While researching the issue of the obligation to be a nice person, the question occurred as to how does one understand the concept of me'urav im habrios. We see here in Kesubos it means that one should even lie so as not to upset others. The Rambam (Hilchos De'os 6:1) presents it as an inherent property of human nature to be like others and thus one should be careful in selecting one's friends. Such an idea seems to be diametrically opposed to the gemora's understanding. I would appreciate some discussion - especially with relevant texts.
update Toldos Yitzchok (Bereishis 37:2-3): Our Sages say that a person should not stand when everyone else is sitting nor should he sit if everyone else is standing. He should not be sad when everyone else is happy nor should he be happy when everyone else is sad. Rather a person should always have the attitude to do what everyone else is doing (Kesubos 17a). We see also that Yosef acted self‑centered and conceited when he was with others who were that way. He acted as an immature adolescent when he was with other adolescents and as a wise man when he was with other wise men. Thus when he was with his conceited brothers who were the sons of Leah he would supervise and direct them and dominate them. In contrast when he was with the sons of Bilah and Zilpah he would act immaturely and be concerned with his hair. We also know that his father loved him more than any of his brothers since he was the son of old age. In other words he acted as if he were a comrade of his father – he behaved with the wisdom and maturity of his father
update Avodas HaMelech (Hilchos De’os 6:1): It is an inherent characteristic in man to be drawn after the views of others….and to act like others in society. Look at Derech Eretz Rabba (end of chapter 7), The general principle is that a person should not be different than his comrades and other members of society. Thus it states in Kesubos (17a), The attitude of a man should always be to get along and fit in with other people. The Migdal Oz alludes to this. It also says in Shemos Rabba (47:5), If you go to a city, you must act according to their customs.[Moshe did not eat or drink when he was in Heaven while the angels ate and drink when they descended to earth]
update Toldos Yitzchok (Bereishis 37:2-3): Our Sages say that a person should not stand when everyone else is sitting nor should he sit if everyone else is standing. He should not be sad when everyone else is happy nor should he be happy when everyone else is sad. Rather a person should always have the attitude to do what everyone else is doing (Kesubos 17a). We see also that Yosef acted self‑centered and conceited when he was with others who were that way. He acted as an immature adolescent when he was with other adolescents and as a wise man when he was with other wise men. Thus when he was with his conceited brothers who were the sons of Leah he would supervise and direct them and dominate them. In contrast when he was with the sons of Bilah and Zilpah he would act immaturely and be concerned with his hair. We also know that his father loved him more than any of his brothers since he was the son of old age. In other words he acted as if he were a comrade of his father – he behaved with the wisdom and maturity of his father
update Avodas HaMelech (Hilchos De’os 6:1): It is an inherent characteristic in man to be drawn after the views of others….and to act like others in society. Look at Derech Eretz Rabba (end of chapter 7), The general principle is that a person should not be different than his comrades and other members of society. Thus it states in Kesubos (17a), The attitude of a man should always be to get along and fit in with other people. The Migdal Oz alludes to this. It also says in Shemos Rabba (47:5), If you go to a city, you must act according to their customs.[Moshe did not eat or drink when he was in Heaven while the angels ate and drink when they descended to earth]
Kesubos(17a): Beis Hillel said to Beis Shammai, Someone who made a bad purchase in the market, should one praise it in his eyes or deprecate it in his eyes? Surely one should praise it in his eyes! From here our Sages say that the attitude of a man should always be to get along
and fit in with other people [me’urav im habri’os].
Rambam(Hilchos De'os 6:1) [translation Rabbi Tougher] It is natural for a man's character and actions to be influenced by his friends and associates and for him to follow the local norms of behavior. Therefore, he should associate with the righteous and be constantly in the company of the wise, so as to learn from their deeds. Conversely, he should keep away from the wicked who walk in darkness, so as not to learn from their deeds.
Rambam(Hilchos De'os 6:1) [translation Rabbi Tougher] It is natural for a man's character and actions to be influenced by his friends and associates and for him to follow the local norms of behavior. Therefore, he should associate with the righteous and be constantly in the company of the wise, so as to learn from their deeds. Conversely, he should keep away from the wicked who walk in darkness, so as not to learn from their deeds.
This is [implied by] Solomon's statement (Proverbs 13:20): "He who walks with the wise will become wise, while one who associates with fools will suffer." Similarly, Psalms 1:1 states: "Happy is the man who has not followed the advice of the wicked."
A person who lives in a place where the norms of behavior are evil and the inhabitants do not follow the straight path should move to a place where the people are righteous and follow the ways of the good.
If all the places with which he is familiar and of which he hears reports follow improper paths, as in our times, or if he is unable to move to a place where the patterns of behavior are proper, because of [the presence of] bands of raiding troops, or for health reasons, he should remain alone in seclusion as [Eichah 3:28] states: "Let him sit alone and be silent."
If they are wicked and sinful and do not allow him to reside there unless he mingle with them and follow their evil behavior, he should go out to caves, thickets, and deserts [rather than] follow the paths of sinners Jeremiah 9:1 states: "Who will give me a lodging place for wayfarers, in the desert."
A person who lives in a place where the norms of behavior are evil and the inhabitants do not follow the straight path should move to a place where the people are righteous and follow the ways of the good.
If all the places with which he is familiar and of which he hears reports follow improper paths, as in our times, or if he is unable to move to a place where the patterns of behavior are proper, because of [the presence of] bands of raiding troops, or for health reasons, he should remain alone in seclusion as [Eichah 3:28] states: "Let him sit alone and be silent."
If they are wicked and sinful and do not allow him to reside there unless he mingle with them and follow their evil behavior, he should go out to caves, thickets, and deserts [rather than] follow the paths of sinners Jeremiah 9:1 states: "Who will give me a lodging place for wayfarers, in the desert."
I see no contradiction. The Gemara is speaking of being pleasant to people who behave properly. The Rambam is speaking of avoiding improper people.
ReplyDeletei agree with avraham. you go to a supermarket and make a nice remark about the tomatoes. that doesn't mean that the gemara thinks that it would be OK to live in a drug infested area where everyone watches tv 24/7.
Deletethe rambam is saying that people inherently are me'urav im habrios and therefore one should avoid communities that will corrput him. In contrast the gemora says that a person has to work at it and that one can even lie in order to fit in with others. thus it is very unnatural!
Deleteor explain the gemara and rambam as follows: the natural thing is do what society teaches you to do (acculturate). therefore one has to pick a good society.
Deletesometimes there are other factors that come into play. for example, maybe society (or your instincts) tell you that telling the truth is the supreme value. however if by telling someone that he bought a bad tomato (the truth) you are going to hurt his feelings, than it is OK to lie.
the only "unnatural" thing here is the need to take the feelings of others into consideration.
this is more of what I had in mind - but the parameters needs to be sharpened. Especially when the "unnatural" thing thatis being prescribed apparently is sinful as Beis Shammai points out.
DeleteI don't agree with this Gemara, simply from a logical viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteLet's say RDE buys some stocks at a high price, from a lousy company. Should i tell him well done? or tell him he made a mistake, and perhaps save him from greater loss?
Eddie no one cares whether you agree with the gemora - the gemora is the authority not you. The question is establishing the parameters of when the view of the gemora applies. In general gemora makes absolute statements when in fact they are not.
DeleteI have provided a sevora, and the issue is whether my sevora is correct. would Chazal accept a sevora from an Am haaretz? If they would, then your assertion is mistaken. If not, then you are justified in your comment.
DeleteEddie the issue is not whether Chazal accept a sevora from an Am haaretz. It is simply to remind you that when you give your understanding of the gemora it is irrelevant and inappropriate to say "I don't agree with the Gemora". It is no different than a 3 year old going over to a parent and announcing "I am bigger than you and I don't have to listen to what you tell me." You are simply discrediting your contribution to the discussion and indicating that you don't understand the most elementary rules of Torah discourse.
DeleteAgain the question is establishing the parameters of when the statement of the gemora applies - not whether it is right or wrong. I assume you would agree that it does apply some of the time?
Yes, I do agree that question is establishing the parameters of when the statement of the gemora applies .
DeleteBut this is an important discussion in general, and I think the broader discussion is worthy of some debate. I base my general arguments on several Torah sources:
a) The Torah specifies korbanaot for when a matter is hidden from the Sanhedrin or the highest BD. This matter can come up at an point for them to reevaluate or to become liable for the Korban. This is regardless of whether my point on the above topic is correct or not.
b) Again , notwithstanding my particular comments on this specific Gemara, the Mishna in several places to always admit to the Emes. It brings cases where Chazal admitted the truth after begin corrected by the lowliest person in society. That is not a carte blanche for anyone to disagree wherever they see fit.
c) Even if we put aside the issue of whether an ordinary man can raise a sevara, Rambam writes that sometimes a majority will defer to a single view, because his argument is so clear and convincing.
d) Just a few posts ago you brought another gemara that says the opposite of what you are arguing here - i.e. one has to be novel , to reach the truth in Torah, or as you put it "irrelevant and inappropriate". Now this argument, would also apply as a counter to the our gemara, i.e. perhaps on some occasions we can be rude to or neighbours, if it is for the sake of truth.
Now, I also admit that my language was controversial. My case can be equally or better put that in certain paramaters, perhaps there is a counter argument that appears in Torah, eg to also care for one's fellow's wealth. So if I were to rephrase my point, then I think there is less or little disagreement.
Eddie don't know why you had to write anything other than the last paragraph. Not every point requires a Sanhedrin or a prophet
DeleteThe people in my community let their children play video games (nintendo DS) and some let them watch Disney movies. I don't want to let my children play video games or watch movies. Do I need to move?
ReplyDeleteI don't see the Gemara saying one has to work on it. The Gemara is saying that one can even lie to keep up good relations, something one would not do by guidance of one's natural inclination.
ReplyDeleteyou need to work on something which isn't natural or normal. Saying a lie to promote good relationships is something the Rambam would assume is natural while the gemora needs to tell you to do it because it views this as against ones nature
Delete> it as an inherent property of human nature to be like others and thus one should be careful in selecting one's friends. Such an idea seems to be diametrically opposed to the gemora's understanding.
ReplyDeleteThe Mishnah in Avos reinforces this, advising us to keep away from bad friends and neighbours. If there was no concern of influence, why would that matter?
Saying a lie would normally be forbidden. The Gemara needs to innovate that in order to get on with people this prohibition is relaxed. How would we know this otherwise?
ReplyDeleteBut the Rambam does not say any such thing - thus this is evidence that the Rambam had a different attitude then represented by Beis Hillil in this gemora. Rambam apparently agrees with Beis Shammai
DeletePerhaps also relevant to this discussion, are the words of the Chovos Halvovos in Shar Avodos Elokim Perek 5, concern whether we should try to curry favor in the eyes of people - his answer is a very empathetic NO!:
ReplyDelete(היצר) ישוב לפתותך ולהטעותך בנפשך). :
[יש לעסוק גם בענייני בני אדם] ויאמר לך: כמה אני שמח בעניינך על אמונתך הטובה ולבך השלם לאלוהים, וכבר הגעת ממעלות החסד מה שלא הגיע אליו זולתך בדורך, ויש בו יותר מדאי מהודאתך לבורא על טובתו וחסדו, וראוי לך להנהיג עצמך גם כן לפרוע קצת חובות בני אדם, כי כבר ידעת כי הם סבות תועלתך והזקתך. וכבר נתברר לנו כי ברצותם אותך תהיה תפארתך, ובהתקצפם עליך יהיה חסרונך. על כן השתדל במה שיפיק רצונם, ותמצא חן בעיניהם, כמו שאמרו רבותינו זיכרונם לברכה 'כל שרוח הבריות נוחה הימנו רוח המקום נוחה הימנו'.
השב עליו: ומה יועיל לי בהתרצות אל חלש כמוני, אשר אין ביכולתו להועיל לי ולא להזיק? ואמר הכתוב (ישעיה ב) חדלו לכם מן האדם וגו'. ואפילו אם היה חובה, איך אוכל לרצות כל בני דורי, ואין ביכולתי לרצות בני ביתי, כל שכן זולתם. ומה שזכרת מדברי רבותינו זיכרונם לברכה בעניין הזה, אינו מחייב להשתדל במשיכת רצון כל הבריות. אבל הוא כמו שאמר אחד החכמים בצוואתו לבנו: בני, הפק רצון כל הבריות אינה ביכולתך, אבל השתדל להפיק רצון הבורא ויעשך רצוי לבריות. כמו שכתוב (משלי טז) ברצות ה' דרכי איש גם אויביו ישלים אתו.
וכן מי שכל הבריות מקטנם ועד גדולם מודים ומשבחים אותו, ורוצים את מעשיו, ראיה היא כי האל יתברך זרע לו אהבה בלבות בני אדם, ושם לו שם טוב על לשונם. וזה אין הבורא עושה אותו לשונאיו. והוא לראיה ברורה וגדולה על רצות הבורא אותו. אבל שיהיה האדם החסיד משתדל וטורח במה שישבחוהו בני אדם על עבודתו לאלוהים, אין זה ממנהגי החסידים. על כן הזהר מזה והדומה לו מפתויי היצר לך, כי הוא משתדל להדריכך בה עד שיפילך במצודת החונף.
I would think "me'urav" here means sweeten, like "veha'arev na es diverei Sorasekha befinu...". Not "to mix", as you seem to be taking it with "to be like others".
ReplyDeleteMnemonic trick: Clearly the shoresh ayin-reish-beis proves that it's the mixing that makes tea sweet, not the sugar!
Beis Hillel assumes you have to work at providing the sweetner in order to mix well with others while the Rambam seems to assume that mixing happens automatically and requires no effort - and therefore one needs to avoid situation that lead to unhealthy mixing
DeleteI don't see how you can codify this ideal. It changes from time to time and from place to place.
ReplyDeleteWhen people started wearing short suit jackets after moving to a new town, was this an expression of Me'urav Im HaBriyos? What about someone who finds themselves as the only person who B'Davka stands during Krias HaTorah. Should he sit?