Wow magnificent! “ One such entity that is responsible for much strife and enmity in Divorce matters is ORA(organization for the resolution of Agunot ) led by R. Jeremy Stern. He runs an organization well-funded by the feminist movement , to force Gittin on all men.”
ReplyDeleteI quote “The wisest of women builds her house, But folly tears it down with its [her] own hands (Proverbs 14:1-3). Married Women’s true interest lies in building up her family unit. ORA fits the category of folly that tears down family units, Heaven forbid.
Are these Rabbanim ignorant of the facts
ReplyDeleteSome are ignorant of the facts.
Some feel that ORA is the lesser of the evils.
Some are clearly not supportive of many of ORA's tactics.
Some are feminists - and are controlled by their crowd. Otherwise know as "pnei hador, kpnei hakelev." The dog always looking back to see which way they are expected to go.
Frankly, as a general rule I've never taken Modern Orthodox rabbis too seriously, given their overall track record and newfangled approach to Judaism.
ReplyDeleteMany of these rabbis are simply adding their endorsements to ORA based on existing endorsements. Look at the "Kosher Switch" fiasco. The same happened there. I also believe that many of these honorable rabbis had the wool pulled over their eyes by the very glib charismatic Mr. Stern who has proven that he is hypocrite and a koifer!
ReplyDeleteThis TOILET Organization * 00 * aka ORA, aka Graf Shel Rei/GSR in short, is equal to two zeroes representing two RA's, RA Leshomayim, veRA labriyos, headed by one calling himself JEREMY STERN SHARY'A. This TINOF METUNAF HAMETUNEFET RA is waging war against Toras H' uMshicho, veherim Yad beToras Moshe, veherim yadayim yedei Eisav al acheinu bnei Yisroel hanesunim batsoro ubashivyah, veheim mamash AVIZORAYHU deGILUI ARAYOS. jeremy tern YSV, the head of Graf Shel Reii dba ORA is the warrior that was founded to Harass and Shame, Stalk the head of the Family namely the Husbands, to Demonsrate against them anywhere they appear, Refuse to let them daven with minyan in Peace at Shul, Ruin his Parnassa aka YORED LECHAYOV, Ma'assei Ta'atuim and any imaginary tricks of the trade, so much so, that the BDA has bludgeoned a non-existent recalcitrant husband with a baseball bat in absentia to DEATH R'L. And for what/ For big buck$. These bag of Tricks you can only imagine of which all are against the TORAH, SA, Batei Dinim, the Poskei uGeoinei haDor, that directly cause and result in Gitei Meusse, Matir Eishes Ish laShuk, and Marbeh Mamzerim beYisroel, as well as responsible for many cases remaining in Limbo bekaf haKela. They are the ones manufacturing the alleged CRISIS. Stop supporting or funding them and their work shops, veheim kolim me'eilehem.
ReplyDeleteFight Fire with Fire!
It is now high time to eradicate this filth off from the face of the earth and flush him down the * 00 *. Fight Fire with Fire. We ask from the true Great Rabonim, RY's uPoskim to put him in CHEREM for being a RODEF, a Mak'e Re'ehu Baseser keBagalui, Mevaze talmidei Chachomim, Motsi Shem Ra asher lo hoyo velo nivro, Chote Umachti es Yisroel keYerovom ben Nevot, MECHALLEL SHEM SHOMAYIM BORABIM, and be mekayem a total MItsvas Biur of Uviarto horo miKirbecho. We need to demonstrate beyeser se'es uvyeser oz wherever he appears and harass him with Bullhorns, follow him like the Pied Piper anywhere and everywhere in Public where he only moves. This RASHA haYADUA LESHIMTSA hamechuneh jeremy stern YSV decided to make a living out of peoples misery through Chicanery tactics in cahoots with helping the Money machine rabonim filling their Coiffeurs to leach off big buck$ while at it . Give him a taste of his own medicine, let's see how he likes it and able to withstand it. Have him and ALL his cohorts names be printed in Public places, in the Newspapers, Blogs, Posters in front of all Shuls, with their Pictures so that the whole wide world should see and know who they are and what they stand for. For over twenty years too long he has been ruling along with the ba'alei hazroa backed by recalcitrant rabiners and rabonim, that most of them are B'H' already sitting in the jail system, rotting away. Time to fight back, and now there is an organization called ORphA to destroy them. TiRdOPH beAf veSashmidem mitachas shmei haShem! Only then shall Peace reign.
Al ken BAU LAEZRAS H' BAGIBORIM!
Fabricating lies and tau bidvar Mishneh chozer, is no machlokes in Halacha.
ReplyDeleteI'm waiting for others to answer this question.....
ReplyDeleteRather than just wait..... for starters, I would say that all the rabbonim belong to the Modern Orthodox school of thought which would lead their hashkafos in the feminist light and direction. They either learned in left leaning institutions such as YU, and/or lead Modern Orthodox congregations or are open to their ideas by affiliating with them. For example, I attended an event for the National Council of Young Israel where Rabbi Heinemann was a speaker, where Rabbis Belsky and Dovid Kohn were speakers. ...not to overlook. .. Then, we also need to factor in political AND social pressure. .....
ReplyDeleteRather you should approach the great talmudei chachomim that are included in the list, who are much greater than you can hope to be, and ask them to teach you Torah.
ReplyDeleteORA must go if we are to repair the divorce system. Notice in the guest post that he mentions: "Is it a mere coincidence that so many rabbis involve in this anti- Torah scheme meet their fate in the same year?" I find it ironic that the following people involved in forced gittin all got reprimanded/punished IN THE SAME YEAR. 1. Mendel Epstein and the gang 2. Yaakov Goldstein and his children 3. Martin Wolmark 4. Shmuel Kamenetsky 5. Aryeh Ralbag (forced to testify or be charged). 6. Yisroel Belski 7. Sheldon Silver(He helped procure the NYS GET law)..
ReplyDeleteI disagree, although sure there is truth in the article.... The real reason in this case, I will venture to say is Money.....
ReplyDeleteYes money. the close nit relationship between the Epstein family and Kamanetzkys family (R Shalom in particular) was based off more than just very significant donations to the yeshiva.
But the significant monitary support the Epsteins provided to the Yeshiva can not be ignored. The close nit relationships that extended beyond money is another dinic that blinded the Kamanetzkys' descion in this particular case.....
But we all know how money talks and fills people with a false sense of 'hakaras hatov'
Years ago when there became a pick and choose for when Rav Shmuel would go to chasunas of people who did not keep the wedding takannos, the response was 'he has to because of 'hakaras hatov'....
Then Epsteins have done a tremendous and indescribsble amounts of chsesed and Tzedaka for the Yeshiva.....
It's impossible for that not have clouded the Kamanetzkys' judgment.
Just my opinion as an observer.
Here is some others. HaKe$ef ya'aneh es hakol!
ReplyDeleteI thought you were going to say, one ought to question why they aren't called "Traditional"....
ReplyDeleteThe whole list put together cannot even polish the shoes of R' Chayim Kanievsky, R' Moshe Shternbuch, R' Elyashiv z'tsal, jointly and severally.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot to mention the Bullhorn leader of TE's demonstration r' freundel the mikveh peeper, and many others that are licking their wounds in solitude.
ReplyDeletewho are much greater than you can hope to be
ReplyDeleteWhat a disgusting thing to say.
The feminist rabbis have employed many halachic fabrications to justify dismantling Jewish divorce law.
ReplyDeletePlease ask your so-called "great talmudei chachomim" to write public letters refuting (using authentic, traditional Torah sources, not Modern Orthodox) Rav Gestetner's numerous brilliant letters he wrote in protest against ORA's severe halachic violations . If your "great talmudei chachomim" cannot do so, then they are simply imposing their own feminist religion on the Orthodox communities.
I'm not following your train of thought by mentioned those three rabbonim who are considered Chareidi in your comment about MO...?
ReplyDeleteThat's a broad statement, broad , because ofthe range of rabbis listed.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking about talmidai Chachomim, what makes one a talmid chochom? Lots of knowledge? Well, that alone makes one just plain "chochom", why are those who master Torah earn the title of "TALMID chochom? Because they are expected to *learn* from their Torah, not just to cerebrally possess it...
And some simply sign because they see someone else signed.
ReplyDeleteI have approached many of those "talmidei chachomim" to be rivui almanah. They won't lift a finger, they won't say a word. Where is the Torah they are supposed to teach? Is it just an intellectual exercise?
ReplyDeleteIs Rav Gestetner related to R' Nosson Gestetner זצ"ל?
ReplyDeleteIt is all very well to criticize ORA, or the notorious feminist R. Schachter, or the notoriously Modern Orthodox R. Belsky. The Friedman/Epstein debacle is entirely the fault of three impeccably Haredi rabbonim named Kaminetsky and Greenblatt. What answer can we now give to those claiming, "when there's a halachic will, there's a rabbinic way"?
ReplyDeleteIf Mr. Fleischer realizes his terrible mistake and separates from the Epstein woman, it will be interesting to see who demands he give her a get.
I'm wondering what would happen if Fleisher and his girlfriend Epstein refuse to separate even if the mattirim withdraw their heter...
ReplyDeleteWe need a DNA test. Thiss comenter spels likke a Yeshiva guy. Close nit? Dinamic? Are gerls scools reallly just as bad as yeshivos?
ReplyDeleteAs I read somewhere recently online..... Hashem is cleaning up.... People are being weaded out....
ReplyDeleteThis was said when all the money scammers were caught at the same time,
Then the child abusers....
Now improper marriages....
What's next?????
C.E., I've been thinking a lot on that saying of halachic will bending Judaism. I believe that for the most part, we see the contrary, that no matter how prominent a rabbinic figure one may be, the Torah is here to stay unabrogted. As mentioned before on this blog, It is a promise from the Torah, " ki lo tishochach mipi zaro ". If the act of publicly sanctioned adultery organized by a few rabbis is not rescindable, then, most certainly letters from rabbonim across the spectrum adamantly declaring a couple's I'll fated union and their offspring to be illegitimate are most definitely not.
ReplyDeleteExactly what I am trying to say: they are nonetheless influenced due to various affiliations. They show up at the gatherings of National Council of Young Israel, in the OU, Rabbi Belsky had affiliations at least with Rabbi Genack, in short ,there is no shortage of ways how they associate with each other and they get influenced by each other and have to come onto one another's favors, such as POLITICAL support, having a united front with them, etc. What is so difficult to understand?
ReplyDeleteAh, gevaldig, now we can tell Chaim and everybody else, zil gemor and chazara for others! (Hopefully me too....)
ReplyDeleteMind elaborating how much money they gave and what you specifically mean in Chesesd ad tzedakah that they have done for the yeshiva? Do you find it safe to say that the Philadelphia yeshiva is dependent on them?
ReplyDeleteThe video of the levaya of yisroel Belsky showed Shmuel Kaminetzky as one of the eulogizers. He lost his partner in crime.
ReplyDeleteTrilby's Svengali was a character of fiction. Conversely, Marc Breed, has captivated a generation with such a unique and engaging personality that we've allowed him the ultimately luxury of a true freedom. The Art he has created, as a result of this, only seems odd; in that we view it while tinged with envy. That we in Cleveland possess such a close-up look, should be a source of extreme pride. For we may live vicariously through his artistic rampage among us.
ReplyDelete-Dr. Stanley Workman,
Art History, Professor Emeritus
http://artistmarcbreed.blogspot.com/
A talmid chacham is not synonymous with being a yirei shamayim....
ReplyDeleteOf course only Hashem can judge the level of ones yirah.... But to be a talmid chacham and shakran or even a rasha is not a contradiction.....
Our generation is loaded with and producing many many talmidei chachamim..... But how many yarei shamayim is our system producing???
(That's a rhetorical question... Just food for thought)
The grapevine says that is what is going on now
ReplyDeleteDoc epstein used to see the boys from yeshiva free of charge and also helped support the yeshivah and more than all is shimmi glick who is mechutan with the epsteins who now is making sure lakewood doesn't come out against the kaminetsky adultery saga he realy bankrolls phily and lakewood
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to insure I understood your point correctly. You're saying those three rabbis lean left, if I understand. Could you elaborate more specifically how those three lean left?
ReplyDeleteSo the grapevine is indicating the rabbonim who gave the heter withdrew the heter?
ReplyDeleteAmen, ken Yehi Rotzon!
ReplyDeleteActually Rav Sternbuch expressed the same idea
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2016/01/rav-moshe-sternubchs-new-letter.html
A very clear outcome: they will be shunned and they will know that any children they ch"v choose to have, will be shunned...and if the kehilla they choose to live in will be more organized, they will be beaten *k'din* until they separate. ....
ReplyDeleteThat's my point: they are NOT talmidai Chachomim because they don't learn from and *apply* their chochmah. They are just Chachomim, like the mathematicians and chemists....
ReplyDeleteId rather not elaborate.... It's not my business to disclose....
ReplyDeleteSince the petirah of Dr. Epstein things have been different.
However while Dr. Epstein was alive, I can safely say the yeshiva did depend on them in various ways...
Anymore I do not feel comfortable disclosing.
Auto correct.... The down side of smart phones and fat fingers....
ReplyDeleteI heard from a support, 'its a difference of opion, of someone has a problem with it, don't marry them'....
ReplyDeleteThat comment was.said.by a very emotionally rile up.woma. who is fed up with the craziness...
I'm not sure how many people feel this way....
The comments below are just shocking. Why can you not accept that many rabbis such as the rambam, rashi, tosafot etc. hold that a women can demand a divorce if she finds her husband repulsive. You can say things about ora but do you dare also label the rambam as a feminist who is destroying the torah? After all, he said "She is not like a captive to have to live with someone she hates." (and therefore the beis din can force a divorce)
ReplyDeleteBesides, you cannot claim that 'gets on demand' are against the torah because the torah allows a man to do it. All the arguments about breaking business arrangements and tearing families apart are just not relevant min hatorah. The whole issue with a woman is a social one that like any other halachic issue, has two sides, both of which are torah. So stop bad mouthing all the rabbis with whom little you don't agree it.
The kotlers and Kamanetzkys are also mechutanim.... I'm sure that complicates things as well....
ReplyDeleteI have this from a good source, r s. Kaminetsky has asked Tamar to separate from her husband upon the request of r nota Greenblat himslef, Tamar refuses to do so unless he says she is mechuyav al pi din
ReplyDeleteI also hear that rabbi first of Chicago is telling her not to seperate
I did that with a breathalyzer test. BTW, if so - hakoras hatov and all, the more so they should have never been involved according to the SA.
ReplyDeleteDon't know if you remember the rumors that RNG told them to separate for the time being and the couple told him back that you gave us the heter and your only pulling back because of public pressure so we are not listening
ReplyDeleteWhat is the difference of opinion? No one has come to the defense of the heter. The fig leave that is used is "there is additional information that justifies the heter but we can't tell any one because it was obtained illegally" The "facts" the heter are based on are false and even if they were true they don't justify annulment of the marriage.
ReplyDeleteHow many buses would you need to fill up busloads of baalei Koreach's, and how many lorries to upload their shalmoinim?
ReplyDeleteWhat does Rav Kotler have to do with any of this?
ReplyDeleteI heat you, but you can't argue with these people....
ReplyDeleteI don't even bother.... Thats the point at which I went on Google to find the big bad blogger I was being told about....
That's why I am here now.
He is the head of Lakewood.... I am purely assuming this is why to my knowledge Lakewood has stayed quiet as well...
ReplyDeleteI think R Fuerst has by and large evaded the limelight and is getting away with murder at the expense of Klal Yisroel. In the 2003 Schattner fiasco, R Belsky got the brunt of the flack while he did about 15 annulments including now, for which he is not getting flack aside from the rest of the 15. Pardon me for opening my mouth so wide, but IMHO, this definitely should be brought to attention to someone like Rav Sternbuch or such caliber. .......
ReplyDeleteSimple he's making sure the moetzes and roshei yeshiva don't come out against the maise nivala
ReplyDeleteTempted to brech. ..
ReplyDeleteThen, he should put them in cherem the whole nine yards......
ReplyDeleteAre we creating a situation where parts of Klal Yisroel won't be able to marry one another? Where people are going to have children that some consider illegitimate?
ReplyDeleteAll the arguments about breaking business arrangements and tearing families apart are just not relevant min hatorah.
ReplyDeleteYes, they are.
1) What percentage of divorces are initiated by men?
What percentage of divorces are initiated by women?
2) A man must pay a hefty fee for breaking up his family without due cause. Why don't you seek to have the woman pay the same fee if you seek to permit her to break up her family without due cause? Where is the equality? Why are you so biased against women that you don't see them as responsible enough to be able handle a bit of accountability?
Digging that far? Of course, because poskim for hundreds of years up until today outlawed it!...
ReplyDeleteVery simple how this "Ring-a-round the rosie, A pocket full of posies..." goes.
ReplyDeleteThe K's are innocent and not responsible since they never gave the heter.
The Matir (who relied on the K's for the facts), does not have to be listened to - since he is not the rav or daas torah of the couple. For that they can rely on K junior, who has not paskened that they must separate.
Additionally, it was RSK who was in support of the RMK in the Dodelsohn Chilul Hashem. He is not about to stab him in the back now.
ReplyDeleteHas he refused to critisize the "heter?"
ReplyDeleteHas he intimated Lakewood poskim to not criticize the nonsense?
The Halacha is paskened against those shittas. And the "business arrangement"/halachic marriage contract is that only the husband can divorce at will and that the wife cannot. But even that right was taken away by Rabbeinu Gershom.
ReplyDeleter s. Kaminetsky
ReplyDeleteFather or son?
Tamar refuses to do so unless he says she is mechuyav al pi din
ReplyDeleteLOL
Din? So why exactly would RSK ask her to separate? What type of supposed request was it: "Sweetie, are you willing to separate just to satisfy some meddlesome, abusive, male-chauvinists?"
See, we understand that RSK has nothing to do with this.
A. He never permitted Tamar to marry!
B. Anyhow, this is a halachic dispute that should be decided by Rav Dovid Feinstein. (Um, why not go and ask him what to do? Ehh, I’m not responsible.)
C. RSK even asked her to separate, but "she just didn't listen." Now, RSK is completely in the clear and free of any responsibility.
K? Yep, got it!
Rabbi Saltz is a Lakewood posek who signed against the heter...
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2016/01/baltimore-beis-din-apologizes-for-many.html#comment-2476453293
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting perspective. We're glad to have it in these conversations.
ReplyDeleteMay I ask you a question from that perspective? When the Young Israel of Oxford Circle was sold by National Council to Budhists, ( http://cleanupyoungisrael.blogspot.com/2011/06/national-council-sold-young-israel-of.html ) did anyone in Philadelphia speak up? Did the anyone from the Philadelphia Yeshiva say anything?
That is true, but you make it sound as though those were individual shittos rather than the universally accepted halacha from the period of the Geonim through the early Rishonim. Also a period of hundreds of years.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, even though the Rambam's shitta is rejected regarding compulsion from the beit din, his reasoning seems entirely applicable in describing proper behavior for the husband.
Finally, I would recommend a study of R. Yosef Eliyahu's Henkin's "Lev Ivra". He is quite explicit that one factor motivating both his stringency regarding civil marriage and his proposal for resolving Agunah problems (which he abandoned in the face of opposition from his rebbe, Rav Issar Zalman Meltzer) was the concern that if women could be left Agunot (I think when he was writing this the problem was mostly husbands going to America and not writing back) from a proper kiddushin and not from a civil marriage they would opt for the latter. Indeed the ninth century equivalent of that concern (namely, the woman can convert to Islam to get out of an undesired marriage to a Jew) is explicitly mentioned by the Geonim as a reason for compelling a get on a claim of "maus alai"
Ironically what Rabbi Hershel Schachter, wrote in the wake of Freundel's exposure applies even more to rabbis who distorted halacha by fudging the data presented to the rabbi who arrived at the psak. https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/06/2015/halachah-and-the-fallen-rabbi-q-a-with-rabbi-hershel-schachter/
ReplyDeleteIf your source is true, then this sounds more of the ping pong game by RSKjr. Since RNG already said that whoever duped him with false Doc Reports is responsible and has the obligation to tell TE to separate, RSKjr wants to be yotse yedei chovoso and makes sure quoting the order of separation in the name of RNG, as if to say the HETER is RNG's FAULT and ERROR, thereby, it is RNG that RETRACTS the HETER. At the same time, connivingly tells TE/F her to respond, that she will comply only if ordered so *Al Pi Din*, again to make sure that the HETER and RETREAT is to be blamed solely on RNG. There is probably another factor in the mix, such as the monies procured for the HETER and if the deal didn't fly, who's responsibility it is to return these funds.
ReplyDeleteNow, from whence would TAMAR know the intricacies of a separation lechumra or Al Pi Din? It is *COACHED* by RSKjr to respond so. This is to throw back the ball back in RNG's court to make clear that responsibility of HETER is RNG's error, and the RETRACTION due - is only the fault of the RETRACTOR, namely RNG. R' Fuerst also holds still on to the HETER relinquishing any possibility of a change of heart continuing this remaining in limbo. And the PING PONG game so continues.
They themselves are already IN CHEREM by the SA as R' Reuven Paskened.
ReplyDeleteCan you please let us in on the last visit of RNG to R' Dovid what you heard under the Grapevine about that he wouldn't do it, referring to such a *HETER*. That response was on or about Nov. 23-15' where you responded to a Mr. Dad.
ReplyDelete..
Nov 23, 2015 ... Honesty. צא ורה שר' נטע הלך לבקר בשבוע שעבר, ולא הסכים איתו כלל וכלל ואמר לו שאין שום יתד (חוץ מהעיתון) לסמוך עליו ...
... רק אמר שהוא עצמו לא היה מתירה
Honesty Dad • 2 months ago
They can anytime ask jeremy stern of ora ordering his goon squad to, GET'EM
ReplyDeleteAnd this why this whole thing is disheartening....
ReplyDeleteSeems this is no longer about kavod Hatorah anymore....
It seems it ha become about kavod atzmi....
What happened to the days when two gedolei Yisrael could disagree yet walk out of the beis medrash hand in hand??
Yes and the kotlers gave him hell for it
ReplyDeleteThanks, I thought you had a question if any Lakewood poskim were intimidated to sign against the heter. So then what your question? You see he signed?
ReplyDelete1. The basis during the time oif the Geonim was a shas hadchak with the Islamic conversions. So even during the time of the Geonim they weren't using the default normative halacha but rather a deviation of the standard halacha in order to address the shas hadchak of women converting to Islam.
ReplyDelete2. You (and I) have no right today to change from the standard normative halacha that Klal Yisroel has paskened with, and adhered to for many hundreds of years.
Point 2 reminds me of the Gemara in Gittin, Perek Hanizokin, asks "why do we not make a kesuvah for a man? " Answers the Gemara, "a woman leaves the marriage with her will or against her will, a man leaves only with his will." Are these feminists initiating any kesuvah?
ReplyDeleteThanks.
ReplyDeleteShimmy Glick is mechutan with the Epsteins. . . now it makes sense why RAL Shteinmen has not spoken up. . .
ReplyDelete1. As I mentioned--see my last paragraph. And women abandoning Torah and going to secular court today is OK with you?
ReplyDelete2. I didn't suggest otherwise.
3. Especially in interpersonal matters we are commanded to go beyond the minimal requirements of the halacha. See my middle paragraph. And the gemara in kiddushin (speaking of the beginning rather than the end of a marriage) is explicit that sticking a woman in a marriage where the husband doesn't love and respect her is a violation of "V'ahavta l'reyacha."
The only one who dared to sign is being called Rav Miller's "henchman." What does that suggest about all the other Lakewood poskim?
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to the days when two gedolei Yisrael could disagree yet walk out of the beis medrash hand in hand??
ReplyDeleteAs soon as it changed over to personal honor, all in the name of the "Torah's honor", that left with it as well. It is disheartening. Their are still many talmidei chachomim are not this way and do place Hashem's honor above their own.
1. a) Women going to arcaos kneged halacha are usually doing so to get a better financial and/or custody arrangement than Halacha grants her and Beis Din is deputized under Halacha to grant her. Changing the Halacha to grant her a Get when Halacha says she is entitled to none doesn't change these factors why she wrongly went to arcaos and thus doesn't disincentivize her from going to arcaos.
ReplyDeleteb) Even if changing the Halacha would potentially disincentivize her from going to arcaos, of what benefit would it be to change the Halacha to what she can illegitimately obtain via aracos - all in the name of changing the Halacha in order to stop her from going to arcaos? Change the Halacha to give her what she illegitimately wants so she shouldn't have to try to illegitimately obtain it??
2. If you agree we are not qualified to change the Halacha from how its been paskened and practiced for the past many hundreds of years, what is the tachlis of this discussion? If the Halacha can't be changed then this all might be an intellectually satisfying debate but you're agreeing that at the end of the day the Halacha as enumerated in Shulchan Aruch etc. will remain as is.
3. I am speaking of cases where the husband does love her and does sincerely wish to continue the marriage even though she wants out. A case where halachicly she has no right to receive a Get.
It is months since the HETER was used. It is weeks since the big meeting of "Gedolim" in Brooklyn. It is also weeks since the Machaa of Gedolim, Roshai Yeshivas and Rabonim in Eretz Yisroel and America. Nothing has really happened. No one who "CARES" is willing to take this issue any further. Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky did not lose any of is stature. (Everyone, it seems, is afraid to try to take him down) It was all big talk and nothing else. The conclusion is let the buyer beware - when you are about to marry off your children do some real checking. Not just about paper plates etc but about things that really matter - YICHUS of Klal Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteI have only one question for Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rabbi Shalom Kaminetsky, Rabbi Nota Greenblatt, Rabbi Furst, Rabbi Gedalyah Schwatrz
WOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILD OR GRANDCHILD MARRY THE CHILD OF TAMAR FRIEDMAN AND ADAM FLEISHER.
Politically Incorrect ehud • 5 hours ago
ReplyDeleteRSK Sr or Jr where'd you get that info?
***************
FROM HERE:
Nathan of gaza • 20 hours ago
I have this from a good source, r s. Kaminetsky has asked Tamar to separate from her husband upon the request of r nota Greenblat himslef, Tamar refuses to do so unless he says she is mechuyav al pi din
I also hear that rabbi first of Chicago is telling her not to seperate.
r s could be either jr/sr. My daas Noite would tend to say Sr., since Kvar hoireh hazoken = hapeh shehitir = hapeh shossar. rofl veidach zil ugmor.
ps. you can also ask and hear from the horses mouth nusen nuteh of gaza he planted a listening bug hidden in the grapevine.
Symbolically, these prenup genres exchange wedding rings when the Gentleman declares Harei At, as if to say on equal footing I buy you off just the same, therefore, I can sell you out thru the prenup at will, and that is their default kesuvah for the men. It is the lecho Doidi ring, namely Ani ledoidi verofl vedoidi li. It is thus, that use their men as a wiping mat.
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the point. Min hatorah is is fine to rip apart a family and ruin the children's lives. You can therefore not use this argument against women when they want a divorce.
ReplyDeleteLot's of problems are due to Dayonim she'einom mehugonim, says Masechet Shabbos, even the fish become stiff and swim on their backs. Many others are due to Psulei Gittin. Gotta make a thorough bedikat chometz in the pockets of the Busloads and also Bedek haBayis. Even the fans need checkups for chometzdiga Bugs. Didn't you hear it hit the fan?
ReplyDeleteHard to think about it. ...
ReplyDeleteHmm......
ReplyDeleteThey happened to be gedolei Yisroel and
They happened to walk hand in hand.....
and those two....... often go hand in hand! .........:-)
RSK Sr did write a complaint on his stationery as to why the media was used to persecute Weiss. He also wrote a subsequent letter that he didn't intend anything against Dodelson...
ReplyDeleteNo, min haTorah it is most certainly *not* fine to rip apart a family or ruin the children's lives.
ReplyDeleteWe cannot be Machmir on someone else's behalf. It is forbidden to curse or hit someone because he didn't fulfill V'ahavta, and certainly not in a way which produces a possul get. This is much of what the Chofetz Chaim deals with in Hilchos Loshon Hora: you cannot badmouth someone for not doing you a favor.
ReplyDeleteI dont know of any further developments with reb dovid since that meeting
ReplyDeleteHe buys her and she sells him a bridge. ..
ReplyDeleteMin HaTorah and mid'rabbonon it is muttar (and mitzvah) to rip up those organizations as a whole and the individuals who run them....
ReplyDeletePlease reply, of that particular visit of RNG to R' Dovid, who asked what from whom, and clearly who replied what to whom, without the further developments since. When did R' Dovid say he is a Bar Samcha, on which occasion? Are you Honesty/Dad as well?
ReplyDeleteThe answer would be no. This shailo was once asked about the etrogim.
ReplyDeleteEven in case #3, after making an effort at reconciliation, at some point if it isn't working he needs to face reality and get on with his life, and let her get on with hers. As any number of posekim (e.g Rav Moshe) have ruled.
ReplyDelete1. No. In the interest of keeping her from abandoning Torah in general.
RSK Sr did write a complaint on his stationery as to why the media was used to persecute Weiss.
ReplyDeleteOnly AFTER he decided that Weiss was engaged in serious negotiations. Prior to that, I understood that he was in support of the NY Prust article. The second letter seems to clarify that.
It is actually the woman that ripped apart everything. When the man initiates a divorce, it is only when motso bah ervas dovor.
ReplyDeleteBeferush a deoraysa, va'asisem lo ka'asher zomam la'asos.
ReplyDeletesometimes an Adams apple.
ReplyDeleteWhat's next?
ReplyDeleteHigh time to do teshuva!
1. I don't think there is a mass number of cases of women abandoning Torah in general because they did not receive a Get. (In fact the entire number of disputed contentious outstanding divorce cases [including those where she doesn't become frei] is much less than the Get advocates would lead you to believe.)
ReplyDelete2. a) Offhand, who are some examples of rabbonim that you think might be qualified to make such a change in halacha?
b) Even assuming he/they can, if other poskim/rabbonim disagree with his/their proposed change of halacha, you end up with a split of some rabbonim saying halacha remains as is, as its been practiced for the last hundreds of years, whereas other rabbonim say we have to now change the halacha. The practical effect of that is that the husbands will be going with the traditionalists who insist the halacha shouldn't be changed whereas the wives in the contentious cases go with the rabbis who want to change the halacha. The net effect being then the husbands still aren't going to give it since they're going with the traditionalists.
3. Other poskim (i.e. Rav Elyashiv et al) have ruled that halachicly, per S"A etc., there is no time frame basis that mandates he give her a divorce if he desires to remain married to her.
Sorry, I never hear anything about it... But I did know about the two churches that were baught and made into mikomos Torah.. That was a pretty big community deal....
ReplyDeleteSorry, never heard about it.... But you hear about the two churches in town that have been baught and converted into mikomos shel torah?
ReplyDelete1) I have no idea about numbers. Rav Henkin in Lev Ivra worried about this 75 years ago. I doubt things have gotten better since; I know of no reliable studies and lack personal experience.
ReplyDelete2) I am not sure it is any individual rabbi, so much as requiring a general consensus. Which would avoid your case 2b. I realize this is quite unlikely.
3. I know. But I have to say at some point the claim that he really wants to stay married, rather than that he wants to torture his wife loses all credibility. As R. Chaim Palaggi said of such a husband--he will be required to account for himself after 120. And one shouldn't always insist on his rights--the Torah often requires one to act "lifnim mishurat ha din"
I remember that the 2nd letter only indicated that desired to deflect any rumor and that he didn't mean to infer anything against the Dodelsons (he didn't specify that that notion might have resulted from his first letter). ...
ReplyDeleteI also meant to say that They are rodef achar chavairo l'horgo. Also, perhaps you (and hopefully others)are familiar with the letter signed by about 50 rabbonim (with Rav Menashe Klein zt"l as the first (or one of the first) signatures) discussing arkaos and saying just that on all those/these mosrim and that niton l'hatzilom (the nirdofin) b'nafshom (shel harodfin). Now I am thinking that in our case and at the same time they are rodef achar chavairo l'inof! Ay ay ayyyyy....
ReplyDelete? Actually, she practically eats his Adam's apple....
ReplyDeleteWhy don't we go with Lonna Kin to demonstrate in front of ORA headquarters? ......
ReplyDeleteHere it is:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.daattorah.blogspot.ch/2014/02/rav-shmuel-kaminetskys-letter-to.html
I am aware that you did get help and support for what you have done along that time, myself amongst them. It is clear that you have done what you did according to Daas Torah
He says that he supported it, but wanted quiet in order to complete the negotiations.
To buy a church for a Makom Torah is not a mitzvah but for a shul to be sold as a makom avodah zarah is an aveirah.
ReplyDeleteMy father was Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky's, zt'l, gabbai and he knows Rav Shmuel personally to the extent that Rav Shmuel recognized me as my father's son the moment I walked into the yeshiva years ago. My father could not fathom how Rav Shmuel did not say a word when the shul in Oxford Circle was sold to the idolators. He felt as you now feel.
Isn't teitse mize umize al pi din? Many Botei dinim posted here already said so, as well as the order of who is on first, namely AdFl who was the second as in LIFO.
ReplyDeleteI know nothing about this Kin case, but another blog is posting that husband demands $350,000 for get.
ReplyDeleteDoes this include the rosh ba'al hatokea as well? that is the guy without the kippa?
ReplyDeleteWhy not?
ReplyDeleteCouln't have said it any better!
ReplyDeletebecause it's only a P.O.B. lol
ReplyDeletekippah shel shrotzim? or uma'achilm oso seorim ad shkreiso nivkaas
ReplyDeleteAlthough I haven't heard or have seen it, I tend believe you.
ReplyDeleteBingo
ReplyDeleteOker every issur in the aseres hadibros, which is considered the Lev of the Torah. ...
ReplyDeleteWithout being guilty of Emunas Chachomim that puts people off derech. ...
ReplyDeleteBarry, looks like you just drink up the ORA propaganda. Its a lie that MK is asking money for a GET. Meir Kin hasn't been able to ask for anything in Bais Din because it appears that Lonna Kin has refused to appear before any Bais Din he summoned her to. If MK ever does ask for anything, it would be the halachic damages that he's entitled to.
ReplyDeleteYou've managed to draw our attention away from a critical point in the guest post that shows how your ORA buddies are a primary cause of the fake "agunot" problem, even as ORA pretends to be rescuing them:
"Lonna Kin stated to Rabbi Gestetner that ORA is unwilling to remove all their hateful propaganda against Meir. The Bais Din has informed her and several others that once the internet/ newspaper bashing is removed, then negotiations for the release of the Get can begin, as otherwise the GET will be not kosher due to coercive tactics employed."