Thursday, May 9, 2013

Who does Rabbi Dov Lipman of Yesh Atid speak for? Part 3.


Guest Post by RaP.    Part 1 (February 14, 2013)      Part 2 (May 7, 2013)

Events are moving quickly on this topic. Rav Aron Feldman shlit"a the current Rosh HaYeshiva of the Ner Yisroel Yeshiva (NIRC) in Baltimore, Maryland, USA has issued a letter officially disassociating himself, NIRC and his predecessor Rav Yaakov Weinberg z'l from one of its alumni Rabbi Dov Lipman who also has his ordination from NIRC. On an audio recording Rabbi Feldman also condemned Lipman as a "rosha" (wicked) saying that Lipman was a "shona upiresh" (basically that Lipman had "gone off the derech" (OTD)) and compared him to "Amalek and Haman", see the post Rav Feldman says Rabbi Lipman's hashkofa's In return, Rabbi Lipman quickly responded (he obviously has mastered the art of rapid response, something perfected by "Team Clinton" in winning the media wars and gaining favor in public opinion out there) denying the validity of the gross insults ands asking for an apology, correctly so, but at the same time confirming that he is going by his own calculus with his own agenda, that in point of fact he accurately states he imbibed AS AN AMERICAN at NIRC, see Rabbi Lipman's response to Rav Aharon

It is very informative to read how Rabbi Lipman defends himself and how he justifies his positions, see the full article at Baltimore Jewish Life  that he addresses to the "Baltimore Jewish Community" and its worth an analysis:

It's now a "battle of the tapes" as an audio recording of something Lipman supposedly said became the subject of an audio recording from Rav Feldman posted online that denounces him. No actual discussion or meetings or simple phone calls have been made here. It is just one person playing recordings to another person who then makes a counter recording attacking the first recording, that then leads to articles and discussions online and in the media but so far the parties are not talking to each other but past each other. At times the Charedim scream in frustration and at other times they speak softly and make frightening declarations that are aimed at their opponents to dehumanize and demean them that will not solve problems but will only aggravate them. Nothing constructive is happening.

At least Lipman is honest when he says that "The [secular] Israeli government should not fund [Torah] institutions which don't teach basic math and English. Yeshivos which don't do so will not be closed down but they won't receive government funding." And as he rightly points out that "It should be pointed out that there are numerous yeshivos which already take zero government money and continue to flourish." The point here is simple and so far Charedim have not grasped it, THAT YOU CANNOT INSULT YOUR OPPONENTS AND THEN ASK THEM TO FORK OVER BILLIONS AS IF NOTHING HAPPENED! Charedim will have to stop asking secular Israelis for money and instead will have to come up with ways to support themselves independently. The Israeli government is a not a "frum tzedaka" it has enough jobs that it does for everyone, Charedim included, for free. It runs the army to protect all Jews. It builds runs the infrastructure like sewage and roads and lights and water and electricity and hospitals, it does not have enough to pay every unemployed person a full time "salary" for life for the best of reasons because that is a job for the Messianic Age (maybe) and there is just not enough money. Charedim must learn to do lots more good KIRUV and PR (just as Lipman has done for himself) to WIN OVER the secular Israelis to want to help them. So far all they are doing is yelling and now getting Charedim from America to join in the fray.

Lipman is not wrong in wanting to help Israelis learn something to get jobs. But who on Earth taught him that a bit of Math and English will help??? Isn't Israel in the Middle East?? Why not teach all Israelis Arabic to be able to connect and trade with the Arabs? What's so great about "English" of all things? What kind of "Zionism" is it when for so long Jews strove to learn Hebrew and now they should learn English? Israelis sound so awful when they speak English. It is just not their cup of tea. Why prepare them for yerida to America?! Lipman could help himself by saying that he is open to finding ways to help frum people get parnosa and it has NOTHING to do with either English OR math! The things Israelis learn and earn money from are stuff like truck driving, mechanics, engineering, computers and none of that really requires English it can ALL be learned in Ivrit. A frum Jew does not need to learn English or math to open a store, run a little business and buy and sell things. Basic arithmetic is part of Torah learning. Whatever else needs to be figured out there are gadgets that everyone can get. Lipman and Yesh Atid should stop pestering the Charedim and cut them loose. Stop focusing on them and talking about them. At some point it sounds like anti-Semitism to harp so much about what is wrong with the "Jews/Charedim" and it must stop!

Then Lipman makes his biggest mistake when his slip shows and he sound like the true Jewish day school boy from Silver Spring that he really is with his limited knowledge about the Torah world. No Chasidim and no Yeshiva people are ever going to limit themselves to "proposing that 1,800 elite Torah scholars per year be recognized as serving the state and the Jewish people through their Torah study" -- that is such a goyish idea and a suggestion that's just LAUGHABLE because no such concept exists in the Torah world.

Lipman and Yesh Atid have to realize that people are entitled to choose their own way in life, especially a religious way of life that Jews have practiced for thousands or hundreds of years. While many have become the "learners of Torah" many others become the "supporters of Torah" and this CANNOT and SHOULD NOT and WILL NEVER be put into "quotas" as if it was some sort of "think tank" since the world of Torah Judaism does not need the secular state of Israel to help it formulate notions about how to be better Torah Jews, it goes the other way around that on the spiritual plane the secular state of Israel needs the learners of Torah to sustain everyone and the world. Of course people should be able to have a decent job, but that is not something that either rabbis or politicians can force or legislate, it is something that SOCIETY effectuates and produces voluntarily and naturally and of course G-d Himself is the ultimate source of parnosa.

Lipman should have known that sooner or later he would be targeted by even higher rabbis, and it will not get any easier for him. He is right to protest the injustice of being compared in any way to "Haman" and "Amalek" and who can argue with his obviously painful words that "Comparing me or anyone in my party to Amalek and Haman who wanted to kill all Jews including 'children and women' is simply incomprehensible. We are going to help Chareidim sustain their families - literally feed their children - and we are compared to murderers???"

Lipman is right that he true to his creed and education at Ner Yisroel Yeshiva (NIRC) that was founded by Rav Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman zt"l and where college education for parnosa was not only allowed but encouraged!!! Not just at NIRC, but at many other famous yeshivas such as Torah Vodaas, Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin and many others today there are the yeshiva students who attend college part time and become professionals down the line. BUT NOT THE CHASIDISHA YESHIVOS, yet they too, in America allow a basic amount of secular studies in the elementary grades, so Lipman is right and now wants to bring this over to Israel.

For a long time Eretz Yisrael has resisted this trend and fought it as an inroad of the Haskala. There is a cherem in Yerushalayim against such education signed by past rabbis. But Lipman and thousands of FBC=Cool But Frum Charedi-educated men and women who have gone to college are finally defying the age-old Yerushalmi outlook, the very "New Charedim" who are being feared, and as their numbers increase they will succeed in setting up the kind of education they had in America to help their children because you can't take modern American Charedim and tell them they must now live like impoverished Yerushalmis. That was an old approach up to about 20 or 30 years ago.

Finally, what should really be noted is his last paragraph that shows that while Yesh Atid and Rabbi Lipman have positive ideas and want to do good KIRUV it leaves the Charedim mystified and in the dark fumbling to come up with a yet to be formulated response to things like this that sound like they came right out of an Aish HaTorah handbook:

"I would have never joined this party without meeting its leaders first and really understanding who they are and their intentions. The ministers and Knesset members in my party have no hate towards anyone and are not hoping that anyone becomes less religious. Yair Lapid openly declared that the religious side in Israel has shown the secular side that our basis to be in this land is G-d and our Tanach. The driving force behind our policies regarding the Chareidim is to generate unity and most importantly to get Chareidim to the work force. Money will be flowing to programs to help Chareidim get to work. My dream is to see the hi-tech corridors of Raanana, law and accounting firms in Tel Aviv, and government offices in Yerushalayim filled with Chareidim. Most young Chareidi young men are not cut out to learn Torah day and night for their entire lives and this will empower them to be Talmidei Chachamim, Bnei Torah, and also supporting their families with dignity. This will also have an immensely positive effect on Israeli society which will finally see the beautiful values and people in the Chareidi world. My e-mail in-box is filled with letters of support from Chareidim who say they finally see a future for their children - they will remain Chareidi but also not be impoverished. I must also note that our party started the first ever Beis Midrash for Knesset members in the history of the Knesset. Every Tuesday at 3:00p.m. we stop our busy schedules and sit in a committee room and learn Torah together - religious and secular MK's. Is this a group of people who deserve to be called reshayim, Haman, and Amalek?"

Can anyone point out what is wrong with anything here please ???????????

The Charedim must wake up or they will be left in the opposition for many years to come with the only thing left to them is screaming and tantruming in the Knesset and issuing all sorts of Kol Korehs and declarations that do not amount to a heap of beans and that have no teeth to them.

30 comments :

  1. I really wish you would be a bit more rigorous so that these posts might generate some real discussion
    -- The "quotas" refer to 2 things only: military service and the fact that the state will actively support a certain number of Lomdim. This has no connection to anyone's freedom of choice of lifestyle (besides the 2-3 yrs in the army)
    -- Dov Lipman has written, and many others (like myself) can testify, that without proper English/math skills the entry barriers to the modern workforce are insurmountable for a large percentage of people (most work training programs report at ~60% dropout rate).
    I think the saddest thing here is that if Dov Lipman is already Amalek, who will listen to us when they actually try to do REAL harm to the Yeshivos?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Recipients and PublicityMay 9, 2013 at 1:55 PM

      "LiveInIsrael said...I really wish you would be a bit more rigorous so that these posts might generate some real discussion"

      RaP: I assume that comment is meant for the blog owner who decides what to post and how long to keep each post in place before posting the next ones.

      "-- The "quotas" refer to 2 things only: military service and the fact that the state will actively support a certain number of Lomdim. This has no connection to anyone's freedom of choice of lifestyle (besides the 2-3 yrs in the army)"

      RaP: Realzie one thing, that Charedim will NEVER accept being forced into the Israeli army. In fact the Israeli army itself and the current Defense Minister Moshe Ayalon has said that to conscript people who do not want to be there is pointless and would cost too much. So it is a day-dream on the part of secular Israelis to imagine that hundreds of thousands of Charedim are going to become chayalim and chayalot in Tzahal soon because it just ain't gonna happen and the Chilonim need to get their mind around that. Chilonim must give up on their hope that they will conscript the Charedim and the Charedim must give their demands that the Chilonim must support them. Then there will be true PEACE, when they recognize those two points about each other's natures.

      "-- Dov Lipman has written, and many others (like myself) can testify, that without proper English/math skills the entry barriers to the modern workforce are insurmountable for a large percentage of people (most work training programs report at ~60% dropout rate)."

      RaP: Nonsense, this is thinking like a secular person. Chasidm often dont even know mush Ivrit since they talk Yiddish, in America and Britain they don't know English either because they make it compulsory to teach and live by Yiddish ONLY, yet many of them still manage to become millionaires and do everything else with minimal English words they pick up. They are not asking to be changed, and it is not Lipman's or anyone's job to change them. When was the last time anyone met a Chasidisha doctor or lawyer or accountant??? If yes, they are from the Litvish yeshiva world, but even there the anti-college trend is very strong, so why fight that kind of pointless battel that only gets their backs up makes them scream "nazi, nazi" or "amalek, amalek" etc. If one is Modern Orthodox there is no question they all go to college, but if one is Chasidish or very Charedi then secular studies is hot button issue that must be avoided. Anyone who does not get that will be wasting a lot of their time hitting their head against a steel concrete wall.

      "I think the saddest thing here is that if Dov Lipman is already Amalek, who will listen to us when they actually try to do REAL harm to the Yeshivos?"

      RaP: Nothing sad here. Dov Lipman has taken some way out stands and it was only matter of time until someone like Rav Feldman came out against him. What Lipman is proposing is pretty strong medicine and with radical changes. Lipman and Lapid are proposing a REVOLUTION and do not realize that in this case EVOLUTION is better and will be accomplished by TIME and not by either government decrees or by rabbis yelling.

      Delete
    2. yet many of them still manage to become millionaires and do everything else with minimal English words they pick up.-----only in the non professional fields of Real Estate, Storekeepers and Buyers and Sellers.

      Any Israeli Charedi student who enrolls in a Professional based education system without core skills falls on his face. I am one..who attended an above average NY MESIVTA and before entering graduate school (with the Yeshiva BA) had to go back to Brooklyn College to learn proper writing skills and advanced math. (was in class with secular high school students). Teachers were talented, professional and hard-workers.

      Delete
  2. I would like to ask if any Rabbis have ever had jobs in secular companies, which have a list of requirements and qualifications. If so, then they either got the job by fulfilling those requirements, or by getting in through the back door (e.g. brother in law). If you go for a job interview with the arithmetic you picked up in Yeshiva (eg 1+ 1 = 2, 7 x7 = 49) you will be laughed out.
    If the rabbis are correct that (as R Dessler claims) you do not really need to work, but have bitachon, then the Yeshivot would not have any financial problems.
    If on the other hand, the financial problems are real, then obviously R Dessler's concept does not meet empirical standards.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Recipients and PublicityMay 9, 2013 at 1:38 PM

      To Eddie 1 of 2:

      "Eddie says...I would like to ask if any Rabbis have ever had jobs in secular companies, which have a list of requirements and qualifications. If so, then they either got the job by fulfilling those requirements, or by getting in through the back door (e.g. brother in law). If you go for a job interview with the arithmetic you picked up in Yeshiva (eg 1+ 1 = 2, 7 x7 = 49) you will be laughed out.If the rabbis are correct that (as R Dessler claims) you do not really need to work, but have bitachon, then the Yeshivot would not have any financial problems. If on the other hand, the financial problems are real, then obviously R Dessler's concept does not meet empirical standards."

      Your assumption here seems to be that Charedim are all of one flavor which they are not. There are the very intense Yerushalmi type of Charedim, serious Chasidim, Sefardim and many Yeshivish people (ALL without secular training) who know NO or very little English or Math and have no interest in going on "job interviews" because they are part of a unique type of Jewish business world that has been around for millennia where intense Talmudic and Halachic training has sharpened their minds to the point that they have become cunning and shrewd enough with street smarts to take on the toughest wheeler dealers in buying and selling almost anything. If you have not met such Charedim then you do not know anything about Charedim.

      Charedim are not asking to be "fixed" or "educated", they are asking to be LEFT ALONE in peace. It is unfortunate that they have become reliant of government funds since as you or someone has pointed out, in the past in Poland or Russia or Morocco, they got NO money from governments (no one did, it was BEFORE the concepts of SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM and the welfare state were around) but what the frum of those times did have was the RELIGIOUS freedom to run their own lives with varying degrees of FREEDOM OF COMMERCE and they were successful enough to take care of Jewish poor and needy through plentiful tzedakas.

      Delete
    2. Recipients and PublicityMay 9, 2013 at 1:38 PM

      To Eddie: 2 of 2:

      It's a secular idea that people need 12 years of secular childhood schooling and then 4 years of secular college university and then on top of that another 3 to 4 years of professional university training to become doctors, lawyers, accountants, and other types of college-educated professionals. While that is a model of Hirshean-type Torah Im Derech Eretz that was adopted by some in Germany and by many MODERATE Charedim in the USA today, however it was NEVER the model in the Eastern European and Sefardi lands from where today's Charedim in Israel come from. To them you can preach as much as you want about the Western methods of secular education and on top of that it does help if you threaten them with sanctions for not being willing to Westernize because they will simply not do it that way.

      That is where Lipman does not get it because he comes from ultra MO Silver Spring and pragmatic NIRC both in far-off Maryland THAT ARTE TOTALLY DISCONNECTED from the Charedim of New York and Israel, while of course Mr. Yuppie Lapid cannot fathom how Charedim can do quite well in businesses such as buying and selling anything, wholesale and retail, trading, merchandizing, import and export, real estate and factory ownership, without spending a day in a college. Stamar is the best example No one there went to college and they are the richest Chasidus not just from government help but from vast success in business. Many others are happy to drive trucks and work in warehouses and pack boxes, but they will not go to college on pain of yehareg ve'al ya'avor. It is pointless to fight such an outlook and at a certain point if pressed to the level of absurdity, as is happening now, it looks like Maoist or Soviet-style "re-education" of the "peasants" which the Charedim will never accept.

      But the Charedim can learn many skills and trades and occupations to help with parnosa that has nothing to do with the way you think of a secular job market, and they must learn to act cordially and like human beings and then their points of view can be sold and win understanding, starting with some good Kiruv and understanding what PR they need to do to win public approval and win allies. Until then they are going to face a long time in the political wilderness til they get their act together, which may take forever.

      Delete
    3. Stop calling it COLLEGE and use the Lakewood terms of 'fieldwork', 'parnassah training seminars', 'vocational conferences'. The WORD College is treif, call it by any other name and the kehilla can deal with it.

      Delete
    4. RAP, yes, there have been Jewish businessmen, whether haredi or not, who left school at 15 or 16 and became multimillionaires. But I don't see this as being a haredi trait - or even a Jewish one. There are chinese, indian, Arab, brazilian etc businessmen like that, as opposed to professional educated persons.
      If your theory is correct, then there should be no worry whatsoever about Bennet et al, since even 10% of the monies of a few billionaires will cover all the yeshivos.

      Also, the historical experience in Galuth was that there would be many businessmen in the community, and only a few scholars, rahter than the ohter wa round.

      Delete
    5. Rap said...
      " It is unfortunate that they have become reliant of government funds since as you or someone has pointed out, in the past in Poland or Russia or Morocco, they got NO money from governments (no one did, it was BEFORE the concepts of SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM and the welfare state were around) but what the frum of those times did have was the RELIGIOUS freedom to run their own lives with varying degrees of FREEDOM OF COMMERCE and they were successful enough to take care of Jewish poor and needy through plentiful tzedakas."

      Now that you said that Why do Chareidim make coalition deals to assure financing for Yeshivot, talmud toras that do not teach core curriculum subjects , better child tax and housing assistance? It seems that outside of the issue of compulsive military service you are basically in agreement with many policies being proposed by Yesh Atid.

      Delete
    6. Recipients and PublicityMay 11, 2013 at 2:04 AM

      To bartleykulp@hotmail.com: Get this, yeshivas will exist with or without anyone giving them money because for a Torah Jew learning Torah is like breathing, it cannot be stopped by anyone. Never has been stopped and never will be stopped. Yeshivas are buildings. People can learn in their homes, in their shulls, in their backyards and their streets and shops, they can all be yeshivas, no one needs fancy building and programs and funny money from non-religious folks, to make Torah part of Jewish life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      In Europe the more money people had and the more of it floating around the WORSE OFF yeshivas got as people got spoiled and dropped out of Torah life. So in fact poverty is wonderful in this case, it will re-energize the Torah world and make everyone learn more Torah and work on it harder. God will love them more for it!! Pre-World War Two Lithuania was the POOREST part of Europe (all they had to eat was potatoes and herring and some borsht and cream and they wore rags) but it was still the TORAH and YESHIVA CAPITAL of Europe, actually the WORLD, with hundreds of thousands of learned Torah Jews. That was a great heritage destroyed by the Nazis, not by poverty.

      Let Lapid and Bennett and Lipman make all the announcements they like, many of them are actually very sensible and logical, like asking frum people to support themselves and not rely on government SOCIALIST and COMMUNIST-INSPIRED handouts if they won't go to the army, but by the same token let the secular Israeli be put on notice that right now, by locking out the Charedim and basically putting their feet to the fire, they have UNITED the Charedim like never before which they will come to regret because the Charedim will now act in unison on a united front against all the threats against them. We can expect to see the hugest demonstrations that Israel has ever seen quite soon. There will be a one million Charedim marching in protest marches not just once but quite often, and the world will take note, and what will Lapid and Bennett and Lipman say then when 1,000,000 Charedim, that they have united with their blunt but true language, have united against themselves??

      Delete
  3. what a mixed up post. Praising Lipman and the other saying the chareidim should not be coerced. Seems like a contradiction.

    ReplyDelete
  4. FROM 'TRUTH'
    Let's quit this garbage that they simply wont give money to charedim who dont serve. See todays headline here: http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%92%D7%96%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%99%D7%A9-%D7%A2%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%90-%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A1.html
    Charedim who don't enlist will be jailed? You like that, Mr. Lipman?Is that out of LOVE for the charedi brethren too?

    ReplyDelete
  5. The author's comments about the importance of English are particularly ridiculous and evince a complete lack of knowledge about getting a degree and working in Israel.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Recipients and PublicityMay 9, 2013 at 2:07 PM

      "Vtr...The author's comments about the importance of English are particularly ridiculous and evince a complete lack of knowledge about getting a degree and working in Israel."

      Get This:Heavy Charedim and fanatical Chasidim have no interest in getting a secular education and definitely not college degrees. They do not wish to be doctors, lawyers or accountants. And you do not wish to have such doctors lawyers and accountansts serving you, trust me! Charedim feel they know enough languages as far as they are concerned. They do not have plans to work in the corporate work-force just as they have no plans to let secular Jews into their own business and economic affairs aka "Yidisha Gesheften".

      Charedim have their own ways of making money, something you evidently cannot grasp and know nothing about.

      Your comment reflects the assumption that "if only" Charedim could be turned into Modern Orthodox Jews plus into Religious Zionists then hey presto "the problem" would be solved when nothing like that is on the table and nothing like will ever happen.

      If anything within about plus minus 50 years given the Charedi population explosion, Israel will become a Torah state with Charedim, Chasidim and Sefardim doing their stuff as they want to, the more enlightened American-style of liberal Charedim helping in professions, the Religious Zionists manning the army, and all the Chilonim living in New York, LA, Bangkok, Sweden, and New Zealand etc. Then the Mashiach comes. End of problem.

      Delete
    2. This might be shocking to you, the Religious Zionists are not pleased, satisfied, planning or wanting to MAN the IDF in lieu of all others 'doing their thing'. RZ YESHIVOS are multiplying and a new world is emerging.

      Delete
  6. Recipients and PublicityMay 9, 2013 at 1:07 PM

    "Avraham1 said...what a mixed up post. Praising Lipman and the other saying the chareidim should not be coerced. Seems like a contradiction."

    Read with an open mind and you will see that Lipman is not praised but also critiqued and criticized. Ditto for Charedi bad behavior which is inexcusable.

    This is not a kind of "mathematical equation" but it is about complex problems dealing with human beings in complex social settings and situations.

    Lipman makes SOME valid points, while at the same time he ignores the reality of what and who Charedim really are.

    While some in Yesh Atid may be cynical, Lipman is obviously not but he is most certainly NAIVE yet he shares with the cynical the curious assumption that Charedim are like play dough and putty and "need fixing" -- Lipman and his boss Lapid and the Yesh Atid people are going to learn the hard way that Charedim are not their "play-things" to move around on a play board as if they were malleable infants which is pure PATERNALISM, like colonials coming in to "uplift" the natives.

    On the other hand Lipman, and even Lapid, do make some good arguments and they deserve to be heard out because they use reason and logic and need to be rebutted like that, while so far all the Charedim are doing is screaming in the Knesset or just acting shell-shocked and issuing demeaning statements and letters as a sign of their indignation at being locked out of the Israeli government coalitions for the first time in 30 years.

    And no, Charedim should NOT be coerced, since in a DEMOCRACY you cannot coerce people to do anything as long as they are being PEACEFUL..

    Secular Israelis cannot have it both ways, they want to be called "democratic" but they also want to force upon Charedim things they do not want especially changes in RELIGIOUS life which another major freedom granted in a democracy as long as that is practiced peacefully.

    If you can't handle dialectical thinking and presentations or paradoxical examples and situations, that are all too typical of the human mind and condition, it's your problem!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Rap said...
      And no, Charedim should NOT be coerced, since in a DEMOCRACY "you cannot coerce people to do anything as long as they are being PEACEFUL..

      Since when have Chareidim been peaceful and non-coercive?

      "Secular Israelis cannot have it both ways, they want to be called "democratic" but they also want to force upon Charedim things they do not want especially changes in RELIGIOUS life which another major freedom granted in a democracy as long as that is practiced peacefully."

      Do democratic governments not have the right to institute a universal draft? Also since when do democratic governments have to finance parochial institutions regardless of what they do or do not teach. Since when does the tax payer have to foot the bill because they have chosen to live a lifestyle that precludes for the most part the possibility of supporting themselves. Your definition of democracy sounds more like tyranny to me.




      Delete
  7. Thank you for this post. Every computer job I see advertised needs a high level of English (and a few years' experience) but what you wrote about Arabic is Purim Torah.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Thank you for this post. Every computer job I see requires a high level of English (and a few years' experience) but what you wrote about Arabic is Purim Torah.

    ReplyDelete
  9. @RaP "engineering, computers and none of that really requires English it can ALL be learned in Ivrit":

    You are spewing Chareidi nonsense here. You cannot compare operating a small grocery store in Israel to working in an advanced profession. English has become the international language for business and technology, even if some books and websites may have been translated into other languages. If one works in an advanced profession in Israel, one may or may not need to speak English fluently, but one would certainly need to know many English technical terms and concepts.

    If you'd like some proof of what I'm saying - If you are viewing this web page with Internet Explorer, click on View, Source. (In Firefox you can also view the source, but it may be on a different menu.) You are now looking at the program code for this page. How much of it is in Hebrew?

    ReplyDelete
  10. I don't want to discuss any of the specific issues that R. Lipman raises.
    But I do want to say that as an American, he cannot possibly understand the Israeli Charedi mentality, and he has made a serious error in attempting to dictate what is right and wrong for the Israeli Charedi world.
    Disclaimer, I am an American living in Israel for almost 30 years, Charedi (whatever that means), a college dropout, and working in hi-tech for 15+ years.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yehuda, I will be happy to introduce you to my family in Har Nof, Bayit Vegan and Efrat who work in hi-tech and health fields in Israel 30 years plus who were college- educated in USA and one in Bar Illan. There are exceptions to each rule.
      So where did you go for your 'training, internship'?

      Delete
    2. Yoni - I'd love to meet your family. I am a high school & college dropout. I am basically self-taught. The training in the field in which I have been working for 15+ years came from reviewing material my wife was having trouble with in a course she was taking. (BTW - Many of the people who know me professionally state that I am one of the top people in Israel in this field.)
      I am not arguing that there are exceptions to every rule. In fact, I personally am probably an exception to most rules.
      I also do not understand Israeli Charedi society and its approach. The only differences between me and R. Lipman are that:
      a) I recognize the fact that I don't understand Israeli Charedi society, and
      b) I am not trying to force that society to follow a path that I personally think is more appropriate for a Jew.
      This may sound like apikorsus to some, but I feel that the Charedi concept has strayed very far from Torah-true Judaism and has created a 'nanny-state' type of atmosphere that has nothing to do with Yiddishkeit. But this is my own personal and private opinion - nothing on which I would try to base a revolution, even though most thinking Charedim that I know feel the same way.

      Delete
  11. "No Chasidim and no Yeshiva people are ever going to limit themselves to "proposing that 1,800 elite Torah scholars per year be recognized as serving the state and the Jewish people through their Torah study" -- that is such a goyish idea and a suggestion that's just LAUGHABLE because no such concept exists in the Torah world."

    But that is exactly what R' Ovadia Yosef paskened:
    וסיימו בגמרא, אמר אביי, הרבה עשו כרבי ישמעאל (ששילבו תורה עם דרך ארץ, כלומר מלאכה אחרת) ועלתה בידם (והצליחו), כרבי שמעון (שעסקו רק בתורה) ולא עלתה בידם. וזאת משום ששיטת רבי ישמעאל היא הראויה לנהוג לרוב בני האדם, ואילו שיטת רבי שמעון לשקוד אך ורק בתורה, אינה ראויה באופן כללי, אלא ליחידים אשר אדיר חפצם להתעלות במעלות התורה ויראת ה' טהורה, ובפרט לאלה אשר חננם ה' בכשרונות מבורכים, בתפיסה מהירה וזכרון מופלא, אשר נשקף להם עתיד מזהיר להיות מורי הוראות בישראל, ולדון דין אמת לאמיתו, ולקרב את ישראל לאביהם שבשמים,

    ReplyDelete
  12. The 1800-elite-Torah-scholars idea makes sense. It is not a limit on how many people can learn on a full-time life-long basis; it is a limit on how many can do that with *full government support.* If it's so important to charedim to have more than that then they should be able to finance it through general tzedakah funds or from donations from charedi millionaires. Taking from those who don't want to pay for it is much worse, because it creates a chillul Hashem.

    Some knowledge of English is required -- it is the international language of business, technology, science and journalism. It shouldn't be too hard to learn for those who already speak Yiddish, another Germanic language.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Charedim are not asking to be "fixed" or "educated", they are asking to be LEFT ALONE in peace.

    Children living with their parents frequently insist that they have the right to be LEFT ALONE in peace. The parents will typically say "when you get a job and pay your own bills you can ask to be left alone."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I would also add that may be the Chareidim could learn something from the Amish. They also do not want to be told how to live there lives. They do not vote nor do they take money from the government.

      Delete
  14. Rap asked...
    "Lipman is not wrong in wanting to help Israelis learn something to get jobs. But who on Earth taught him that a bit of Math and English will help???"

    Actually it was Adina Bar Shalom (Rabbi Ovadia Yoseph's daughter) who heads a Chareidi career college. But what does she know? She's just a broad.

    Rap: "Isn't Israel in the Middle East??"

    Unfortunately yes.

    Rap:"Why not teach all Israelis Arabic to be able to connect and trade with the Arabs? What's so great about "English" of all things?"

    Sure if you are dealing with a half blind fruit merchant in Aman English is probably useless. However you can get around there in English. However I would caution against trying to find out if there is any one who speaks Hebrew.

    Rap: " Israelis sound so awful when they speak English. It is just not their cup of tea."

    Americans sound pretty bad when they speak Hebrew so I guess that we are even.

    Rap:"Basic arithmetic is part of Torah learning."

    Actually more than basic arithmetic. When I started learning in Yeshiva I remember were were learning gemora Sukka. The maggid shiur kept on having to refer to another rav who was versed in "Evil Greek Geometry" in order to answer our questions.

    Rap:"A frum Jew does not need to learn English or math to open a store, run a little business and buy and sell things."

    Sure, my great grandfather started out in the mid-west selling rags from a cart.

    Rap:"No Chasidim and no Yeshiva people are ever going to limit themselves to "proposing that 1,800 elite Torah scholars per year be recognized as serving the state and the Jewish people through their Torah study" -- that is such a goyish idea and a suggestion that's just LAUGHABLE because no such concept exists in the Torah world."

    You are right about that. In the Israeli Chassidic and Chareidi Yeshiva world no such concept exists. I would not however say that no such concept exists in the Torah world. I have a question though. Do you have any traditional halachic sources that would exempt torah scholars from mandatory conscription? Outside of Eit Laasot and Shas Hashmad.

    Rap:"Lipman and Yesh Atid have to realize that people are entitled to choose their own way in life, especially a religious way of life that Jews have practiced for thousands or hundreds of years."

    Yesh Atid is not trying to enforce a lifestyle on anyone. The only question is whether or not it is up to the taxpayer to subsidize that lifestyle. Also the lifestyle of kollel communities that you are talking about is only 60 years old.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Rap:"While many have become the "learners of Torah" many others become the "supporters of Torah" and this CANNOT and SHOULD NOT and WILL NEVER be put into "quotas" as if it was some sort of "think tank" since the world of Torah Judaism does not need the secular state of Israel to help it formulate notions about how to be better Torah Jews,"

    Yes that is correct, who is to say what limit one should put on tzeddaka of individuals who are willing to make donations for Torah learning. Again, what does this have to do with the obligation of the tax payer.

    "Rap: Of course people should be able to have a decent job, but that is not something that either rabbis or politicians can force or legislate, it is something that SOCIETY effectuates and produces voluntarily and naturally".

    Yes I agree that the government should not legislate what employment one must take. However the standard of living and economic infrastructure in most societies are a result of government initiatives.

    Interesting enough it is the Chareidi rabbis in Israel who have taken away the autonomy of their constituents as to how to live. Just ask anyone how welcoming the Chareidi leadership is to grassroots initiatives to set up talmid torah's that include secular education. Or individuals who become social outcasts because they join the army. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.