Major update 4/10/13 Rav Sternbuch says the media distorted and added to his words http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/04/rav-sternbuch-media-reports-of-his.html
Bhol Translation by RaP:
The Ra'avad [speaks out] Against the Mizrachnikim:
Bhol Translation by RaP:
The Ra'avad [speaks out] Against the Mizrachnikim:
They are haters of the faith [Judaism]. Now they revealed
their "true faces". First explicit [public] criticism. The Ra'avad [Rosh Av
Beis Din] of the Eidah HaChareidis, the Gaon Rav Moshe Shternbuch, chose to
speak out against the entire Religious Zionist [Mizrachi] sector: "The
Mizrachnikim are haters of Judaism [sonei das]. Today they revealed
their true faces." By way of distancing from the [Religious Zionist] entity
he did not [even] agree to mention the name of [Naftali] Bennett [head of the
HaBayit HaYehudi party]: "In holy places one does not mention such
names."
From the time of the pact between Lapid and Bennett, for
the first time a Chareidi leader comes out with a sharp [verbal] attack against
the Religious Zionist community.
During a memorial meal [seudas
hillula] in memory of the [second Satmar Hasidic Rebbe, Rav Moshe
Teitelbaum] ADMO"R 'Beirach Moshe' of Satmar ZT"L [may his saintly
memory be a blessings] that was held last night Motzei Shabbos [Saturday night]
in the Bais HaMedrash of Satmar at Rechov Yonah in Jerusalem, the Ra'avad of the
Eidah HaChareidis the Gaon Rav Moshe Shternbuch spoke out [nosei
devarim], and [verbally] attacked Naftali Bennett and the Religious Zionist
community. The Ra'avad distanced himself from [that] group/sect
[kat] and did not even [stoop] to mention the [actual] name of
Bennett: "In holy places one does not mention such names, but someone with
a knitted kippa [kipa seruga] has [now] appeared before us
[tzamech lanu] and has joined [in friendship] with people
who rejected the yoke [of Torah and Mitzvos]. And [Bennett] has
decided to lead a war. Not only with us but also with HaKadosh Baruch
Hu [God]."
The Ra'avad did not leave it at that, but he [Rav Moshe
Shternbuch] also chose to attack the entire Religious Zionist community: "For
years we knew that the Mizrachnikim were haters of [our] faith [sonei
das], but they were always careful to display themselves as "lovers" of
[our Jewish] faith and that they themselves are "religious" [dati'im]
and they came to preach [lidrosh] in synagogues, today they revealed
their true [hypocritical double] faces because they have joined with the haters
of the [Jewish] religion [sonei hadas].
[DT RaP left off this paragraph which I translate here] "The Zionists and the deniers are the Amalek of this generation that want to destroy religion. The Satmar Rebbe was against the Zionists and deniers from the beginning and he said that it is prohibited to join with them. This that some of them wear a kipa has absolutely no significance.
[DT RaP left off this paragraph which I translate here] "The Zionists and the deniers are the Amalek of this generation that want to destroy religion. The Satmar Rebbe was against the Zionists and deniers from the beginning and he said that it is prohibited to join with them. This that some of them wear a kipa has absolutely no significance.
בהמשך חזר אחר האג'נדה האנטי ציונית המנחה את העדה החרדית: "הציונים
והכופרים הם העמלק שבדור הזה שרוצים להחריב את הדת. "הרבי מסאטמאר זצ"ל היה
מהתחלה נגד הציונים והכופרים ואמר שאסור להתחבר איתם, מה שיש להם כיפה על
הראש זה 'שמעטקלה' כלום".
Yasher Koach to Rav Shternbuch SHLIT"A, as usual he is 101% on the mark!
ReplyDeleteno, RAp is not a troll. He is arguing a yeshivish point of view. On this occasion I disagree with that point of view, but RAP is 99% of the time correct.
DeleteSatmar idealogy is at its best during late NISSAN and the month of IYAR. Get on the battlegear and fight the eternity war of the Warshaw Ghetto, Yom Hashoeh, YOM Hatatzmaut, Yom Yerushalayim and throw in some Sefirah arguments for and against listening to recorded music.
DeleteThese battles have been waged for over 55 years with little change in the participants. PERHAPs, its time to remove some of the battle gear and move forward if possible.
Rav Elya Svei ZT"L who was the head of the Moetzes of Agudas Yisreol of America a long time ago publicly branded the President and Rosh HaYeshiva of YU, Rabbi Norman Lamm, the preeminent living leader and thinker of Religious Zionism and Modern Orthodoxy in North America, as a שונאי דת
ReplyDeleteIs this part of the yeshiva world's efforts to build bridges, tear down stereotypes, lessen hatred? no doubt declarations like these will bring rav lior, MK bennett, and the srugi world in general to repent for their numerous sins.
ReplyDeleteA very astute observation.
DeleteHowever, may I suggest you consider the source(s).
In my experience with B'Chadrei Chareidim they, um, sensationalize statements well beyond what was actually said. In fact I have found on a troubling number of occasions that they more or less made up the words that were suppodedly coming from some Rabbi.
I would suggest contacting Rav Shternbuch directly to verify what they are saying is true before getting all bothered about it.
kikar shabbat has the same report, if they are any better. in addition they have a report on rav steinemann saying other, equally charif things.
Deletehttp://bit.ly/12xfQCj
Except that the mizrachnikim don't hate religion.
ReplyDeleteOf course they don't. They're Orthodox Jews. All they want is for their fellow Orthodox Jews who farther right hashkafically to raise their rates of participation in the army and workforce somewhat, in order to heal the rift in Israeli society between the charedim and everyone else.
DeleteIt's not about hatred; if anything it's tough love. It's not really even tough; it's being done very politely. Today's proposals are a far cry from Shinui-style politics.
Publicly, few charedim will say anything supportive. But with the right incentives, they will submit. And the wise ones will know from the beginning that it's all for the best. See R' Alderstein's interesting editorial on Cross-Currents for a compatible perspective.
WADR to rav alderstein, he is in america. TTBOMK he doesn't have that much juice here.
Deletewere someone like the rosh yeshiva of hebron (the one in givat mordechai) to say something that would mean a lot. were he and say rav melamed to have a sit down, call for a time out, cool heads, a bit of listening, that would do wonders.
How can one paint a whole tzibbur of people with varying opinions with one tar brush?
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't vote, and he signs pashkevillim against voting. He really has no moral authority to complain about the coalition breakdown.
ReplyDeleteIn his opinion, the Mizruchnicks who partake in the gvt against halacha, and the Charedim who also partake in the gvt against halacha - should all join forces and do their averos together so that they burn in gehinom together.
Furthermore, it is clear that the whole discussion is about funding, and no one is going to be drafted against their will. He can't complain as the Edah Charedis position is that it is forbidden to take datot money anyway.
R' Svei called R Lamm a "sonneh Hashem".
ReplyDeleteThe problems with both of these statements are that
a) It is attacking all mizrachi for the views of one left-leaning guy called Bennet, who is not even a Talmid Hochom.
b) If you wish to call anyone who disagrees with your ideology a Sonne Hashem , then u have serious problems.
As argued previously, Rambam disagreed with certain aspects of haredi viewpoint, so would that categorize him , chas v'shalom as someone who hates G-d? Ibn Ezra , Ralbag, Saadia, Meiri all expressed rationalist and modernist viewpoints. Just because one disagrees with the Degel viewpoint, that does not make them atheists or haters of G-d.
And the question is what happens next? Once you have excluded the MO and Mizrachi, you will start to turn on your own kind, which ironically, has already begin with attacks on R' Svei's co-Rosh Yeshiva. Is R Shteinman also a sonneh Hashem because he is slightly more modern thinking than the Eda and his predecessors?
Once again, we are reminded of the Netziv's description of how the 2nd Temple was destroyed.
@Eddie April 7, 2013 at 1:52 PM "R' Svei called R Lamm a "sonneh Hashem".
DeleteYou are correct. I recalled that also after I made my first post. Not sure though what the difference is between a "soniei das" and a "sonei Hashem" -- maybe someone could give a shiur in that, it may be a popular now that these labels are being bandied about.
To Ben Waxman @April 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM; Student V @April 7, 2013 at 12:40 PM; Avraham @1April 7, 2013 at 12:51 PM; koillel nick @April 7, 2013 at 1:43 PM and others etc:
ReplyDeleteIf you have ever met Rav Shternbuch and heard him talk and know anything about him, you will know that he is first and foremost a gentleman. He grew up in Britain and has impeccable manners and speaks the most perfect King's and Queen's English. He is very worldly and savvy and has published many seforim in Halacha and Aggada that are respected all over the world of Torah and are to be found in any real yeshiva and in the homes of lomdim and bnai Torah. He has been around the world. He has worked with Baalei Teshuva. He has given very enlightened pesakim in dealing with child abuse. He was fearless in his campaign to unmask and defrock Tropper and the fraud that was EJF. He is not a man who seeks confrontation, but right now it seems he has deemed it necessary to take on the mantle of speaking out in almost "Churchillian" terms. If you do not grasp the emergency nature of the situation, you are missing something in your receptacles (keilim) for Chochma, Bina and Daas.
Just to remind you that Rav Shternbuch is not Chasidish, he is basically a Brisker and learned in a few other Litvish yeshivos. He is not interested in making machlokes, but this is a time when the axis of Lapid-Bennett-Netanyahu have announced they are gearing up for a war with the Chareidim. As they say, if it is war they want, it is war they will get.
No one cares about building bridges now. The bridges are now pulled up and the forts are surrounded by the moats. The Age of Baalei Teshuva is drawing to a close. The time to accept geirim is also at an end. As Rav Shternbuch has precociously stated the Chilonim enabled by the the Mizrachi are now geared to uproot the Mosdos HaChichinuch, the Batei Din, and want to accept goyim as easy "geirim" who are goyim gemurim halachically.
Wake up and smell the coffee. It is the Chilonim who have elected Lapid and Bennett and the Chareidim are not going to wait for the emissaries of shmad to come knocking on their doors. Quite simply, the best defense is offense, it's only gonna get a lot worse...
OK. if the good rabbi's attitude is one of "bring it on baby!" who am i to argue?
DeleteNo one cares about building bridges now.
DeleteIn other words, don't expect Geulah anytime soon. We are throwing away the good middah of yachdut for the not so good one of sinat chinam, despite where that has gotten us.
The bridges are now pulled up and the forts are surrounded by the moats.
I could make lots of snarky comments about this absurd statement... but I'll just let it stand.
The Age of Baalei Teshuva is drawing to a close.
Somebody should probably inform Aish HaTorah, Ohr Somayach, Bircas HaTorah, Lubavitch, Breslov... Well there are lots of people who see the wave of Baal Teshuvim only increasing. You either accept and assimilate them, or you face utter irrelevance.
The time to accept geirim is also at an end.
Yeah... Don't worry about the various lavim both D'orraitta and d'rabbanan you will be over. Just reject them out of hand.
As Rav Shternbuch has precociously stated the Chilonim enabled by the the Mizrachi are now geared to uproot the Mosdos HaChichinuch, the Batei Din, and want to accept goyim as easy "geirim" who are goyim gemurim halachically.
Proof please. And not more reports from B'chadrei. In the Rav's own hand please.
Here is an example of a very frum Mizrachi Rav
Deletehttp://matzav.com/rav-shmuel-eliyahu-issur-of-lo-yilbash-applies-on-purim-too-3
Cannot call him sonneh Hashem.
On the other hand, the official spokesperson of the Eda, in the time of its founder, r' Sonnenfeld, was a sodomist by the name of deHaan. R Sonnefeld said of his spokesperson, who only went to the Kotel to pick up arab boys, that he was only responsible for his actions from his shoulders upwards. in other words, the Holy Eda is giving its imprimatur to maasei sdom and mishkav zachar, or at least turning a blind eye. This is because the Eda is bribable just like any other Tzadik, as we are informed through the Torah. So i suggest you get off the high horse of fantasy, that the Eda is pure and infallable, when it is as morally corrupt as can be.
I went to a baal teshuva yeshiva in the 1990's. My Rosh Yeshiva said that in fact the baal teshuva yeshivas in Israel are not what they were in the 1980's and 1990's; they are now half full. He speculates that the reason for this that now one doesn't have to go to Israel to learn Torah as a baal teshuva. Kiruv organizations are now all over the diaspora and the internet plays a big role now, unlike when I went in the 1990's.
DeleteExcept that the mizrachnikim don't hate religion.
DeleteTry again.
you will know that he is first and foremost a gentleman.
DeleteRather not speak about another vile and evil nation that were personified as GENTELEMEN also.
Re recipients and publicity: The ends do not justify the means. You cannot insult a whole tzibbur because of the shortcomings of some or many of its members. A gentleman should certainly not do so.
ReplyDeleteEddie your repeated and exteme attacks on the current Eida because of your understanding of how dehaan was dealt with - are totally illogical. If you have evidence to support your claim of moral bankruptcy of the current organization - then present it. Otherwise you are simply slinging mud
ReplyDelete"Otherwise you are simply slinging mud"
DeleteHow exactly does an attack by today's Eda on the ENTIRE Mizrachi community become exempt from slinging mud? Or is it that illogical claims and mudslinging are acceptable when they suit one side, but not the other?
two vital differences - 1)the proof for your attack is ancient history. You have failed to show that it has anything to do with the present organization or people. In contrast Rav Sternbuch is talking about something that just happened. 2) if you or I make such a statement it really doesn't have any significance unless we can clearly present evidence justifying the claim - but if a major figure such as Rav Sternbuch says it then it is news - whether his statement is accurate or not.
DeleteIf you wish to present one of the leaders of the Mizrachi saying something comparable - then that is newsworthy. But nobody - inside or outside of the Eida is making the claims you are. Thus your assertions are irrelevant, not worthy of printing and are simple mudslinging
Sorry, you have lost me now.
DeleteI think you are responding to a post I made but wasn't published. So let me re-state the problem I have with the current attack, which is the subject of this discussion.
R Shterbuch attacks not only Bennet, but ALL mizrachnikim. he says we have known all along that Mizrachi are treif, but now they have proven it. He essentially calls them heretics or atheists.
Now, he is saying this about Gedolim even greater than himself, who were associated with Mizrachi, eg R Zevin, R Kook, R Herzog, R Yisraeli, R Kapach, R Soloveitchik.
He is also saying this about people , regardless of whether they support Bennett or not.
Now here is the fallacy of your argument.
Mr Bennet is NOT the representative of Mizrachi, or of Mercaz haRav. On the other hand, Mr DeHaan WAS the representative of the Eda of R Sonnenfeld.
If, according to R Shternbuch's logic a non-representative is indeed a representative of an Eda (which is totally fallacious) kal vchomer, an official representative ipso facto represents the Eda. Thus according to r Shternbuch's logic, and NOT mine, this would render then entire Eda at the time of R Sonenfeld, as feigeles and into mishkav zachor. hence, the claim of R Shternbuch must be rejected.
There are several other hypocritical issues. I am not atatckin R Shternbuch personally, as I know he is a great Talmid Chochm, and I am sure he is in great distress due to the situation of Lapid etc. However, when he falsely accuses the entire dati Leumi public of being atheists, then I cannot stand idly by.
The Eda's official policy is to not recognize the State of Israel. They also would not accept funds from the State, since, as the Satmarer and Brisker put it, the State was an idolatrous one. Thus, there is nothing to complain about, since the worst that can happen is the fulfillment of the Brisker Rav's edict to not accept State funds.
And the same goes for being part of the Government. the Brisker Rav forbade it, so why the Eda being so inconsistent? The issue is money. It corrupts all of us, and that seems to be the core of the issue.
I am sorry, but the idea of what I say being irrelevant is not how I have been trained to think in science. I see a statement as being true or false, regardless of who says it. this is the opposite of the Haredi world view, which says a statement is true or false only because of the status of the person who utters it. I don't think R Shmuel Elyahu is an atheist because of some irrational statement made in anguish of the Eda. Half of the readership of this blog might be rendered 2atheists" because they have some attachment to Mizrachi.
Eddie it my comment was made in reference to a comment you made that I rejected for the stated reasons. Your present comment is so convoluted I would need a flow chart to try and make sense of ii. I stand by my original criticism.
Deletevery well
DeleteIn simple terms, I think it is wrong to say "all haredim are.." or all Mizrachi are.."etc. If a scandal comes out about 1 person in Satmar or RZ yeshiva, it is wrong to tarnish the entire community for that.
Eddie's long comment right here made perfect sense to me. RDE, maybe you just don't want to understand it, rather than not being able to?
DeleteIt is clear that mudslinging has occurred here, whether "newsworthy" or not.
Given the obvious fact that Eda is against accepting funds from the state or participating in the government, can you explain their motive in reacting harshly to the formation of a government with certain haredi parties sitting in the opposition? Since you don't accept Eddie's criticism on this particular point, then you most have some explanation or rationale for why you think the Eda's reactions to this are logical/acceptable. So share it with us.
And in general, why is it a crime for any given party to sit in opposition? That is how coalition govt's work. Smaller parties won't always be part of the govt.
Pretty straight forward to me to with no need of 'Flow Chart' or even note taking.
DeleteRhetoric, hatred, name-calling is the order of the day during late Nissan and Iyar. Just a gilgul of the talmidim of Rabi Akiva..
Eddie,
Delete"Mr Bennet is NOT the representative of Mizrachi, or of Mercaz haRav."
Then who voted for him as their leader?
Is there any serious opposition from his constituency to what he's doing?
Well, most of his voters were probably dati leumi ("mizrachi"), but even in most of the settlements he got by and large no more than 50% of votes - that means that half the dati leumi population voted for other parties. Bennett is definitely not "our leader", even if he should claim that. I didn't vote for him, because I knew in advance that he is leaning towards the left, and in our Yishuv, which is overwhelmingly dati leumi, almost a third of the people voted for Michael Ben Ari of "Otzma le'Israel" instead (which didn't make it into the Knesset), plus, there were also a lot of votes for Shas from Sephardic dati leumi people, and for the Likud. Therefore, no one should condemn an entire population for someone whom half of them didn't vote for and who in addition went against the advice of the leading Rabbis of our sector. And I'm willing to bet that in the next elections, Bennett will lose most of the people who voted for him now, because they're fed up with him, too. He's a one-timer, came out of nowhere, is here today and gone tomorrow.
Deletewhy would anyone be surprised at this statement from Harav Sternbuch,after all he is one of the leaders of the Eidah Hachreidis,who's official policy on Medinat Yisrael is that it is completely illegitimate,and every believing jew must pray three times a day for it's immediate demise and disappearance,( without any loss of life),and as long as this illegitimate state is standing the Messiah cannot and will not come,and participating in the elections and sending frum representatives to the Knesset is a bigger sin than AVODAH ZARA,SHFICHAS DAMIM and ARAYES,and it is B'YEHERAG V'AL OIVER,
ReplyDeleteThe AIDAH HACHREIDIS,is completely irrelevant,it represents a very small minority of frum jews in Jerusalem,the zealots of TOLDOS AHARON,the Israel hating Satmar and some of the Breslov crazies, GER, VIZSNITS,BELZ,and all of the yeshiva world has nothing to to do with them,they have their own BEIS DINNIM.
Therefore my quetion to you Rabbi Eidensohn is,why keep quoting Rabbi Sternbuch? does anyone in main stream chareidi society take him seriously?
CHAIM.S
R' Aharon Lichtenstein, from "Im Ein Daat, Manhigut Minayon?", a talk given Chanukah 2012 (pg 16):
ReplyDeleteאני יכול לחתום על כך שאיש לא יצא ממפגש עם ר' שלמה זלמן או קרא משהו שכתב, כששנאתו לתורה ולנושאי דגלה התרחבה. חלילה. ההפך הוא הנכון. איני מאמין שהיה אדם אחד שהתייחס כך לר' יעקב קמינצקי. איזה מאור פנים היה שם; איזו הבנה ורגישות לפרטים הקטנים ביותר
This was "דרכיה דרכי נועם וכל נתיבותיה שלום" and "תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם".
At this point the key is not to respond "כמים הפנים לפנים,כן לב האדם לאדם". There is an irony to those who dig the trench deeper by yelling about yenem's alleged sin'as chinam.
In any case, the Israeli Chareidi society is doomed. Its demographics has grown until the lifestyle is unsustainable financially, and nisqatnu hadoros has meant a leadership less and less informed about the social pressures the community is up against just as this is coming to a point of existential crisis. Words against ways of observing Torah that will remain possible after this crisis will mean that kids will find a slippery slope between bogrut and chilul Shabbos. Once economics necessitate breaching the wall, the wall is broken.
To Micha Berger: 1 of 2:
ReplyDelete"Micha Berger...In any case, the Israeli Chareidi society is doomed. Its demographics has grown until the lifestyle is unsustainable financially, and nisqatnu hadoros has meant a leadership less and less informed about the social pressures the community is up against just as this is coming to a point of existential crisis."
RaP: Your own assertions disprove you. The very strength of the Chareidim, in Israel and America and Europe is in their almost unnatural exponential explosive population growth, so that in itself is the opposite of "doomed" a rather morbid and depressing word. Sure, they are now faced by new realities of having to fend for themselves in all ways.
But it is a great mistake and misconception to see them as a vast and helpless collection of flailing "nebechs" who have no clue how to navigate the modern world.
It is this very great growth in numbers that is driving the secular and Religious Zionist sectors crazy as they try various maneuvers to outsmart the Chareidim:
* by bringing in 300,000 non-Jewish Russian to Israel,
* by fighting to recognize Reform conversions that will bring in patrilineal Jews from the USA who are Halachically gentiles,
* by cutting funding, by threatening conscription,
*by mixing into the education of Chareidi kids as an attempt at social control, etc etc etc,
while the Chareidim see through all these tricks and will not be fooled and each side knows why there is a Jewish cultural war (a veritable kulturkampf) between them: The Chilonim KNOW that the Chareidim are growing and based on very simple DEMOGRAPHICS will become the majority within a few short decades. In the meantime the Chareidim, as they have been for centuries, are focused on making MONEY ...GELT. They are buyers and sellers. They are retailers and wholesalers. Importers and exporters. Owners and managers. Wheelers and dealers.
In America and Europe and even Israel many Chareidim are fabulously rich, they know how to get every last penny out legitimate government funds and benefits for their large families too, and why not.
The Chareidi freight train left the station a long time ago and is now whistling along at full steam ahead and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it from rolling along. Just spend a few hours walking through any Chareidi neighborhood in the world and you will see very busy people rushing to and fro and none of them look like they are doomed, on the contrary there is a VERY clear vibrancy in the air and a dynamism at work that only a blind person would miss.
Rap: "It is this very great growth in numbers that is driving the secular and Religious Zionist sectors crazy as they try various maneuvers to outsmart the Chareidim:
Delete* by bringing in 300,000 non-Jewish Russian to Israel,
* by fighting to recognize Reform conversions that will bring in patrilineal Jews from the USA who are Halachically gentiles,
* by cutting funding, by threatening conscription,
*by mixing into the education of Chareidi kids as an attempt at social control, etc etc etc,
"
How absurd. I self-identify as national religious. Not charedi. The impressive growth of the charedi population does not "drive me crazy." On the contrary, it makes me proud as a Jew, and I am happy to see them growing. They are bringing more Torah Jews into the world. And in times like this where we face an existential demographic threat from our enemies, it is all the more important that they continue to do this.
I consider the first two points marked by asterisk to be anathema to the Jewish people. Why do you lump in religious zionists with the chiloni, Jew-hating political hacks of the secular regime who have carried out and continue to try to carry out these things? For the past 60 years, the ones setting the national agenda are the Labor, Likud, and Kadima. Religious zionists have never set the national agenda, nor have the haredi parties- although each have been participants at various times in various governments.
Asterisk points 3 and 4 don't make any sense to me. Who is being mixed? Not sure what it refers to. I personally have no need or desire to cut funding to haredim. I would much rather funding to the Arab enemy be cut, funding to pointless subsidized kibbutzim can be cut, special tax breaks to Israeli arabs with multiple wives should be cut, etc etc and with the savings I wouldn't mind if they used some of those savings to actually increase funding for haredim (and some savings as simply tax cuts to the populace). I personally think they should help fund suitable programs specifically for those young men who cannot succeed in learning and need/want to serve and/or work in society. But that's neither here nor there. I want the haredim to continue to multiply. They may not be able to do it as much if they are in financial turmoil caused by the mass-kollel system. I hope they can use various opportunities to enrich their society and become independent so they can keep having lots of kids as they do now.
I have absolutely no motive or desire for haredi population growth to slow down or go sideways.
Are you aware that religious zionist birth rates are very high and probably rival those of the charedim? That is also a good thing.
RAP, I hope YOU will have many kids, and I hope you will raise them right, without promoting to them hatred of religious zionists or ascribing these false motivations that will cause your kids to hate us because I don't think even a fraction of the religious zionists want the things you listed.
To Micha Berger: 2 of 2:
ReplyDelete"Words against ways of observing Torah that will remain possible after this crisis will mean that kids will find a slippery slope between bogrut and chilul Shabbos."
RaP: Nonsense. You miss the point that Chareidi kids receive a Talmudic and Halachic education and their minds are as sharp as razors from that. By their 20s they are on the intellectual level of many secular PhDs. Do you know what it takes to learn masechtas and hold kup in learning with meforshim? No wonder they go into stocks and currencies as well. They do not need an outside secular education to latch on. Their minds are pumped up and fully ablaze. The girls are very smart too and they are sharp as whips. They are not about to become professionals, but they will continue to do what they have done for centuries: be sochrim, mochrim, merchants, buyers etc and focus on raw MONEY (it makes the world go round). If they need to take a course to learn something about computers, something they love and take too like fish to water, it does not take them very long to get into that. They are quick self-learners. They have and use ALL the technological gadgetry, cars, and make use of anything that moves on the ground, on the sea and in the air -- they are supporting the airlines coming in and out of Israel single-handedly. They are NOT about to become lawyers, doctors or accountants, and if they need that they will pay for those services.
"Once economics necessitate breaching the wall, the wall is broken."
RaP: Pure narishkeit and totally lacking any insight into the busy, growing and successful world of Chareidi Jewry.
P.S. Micha: Chareidim also know how to suffer and accept mesirus nefesh. They think nothing of getting married at 18, 19, or 20 with nothing to their names. They find a little room and make the best of it. They are tough. Chareidi women are cut from a different cloth, they can have give birth to 10, 15, 18 kids withing 20 years (this is no exaggeration) and they will all live in a two or three rooms. They will eat the barest food and will still not starve. They will wear clothing and still have an extra outfit for Shabbos. And only in the rarest of circumstances do Chareidim in Israel make yerida, usually for a medical emergency or to collect money among their rich and not so rich brethren overseas. This has been their way of life for centuries. No wonder Lapid and his Tel Avi pseudo-intellectual spoiled brat yuppies are scared stiff, who wouldn't be as they face this Chareidi "horde" from their point of view that is about to overpower them in all spheres.
ReplyDeleteHow long does it take for a secular Israeli to marry? In America and Europe secular Jews are marrying almost only gentiles, no secular Jew marries another Jew today outside of Israel. Even if 10% or 20% or even 30% of Chareidi youth drop out and become shababniks, that will still leave 90% or 80% or 70% who will stick it out. It's a grim situation and many kids are being lost, but the steamroller of Chareidi Jewry rolls on and cannot be stopped.
So please stop fooling yourself that "economic" factors or realities will change the Chareidim because they are mostly prepared to start married life with nothing and then they fight their way up. The Israeli Chareidim are a tough breed, perhaps too tough, but just as tough as the secular Sabras that now want to take them on and break them. But it won't work because the Chareidim are used to suffering and in fact are taught to be mekabel yesurim be'ahava. A secular Israeli needs to spend decades finding educational and financial security while a Chareidi young couple does not even think about such things, they just plunge in and have EMUNA that HKB"H will help them through life. That has always been the true Jewish way. It's not just serving in a military army that will make you a tough "soldier' in the paths of life.
I hope you're right, because Yiddishkeit is healthier when every na'ar can find darko. I don't want a monolith of people who observe all the same way.
DeleteHowever, I believe you're fooling yourself. The rise of Chareidi-friendly college programs is the beginning of a trend. You can't fight to the top until you learn it's mutar to fight. You can't put food on the table, or put the table in a house, if you (as a couple) only put in a fraction of the effort necessary to pay for either, and the gov't handouts have dried up.
The best we can hope for is delaying the problem, giving the community more time to adjust, by stopping payment to less deserving groups first: starting with people in jail for attempting terrorism. Or lower on the list, failed qibbutzim. Or...
And the rabbanim realize this, which is the whole reason why the rhetoric has grown so heated. The community cannot survive with its current culture without gov't leverage, and the population has gotten too large for the two-income taxpayer to be willing to give the chareidi parties that leverage. The money simply ain't there. Socialized economies are falling over across Europe. Israelis don't want to be next.
A sharp mind that hasn't yet learned long division won't get a job. And one who is told that leaving yeshiva to do business al pi halakhah is a tragedy to be avoided won't look for one anyway.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Israeli economy won't be able to support the growing percentage of Chareidim. The rest of Israel depends on two income families. Bibi started the ball rolling on this back when he was Sharon's finance3 minister -- Israel can't afford the level of socialization it was offering until then
So, there will come a time when Bnei Braq and Meah Shearim styles of being Chareidi will end up looking more like Lakewood yeshivish. The other alternatives will be starving or using the voting block to drive Israel into the hole Cyprus just went down.
The Chareidi world is NOT self-sustaining. If it is successful, it's not entirely their success. It's also the success of all those people they are now screaming at for being unable to continue to float this large of a community. The Israeli two-income-family taxpayer, the Mizrachistim who created the religious infrastructure, etc...
And as I see it, what's left of Israeli Chareidi leadership has to prepare people by laying out the ideal of being an ethical and ehrlicher balebas. Or, people will opt out of believing in a system in which they are told they are sub-par members of the community. Prepare a path, or expect more and more kids to jump the wall. The choice is really theirs.
More to Micha Berger: 1 of 3:
ReplyDelete"Micha Berger said...A sharp mind that hasn't yet learned long division won't get a job."
RaP: Charedim are not looking for jobs in the way that secular people get job training and go job hunting. You seem to miss that point. There are also many types and varieties of Chareidim and they have different approaches to work. The Chasidisha ones for sure will not "get trained" the way you think, they are already "trained" by their life-outlook to be takeover artists of anything. They all know and want to own or barter. If they need to do division or multiplication, they will use their IPhones (yes they all have them.) They all know how Yaakov Avinu got rich in the end, got handed him the wealth.
"And one who is told that leaving yeshiva to do business al pi halakhah is a tragedy to be avoided won't look for one anyway."
RaP: Again, there are different kinds of Chareidim. I think you are referring to a more "eidel" American type of Litvish yeshiva bochur and such types may in fact even go to college without anyone telling them. They are not the norm in Israel that has a majority of Chasidisha Charedim. The Sefardim are all with the mentality of merchants in the shuks by nature for centuries. Cut them loose and they will buy and sell anything. It's a different world in Israel. In America Sefardim are incredibly successful and many are not educated, in fact they DESPISE education!. They know how to work hard and make MONEY. Period. Something refined Western mind like yours do not seem to grasp. But the main problem is that they are hemmed in by requirements to do army service which they mostly refuse, hence the "sitting around" problem that drives everyone up the wall and does no one any good. That is why they will have to be cut loose and let go to do their thing and make money. Threats again st them will lead to nothing.
"And the Israeli economy won't be able to support the growing percentage of Chareidim."
RaP: The Chareidim ARE in many ways a BIG PART of "the Israeli economy" -- hundreds of thousands of CONSUMERS who require all the needs of life, food, clothing, housing, transportation, etc that fuels the economy. The Chareidim are the best customers, buyesr, shoppers, investors etc etc etc. Imagine what each family needs to spend on food, building places to live, appliances, the list goes on and on -- all that gives economic opportunities to many people to make a good living. Imagine setting up a business to supply Chareidim with diapers, with foodstuffs, baby food, with hats, with you name it, it's a boom town atmosphere for them with no end in sight, and they are generating it with their lifestyle.
More to Micha Berger: 2 of 3:
ReplyDelete"The rest of Israel depends on two income families."
RaP: This is not the mindset or even the need of the way most Charedim in Israel live. They can live on bubkes and still thrive. It is not al pi derech hateva but it has been going on for centuries. They can live on leben and bread the whole week and a small piece of chicken on Shabbos. Non-Israeli Chareidim are shocked by this and have a higher standard of living.
"Bibi started the ball rolling on this back when he was Sharon's finance3 minister -- Israel can't afford the level of socialization it was offering until then"
RaP: In the modern world when "money" is "plastic" and countries can create "wealth" in their computer servers, the world has come to the point of a "Monopoly (the game) economy" -- only the very wealthy really have real wealth, the rest of the world, meaning 90% of the human race is basically on the dole or lives from pay check to pay check, not only Chareidim, in fact it makes Chareidi life all the more doable and acceptable. Everyone anywhere in any middle class for sure is "Chareidi" today few people are managing, only the very rich, we are all living on miracles. The USA economy collapsed in 2008 and has never come back. Europe does not have an economy. Somehow Israel bechasdei Hashem is gliding through the cracks and "making it" Chareidi style for EVERYONE even Lapid makes his "money" from yapping on talk shows, he produces NOTHING tangible except for verbiage and theatrics. If he was frum he would be a good maggid shiur and the whole of Yesh Atid, the chattering classes of Tel Aviv is just like him, just yapping away day and night all over, in the media especially, while producing nothing but threats against frum people !!!!! And that is how they make "money" what a fraud it all is.
"So, there will come a time when Bnei Braq and Meah Shearim styles of being Chareidi will end up looking more like Lakewood yeshivish."
RaP: They are all different. You would be surprised just how many "mansions" there are behind those simple facades. Somehow everyone is making it through, willy nilly. Gott Firt Di Velt!
"The other alternatives will be starving or using the voting block to drive Israel into the hole Cyprus just went down."
RaP: Nonsense. Cyprus and the Europeans have no ambition beside they are CURSED while Am Yisrael is GEBENTCHED MIN HASHAMAYIM. The Europeans are lazy, unlike Chareidim who NEVER sleep, if you know them, they are like the energizer bunnies. I just see from what you say you have not had much one on one dealings with real life Chareidim either in Israel or outside of it.
More to Micha Berger: 3 of 3:
ReplyDelete"The Chareidi world is NOT self-sustaining."
RaP: It is. It is already a "two-state solution" between the frum and the frei, just it has not been made fully official yet. They are focused on the PLO when the real "hafrada" setting in is between Chilonim and Chareidim.
"If it is successful, it's not entirely their success."
RaP: Again, you obviously don't know them. You are just being fooled by that "sea of black" that is impenetrable and makes it impossible for outsiders to get a true reading, but be assured, it is swirling busy ocean (Yam Shel Torah) beneath those seemingly "calm" waters.
"It's also the success of all those people they are now screaming at for being unable to continue to float this large of a community. The Israeli two-income-family taxpayer, the Mizrachistim who created the religious infrastructure, etc..."
RaP: More shtuyot. Certainly if you are talking about defense, it is the Israeli army that is doing the defending and fighting, but anyone inside Israel knows that the Chareidim are a big part of the Israeli economy's engine, in housing, goods, services, all sectors, they are big investors and spenders. The controlling secular vested interests in Israel, the so-called "vatikim" the ten or so families that in effect control the Israeli economy and that support Yesh Atid and the other parties, all KNOW that it is only a matter of time till they lose their control to the Chareidi controlling families, such as Ger, Belz, Viznitz, Satmar, Aguda, Degel, Bnai Berak, groups based in Meah Shearim etc etc etc you name it. Unfortunately it is doubtful that when the Chareidim take over that they will not treat the chilonim like nebechs in turn. At that point it will be worthwhile for the Chilionim to move to live on Cyprus and Greece and Italy with their increasing numbers of shiksa wives and offspring. That is what it has come to.
"And as I see it, what's left of Israeli Chareidi leadership has to prepare people by laying out the ideal of being an ethical and ehrlicher balebas."
RaP: This is all timid stuff. They are way past it. They are lunging to be tycoons and you are talking about baby steps that they long ago skipped.
"Or, people will opt out of believing in a system in which they are told they are sub-par members of the community. Prepare a path, or expect more and more kids to jump the wall. The choice is really theirs."
RaP: Don't hold your breath. Whoever will jump ship will drown and they will have no mercy on them. It's a cruel system. Tragically. And the majority will stick it out and just take over by dint of growth in numbers, the demographics you falsely labelled as "doomed" but is really "gebentched".
RaP, you're not reading. You think I'm gloating or being triumphalist or something. No, I think Yiddishkeit needs as many viable derakhim as possible. I'm not your enemy; I'm spelling out economic and demographic trends, and where they are heading.
ReplyDeleteYou can hand-wave over the economic issues, call the reality of the situation "shetuyot", etc... But all I hear is you getting defensive over an attack I'm not making.
I have no interest to "hold my breath".
I do have an interest in a vibrant chareidi community once Israel's economy more resembles America's level of handouts. And telling kids that settling for a chareidi-friendly college program or army program will destroy their Yiddishkeit is both false and counterproductive.
It will be a different kind of Chareidi, one who more resembles the Chazon Ish's ideal of Torah vaAvodah (or as we would say "Torah uParnasah"), but it would be one loyal to Chareidi ideals. There would still be kollel for nearly all, and life-long-learning for those who are capable benei Torah, but not a lifestyle that never existed before and isn't self-sustaining.
Again, if the gedolim didn't see such an outcome from the reduction of gov't subsidies, their rhetoric wouldn't sound the way it does.
Bennet and Co. are Orthodox Jews, and they and the rabbis that support their efforts are undoubtedly God fearing, learned and observant of mitzvot. But they are out to destroy the charedi way of life, institute a draft and core curriculum and cut welfare subsidies by at least half. As such they are enemies of the charedi community, irrespective of their claims that they support the study of Torah. Even if the Mizrachi community are correct in thinking charedim would benefit by doing army service, acquiring a secular education and workingd full time, these changes will end up transforming forever the charedi way of life. When faced with such an enemy, the first law of politics is to fight back.Rabbi Sternbuch's speech is part of a larger polemics reminding the supporters of Bennet how they will be judged by the charedi world should they act on their threats. ej
ReplyDeletethe Chareidim because they are mostly prepared to start married life with nothing and then they fight their way up.
ReplyDeleteWill have to remind the 10 Israeli, Charedi Meshulachim who knocked on my door this week for apartments for their kids that R & P says they are prepared to start married life with NOTHING...
"yoni @ April 10, 2013 at 5:14 AM said
ReplyDeletethe Chareidim because they are mostly prepared to start married life with nothing and then they fight their way up.
Will have to remind the 10 Israeli, Charedi Meshulachim who knocked on my door this week for apartments for their kids that R & P says they are prepared to start married life with NOTHING..."
When they are finally knocking at your, they are then in the process of "fighting their way up"! You can then decide if you want to give them tzedaka or ma'aser. A poor man has every right to ask for help. If you don't want to help him, then don't, no one is forcing you to give.
I think everyone has had different experiences and even run-ins with tzedaka collectors. Most times they are sincere people, happy with a dollar or two. If you give then five or ten or twenty dollars they are happy. Hashem is sending us the privilege to give tzedaka. Who else do you want to give to? The Israeli army, they are NOT poor and they are the biggest schnorrers and are not ashamed to beg the USA for tens of billions each year for their "army kollel" where the officers all live like kings all their lives even after leaving the army.. Why is the army a "holy of holies" but helping fellow Torah Jews some kind of "leprosy"???
Another point, Chareidim do contribute to Israeli society by being consumers and customers and buyers in the Israeli economy. Money that comes to them from donations overseas, or from whatever they earn legally or off the black market (they do, do it, since they feel trapped), or from government help ALL goes DIRECTLY back into the Israeli economy. They do NOT ship their money offshore to Swiss bank accounts and havens like secular Israeli tycoons do. Think of all the shoes Chareidim need to buy for themselves and their families each year, of the mountains of fruits, vegetables, breads, foodstuffs, appliances, for home building and improvement, spending for Shabbos and for each and every Yom Tov in its own way. Think of all the chickens and eggs and dairy that is needed to feed them and how happy the farmers are to have customers like this, and think of all the legitimate work many of the wives do in all sorts of fields, computers, clothing, etc etc etc, all this is fed into the Israeli economy.
Let's for argument's sake say there are 500,000 Chareidi men women and children out of a total Jewish population in Israel of 6 million+ Jews, making that perhaps about one in six Jews, they therefore make up at least one sixth of the clients, customers, consumers, buyers, spenders, quite a huge market. They are not "all" coming to knock on your door nor will they ever. Many will continue to live happily in dire poverty in EY. Others will climb up slowly. Some will become wealthy.
There is no reason why they cannot get their share of the Israeli pie. It has NOTHING to do with going to an army. The army doesn't need such people who are so radically different. If I was head of the army I would tell they are free to get on with their lives, and tell them I am not going to bother them and to have a nice day and just stay safe and keep on learning Torah and get jobs. I would not threaten them because it does not work. It only raises tensions and makes them more determined to defy the outside world and makes life impossible for everyone in Israel. Why would any rational and sane person want that?
@ RAP "Let's for argument's sake say there are 500,000 Chareidi men women and children out of a total Jewish population in Israel of 6 million+ Jews, making that perhaps about one in six Jews,"
DeleteActually, in this case it makes it 1 in 12.
However, RAP makes a very good point - better, in fact, than he realizes. Of that figure, whatever it is, the average haredi family might have 7 kids; the DL will have say 4 kids, secular 2.2 etc (these figures I am just guessing, but they will be along those lines).
B'H this is a good situation, but it does create some economic problems,since the secular will resent seeing a growing sector of Haredi kids who require yeshiva funding form the public purse. It is precisely this dynamic which has led to the success of Lapid/Bennett axis.
Again, I am not criticising anyone here, and if the seculars have 8 kids per family I would also be happy. But it creates a bubble, which has to be sustainable, and it will be increasingly difficult to have a Yeshiva only lifestyle for a growing haredi sector.
Who else do you want to give to?
ReplyDeletepaamonim, sha'arei zedek, keren yeshua, or menecheim, there is a long, almost endless list of worthy causes.
The Israeli army,
they've never asked me for donations. anyway it comes out of my paycheck automatically.
If I was head of the army . . .
go for it.
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2013/03/video-and-audio-shiur-charedim-and.html
ReplyDeleteSatmar rebbe spoke saying that voting (Israeli elections) is the greatest sin in the entire Torah. Chazon Ish said it is a Mitzvah to vote and told all the chareidim they should vote. Seems the Chazon Ish said many things, and also many people made up stories about what he said.
ReplyDelete