says it is not necessary to stop the practise of direct mouth metzitza. These guidelines are currently posted on the web site of the Rabbinate. Israeli newspapers and BHOL on April 8, 2013 reported that the Chief Rabbinate had just issued a clarification of these guidelines. The Rabbinate said that use of the glass tube is permitted l'chatchila and it is preferrable medically. "That the tube reduces significantly reduces the likelihood of infection." If the parents request that the tube not be used then the mohel should explain the dangers associated with that. The parents have the right to insist on the use of a glass tube. Basically - as the year old guidelines currently posted on the Rabbinate website state - the parents have the right to choose whether they want a glass tube utilized.
See previous comments about metzitza
Mohel must give parents choice, and if they choose mbp, then they must be told of possible complications including herpes. Not very different than NYC law.
ReplyDeleteThat's not actually what it says. It says:
DeleteIn appropriate circumstances the mohel should offer the parents the choice.
Unfortunately it does not clarify what those appropriate circumstances are. Leaving it mostly up to the mohel to decide when to even offer the parents a choice.
ככל שהנסיבות מתאימות, על המוהל להציע למשפחה הבחירה בין מציצה ישירה בפה לבין מציצה בשפופרת
ReplyDeleteIn appropriate circumstances the mohel should offer the parents the choice between MBP and suction by tube (pipette)
That is my favorite line, because it is such a hedge. Ultimately it leaves it up to the Mohel as to whether he gives the parents a choice, while giving the Rabbinut the ability to cover their bases so to speak.
Ramatz, you claimed earlier that if a Mohel does not perform MBP in Israel, he will lose his license.
DeleteYes I did. I've been a Mohel for 4yrs. This paper came out just a year ago... I didn't know about it until yesterday. Things change.
DeleteThough, considering that the paper ends with the Psak of Rav Eliashiv, it would appear that they fully expect their mohelim to do MBP.
I also said I didn't want to get into what will happen in each different city. In Jerusalem, the local certifying board is quite insistent. Which has been, and continues to be one of the weaknesses of Rabbinut. Even with a National standard, it is still interpreted by the local religious councils who act as their representatives.
PS I said if he did not perform MBP without compelling reason. Which is also, largely up to the judgement of the mohel.
DeleteYou claimed a mohel could not pass his exam (administrated by the chief rabbinate) without mbp.
DeleteSince you went to do the exam four years ago, I am a bit shocked...
Could doing mbp while carrying herpes also fail a candidate?
Could doing mbp while carrying herpes also fail a candidate?
DeleteCarrying no. Even according to their now slightly amended position, a carryier does not need to not do MBP. Someone who has an active infection and is communicable, yes he would fail if he did MBP.
Also see page 6 of the Rabbinut position paper where they clearly state that it should be assumed that 100% of people with a Yeshiva background do MBP. Considering you need five years Yeshiva background to test with the Rabbinut...
Even this new paper, still assumes that MBP is the norm, and that the mohel won't give the parents a choice unless there are "appropriate circumstances."
There are numerous reasons for the rabbinate to ban Metziza - and I stress the word "ban" rather than just advise against it.
ReplyDelete1. It is now "out there" as an issue and it portrays Milah and therefore Jews as barbaric. It undermines support for the legality of Milah bichlal in places where there are campaigns to ban it, particularly in Europe and specifically in Germany, where a rabbi and a mohel are currently facing investigation for performing it in a country which is currently legislating to officially permit Bris Milah. MBP threatens this and is today a clear act of Chilul Hasem befarhesiah. If Bris Miloh is threatened in any way by governments, I think we can call that besha'as hashmad which in itself, is another reason halachik reason to officially ban the practice.
2. It undermines Jewish support for and practice of Milah - one of the only mitzvos almost universally performed by Jews, however unobservant in other mitzvot.
3. It is at least an issue of sofek pikuach nefesh and probably more than that.
4. No-one - including Chasidim - claim that not doing metziza renders a Bris non-valid - which implies that it is not integral to the mitzvo.
5. Numerous halachik authorities, not least the Chasam Sofer, advocated the use of a tube.
6. If you will forgive the analogy, metzizo bapeh is a rodef against Bris Milah and potentially, mohelim who perform it are rodfim against the babies. Jews and rabbonim are machayev to condemn it.
Leaving it up to the mohelim or even the parents is a cop-out position by rabbonim and totally unacceptable.
I will not comment, as the rest of you have done a fine job in countering Michael's prior claims (about the Rabbanut and its milah certification process) which have now been shown to be not entirely accurate.
ReplyDeleteTell me that when you become a certified Mohel. One updated position paper, which still encourages MBP, does not show any of my claims(or experiences with Rabbinut) to be false.
DeleteThough it does show that things at Rabbinut may change. 10yrs ago you needed to take three tests to get a Rabbinut Semikha, today you need to take six.
Things change. That doesn't mean that MBP is not the expected method from Rabbinut. Clearly from their position paper it is, if it wasn't they would be quoting Shlomo Riskin at the end, not Rav Wosner and Rav Eliashiv.
What is the norm for adult milah. Is it also MBP?
ReplyDeleteYes. According to the texts that one must learn for Milah certification(Bigdei Kodesh by Rav Shimon Dror, Milah Shleima by Rav Shlomo Shochet and Otzar Milah by I don't remember who) one should perform MBP without a kli on an adult that undergoes full milah(as opposed to hatafat dam brit), such as a Russian Ger(part of the reason they have a hard time finding mohelim for the Russian Gerim).
DeleteOk, Michael, enough. You're simply wrong. In the past two hours, I've spoken to two orthodox rabbis in Israel. Rabbanut certified mohelim. Both told me that although the rabbanut texts teach MBP, and "encourage" it, they clearly permit the mohel to perform metzitzah with a glass pipette. And stating that that is your method of choice will not prevent you from getting certified. (And both have been certified for over eight years, so you cannot claim this was a change in policy since you received your certification.)
ReplyDeleteSo, if a medical study is published about "Rabbanut certified mohelim" you cannot assume that all of the circumcisions performed were with MBP - unless the paper gives specific data.
You clearly do milah as you were instructed, based on legitimate halachic sources. But stop impugning other equally legitimate mohelim who follow other equally legitimate sources
I assume you are talking about the Ben Haim study. Like I quoted it verbatim from the Hebrew original that MBP was done in the cases studied.
DeleteNames of the Rabbinut certified mohelim or they don't exist. Anonymous commentors quoting anonymous sources have zero credibility.
I wrote a question to the (sefardi) chief rabbinate in Israel to verify Ramatz's claims. I am waiting for an answer...
ReplyDelete