although the shiur is in yiddish, one can see that Rabbi Gestetner is not afraid to speak out. He ridicules the Bais Din of Dovid Feinstein that was set up for the main purpose of exonarating Kaminetsky for the eshes ish that he permitted to remarry.
Wow! I haven't heard such a powerful speech in years. הה״ד ולמוחיכים ינעם ועליהם תבא ברכת טוב שפתים ישק משיב דברים נחוכים. I am a bit uncomfortable with his calling everyone shkutzim. He does defend Friedman B"H. ואשברה מתלעות עול ומשיניו אשליך טרף.
That would be Rabbi Dovid Feinstein. He doesn't ridicule Rabbi Feinstein. You should be careful the way you speak, before I put you as well into "Internet Cherem".
I've already stated my opinion of Rav Gestetner's shiur elsewhere on this blog. Now that I saw that there is a post about it I pasted it here.
Note how he makes a point that "WE" were the first to expose the hetter - everyone else woke up only later. And "they" - meaning almost the entire rabbinic establishment besides Rav Gestetner - only opposed it to show how machmir they are in order to justify their terrible actions in gittin.
This man has serious issues. He has made kefiyah bget his reason d'etre, and sees the world in terms of those who agree to his agenda and those that don't.
He criticizes Rav Shloime Miller, who is one of the greatest talmidei chachamim and poskim in North America, and one of the most vocal opponents of the hetter, of doing everything to make a name for himself.
The tactical maneuvers he reads into Rav Miller's letters are so far removed from Rav Miller's demeanor. Rav Miller is someone who has very little understanding of political maneuvers.
But Rav Gestetner has a problem. He can't bear that people who he has criticized in the past for not seeing eye to eye with his agenda have "hijacked" a campaign that should have been his. This is a repeated theme in his drashos.
Sorry, Rav Gestetner, you need to understand one basic concept: Calling great rabbanim names and denigrating people of stature will not make you any more chashuv. Just sit and learn, master 4 chelkei Shulchan Aruch, and act with middos of a talmid chacham, and you will earn the respect of the tzibbur. You won't have to speak against "Miller" and "Belsky", etc. to make yourself great.
And one more point: What in the world were you thinking when you advised AF not to go? You assumed that RDF is most certainly going to pasken mutar, that you don't want AF to have any part in the proceedings? Or because you were afraid that they might persuade him (not force him which he can simply avoid by not signing shtar berurin) to give a get?
If you had a parsha in matrimonial issues, you might see where he is coming from. ..try to hear him out. As far as sitting and learning daled chelka Shulchan Aruch, he brings mounds of mekoros to all his assertions, to which his opponents only have to say, " We don't hold of him"....
Yes, it is true that although she was "freed,or more like hefker, for a year (possibly two,nobody said anything - even Rav Shlomo Miller, until she got married. Guess, although people were afraid to speak up (as one dayan told me that if I protest "they will laugh at you that you are starting up with the gadol hador " ), once she got "married,facing the potential destruction of Klal Yisroel, ch"v, that was set in motion, was too much to bear.....okay, granted, perhaps he was not the only one, the Eidensohns were also there before everybody took that position. ....
Further listening to his talk, there were problems with the gittin involved with R Belsky and even Rav Shlomo Miller, but trying to be brief. .....
Rabbi gestetner is not afraid to speak the truth. I once asked him why he berates talmidei chachomim,and he replied that if a rabbi does a private sin thats one thing,but when rabbonim are making halacha rulings which cause the public to sin, then its a mitzva to publicly ridicule them. No rabbinic authority has been able to outwit/win him with a halachic battle,but instead try to say "we dont hold of him" . That is a weak argument. Rabbi Gestetner has spent many years studing hilchot Gittin and he wont tolerate feminist leaning rabbonim to twist the Torah. He is upset thst instead of focusing on the wrong doing against AF and focusing on TF , they instead are looking for ways to clear kaminetsky.
1. He is not obligated/allowed to give a get, just to allow her to stay married to this guy, who she is not allowed to stay married to anyway.
2. Psak in secret is not real. If you want to give a Psak with open mkoros, fine. To give a Psak and have it hidden, and not tell anyone why, is a joke. Either come out and say why you were Mattir this aishes ish, or the Psak doesn't exist.
3. People are more concerned that the end justifies the means, than the Halacha. If you care about the Halacha, you should be defending Friedman who halachically is obviously within his rights. We should all be standing up for him and his reputation. Not for reputations. Not RSK in this case, Not for RNG, not for what your perception as to what is best for klal Yisroel, only for the Halacha. AF doesn't owe her a get, and he has been totally railroaded. It is R' Gestetner's opinion that all that this new BD wants to do is further railroad this poor guy, so why should he be showing up at all ? So people can say that he is crazy ?
I think that perhaps AF should go to BD by RDF, and have R' Gestetner as his Toen.
I didn't quite catch what he was claiming R' Miller's new position to resolve this is, and what "shach" in Y.D. he is referring to. If anyone did, please clarify.
I think he was referring to another parsha where Harav Miller's position was that once a Rav pasken's a heter then it is kosher bdieved (if I understood it correctly)
I disagree on one thing, Harav G may be wrong for all I know, but he is also right on one thing by asking that the Rabunim as big as they are to issue a birur on what they say and do. They cannot issue blank checks claiming to be a godul allow them to do whatever they want. If they are right then let them commit pen to paper and let everyone know their position (right or wrong). Throught the prior generations Gedoilim have always written their positions while others disagreed. But do issue statements without showing why and on what it is based, is certainly not the way Gedoilim used to behave.
I think I saw that a while ago on his Kuntres on the forced get of Avrohom Rubin, where Rabbi Miller said on R Shafran that chochom mah she'osoh, osuy .........despite the overwhelming evidence and arguments to the contrary.
Is anybody anyone acceptable according to Rav Gestetner? Is anyone acceptable period? He seems to not forget what any one individual did wrong in the field of Ishus, he doesn't let this no get situation let him forget about when the issue was just gittin pesuli,n but then again, why should anyone forget?
So what? People who go by 'the establishment' as their yardstick, thus desiring to consider Rav Gestetner 'out of whack', especially if he is going against Rav Dovid Feinstein, should know - *on their terms,* that he was used with some type of haskamah from Reb Reuven....
You obviously are oblivious to the world of gittin. If you would understand the severity of the sin of what these phony rabbis are doing you would understand why RG denigrates them . In fact the Chofetz Chaim also denigrated a rabbi who tried to be matir eshes ish! The torah expects people to stand up and ridicule the evil. I assume that you havent woken up yet and see what type of reformadox destruction, kaminetsky, Belsky and the gang have committed. It just happens to be that RG is the only one that is willing to put his reputation on the line. Instead of ridiculing him, show us the readers where in Halocho he errs. Basically put up or shut up!
Rav Shlomo Miller officially paskened that Avraham Rubin's physically coerced Get in the 1990's was not Me'usa? And the reason was because someone had previously ruled it is valid? Who ruled it valid before Rav Miller? Who is Rabbi Shafran? And where did you learn all this and where is this kuntres you refer to?
for those of you who are in doubt if RG can ridicule other rabbis violating hilchos gittin, please read : http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2014/08/rambam.html
What the argument/s about ? and is it a 3-way arguement or two against one (in which case it would be correct to go by the majority with the Halocho of Achrei Rabim L"hatois majority)
And I may add to one of your comments that IMHO, what is best for Klal Yisroel is that the RSK Sr and Jr and RNG both apologize to AF. ....and *ironically*, THAT. ....will also improve their reputations! ....
Reb Reuven did not go to him. Others in teh family did, because they were sent to him, without ever checking out his reputation. Others who got involved later saw going to Gestetner as a foolish and very harmful error.
Rav Gestetner is right in the point you make, as well as in a number of other points he makes. My comments were not intended as a condonement of the hetter, nor of the way these individuals acted. Rather, they were directed at Rav Gestetner's methods of fighting the hetter. The way to fight it is not by denigrating those that are fighting it. Additionally, his advice to AF is beyond me. If we assume that this BD is acting in good faith, what sense would there be in obstructing their coming to a true conclusion based on the maximum amount of evidence available? This is about as close to intimidation of a witness as you can get. The only explanation for this is that he has made the presumptuous assertion that this BD is here only to kasher the hetter and save face for RNG and RSK. From whence hath he divined this? Does someone else suffer from PPD as well?
He is not. Is that a reason that AF should not appear at all? No one will force him to give a get as long as he doesn't sign shtarei berurin. Let him come, allow the BD to learn more about the case, allow the BD to be more convinced that he is not meshuga lchol davar, allow the BD to know that this was never a case of iggun. If they try to convince him on his own terms to give a get, what's wrong with that? Does anybody think that he may not give a get if he is convinced that it is for his benefit?
2. Psak in secret is not real. If you want to give a Psak with open mkoros, fine. To give a Psak and have it hidden, and not tell anyone why, is a joke. Either come out and say why you were Mattir this aishes ish, or the Psak doesn't exist.
100%
3. People are more concerned that the end justifies the means, than the Halacha. If you care about the Halacha, you should be defending Friedman who halachically is obviously within his rights. We should all be standing up for him and his reputation. Not for reputations. Not RSK in this case, Not for RNG, not for what your perception as to what is best for klal Yisroel, only for the Halacha.
It's not either-or. There are many things to take into account. Kvod HaTorah and Kvod Gedolei Yisrael are very important yesodos upon which Torah Judaism is built . Albeit they are sometimes misused by certain interested parties, that doesn't make them any less important. Any dayan sitting on such a case must take these into account.
AF doesn't owe her a get, and he has been totally railroaded. It is R' Gestetner's opinion that all that this new BD wants to do is further railroad this poor guy, so why should he be showing up at all ? So people can say that he is crazy?
See previous comment
I think that perhaps AF should go to BD by RDF, and have R' Gestetner as his Toen.
Here is what transpired at the meeting in MTJ R sholom Kaminetsky was invited to attend and did not show up, then a disagreement ensued as to how and if to proceed, RDF and RHD vs RS , RS argued that the majority wins only in final outcome, on procedural issues things need to be unanimous, it's was decided to bring rav miller in from Toronto to decide the issue Rav miller has agreed to attend, provided his letter head will be used in any announcement or correspondence
I know where he's coming from; I've been involved in more than one matrimonial parsha. He has some valid points, and sometimes he's the only one who will go out for something right. However, denigrating other rabbanim far greater than him is not the way to gain respect. Mounds of mekoros are nothing more than an indication of a better-than-average mind coupled by an Otzar Haposkim and an Otzar Hachochma. Can he be available to answer every sho'el in 4 chelkei ShA, like Rav Shloime Miller and lbclc Rav Belsky?
You assert That Rav Gestetner was the first to speak up about it. The fact is that he only wrote his letter at the end of Tishrei, while The Baltimore BD and Rav Nissim's BD already wrote in the previous summer that she is an eishes ish. Until then, it was difficult to go out against a hetter that no one knew what it was based on. The Kams were not forthcoming on this, not to a reporter, and not to Rav A Feldman & Schuchatowitz when they approached him (when he wrote "I was never mattir".) Only after she got married in Memphig by RNG did it become clear who is the mattir and what it was based on. This has nothing to do with fear.
I think you got a mix up here. There is a kuntres about that parsha from Rav G, in there he describes who Rav Shafran is and the heter around is. Rav Shafran is a known Rav in Bnei Brak and seemingly involved in problematic Gittin. What Rav G said this week seems to imply that Rav M had said the problematic Get was ok because Rav Shafran said so.
I meant to say that even if Rav Feinstein's own family used Rav G for a Get issue, they may still have differing opinions on other issues. You don't get bound to Rav G's opinion because you agreed with him once. Rabbonim have always had differing halachic opinions, the only diff was that they always used to write their tshuva or birur, where nowadays it's all secrets or non-existent because they are afraid it will get scrutinised by others or the public.
Well if you listen to his shiur you may realize that he makes a point about those who fight the Heter, that when there are Posule Gittin they are nowhere to be found, and that the way they fight seems to condone or allow such things to pass. I am not saying he is right or wrong but he makes a point nonethless
What I hear Rav G saying is that if AF goes there it: 1) gives credence to the Bais Din, so whatever they say they have AF's approval; 2) even if they say the Heter was invalid, if they tell AF give a Get nonetheless, then they have again allowed such a Heter to pass, putting the blame on AF instead of the Heter. 3) why do they need AF, when all they need to do is come out and say there was no way for the Heter. In other words he is saying that if the BAis Din still has any Sofek on the Heter then something is very wrong here. 4) the fact that a Bais Din can debate the Heter and debate over AF giving a Get now, while not coming out publicly to proclaim the treif union of Epstein and her Boel, and to say they must separate for ever, shows something fundamentally wrong. He makes other points but I do not recall them now, I only listened once.
BTW Hafkuas Kidushin was never used before except by RCYB, never used in practice by any Gedoilim in the Litvish velt nor by any Chassidsh Gedoilim. And BPD or PPD were not invented yesterday, and this alleged case of PPD is not the first in the community. Besides PPD and all other psychological so called disorders are very debatable and for a Rav to annul a marriage based on this is beyond comprehension.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make: He is using this story to denigrate people much greater than he, who are open about their position on this issue of kefiyah, by saying that as long as they don't agree with him about his life's campaign, then all their kano'us is nothing more than self-promotion (as opposed to him who is a beacon of humility and self-negation). Bkitzur this issue of kegiyah bget has become the way to make him the modren-day version of Rabbenu Yoel.
I agree. I am not sure why anyone should not go to any Beis Din that sends a hazmana ?? I am not sure the justification of R' Gestetner, telling AF not to go. Let him go and have a qualified Toen. Not going to a Beis din that sends a hazmana should never be tolerated, unless one chooses Zabla.
As far as kavod of the gedolim, I am not sure it applies here. The Psak of mamzer or not mamzer will have to be paskened. Regardless of who it may offend. You can't be Mattir a mamzer to placate anyone's kavod. RDF won't be Mattir her, just because.
Anyone else caught on to the fact that R' Gestetner also mentioned 4 or 5 other cases of mamzerim
I'm not sure, but that's how rav miller wants it, I guess maybe to give the benei Torah the confidence that since he's involved all will run according to halacha
1. Was AF and/or TE invited to attend since (after all) the discussion is in regard to AF (and he can show in person, if he's crazed or OCD, or not !) ? 2. Were Shtorei Birrurin signed by both sides, and if its true that no shtorei birrurin were signed, is it legal and legitimate for a BD to be dan evidence without permission of the person involved ? 3. If no shtorei birrurin were signed does TE and her new Husband have to abide by the psak and order of Reb Dovis"s Bais Din ? And, does Reb Nota Shlita have to abide by the new Bais Din's psak ? 4. Does the BD have the rights and permission to review the reports from the Psychologists without permission of AF ? Will the 1st and 2nd psychologist be interviewed (that are alluded to in Reb Sholom's letter ? Will the BD commission another report (a second opinion) and a Doctor's interview with AF ? 5. Can AF claim he signed shtorei birrurin with the Baltimore BD, and they have already paskened that the mekach tous is not legit ? And therefore, the new BD of Reb Dovid has no koach ... and its psak has no legitimacy ? 6. Will the diary of Tamar which is pretty much contradicts the Psychologists report be allowed into BD as evidence ? And the eidus of the dayanim of the Baltimore BD that never did Tamar claim that AF is crazed ? And, all the ?'s of Rabbi A. Feldman in his Letter, can they be brought into Reb Dovid's BD ?
1) How does a layman's appearing before a BD of gedolei rabbanim give them credence?
2) He can just let them know before appearing that he is only coming if a get is not within their jurisdiction. With that, they will not be able to pasken anything about a get. They may be able to negotiate over it, though.
3) Why they need him is anybody's guess. They are learned people who are trying to do due process in coming to a true conclusion. (Can you believe that?) In fact, the BD doesn't necessarily need AF for their own conclusion. They may need him to make their psak as foolproof as possible to convince the matirim, so that they will not have a pischon peh to say "You haven't seen all the evidence, therefore your psak is flawed".
4) There is no need for them to come out publicly. There have been enough proclamations to that effect. The couple is still together, simply because their halachic advisors (RSK and RNG) haven't been won over by the osrim, claiming that the osrim have not seen and heard all the evidence. If this BD were to declare that the couple must separate before hearing all the evidence, they would be disqualifying themselves in the eyes of RSK and RNG. This BD may be the last opportunity to corner the matirim into conceding that an objective panel has reviewed all the evidence and decided that the hetter is a mistake. To advise AF not to appear before the BD is tantamount to discarding this final opportunity to get the couple to separate. The only one who can advise AF not to appear is someone who really doesn't care if they separate.
It was used by Rav Moshe a number of times. It was used in the Rabbanut in a panel including Rav Shloime Fisher. It was used once before by RNG with the approval of RDF.
I am not a fan of those who withhold gittin, and less a fan of their rebellious wives. I believe that anyone who doesn't go to RDF, and is requested to go by RDF, should be put in Cherem. Just how I feel.
He should go. He should definitely have either you, or rabbi Gestetner at his side. This lack of BD that operate correctly is the biggest problem of this generation.
BTW, has anyone ruled on those who remarried based on Epstein's torture gitten, and whether they need new gittin ? Mamzerim ?
It amazes me, with such an emphasis on learning, there is no such emphasis on establishing credible BD, in each city.
אל תלשן עבד אל אדוניו פן יקללך ואשמת ... דור טהור בעיניו ומצואתו לא רוחץ דור חרבות שיניו ומאכלות מתלעותיו לאכול עניים מארץ ואביונים מאדם
If you still believe that NG and RSK will give way, then you are misleading yourself. They will always find a reason to justify what they did, (As long as the Rabunim will not openly decry the Matirim, and the boalim to be excommunicated from the Klal). They will always say that the BD did not see everything. Have the BD anonymously send a psychologist to talk with AF (without his knowledge of course) in a casual way, it needs not a rocket scientist to find out he is normal. BTW please read Harav Rominimk's letter posted elsewhere today, it answers most of your questions. There is also no reason to negotiate a Get from AF, he has a heter to remarry and using a Get as a tool to get the matirim to revert makes no sense and actually plays into what Rav G has been arguing all along. Although I hear your point quite well that the BD needs to convince the Matirim to retract their position, this is where the problem lies and I think this is what Rav G is decrying.
Psak in secret is not real. If you want to give a Psak with open mkoros, fine. To give a Psak and have it hidden, and not tell anyone why, is a joke. Either come out and say why you were Mattir this aishes ish, or the Psak doesn't exist.
No doubt you yourself have mekoros for your statement that a psak given in secret, without mekoros publicized, is "not real" and "a joke" and "does not exist." Kindly provide your mekoros for this statement.
TE's alleged health claims should have been raised at their Baltimore BD prior proceedings. These alleged claims are nothing more than a woman claiming Mois Uleiy where the BD is required to call on her and her family a Cheirem to say the truth. (See Shulcahn Aruch Even Huezer Siman 77. After the fact she has no trust. Its the biggest joke of the day
Rav Moshe is the only one known to have written a Tshuva, I have asked his family and close talmidim and was told that he never did it in practice, so saying he did it a number of times creates a big stir to check up on, and besides, he was the only one to have opened this issue in his Teshuva when not a single other Rav in the last 100 years had done or said it is allowed. The Shmadanut has no Samchus at all as the Brisker Rav already proclaimed. And RNG is very left thinking, and this is a first time hearing that RDF had done such a thing together with RNG, this answers a lot of questions now. ANd now I am starting to think that maybe Rav G has some valid argument against this BD of RDF after all. This is all very distrubing news
Not sure I agree with your position of having to attend a BD when a hazmanah is sent. That is generally true, however, when as here the controversy had been adjudicated at the Baltimore BD where both TE and AF signed Star B., there should be no obligation on him to go again to a BD, no matter who the BD is, (Going on his own free will is another story). It is no different than me and you having a Din Torah on a $1000, submitting to BD A, signing Star B., the we get a psak that I am unhappy with, so I decide to send you a Hazmanah from another BD. This is exactly what TE did after the Baltimore BD and now she will win if he has to go.
Althogh Purim is around the corner, together with the time of v'nohafoch hue, Mr Gazian aint willing to play along with the truth, even now :) http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/02/kaminetsky-greenblatt-heter-news-and.html#comment-2546492729
Being a talmid chuchom to answer shaalos is not everything, applying it in the right way is. I have only one question to you: If writing a birur is so so easy then why don't we see this with Rabunim today? In prior generations when there was no Otzar Haposkim or Otzar Hachochma all Rabunim used to write Teshuvas which was debated at length. Nowdays that we have all these digital libraries that you make it sound so easy should take away every excuse from the Rabunim. Besides this is it really this easy to write a Teshuva? Just try since you sound like a person above average mind...
Have not seen that Seifer, when was it published and what is it about? I guess if any Rabunim cared to write teshuvas on the subject the public would have heard about it by now. The silence is deafening.
ספר משפטי ישראל איסור הליכה לבתי משפט ולבתי הדין הרבניים הפועלים לפי חוקי המדינה : קיצור הלכות כפיית גיטין והליכה לערכאותhttp://www.otzar.org/wotzar/book.aspx?177061&
עיונים במשפט מהר"ש שאנן אה"ע סי"ד בשם הגר"מ שטרנבוך והגר"מ גרוס
אוצר הפוסקים כרך י"ג עמ' 226 בשם הגר"י אברמסקי
ביה"ד הרבני האזורי בחיפה תיק 870175/4 בשם הגר"ש פישר הגר"ח צימבליסט
What rav Moshe's family says is irrelevant. Rav Moshe published his unequivocal hetter in Igros in a number of tshuvos. These were not written as theoretical theses. They were written l'halacha about real cases.
The previous hetter of RNG was not done together with RDF. It was done with his post-facto approval.
Being a talmid chuchom to answer shaalos is not everything, applying it in the right way is. Right, and the ability to bring "mounds of mekoros" isn't either everything especially in today's world with all the Otzros.
Why don't rabbanim write "birurim" today. Excellent question. I guess you haven't visited a sefarim store in the past few decades.
You suggest that I should try. Actually, the point wasn't about me. You don't know who I am, so how do you know how many teshuvos I have or haven't written?
The point was about the attitude of Rav G. He thinks that he could talk with such denigration against people far greater than he. And how do I know that they are greater than he? Because they answer shaylos in 4 chelkei Sh A, while he is at best an expert in Hilchos Gittin (like RNG). So that makes them greater, even with his "mounds of mekoros".
But to issue secret directives and statements with no birur is basically nothing in today's day and age, Rabunim must provide coverage for their positions. So far there has been a high number of posole gittin in the last 20 years, who has fought them? Please cite names of Rabunim who have gone to lengths to fight them openly and who have issued a birur to decry the bogus birurim of Matirim-Maskilim
Let's move aside the point of denigration, I will answer that once all other issues have been tackled. What I meant about a birur is, let's see a single birur by any Rav on any of the Posole Gittin parashos in the last 20 years to show why the Get is posol and that they must separate, and this without requiring the husband to give a Get when he is not obliged too or worse yet Assur to give while they live together.
You have stated in previous posts: Hafkuas Kidushin was never used before except by RCYB, never used in practice by any Gedoilim in the Litvish velt nor by any Chassidsh Gedoilim. You stated: Rav Moshe is the only one known to have written a Tshuva, I have asked his family and close talmidim and was told that he never did it in practice, so saying he did it a number of times creates a big stir to check up on, and besides, he was the only one to have opened this issue in his Teshuva when not a single other Rav in the last 100 years had done or said it is allowed.
Now you are changing this to: no one was ever matir in a case similar to AF's. I agree to that, but that is far from your previous assertions. BH it's never too late to learn.
Rabbi Shalom K. did not show up? Hee did not show up with a toan - ROTFL! - ? Was his toan Eric/Efrayim Goldfein? Why not? Besides, why does a pikeach like Rav Shalom need a toen?
No what I meant was no one did it on any case even close to what we see. BTW only the Rabbanut did it, and of course Reb Moshe. ANd I was referring more to pre-war era
That's true, but my point was that after reading that sefer you will see that Rav G. isn't the only one decrying these gittin, contrary to Moshe Abramson's previous assertion. It's just that Rav G.is the only one who has made it his mission in life, and the single yardstick by which he measures the greatness of a talmid chacham. Which is of course convenient for his ego, allowing him to consider himself far superior than individuals far more learned than he just because they don't agree with his agenda, or because they once gave some psak that he found out (from one-sided information) was a get me'usah by his standards. Sort of similar to what gives every Satmarer a feeling of moral superiority to many talmidei chachamim and tzadikim because they don't visit the Kosel, don't vote in Israeli elections, and don't use the sefarim published by Mosad Harav Kook.
Yes but rav sholom Kaminetsky did attend, so there was no need to inconvenience rav miller, as to what transpired, this is what I heard , that based on a new angel presented by rav sholom, reb dovid is leaningbin favour of the hetter, as it's almost the same as on ofbreb Moishe's teshuvoth
A point that Rav G makes is that At this point AF may not give a get, his reasoning being that as long as there are outstanding issues concerning custody the get is considered m'usah. This is somewhat perplexing considering this case. Once TE has remarried and for all intents and purposes doesn't see any point in receiving a get (even if her rabbinic advisors may tell her it's still a good idea if attainable), how can this be considered meusah??
First let's answer a different question: how would this be considered a me'usah? No one is forcing AF to give the get.
The basic definition of "me'usah" is that the husband was coerced against his will to give a get. The debate over what constitutes coercion is the trigger of rabbi G's battle. Some poskim hold that whenever a wife takes any measure against the husband's will and then demands a get, we have to suspect that this was a veiled form of coercion. This can no longer be the case being that TE is no longer demanding a get.
Silver Spring is seemingly one of America's most feministic towns, first they supported the Mund Chin Znus, and now supporting the Greenblatt-Kamentsky-Epstein Znus
Me'usah, at its most basic definition, means that the husband is giving the get because of the force used against him. If the husband was shamed and defamed years ago, and still refused to give a get, and three years later he shows up and wants to give a get, is there any way to link his current willingness to the long-past shaming and defaming?
although the shiur is in yiddish, one can see that Rabbi Gestetner is not afraid to speak out. He ridicules the Bais Din of Dovid Feinstein that was set up for the main purpose of exonarating Kaminetsky for the eshes ish that he permitted to remarry.
ReplyDeleteWow! I haven't heard such a powerful speech in years. הה״ד ולמוחיכים ינעם ועליהם תבא ברכת טוב שפתים ישק משיב דברים נחוכים. I am a bit uncomfortable with his calling everyone shkutzim. He does defend Friedman B"H.
ReplyDeleteואשברה מתלעות עול ומשיניו אשליך טרף.
I am very impressed with R' Gestetner.
That would be Rabbi Dovid Feinstein. He doesn't ridicule Rabbi Feinstein. You should be careful the way you speak, before I put you as well into "Internet Cherem".
ReplyDeleteI've already stated my opinion of Rav Gestetner's shiur elsewhere on this blog. Now that I saw that there is a post about it I pasted it here.
ReplyDeleteNote how he makes a point that "WE" were the first to expose the hetter - everyone else woke up only later. And "they" - meaning almost the entire rabbinic establishment besides Rav Gestetner - only opposed it to show how machmir they are in order to justify their terrible actions in gittin.
This man has serious issues. He has made kefiyah bget his reason d'etre, and sees the world in terms of those who agree to his agenda and those that don't.
He criticizes Rav Shloime Miller, who is one of the greatest talmidei chachamim and poskim in North America, and one of the most vocal opponents of the hetter, of doing everything to make a name for himself.
The tactical maneuvers he reads into Rav Miller's letters are so far removed from Rav Miller's demeanor. Rav Miller is someone who has very little understanding of political maneuvers.
But Rav Gestetner has a problem. He can't bear that people who he has criticized in the past for not seeing eye to eye with his agenda have "hijacked" a campaign that should have been his. This is a repeated theme in his drashos.
Sorry, Rav Gestetner, you need to understand one basic concept: Calling great rabbanim names and denigrating people of stature will not make you any more chashuv. Just sit and learn, master 4 chelkei Shulchan Aruch, and act with middos of a talmid chacham, and you will earn the respect of the tzibbur. You won't have to speak against "Miller" and "Belsky", etc. to make yourself great.
And one more point: What in the world were you thinking when you advised AF not to go? You assumed that RDF is most certainly going to pasken mutar, that you don't want AF to have any part in the proceedings? Or because you were afraid that they might persuade him (not force him which he can simply avoid by not signing shtar berurin) to give a get?
If you had a parsha in matrimonial issues, you might see where he is coming from. ..try to hear him out. As far as sitting and learning daled chelka Shulchan Aruch, he brings mounds of mekoros to all his assertions, to which his opponents only have to say, " We don't hold of him"....
ReplyDeleteYes, it is true that although she was "freed,or more like hefker, for a year (possibly two,nobody said anything - even Rav Shlomo Miller, until she got married. Guess, although people were afraid to speak up (as one dayan told me that if I protest "they will laugh at you that you are starting up with the gadol hador " ), once she got "married,facing the potential destruction of Klal Yisroel, ch"v, that was set in motion, was too much to bear.....okay, granted, perhaps he was not the only one, the Eidensohns were also there before everybody took that position. ....
Further listening to his talk, there were problems with the gittin involved with R Belsky and even Rav Shlomo Miller, but trying to be brief. .....
Rabbi gestetner is not afraid to speak the truth. I once asked him why he berates talmidei chachomim,and he replied that if a rabbi does a private sin thats one thing,but when rabbonim are making halacha rulings which cause the public to sin, then its a mitzva to publicly ridicule them. No rabbinic authority has been able to outwit/win him with a halachic battle,but instead try to say "we dont hold of him" . That is a weak argument. Rabbi Gestetner has spent many years studing hilchot Gittin and he wont tolerate feminist leaning rabbonim to twist the Torah. He is upset thst instead of focusing on the wrong doing against AF and focusing on TF , they instead are looking for ways to clear kaminetsky.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/02/washington-area-rabbis-have-shunned.html#comment-2543473798
ReplyDeleteAnd Reb Reuven Feinstein even used him for his grandson's (Weiss against Dodelson) parsha! (At least his grandson himself used him........)...
ReplyDeleteHis points were right on.
ReplyDelete1. He is not obligated/allowed to give a get, just to allow her to stay married to this guy, who she is not allowed to stay married to anyway.
2. Psak in secret is not real. If you want to give a Psak with open mkoros, fine. To give a Psak and have it hidden, and not tell anyone why, is a joke. Either come out and say why you were Mattir this aishes ish, or the Psak doesn't exist.
3. People are more concerned that the end justifies the means, than the Halacha.
If you care about the Halacha, you should be defending Friedman who halachically is obviously within his rights. We should all be standing up for him and his reputation. Not for reputations. Not RSK in this case, Not for RNG, not for what your perception as to what is best for klal Yisroel, only for the Halacha. AF doesn't owe her a get, and he has been totally railroaded. It is R' Gestetner's opinion that all that this new BD wants to do is further railroad this poor guy, so why should he be showing up at all ? So people can say that he is crazy ?
I think that perhaps AF should go to BD by RDF, and have R' Gestetner as his Toen.
Morainu V'Rabbeinu HaRav Gestener shlita is the most authoratative source in America when it comes to inyunei gittin.
ReplyDeleteI didn't quite catch what he was claiming R' Miller's new position to resolve this is, and what "shach" in Y.D. he is referring to. If anyone did, please clarify.
ReplyDeleteNews just in, huge argument between RDF, RHD and rav sendorovitch
ReplyDeleteI think he was referring to another parsha where Harav Miller's position was that once a Rav pasken's a heter then it is kosher bdieved (if I understood it correctly)
ReplyDeleteWho said so? is that your own opinion?
ReplyDeleteDoes he really call everyone Shkutzim? did I miss something? was it in this weeks shiur?
ReplyDeleteSo what?
ReplyDeletePeople may have different opinions on different matters.
I disagree on one thing, Harav G may be wrong for all I know, but he is also right on one thing by asking that the Rabunim as big as they are to issue a birur on what they say and do. They cannot issue blank checks claiming to be a godul allow them to do whatever they want.
ReplyDeleteIf they are right then let them commit pen to paper and let everyone know their position (right or wrong).
Throught the prior generations Gedoilim have always written their positions while others disagreed. But do issue statements without showing why and on what it is based, is certainly not the way Gedoilim used to behave.
Meeting will reconvene on Thursday, Rabbi shlomo miller of Toronto will be in attendance
ReplyDeleteI think I saw that a while ago on his Kuntres on the forced get of Avrohom Rubin, where Rabbi Miller said on R Shafran that chochom mah she'osoh, osuy .........despite the overwhelming evidence and arguments to the contrary.
ReplyDeleteIs anybody anyone acceptable according to Rav Gestetner? Is anyone acceptable period? He seems to not forget what any one individual did wrong in the field of Ishus, he doesn't let this no get situation let him forget about when the issue was just gittin pesuli,n but then again, why should anyone forget?
So what? People who go by 'the establishment' as their yardstick, thus desiring to consider Rav Gestetner 'out of whack', especially if he is going against Rav Dovid Feinstein, should know - *on their terms,* that he was used with some type of haskamah from Reb Reuven....
ReplyDeleteNathan, we are all eyes and ears, but the truth, please. ...
ReplyDeleteYou obviously are oblivious to the world of gittin. If you would understand the severity of the sin of what these phony rabbis are doing you would understand why RG denigrates them . In fact the Chofetz Chaim also denigrated a rabbi who tried to be matir eshes ish! The torah expects people to stand up and ridicule the evil. I assume that you havent woken up yet and see what type of reformadox destruction, kaminetsky, Belsky and the gang have committed. It just happens to be that RG is the only one that is willing to put his reputation on the line. Instead of ridiculing him, show us the readers where in Halocho he errs. Basically put up or shut up!
ReplyDeleteRav Shlomo Miller officially paskened that Avraham Rubin's physically coerced Get in the 1990's was not Me'usa? And the reason was because someone had previously ruled it is valid? Who ruled it valid before Rav Miller? Who is Rabbi Shafran? And where did you learn all this and where is this kuntres you refer to?
ReplyDeleteIn which case did Rav Miller take that position?
ReplyDeletefor those of you who are in doubt if RG can ridicule other rabbis violating hilchos gittin, please read :
ReplyDeletehttp://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2014/08/rambam.html
What the argument/s about ? and is it a 3-way arguement or two against one (in which case it would be correct to go by the majority with the Halocho of Achrei Rabim L"hatois majority)
ReplyDeleteThe above comment stemming from https://disqus.com/by/rapcommentary/? is not from me the original RaP, thanks, the hackers are very busy.
ReplyDeleteI do not know Rabbi Gestetner and have never commented about him.
And I may add to one of your comments that IMHO, what is best for Klal Yisroel is that the RSK Sr and Jr and RNG both apologize to AF. ....and *ironically*, THAT. ....will also improve their reputations! ....
ReplyDeleteReb Reuven did not go to him. Others in teh family did, because they were sent to him, without ever checking out his reputation. Others who got involved later saw going to Gestetner as a foolish and very harmful error.
ReplyDeleteAs I noted above, that is an incorrect assumption.
ReplyDeleteRav Gestetner is right in the point you make, as well as in a number of other points he makes. My comments were not intended as a condonement of the hetter, nor of the way these individuals acted.
ReplyDeleteRather, they were directed at Rav Gestetner's methods of fighting the hetter. The way to fight it is not by denigrating those that are fighting it.
Additionally, his advice to AF is beyond me. If we assume that this BD is acting in good faith, what sense would there be in obstructing their coming to a true conclusion based on the maximum amount of evidence available? This is about as close to intimidation of a witness as you can get.
The only explanation for this is that he has made the presumptuous assertion that this BD is here only to kasher the hetter and save face for RNG and RSK. From whence hath he divined this? Does someone else suffer from PPD as well?
His points were right on.
ReplyDeleteSome.
1. He is not obligated/allowed to give a get,
He is not. Is that a reason that AF should not appear at all? No one will force him to give a get as long as he doesn't sign shtarei berurin.
Let him come, allow the BD to learn more about the case, allow the BD to be more convinced that he is not meshuga lchol davar, allow the BD to know that this was never a case of iggun.
If they try to convince him on his own terms to give a get, what's wrong with that? Does anybody think that he may not give a get if he is convinced that it is for his benefit?
2. Psak in secret is not real. If you want to give a Psak with open mkoros, fine. To give a Psak and have it hidden, and not tell anyone why, is a joke. Either come out and say why you were Mattir this aishes ish, or the Psak doesn't exist.
100%
3. People are more concerned that the end justifies the means, than the Halacha. If you care about the Halacha, you should be defending Friedman who halachically is obviously within his rights. We should all be standing up for him and his reputation. Not for reputations. Not RSK in this case, Not for RNG, not for what your perception as to what is best for klal Yisroel, only for the Halacha.
It's not either-or. There are many things to take into account. Kvod HaTorah and Kvod Gedolei Yisrael are very important yesodos upon which Torah Judaism is built . Albeit they are sometimes misused by certain interested parties, that doesn't make them any less important. Any dayan sitting on such a case must take these into account.
AF doesn't owe her a get, and he has been totally railroaded. It is R' Gestetner's opinion that all that this new BD wants to do is further railroad this poor guy, so why should he be showing up at all ? So people can say that he is crazy?
See previous comment
I think that perhaps AF should go to BD by RDF, and have R' Gestetner as his Toen.
If that's what it takes, great idea!
Here is what transpired at the meeting in MTJ
ReplyDeleteR sholom Kaminetsky was invited to attend and did not show up, then a disagreement ensued as to how and if to proceed, RDF and RHD vs RS , RS argued that the majority wins only in final outcome, on procedural issues things need to be unanimous, it's was decided to bring rav miller in from Toronto to decide the issue
Rav miller has agreed to attend, provided his letter head will be used in any announcement or correspondence
I know where he's coming from; I've been involved in more than one matrimonial parsha. He has some valid points, and sometimes he's the only one who will go out for something right. However, denigrating other rabbanim far greater than him is not the way to gain respect. Mounds of mekoros are nothing more than an indication of a better-than-average mind coupled by an Otzar Haposkim and an Otzar Hachochma. Can he be available to answer every sho'el in 4 chelkei ShA, like Rav Shloime Miller and lbclc Rav Belsky?
ReplyDeleteYou assert That Rav Gestetner was the first to speak up about it. The fact is that he only wrote his letter at the end of Tishrei, while The Baltimore BD and Rav Nissim's BD already wrote in the previous summer that she is an eishes ish. Until then, it was difficult to go out against a hetter that no one knew what it was based on. The Kams were not forthcoming on this, not to a reporter, and not to Rav A Feldman & Schuchatowitz when they approached him (when he wrote "I was never mattir".) Only after she got married in Memphig by RNG did it become clear who is the mattir and what it was based on. This has nothing to do with fear.
I think you got a mix up here.
ReplyDeleteThere is a kuntres about that parsha from Rav G, in there he describes who Rav Shafran is and the heter around is. Rav Shafran is a known Rav in Bnei Brak and seemingly involved in problematic Gittin.
What Rav G said this week seems to imply that Rav M had said the problematic Get was ok because Rav Shafran said so.
The link is bad
ReplyDeleteNothing there.
ReplyDeleteIMHO there is no need for the bais din to convene and argue, all they need is issue a birur and let everyone see what they base their psak on.
ReplyDeleteMund-Chin (Rubin)
ReplyDeleteI meant to say that even if Rav Feinstein's own family used Rav G for a Get issue, they may still have differing opinions on other issues. You don't get bound to Rav G's opinion because you agreed with him once. Rabbonim have always had differing halachic opinions, the only diff was that they always used to write their tshuva or birur, where nowadays it's all secrets or non-existent because they are afraid it will get scrutinised by others or the public.
ReplyDeleteWell if you listen to his shiur you may realize that he makes a point about those who fight the Heter, that when there are Posule Gittin they are nowhere to be found, and that the way they fight seems to condone or allow such things to pass. I am not saying he is right or wrong but he makes a point nonethless
ReplyDeleteWhat I hear Rav G saying is that if AF goes there it:
ReplyDelete1) gives credence to the Bais Din, so whatever they say they have AF's approval;
2) even if they say the Heter was invalid, if they tell AF give a Get nonetheless, then they have again allowed such a Heter to pass, putting the blame on AF instead of the Heter.
3) why do they need AF, when all they need to do is come out and say there was no way for the Heter. In other words he is saying that if the BAis Din still has any Sofek on the Heter then something is very wrong here.
4) the fact that a Bais Din can debate the Heter and debate over AF giving a Get now, while not coming out publicly to proclaim the treif union of Epstein and her Boel, and to say they must separate for ever, shows something fundamentally wrong.
He makes other points but I do not recall them now, I only listened once.
BTW Hafkuas Kidushin was never used before except by RCYB, never used in practice by any Gedoilim in the Litvish velt nor by any Chassidsh Gedoilim. And BPD or PPD were not invented yesterday, and this alleged case of PPD is not the first in the community.
ReplyDeleteBesides PPD and all other psychological so called disorders are very debatable and for a Rav to annul a marriage based on this is beyond comprehension.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make: He is using this story to denigrate people much greater than he, who are open about their position on this issue of kefiyah, by saying that as long as they don't agree with him about his life's campaign, then all their kano'us is nothing more than self-promotion (as opposed to him who is a beacon of humility and self-negation).
ReplyDeleteBkitzur this issue of kegiyah bget has become the way to make him the modren-day version of Rabbenu Yoel.
I agree. I am not sure why anyone should not go to any Beis Din that sends a hazmana ?? I am not sure the justification of R' Gestetner, telling AF not to go. Let him go and have a qualified Toen. Not going to a Beis din that sends a hazmana should never be tolerated, unless one chooses Zabla.
ReplyDeleteAs far as kavod of the gedolim, I am not sure it applies here. The Psak of mamzer or not mamzer will have to be paskened. Regardless of who it may offend. You can't be Mattir a mamzer to placate anyone's kavod. RDF won't be Mattir her, just because.
Anyone else caught on to the fact that R' Gestetner also mentioned 4 or 5 other cases of mamzerim
What is the significance of R' Miller's letterhead?
ReplyDeletethere was no hazmana just a request to please come voluntarily
ReplyDeleteThat is not what I have heard . It was used and is used by both Litvish and Chassidic poskim
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, but that's how rav miller wants it, I guess maybe to give the benei Torah the confidence that since he's involved all will run according to halacha
ReplyDelete1. Was AF and/or TE invited to attend since (after all) the discussion is in regard to AF (and he can show in person, if he's crazed or OCD, or not !) ?
ReplyDelete2. Were Shtorei Birrurin signed by both sides, and if its true that no shtorei birrurin were signed, is it legal and legitimate for a BD to be dan evidence without permission of the person involved ?
3. If no shtorei birrurin were signed does TE and her new Husband have to abide by the psak and order of Reb Dovis"s Bais Din ? And, does Reb Nota Shlita have to abide by the new Bais Din's psak ?
4. Does the BD have the rights and permission to review the reports from the Psychologists without permission of AF ? Will the 1st and 2nd psychologist be interviewed (that are alluded to in Reb Sholom's letter ? Will the BD commission another report (a second opinion) and a Doctor's interview with AF ?
5. Can AF claim he signed shtorei birrurin with the Baltimore BD, and they have already paskened that the mekach tous is not legit ? And therefore, the new BD of Reb Dovid has no koach ... and its psak has no legitimacy ?
6. Will the diary of Tamar which is pretty much contradicts the Psychologists report be allowed into BD as evidence ? And the eidus of the dayanim of the Baltimore BD that never did Tamar claim that AF is crazed ? And, all the ?'s of Rabbi A. Feldman in his Letter, can they be brought into Reb Dovid's BD ?
Are the cases where it was used by both Litvish and Chassidic poskim publicly known or a teshuva written?
ReplyDelete1) How does a layman's appearing before a BD of gedolei rabbanim give them credence?
ReplyDelete2) He can just let them know before appearing that he is only coming if a get is not within their jurisdiction. With that, they will not be able to pasken anything about a get. They may be able to negotiate over it, though.
3) Why they need him is anybody's guess. They are learned people who are trying to do due process in coming to a true conclusion. (Can you believe that?) In fact, the BD doesn't necessarily need AF for their own conclusion. They may need him to make their psak as foolproof as possible to convince the matirim, so that they will not have a pischon peh to say "You haven't seen all the evidence, therefore your psak is flawed".
4) There is no need for them to come out publicly. There have been enough proclamations to that effect.
The couple is still together, simply because their halachic advisors (RSK and RNG) haven't been won over by the osrim, claiming that the osrim have not seen and heard all the evidence. If this BD were to declare that the couple must separate before hearing all the evidence, they would be disqualifying themselves in the eyes of RSK and RNG.
This BD may be the last opportunity to corner the matirim into conceding that an objective panel has reviewed all the evidence and decided that the hetter is a mistake.
To advise AF not to appear before the BD is tantamount to discarding this final opportunity to get the couple to separate. The only one who can advise AF not to appear is someone who really doesn't care if they separate.
It was used by Rav Moshe a number of times. It was used in the Rabbanut in a panel including Rav Shloime Fisher. It was used once before by RNG with the approval of RDF.
ReplyDeleteI am not a fan of those who withhold gittin, and less a fan of their rebellious wives. I believe that anyone who doesn't go to RDF, and is requested to go by RDF, should be put in Cherem. Just how I feel.
ReplyDeleteHe should go. He should definitely have either you, or rabbi Gestetner at his side. This lack of BD that operate correctly is the biggest problem of this generation.
BTW, has anyone ruled on those who remarried based on Epstein's torture gitten, and whether they need new gittin ? Mamzerim ?
It amazes me, with such an emphasis on learning, there is no such emphasis on establishing credible BD, in each city.
אל תלשן עבד אל אדוניו פן יקללך ואשמת ... דור טהור בעיניו ומצואתו לא רוחץ
דור חרבות שיניו ומאכלות מתלעותיו לאכול עניים מארץ ואביונים מאדם
Can you please give an example of a case? I am not talking about Emanuel Rackman's cases
ReplyDeleteWell, can you please show one single birur of any Rav (other than RG) in the last 10 years for or against Gittun Psilin?
ReplyDeleteexcellent points - and apparently not on the agenda of this beis din
ReplyDeleteAF was invited, and indeed attented yesterdays meeting
ReplyDeleteAharon Friedman says your claim is false
ReplyDeleteIf you still believe that NG and RSK will give way, then you are misleading yourself. They will always find a reason to justify what they did, (As long as the Rabunim will not openly decry the Matirim, and the boalim to be excommunicated from the Klal).
ReplyDeleteThey will always say that the BD did not see everything.
Have the BD anonymously send a psychologist to talk with AF (without his knowledge of course) in a casual way, it needs not a rocket scientist to find out he is normal.
BTW please read Harav Rominimk's letter posted elsewhere today, it answers most of your questions.
There is also no reason to negotiate a Get from AF, he has a heter to remarry and using a Get as a tool to get the matirim to revert makes no sense and actually plays into what Rav G has been arguing all along.
Although I hear your point quite well that the BD needs to convince the Matirim to retract their position, this is where the problem lies and I think this is what Rav G is decrying.
Is he denying being invited
ReplyDeletePsak in secret is not real. If you want to give a Psak with open mkoros,
ReplyDeletefine. To give a Psak and have it hidden, and not tell anyone why, is a
joke. Either come out and say why you were Mattir this aishes ish, or
the Psak doesn't exist.
No doubt you yourself have mekoros for your statement that a psak given in secret, without mekoros publicized, is "not real" and "a joke" and "does not exist." Kindly provide your mekoros for this statement.
TE's alleged health claims should have been raised at their Baltimore BD prior proceedings. These alleged claims are nothing more than a woman claiming Mois Uleiy where the BD is required to call on her and her family a Cheirem to say the truth. (See Shulcahn Aruch Even Huezer Siman 77. After the fact she has no trust. Its the biggest joke of the day
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe is the only one known to have written a Tshuva, I have asked his family and close talmidim and was told that he never did it in practice, so saying he did it a number of times creates a big stir to check up on, and besides, he was the only one to have opened this issue in his Teshuva when not a single other Rav in the last 100 years had done or said it is allowed.
ReplyDeleteThe Shmadanut has no Samchus at all as the Brisker Rav already proclaimed.
And RNG is very left thinking, and this is a first time hearing that RDF had done such a thing together with RNG, this answers a lot of questions now.
ANd now I am starting to think that maybe Rav G has some valid argument against this BD of RDF after all.
This is all very distrubing news
Not sure I agree with your position of having to attend a BD when a hazmanah is sent.
ReplyDeleteThat is generally true, however, when as here the controversy had been adjudicated at the Baltimore BD where both TE and AF signed Star B., there should be no obligation on him to go again to a BD, no matter who the BD is, (Going on his own free will is another story).
It is no different than me and you having a Din Torah on a $1000, submitting to BD A, signing Star B., the we get a psak that I am unhappy with, so I decide to send you a Hazmanah from another BD. This is exactly what TE did after the Baltimore BD and now she will win if he has to go.
May I respectfully ask what is your Mareh Mukom for the following statement?
ReplyDelete"I am not a fan of those who withhold gittin, and less a fan of their rebellious wives."
And
"I believe that anyone who doesn't go to RDF, and is requested to go by RDF, should be put in Cherem. Just how I feel."
I disagree, it is not AF's kuvod here, it is Kvud Shumayim that comes first.
ReplyDeleteThe sefer Mishpatei Yisrael contains numerous statements from various rabbis against invalid kfiyah.
ReplyDeletebut the truth, please. ...
ReplyDeleteAlthogh Purim is around the corner, together with the time of v'nohafoch hue, Mr Gazian aint willing to play along with the truth, even now :)
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/02/kaminetsky-greenblatt-heter-news-and.html#comment-2546492729
sorry yudelstake removed it
ReplyDeleteI posted the letter of Rav Greenblatt that says that
ReplyDeleteHe was asked to come - as been stated a number of times already. But contrary to your report he has not gone
ReplyDeleteHe plays like RNG and RSK, a true "Talmid hamachkim es Rabboi"!
ReplyDeleteBeing a talmid chuchom to answer shaalos is not everything, applying it in the right way is.
ReplyDeleteI have only one question to you:
If writing a birur is so so easy then why don't we see this with Rabunim today?
In prior generations when there was no Otzar Haposkim or Otzar Hachochma all Rabunim used to write Teshuvas which was debated at length.
Nowdays that we have all these digital libraries that you make it sound so easy should take away every excuse from the Rabunim.
Besides this is it really this easy to write a Teshuva? Just try since you sound like a person above average mind...
Have not seen that Seifer, when was it published and what is it about?
ReplyDeleteI guess if any Rabunim cared to write teshuvas on the subject the public would have heard about it by now.
The silence is deafening.
ספר משפטי ישראל
ReplyDeleteאיסור הליכה לבתי משפט ולבתי הדין הרבניים הפועלים לפי חוקי המדינה : קיצור הלכות כפיית גיטין והליכה לערכאותhttp://www.otzar.org/wotzar/book.aspx?177061&
I see you have not done your homework.
ReplyDeletePlease see:
הר צבי אה"ע ח"ב סי' ק"פ-קפא
ושם בשם המהרש"ם
עיונים במשפט מהר"ש שאנן אה"ע סי"ד בשם הגר"מ שטרנבוך והגר"מ גרוס
אוצר הפוסקים כרך י"ג עמ' 226 בשם הגר"י אברמסקי
ביה"ד הרבני האזורי בחיפה תיק 870175/4 בשם הגר"ש פישר הגר"ח צימבליסט
What rav Moshe's family says is irrelevant. Rav Moshe published his unequivocal hetter in Igros in a number of tshuvos. These were not written as theoretical theses. They were written l'halacha about real cases.
The previous hetter of RNG was not done together with RDF. It was done with his post-facto approval.
Being a talmid chuchom to answer shaalos is not everything, applying it in the right way is.
ReplyDeleteRight, and the ability to bring "mounds of mekoros" isn't either everything especially in today's world with all the Otzros.
Why don't rabbanim write "birurim" today. Excellent question. I guess you haven't visited a sefarim store in the past few decades.
You suggest that I should try. Actually, the point wasn't about me. You don't know who I am, so how do you know how many teshuvos I have or haven't written?
The point was about the attitude of Rav G. He thinks that he could talk with such denigration against people far greater than he. And how do I know that they are greater than he? Because they answer shaylos in 4 chelkei Sh A, while he is at best an expert in Hilchos Gittin (like RNG). So that makes them greater, even with his "mounds of mekoros".
I hope you comprehend my point.
But to issue secret directives and statements with no birur is basically nothing in today's day and age, Rabunim must provide coverage for their positions.
ReplyDeleteSo far there has been a high number of posole gittin in the last 20 years, who has fought them?
Please cite names of Rabunim who have gone to lengths to fight them openly and who have issued a birur to decry the bogus birurim of Matirim-Maskilim
Where can I buy it?
ReplyDeleteYou're still having trouble finding the Mishpatei Yisrael?
ReplyDeleteI haven't looked yet in stores, my local store did not know of it, is there any store in Boro Park you know of that has it?
ReplyDeleteLet's move aside the point of denigration, I will answer that once all other issues have been tackled.
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant about a birur is, let's see a single birur by any Rav on any of the Posole Gittin parashos in the last 20 years to show why the Get is posol and that they must separate, and this without requiring the husband to give a Get when he is not obliged too or worse yet Assur to give while they live together.
Is he schizophrenic?
ReplyDeleteMishpetai Yisroel backs Rav Gestetner am is also graced with a letter from him. ...
ReplyDeleteWe really agree . AF's kovod follows the main issue, no point in arguing....
ReplyDeleteIf so, is that a mum that the wife may ask for annulment?
ReplyDeleteYou have stated in previous posts: Hafkuas Kidushin was never used before except by RCYB, never used in practice by any Gedoilim in the Litvish velt nor by any Chassidsh Gedoilim.
ReplyDeleteYou stated: Rav Moshe is the only one known to have written a Tshuva, I have asked his family and close talmidim and was told that he never did it in practice, so saying he did it a number of times creates a big stir to check up on, and besides, he was the only one to have opened this issue in his Teshuva when not a single other Rav in the last 100 years had done or said it is allowed.
Now you are changing this to: no one was ever matir in a case similar to AF's. I agree to that, but that is far from your previous assertions. BH it's never too late to learn.
Rabbi Shalom K. did not show up? Hee did not show up with a toan - ROTFL! - ?
ReplyDeleteWas his toan Eric/Efrayim Goldfein? Why not? Besides, why does a pikeach like Rav Shalom need a toen?
No what I meant was no one did it on any case even close to what we see.
ReplyDeleteBTW only the Rabbanut did it, and of course Reb Moshe.
ANd I was referring more to pre-war era
Now that you mention it, I do recall that letter. That's not exactly what I would call a serious mekor, but okay.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but my point was that after reading that sefer you will see that Rav G. isn't the only one decrying these gittin, contrary to Moshe Abramson's previous assertion.
ReplyDeleteIt's just that Rav G.is the only one who has made it his mission in life, and the single yardstick by which he measures the greatness of a talmid chacham. Which is of course convenient for his ego, allowing him to consider himself far superior than individuals far more learned than he just because they don't agree with his agenda, or because they once gave some psak that he found out (from one-sided information) was a get me'usah by his standards.
Sort of similar to what gives every Satmarer a feeling of moral superiority to many talmidei chachamim and tzadikim because they don't visit the Kosel, don't vote in Israeli elections, and don't use the sefarim published by Mosad Harav Kook.
So? Did the Thursday meeting happen today?
ReplyDeleteYes but rav sholom Kaminetsky did attend, so there was no need to inconvenience rav miller, as to what transpired, this is what I heard , that based on a new angel presented by rav sholom, reb dovid is leaningbin favour of the hetter, as it's almost the same as on ofbreb Moishe's teshuvoth
ReplyDeleteA point that Rav G makes is that At this point AF may not give a get, his reasoning being that as long as there are outstanding issues concerning custody the get is considered m'usah.
ReplyDeleteThis is somewhat perplexing considering this case. Once TE has remarried and for all intents and purposes doesn't see any point in receiving a get (even if her rabbinic advisors may tell her it's still a good idea if attainable), how can this be considered meusah??
How does her unhalachic "remarriage" changes the Halacha as to whether it would be me'usa?
ReplyDeleteFirst let's answer a different question: how would this be considered a me'usah? No one is forcing AF to give the get.
ReplyDeleteThe basic definition of "me'usah" is that the husband was coerced against his will to give a get. The debate over what constitutes coercion is the trigger of rabbi G's battle.
Some poskim hold that whenever a wife takes any measure against the husband's will and then demands a get, we have to suspect that this was a veiled form of coercion. This can no longer be the case being that TE is no longer demanding a get.
The husband is being boycotted and shunned in his community, even today, until he gives a Get. So he is still under undue pressure right now.
ReplyDeleteGood point. The question is then: why are they?
ReplyDeleteAccording to my sources in Silver Spring, AF is now welcome in some shuls. He's the new "tzaddik".
Shame and defaming a person in public is clearly me'usa
ReplyDeleteSilver Spring is seemingly one of America's most feministic towns, first they supported the Mund Chin Znus, and now supporting the Greenblatt-Kamentsky-Epstein Znus
ReplyDeleteMe'usah, at its most basic definition, means that the husband is giving the get because of the force used against him.
ReplyDeleteIf the husband was shamed and defamed years ago, and still refused to give a get, and three years later he shows up and wants to give a get, is there any way to link his current willingness to the long-past shaming and defaming?