Thursday, December 27, 2012

Divorce: When wife is disgusting or useless

Chinuch (#579): Divorce requires a document:  [see post of Abarbanel]   The basis of this mitzva is that since a woman was created to help her husband and she is to him like an desirable utensil. A similar idea is expressed in Sanhedrin (22b), A woman does not make a covenant except with one who makes her into a utensil. Since a woman is there to serve a purpose, it is the will of G‑d that when he is disgusted with this utensil he should remove it from his house. Because of this reason there are some of our Sages who say in Gittin (90a) that even if she burns his food he is able to divorce her i.e., for a trivial matter since she is nothing but a valued utensil in his house. However others Sages say that since she is in G‑d’s form and image and G‑d prepared her for her husband’s needs and honor – with eyes to see and ears to hear and intelligence – it is not right to reject her and send out of his house except for a major reason. This is as the verse says, “Because he found in her ervas davar (something disgusting).” Nevertheless according to all the Sages, if he finds some major problem with her it is correct to divorce her. That is because of the reason I mentioned, that she was only created for his sake. And since she is causing him upset and he is disgusted with her there is no necessity for him to remain with her. The Jewish approach is not that of some of the non-Jews who make a strong binding commitment to marriage that is only ended by death. A man should not be afraid to divorce his wife if she does something repellent and destroys all that is in the house and burns down all of his possessions. However the Torah commands that when she is sent away that it shouldn’t be done by words alone because this can lead to much trouble and immorality in our society. Because a wife who is committing adultery could simply claim that she was already divorced. In addition if divorce is too easy to do then it becomes very common. Consequently the Torah requires that a divorce be based on a written document and that there be witnesses who testify and that all those who claim to be divorced can show it. An additional advantage of a complicated written procedure over an oral agreement is that the delay and effort can cause the man’s anger to dissipate sometimes and he will decide not to divorce his wife and great is peace...

23 comments :

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    1. It explains the Torah view of marriage and divorce. You think you can understand the Torah view without seeing what our sages say?

      this is similar to the view of the Abarbanel that I have posted.

      What is your problem?

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    2. I think the problem is that, sage or no sage, describing women as utensils created to serve men does not jibe with our deepest sensibilities as human beings. Just because there's a source for it doesn't make it true. And something that's true does not necessarily need a source. There are things we are supposed to know whether or not it's stated explicitly in the Torah ("mitzvos sichlios"). That men and women have equal inherent value is one those things many people would say they know to be true, irrespective of the Chinuch's position.

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    3. No one is speaking of inherent value. The Chinuch is referring to a persons job/role in the relationship of marriage. The Torah also commands the husband to honor his wife more than himself. Care to argue against that as well? ("Just because there is a Torah source doesn't make it true...") Do you pick and choose according to what doesn't offend your Western sensibilities?

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    4. @Raffi you can't ignore the halachic foundation of marriage and divorce. You can argue that you have to be sensitive and fair - but if that is not guaranteed by law or custom then you are at the mercy of someone who insists on following the letter of the law.

      "That men and women have equal inherent value is one those things many people would say they know to be true, irrespective of the Chinuch's position."

      Yes many people would say it is true until the couple decides to get divorced. One can not rely on the goodness and sensitivity of a spouse that hates you.

      My son's 3rd grade rebbe told me that the thing which is hardest for his students to accept is that life is not fair!

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    5. @mike: "No one is speaking of inherent value. "
      Really? "a woman was created to help her husband"...

      "Do you pick and choose according to what doesn't offend your Western sensibilities?"
      There is a problem with discarding all my "Western sensibilities" in favor of what certain rabbis have said, namely, G-d gave me a brain and He expects me to use it. Although we are supposed to subjugate ourselves to the Torah, we are not supposed to throw away our brains and blindly follow anything that's written down (not that that would even be possible). Are you recommending we try?

      @DT: "if that is not guaranteed by law or custom then you are at the mercy of someone who insists on following the letter of the law."
      I know - I am trying to understand how the Torah can create/condone some situations that just don't make sense to me. On the other hand, in some respects you are incorrect. Halacha might allow for people not to pay taxes, or to receive government aid even when not deserving of it - yet I don't believe that is the right thing to do, and nobody citing a mekor is going to convince me otherwise. The naval b'rshus haTorah is not some "Western sensibility."

      "Yes many people would say it is true until the couple decides to get divorced. One can not rely on the goodness and sensitivity of a spouse that hates you."
      I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm not suggesting we do everything by the honor system! I'm just saying that to cast all women as utensils created for men simply doesn't work for me. Certainly we should have laws, but "tough luck, ladies" doesn't cut it.

      "My son's 3rd grade rebbe told me that the thing which is hardest for his students to accept is that life is not fair!"
      Again I don't understand the relevance. If I swipe your wallet and you tell me that's wrong, will you be satisfied with "well, life's not fair"? "Life's not fair" means sometimes good people get cancer and bad people get away with things. It does NOT mean that if you're born a woman, hey, tough luck, you don't really matter as much.

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  2. At last someone who publishes the truth for everyone to read. No fancy window-dressing. The wife is an object, as long as she functions, she can stay in the house, once you are fed up just throw her out (and put a younger one in her place).

    Oh, and if she wants to do the same: kill her!

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    1. Why should she have to function? Rather - the man must support her, take care of medical expenses, give her time and attention, treat her with kindness and all the other obligations the Torah places on him. She need do nothing at all and be guarenteed such treatment for life. Sounds like feminist Western style marriage. i.e. slavery of the husband to the entitled princess.

      If the Torah places all obligations on the man, which it does, then he must own the relationship and be able to end it at will. Or no man in his right mind would sign up for such slavery.

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    2. @remark - the problem is that you are ignoring subsequent developments in halacha and hashkofa such Kesuba. The debate in the gemora as to what justification could a man divorce his wife - became irrelevant when the cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom prohibited forcing a wife to accept the Get.

      In sum, this Chinuch is an accurate reflection of the Torah law as understood by the gemora in Gittin 90a. However it is not an accurate understanding of what marriage is today. It is important however to understand the starting point of the process.

      Don't know why you add the nonsense about killing the wife.

      BTW given your consistent strong negative reaction on these issues against halacha - are you married?



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    3. Killing wife: if the wife is fed up with her husband, he is not obliged to let her go, as was stated repeatedly on this blog (rather he should let her rot without a get till she has white her). So the only possibility is for her to take her new lover-boy without having a get, which would be adultery and liable to death penalty.

      therefore: husband throws wife away: no problem, he should preferably pay her the ketuba, but he will always be able to find a meal she burned to get around it.

      wife throws husband away: no get. She takes a lover: death penalty.

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    4. "are you married?"

      The only reasonable solution for a jewish woman, in light of jewish matrimonial law, get refusal, get extortion, rabbis' inaction is: marry a non-jewish man, so she won't need a get.

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    5. Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is NOT universally accepted by all yidden. For example, nom-Ashkenazim (sefardim, teimanim, etc.) do NOT subscribe to the cherem.

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    6. "are you married?"

      The only reasonable solution for a jewish woman, in light of jewish matrimonial law, get refusal, get extortion, rabbis' inaction is: marry a non-jewish man, so she won't need a get.
      ===========================
      Why can't you answer my question? your reply is anonymous and I have no access to IP that might enable me to identify yourself. Given the level of pain and anger radiating from your posts it would be helpful to know why.

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    7. dave wrote:
      Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is NOT universally accepted by all yidden. For example, nom-Ashkenazim (sefardim, teimanim, etc.) do NOT subscribe to the cherem.

      that is true and that is why the nature of marriage in those communities is different. changes in halacha make huge differences in the nature of relationships

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    8. RDE: How are marriages different by Sefardim? In what sense did you mean?

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    9. Just as starters remembers that Rabbeinu Gershom doesn't allow more than one wife. He doesn't allow a woman to be forced to accept a get. Rema notes that there are views that a husband who insists on believing his wife's confession to adultery is nullifing the decree of Rabbeinu Gershom. Put these all together and you will get an idea of what happens when you don't have these decrees

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  3. Congratulations, you made it to failed messiah. I'm sure that source will be discussed over there too, only that his censoring policy might be slightly different from yours...

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    1. Are you saying that as praise of what I posted or as proof of the opposite.

      I think it is better that the views of accepted authorities be discussed fully rather than hidden in the closet out of a sense of shame. There is no question that this Chinuch is not in accord with modern sensibilities - but it is important to understand how it does relate to the modern world and what changes have occurred and the mechansim and motivation for those changes.

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  4. This is the type of thing that turned me off from yidishkeit

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    1. @observer - tell me about how marriage in the non-Jewish world is superior? explain to me why if non-Jewish marriage is superior that so many who are not observant Jews don't both getting married but simply live together. Or are you disgusted with marriage in any form?

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  5. http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2012/12/thurrsday-night-session-recap-at-agudah.html

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  6. I asked the great Gaon and Cabalist Rabbi Shmuel Taubenfeld of Monsey what the secret of a good marriage is. He relied, "To know that in Cabala the female is superior to the male." The first Jewess was a greater prophet than her husband. Soro was greater than Avrohom in prophecy as HaShem told Abraham, "Everything your wife tells you hearken to her voice." The Matriarchs had a burning candle on their tents and light that was a sign of the Schechina dwelling in their tests, but this did not happen in the tents of the Patriarchs. The men worshiped the Golden Calf not the women. At least, that is how we talk in my house. Heichal Brocho has a huge discussion about the superiority of the left force over the right force, the left is very much superior. The female is the left force. But the street is the dimension of the man and he rules it. The female is somewhat angelic until she goes into the street, and she can be destroyed there, unlike the man who belongs there.

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  7. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on divorce. Well, if couples think it's no longer working, then perhaps divorce is the ideal choice. Just saying :)

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