Thursday, December 13, 2012

What means are permissible in fight against abuse?

I just received this letter. I think it raises some very important issues and would like an open discussion.

Rabbi can you clarify this on the blog. If catching child molesters is our obligation and we must work with law enforcement to accomplish this end is it alright to sit with news media hostile to the frum community and Israel? What purpose does this serve other than create a huge Chillul Hashem? Is it alright to become partners with people like Vicki Polin to accomplish these ends. Basically do the "ends justify the means".To me they obviously don't but I am no posek .I have learned so much from what you post and the answers to questions I have posed .The blog is excellent .We see that what is reported is sometimes false as the twitter story was. So giving information to unreliable sources doesn't seem like a good idea.Thank You.

First of all if you are asking whether compromises are permitted if needed - the answer is obviously yes
 For example Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked regarding a community in South America where the leader who had done much good was a doctor married to a non-Jew. The question is could this community honor him to encourage him to continue. The answer was yes - but that there were restrictions on how they could honor him.

The issue of abuse is complicated. As Rabbi Zweibel of the Aguda has acknowledged - significant work to get the issue dealt with was the result of blogs - some of which are strongly anti-Torah and involve direct insults to Torah and its Sages. Realistically if it hadn't been for bloggers and people willing to speak to newspapers - such as the New York magazine - nothing would have happened. So on the one hand there was little chance of change without publicizing the matter in the secular or non-Orthodox press. But there is an additional heter for causing this chilul hashem.That is because the coverups themselves are a greater chilul hashem then the existence of abuse. So you have on the one hand the chilul haShem of exposing that abuse does occur in the Orthodox world as it does in other communities. But by covering it up and allow abuse to happen - when it is going to eventual be revealed - is a much greater chilul hashem. It is one thing for a warped individual to abuse but when the community leadership and rabbis in the name of Torah betray the victim in the name of religion - it is much worse.

So again it is a question of whether there was an alternative which would not involve chilul hashem of associating with problematic individuals and media exposure? As the issue becomes more mainstream the need for making compromises is significantly reduced.

94 comments :

  1. If the exposure of a cover up is what is feared why does Rabbi Rosenberg expose the cover up?If ploni goes to the press because something happened I understand but if there is a cover up taking place the heter to expose it is to discourage future cover ups?Is that what this means.This is very complicated .I am not sure I understand this.

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    1. Yes exposing coverups makes it less likely that they will happen in the future.

      the coverups contributes significantly to the trauma of the abuse. victims assume that parents, teachers rabbis will protect them - instead they are told they will be vilified if they don't shut up.

      yes that is what is meant by this is very complicated

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    2. Question-Aren't the laws concerning handling a rodef and a moser extrajudicial by definition?In a regular murder trial by the Sanhedrin the bar for evidence was very high.Here we find a sharp contrast.If a rodef is in the middle of chasing a boy,an engaged girl,a man for the purposes of sinningyou have an immediate obligation to save the person.I would just like to point out that I am simply addressing a theory in Halacha not the Halacha L'masseh.I think understanding the nature of the halchos was the purpose of this blog and I don't feel it is justified to attack me as a "paid hack or troll" for getting a deeper understanding for the nature and reasons behind the dinim especially these ones which in a civilized society do seem to be rather controversial .I think it is preposterous to say that a rodef gets his day in court because so many of the cases that are brought down indicate the situations are immediate as are the actions that must be taken.Is this not the theory behind the mitzva. Also we see that dina demalchusa is trumped by masira.Why?

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    3. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 2:43 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...Question-Aren't the laws concerning handling a rodef and a moser extrajudicial by definition?In a regular murder trial by the Sanhedrin the bar for evidence was very high.Here we find a sharp contrast.If a rodef is in the middle of chasing a boy,an engaged girl,a man for the purposes of sinningyou have an immediate obligation to save the person.I would just like to point out that I am simply addressing a theory in Halacha not the Halacha L'masseh."

      RaP: My, my, look at Mr. Super Lamden at work -- all to justify a murder...but of WHO exactly? That is the $64000 question in this Agathie Chrystie whodunit? This is getting real eerie and macabre and bloodthirsty, like trying to figure out who the vampire really is?

      "I think understanding the nature of the halchos was the purpose of this blog and I don't feel it is justified to attack me as a "paid hack or troll" for getting a deeper understanding for the nature and reasons behind the dinim especially these ones which in a civilized society do seem to be rather controversial ."

      RaP: Ok, so maybe you are a troll "leshem shomayim (gehenom?)" (paid or nor paid), but a troll nevertheless because of the way you want to spin and derail the discussions the way this blog presents them. Nice try but sorry, no cigar!

      "I think it is preposterous to say that a rodef gets his day in court because so many of the cases that are brought down indicate the situations are immediate as are the actions that must be taken.Is this not the theory behind the mitzva."

      RaP: Who is this rodef that you are chasing all over this blog and all over town? In the Weberman case it could either be that Weberman is the rodef, while in the eyes of Weberman-Satmar the girl who was abused by Weberman is the rodef. It is not clear who you are trying to point fingers at and bump off, because as you keep on wanting to point out all the wonderful things Satmar does (and they do, with no thanks to you) and that you only mean to talk "in theory" so that according to your way of arguing, "in theory" Weberman could be just as innocent and the girl/s he abused is the "real" rodef. Just what are you up to mister lamden?

      "Also we see that dina demalchusa is trumped by masira."

      RaP: Really, where do you see this, from one or two cases in the Middle Ages? Do you think we are in those times now??

      "Why?"

      RaP: Your question is your answer because you are not here to look for answers, you are here to give the answers, Mr. Toras Rodef lamden expert. Go write a sefer about it, it will be a best-seller in Satmar, and the Mafia, probably.

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    4. I never said I was a lamdan.DT said my questions were valid.You have chosen to ridicule me by calling them Klotz Kashas.I don't know any contemporary cases.After all of this, I get the feeling you think I am chasing you.You have many wrong ideas.Not every weak person or person who needs to be protected is a child or woman.An adult male could be a victim of a the same abuse that the girl in Williamsburg went through as well.Not every abuser is Jewish or male.There are way stronger and more powerful forces than a yeshiva in Brooklyn .

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  2. I think the question of what Chillul Hashem means. We take it simply to say if anyone knows anything that the Jewish people did wrong that is chillul hashem. It could very well be that if people see that Jews are zealous about enforcing law and order, protecting the abused, and punishing the abusers, then that will cause a kiddush Hashem rather than a chillul hashem. No people is perfect, but if we show that we care about justice, and protecting the abused even if it so to speak shows the darker side of certain people who happen to be Jewish, that is a kiddush hashem. If Jewish people aren't even scared about protecting people from choshuve rabbonim and talmidei chachomim, kal vachomer it will protect them from ordinary people. Something like the kal vachomer with Aharon's sons. It might be time we stopped hiding people's mistakes but rather come out with full force to protect the weak, the poor and the abused.

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  3. R. Eidensohn,

    I'm very glad to see this question asked because it dove-tails with an initiative I saw in the paper today that I wanted to share with you.

    Most of us do not have a chance to actively participate in this fight and I hope most of us are never in such a position, since other than report situations we are familiar with (r"l) there is not a lot for us to offer. Generally the best we can do is to be "opinion leaders", even if only in a small way, and contribute to a climate where cases of abuse are reported to the authorities.

    Today, however, there seems to be an opportunity to put our money where our mouth is and help support an individual with an excellent track record in this area serve in this capacity on an international level. I would greatly appreciate it if you (and some of the other opinion leaders on this topic from our community..or others) publicize this opportunity.

    http://seattlepolicefoundation.org/support-detective-bob-shilling/

    SPD’s Detective Bob Shilling has tracked down some of our state’s and nation’s worst sex offenders, written or co-authored numerous laws to help protect our children, and in the process has made a name for himself as one of the world’s most sought after experts in catching child predators. When the world’s most prestigious crime fighting organization, Interpol, had a position available to lead their Crimes Against Children Group, they offered the position to Detective Shilling. Detective Shilling was honored and after speaking to his family, accepted. This is the first time in Interpol history that a municipal level police detective has been offered this highly distinguished position. Detective Shilling will also become the first American to hold this position.
    The position coordinates efforts for the agency’s 190 member countries and helps implement best practices globally. SPD, the Mayor’s office and the City Council have all supported Detective Shilling’s appointment to this prestigious position and now it’s our turn as a community.
    Detective Shilling is required by Interpol, located in Lyon, France, to secure funding for his living expenses for the three year assignment. SPD will continue to pay his salary. Typically the federal government covers funding for Americans assigned to Interpol, but will not be doing so for Detective Shilling. The SPD is proud and honored that one of their own would be tasked to lead the worldwide coordination of stopping and preventing crimes against children, and have pledged to support the best individual for the job. Therefore, the Seattle Police Foundation is collecting donations to support the required living expense fund for the position. Donations will be given to the SPD as a grant to assist with this requirement. No funds will go directly to Detective Shilling. Any donations received over the amount needed will go towards supporting SPD’s efforts to prevent and stop crimes against children.

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  4. I cannot understand why those hareidi communities give so strong support to their perpetrators of all stripes.

    On the one hand they are so makpid on tzniut, on the other hand the say that what Weberman did was allowed according to the torah?

    Their efforts to "preserve their image" very much damage their image. They should learn that evil will not go away by shooting the messanger. Now that Weberman was convicted, they should hold a day of fasting and soul-searching to protect their children. They should ask themselves why hashem let them be so blinded that they could not see the pain of the victims, so deaf that they could not hear their outcries. Every day that passes without such an announcement will further damage their image.

    But they do the contrary. They already launched a fundraising appeal for 1 million $ for Weberman's appeal, for a "pidyon shevuim", of course. They write on it that "this could happen anyone" and that the whole Satmar community is on the dock with Weberman. They hide the details that came out during the trial from their community. How will they ever rebuild their credibility if they go on like that?

    On another note: Is it true that the torah condones sex with underage girls? That's what many Weberman-defenders wrote. According to torah law, he would have to pay a compensation to the girl (only if she was a virgin, which she would have to prove, I suppose), but he would never have to go to jail for sex with young, unmarried girls.

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  5. Recipients and PublicityDecember 14, 2012 at 2:10 PM

    "Rabbi can you clarify this on the blog. If catching child molesters is our obligation and we must work with law enforcement to accomplish this end is it alright to sit with news media hostile to the frum community and Israel? What purpose does this serve other than create a huge Chillul Hashem? Is it alright to become partners with people like Vicki Polin to accomplish these ends. Basically do the "ends justify the means".To me they obviously don't but I am no posek .I have learned so much from what you post and the answers to questions I have posed .The blog is excellent .We see that what is reported is sometimes false as the twitter story was. So giving information to unreliable sources doesn't seem like a good idea.Thank You."

    RaP: From the syntax and spacing (or lack of spacing between sentences) it is obvious that this "letter" is from none other than the poster who is now going under the name of "NOSHIE63" who seems to be living in his own world and is puzzled why everyone else does not see it his way.

    Has he not heard of "eilu ve'eilu divrie Elokim chaim"? that Yiddishkeit itself accepts as true that there are different ways of looking at the same thing. Not everyone has to buy into the group-think of one group such as what the official party-line of Satmar is. Not everyone in the Torah world is Satmar and not everything that Satmar says or wants is Tora's Moshe and it's surely not always "Torah min hashamayim" either.

    Satmar chasidim, and rebbes, can do what they want, that's the beauty of living in free democaratic times. We are not in Nazi Germany ch"v, we are not under the the Czars, or the Kaisers or the Commisars y"sh, we are in 21st century modern times and we live in free countries that let us practice and be who we are AS LONG AS WE DON'T HARM OTHERS or break the laws that make us into civilized and democratic countries. This is the situation now, what will be tomorrow or next year nobody knows, let's just be optimistic for now.

    In this society there is a thing known as FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF THE PRESS, and of course FREEDOM OF RELIGION, that are PART OF THE OFFICIAL LAWS of the wonderful "malchus shel chesed" of America and the other Western democracies. All citizens can and do use and rely on these CONSTUTIONALLY guaranteed freedoms without which the country would sink to being a dictatorship and tyranny.

    No political system if perfect, but so far we are doing great under this one, that's a lot better than the Eastern European tyrannies and dictatorships that unfortunately too many Charedi people have "idealized" into a romantic past of the "alte heim." But those days are long gone and we live in a new world that is Western, modern, democratic and free (for now).

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    1. Having lived under Communism and being persecuted by them you actually sound like one of them.Why?Because once they accuse you you are guilty.That is it.You go to a concentration camp,they torture you or they have a firing squad.You have your own pc victimhood "group think" which reminds me of them as well.You sound like a "Good Revolutionary".You don't seem to want to accept the fact that not everybody who is accused is guilty.That is true democracy.I am not in favor of prejudging anybody.

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    2. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 1:50 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...not everybody who is accused is guilty."

      RaP: So are you saying that Weberman should be set free? That his trial was not enough to convict him?

      "That is true democracy."

      RaP: What is? We are talking of democracy as being a free society and not a place where everyone who does a wrong should automatically be let off the hook. Democracy means that the weak are give equality with the strong, so that a weak girl can come to court and give testimony against a strong guy like Weberman, and she can still win.

      "I am not in favor of prejudging anybody."

      RaP: But the jury must make such judgments. They may be right and they may be wrong. In some cases they make sense and other times not. They are human beings, just like the judge, but at the end of the day they give a verdict and that's that. The accused can appeal, even death-row mass murderers can appeal for a long time in the USA. The justice system is not perfect, but it works.

      By the way, where do you see any "PC" thinking on my part?

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    3. This is peladik.How do you read from my words that Weberman should be free???I don't get that?And who is this Tropper that you keep talking about?Mondrowitz I knew as a young man.I believe he is a rodef.Kolko is the guy that that weirdo in Beverly Hills is after.I heard of him.Obviously,I would not let my son in his shiur.Yeah.You are PC because you don't want to let anybody have their day in court .You just believe accusations off the bat because people were not believed in the past so now everybody is guilty.By the way ,after you are done crying for the victims ,the weak,the women etc.Why do you refuse to include in your list the "falsely accused"?If I am a Chasid of anybody it is Dorothy Rabinowitz.

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  6. Recipients and PublicityDecember 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM

    "Rabbi can you clarify this on the blog. If catching child molesters is our obligation and we must work with law enforcement to accomplish this end is it alright to sit with news media hostile to the frum community and Israel?'

    RaP: First of all it's obvious that "NOSHIE63" has one twisted agenda, and that is, to somehow or other equate talking with the press being a form of "mesira" and once he can "prove" that he can use it to "pasul" anyone who ever gets a microphone or camera shoved in their face or speaks with a reporter. This is totally ridiculous. Imagine if before World War Two the press would have put pressure to stop Hitler y"sh instead of appeasing him, or if during the Holocaust every newspaper in the West reported about the Holocaust. Everyone agrees that it would have HELPED THE VICTIMS. Right now we have a situation of a MORAL HOLOCAUST and a form of "Jewish 'antisemitism'" by self-hating and self-destructive Jews against other Jewish victims of sexual and other types of abuse.

    The kids, women and the weak who are suffering from sexual predators, bullies of all stripes and outright gangsterism do not have the powerful rebbes and institutions behind them So "NOSHIE63" (like the Leib Tropper defenders of yesteryear that came on this blog to defend the indefensible acts and "reasons" of Leib Tropper's shenanigans) and his ilk (he must probably be a paid hack to to this) does not want the victims to speak to the press nor to police or judges because hey, it's all "mesira" to call 911 or press charges or get a lawyer or complain to a reporter who is on the case when you are being raped sexually molested in any. Is it "mesira" to call the cops if someone breaks into your house and starts raping your daughter? He just wants the victims to go silently to their personal gas chambers and not make too much noise and rock the boat. What he is saying and implying, is why can't they just go away and rot and die some place else and not create so much noise that interferes with the false image of the Chasidic and Charedi communities being "havens of peace and 'shulem bayis'" when in reality too many people are living in gehenoms!

    So this question is dishonest and shows a complete lack of logic and ignorance and denial about the reality in which Jews live in modern times. It is disingenuous to make such a mish-mash and the expect everyone to travel down that confused and confusing road. Get this straight. Law enforcement is not perfect. Not every cop is an "ohev Yisroel" and not every government prosecutor is honest or willing to act. Let's take the recent case of Charles Hynes.

    For many DECADES Hynes worked with Charedi groups in Brooklyn NOT to prosecute many types of Charedi crooks and sexual predators. Hynes was responsible for letting the notorious Mandrowitz escape, even though Hynes knew what was happening, because Mandrowitz had connections to the powerful Gerrer Chasidim. Hynes let Gershon Kranczer escape to Israel, and avoid prosecution for incest with his own children, even though Hynes knew what was happening, and there are so many cases like this. FINALLY, the past year the New York Times published a series of articles about Hynes's behavior, it seems the Times got help from anti-child molestation activists about what to ask and were provided, so that the light was shined on Hynes and his inept/corrupt practices by letting major Charedi-connected molesters get off the hook while not doing anything for the victims.

    Now finally Hynes has had his first "success" whoopie-doo, how many other Webermans have escaped justice and how many victims are living in their own Holocausts is incalculable, after it took at least 30 years of pushing him, from the day he got in with help of other corrupt molesters backing him. So law enforcement is not perfect, but when pressure is put on them by the media it gets results.

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  7. Recipients and PublicityDecember 14, 2012 at 3:12 PM

    "What purpose does this serve other than create a huge Chillul Hashem?"

    RaP: Wait! According to this illogical postulation, it is "not" a Chillul Hashem to rape someone?! It is "not" a Chillul Hashem to sexually torment an innocent or even a troubled youngster that can be taken advantage of?! It is "not" a Chilll Hashem to fool your rebbe and community by faking it that you're a big "tzadik" when in reality you are the biggest menuval and oisvurf and rasha on the planet when you think Hashem does not see what you are doing to your victims behind a door with three locks on it?!

    But somehow, according to this shtus and total idiotic excuse for "argument" it is a somehow a Chillul Hashem if you have tried all the avenues, your rabbis, rebbes and community will not or do not believe what you are going through and will not and cannot do anything about it, and will not and cannot stop the abuse, that even after you report your case to the police, and when you see a corrupt legal system not acting on it or even ignoring what you are going through as you are still being subjected to abuse and who knows what else, that somehow of other, if a newspaper or TV reporter finds out about your case and helps to put pressure on the police and on the corrupt prosecutors and the lackadaisical courts to finally DO SOMETHING to stop the abuser, stop the abuse you are suffering ad make sure that that it is publicized as a precaution to help others we are being told here that that is also a "Chillul Hashem"?

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  8. Recipients and PublicityDecember 14, 2012 at 3:41 PM

    RaP: You know, in Hilchos Loshen Hora by the Chofetz Chaim and by other poskim it is stated that it not only muttar but it is required and it is a mitzva to be mefarsem and publicize the harmful immorality of a person who is hurting many victims, and has refused to stop, in order to stop it from happening. Rav Moshe Shternbuch ruled and it was published on this blog that it was a MITZVA to publicize the wrongdoing and perversions of the notorious ex-rabbi Leib Tropper. Not everyone works with posting "pashkvilim" on the walls of buildings in Williamsburg and Meah Shearim (by the way in New York City it is ILLEGAL and a punishable offense to post unauthorized notices on lamp posts and wallls -- often you see the sign "Post No Bills" but of course Charedi groups think that this law does not apply to them) at any rate, at the end of the day, you cannot say to tired, exhausted, humiliated, abused, raped, menaced and tortured people, hey you guys, stay away from the media, cause I say it is "mesira". When that is utter trash. It is like saying to a starving person who finds some food on the street, don't eat that before you find out if it has a "hechsher" from fat and spolied people living in fat and spoiled communities in utter luxury awash in dough who do not know and do not believe and will not stop the suffering of their fellow Jews, often their own kith and kin that, like Pharaoh in Egypt, they CHOOSE to ignore. So sure be a Sodomite and make out of righteousness evil and turn evil into a perverted "mitzva -- shelo haya velo nivra"!

    So don't blame people who are hurting from "shraying gevalt" and today that is done online in blogs, the Internet and through the media. It's like asking people not to speak when there is fire burning in their house and telling them not to call the "fire leshers" firemen because the firemen are all goyim and may even be sonei Yisroel and may say and do some things that Jews don't like. Tough nougies, you have no choice, in a fire you call the fire-department, when a gangster breaks into your house you call the cops, and when a child molester molests you or your children you call the cops, get a lawyer (if you can afford it) and if they do nothing about the investigation, to save yourself and others it is PIKUACH NEFESH and a KIDDUSH HASHEM and a MITZVA DE'ORAYSA to CALL the press and let them know what's happening only then will you get results.

    "Is it alright to become partners with people like Vicki Polin to accomplish these ends."

    RaP: You are so foolish it is unbelievable. Or you are just being paid to come here, act like troll and seem like you are making a point by whoever is probably paying you when you are just wasting everyone's time. Your weird question can best be answered by a famous debate in the British Parliament just after Nazi Germany invaded Communist Russia in 1941 when the Prime Minister Winston Churchill declared that the British must support the Communist Soviet Union against the Nazis. When he was asked in parliament how he could justify this, after a lifetime of condemning the Communists and even supporting a war against them (when the Whites fought the Reds after the 1917 Revolution), Churchill made his famous declaration that "If Hitler were to invade Hell, I would support the Devil!"

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    1. What are you talking about???When did I ever say it was mesirah to call the cops on people like rapists or violent people.I never made a statement like this.Again that somebody is paying.Fine ,tell me who so I can collect my salary.Vicky Polin lies about Jewish People killing and eating babies.Why would this NOT be a shayla?Daas Torah said I was appropriate in asking my questions.BTW.The spaces are caused by my computer.

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    2. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 2:05 PM

      "NOSHIE63 says...Vicky Polin lies about Jewish People killing and eating babies.Why would this NOT be a shayla?"

      You really want to know why? Because FIRST, you should ask the same Satmars and Neturei Karta who talk to any goyisha reporter (gay, straight or whatever) who are not ashamed to stoke up the media against other Jews, they talk to hostile Jew-hating reporters, and dress their kids in "concentration camp" garb and chains in front of any TV news cameras to protest against their perceived "enemies" the so-called "tziyonim" and "kofrim" towards which they show complete sinas Yisroel with a shred of ahavas Yisroel

      Why don't you ask the members of Neurei Karta who get all their big funding from Satmar, or those Satmars in America who are also members of the Neturei Karta, if it is right to kiss and hug Arafat and Ahmadenijad and praise those reshoim and mass murderers. Even if it means denying the Holocaust? Who gives them a "heter" to do that? What is the source in Shulchan Oruch or the Torah for that? Which gedolim have ever done such things? With that you don't have a problem, you think it is ok for Chasidic and Charedi people with long peyos to talk to goyisha newspaper reporters in front of the UN when they make demonstrations and libel and curse millions of Jews in Israel. They post all sorts of videos spewing their filthy hate on YouTube, they go talk to colleges about the evils of Zionism, have you ever stopped to ask them who gives them the "heter" to do that, to cause sinas Yisroel by praising antisemites like Arafat and his PLO, Hamas and the reshoim in Iran?

      First clean up your act. Stop being a hypocrite, and then maybe you can be believed that your concerns have any merit.

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    3. Neturei Karta does indeed do this.It is evil.What does that have to do with my concerns of maintaining the dignity of Klall Yisrael by not heaping scandal on a community of people who are keeping mitzvos?Do two wrongs make a right?Just the opposite,if you see it is inappropriate in one case can't you see why some people would think it is inappropriate in the other.What makes you think everybody who is interested in keeping a good name for their community likes the Webermans of this world.Don't you think there a good people as well in Williamsburg.(I think I would have been mislead as well had I lived there.) Are you not obligated to dan them lekaf zchus.If not why not?Maybe you are the one who otta get a scotch.In fact..make it a double!

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  9. Dr. Eidensohn, WADR, this kind of shayloh requires daas Torah. In prior posts, you very impressively quote numerous poskim to the effect that when someone is harming someone, especially (although not exclusively) children, it is incumbent to report the person to the authorities. Conspicuous by its absence in this post is the citation to a single poseik or gadol. Your sevaras are interesting, but ultimately mean little.

    As I previously pointed out, one of the original articles contained a direct attack on the Torah: it blamed the laws of Niddah and issurim off zenus and kirvah for what it claimed was excess abuse in the Orthodox community. In another post here, someone claimed that one of the individuals involved worked with a woman who goes around claiming that Orthodox children drink blood -- the classic anti-semitic blood libel, still widely believed in many parts of the world (esp. the Arab world).

    It is one thing to agitate for dealing with abuse better and not covering up. On that you are on solid ground. It is quite another to work with (and strengthen) those whose clear goal is to destroy the Torah and indeed to endanger Jews.

    Suppose in working with the blood libeler, you then increase danger to Jews in some part of the world where that is believed. (There are still Jews left in places like Iran, Syria and other Moslem countries, and even in Europe there are places where they are today endangered, like Malmo, Sweden.) Maybe if a Jew were killed there as a result of a blood libel, rachmana litzlan, some of their blood might be on the hands of someone who worked with and raised the credibility of a blood libeler here in the U.S.?

    Your citation to R. Moshe's teshuva about the intermarried doctor I find far afield from this discussion.

    So please provide some sources or daas Torah from gedolei Yisroel. You need very broad shoulders to decide this one, and so far I see none cited here.

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    1. I agree with what you are saying in principle. The problem is what to do in the real world. Where are those broad shoulders? There are two aspects of asking Daas Torah. 1) someone with the full understanding of halacha and the facts to weigh and prioritize a number of conflicting factors 2) someone who is widely respected and thus if you follow his psak you are protected from attack.

      1) I find that gedolim take a very conservative i.e., timid position when they are asked to decide these issues 2) they are not willing to provide protection. A clear example is the Kolko case in Lakewood where gedolim were consulted and yet the father of the victim was driven out of Lakewood after he went to the police. or the ban of the Making of a Godol even though Rav Eliashiv had been consulted and agreed not to ban the sefer prior to giving the author a chance to defend or modify the book. There is also the case of Rabbi Yosef Reinman who was encouraged by gedolim to write a book of discussions he had with a Reform rabbi and then was left dangling after the was condemned by the Moetzes Gedolei Torah. there is also the psak of a very well know posek who said in all cases of child abuse go right to the police but not in cases of wife abuse - but don't publicize that he said this. He said this in front of an audience of psychologists. There are a number of other cases in recent years where daas Torah was given in complex issues but as soon as the kanoim attacked they deny they ever said anything. One gadol gave me an answer to such a complex question but said not to tell anyone he said it because he was concerned how he would be judged by the kanoim.

      The other issue is the well know fact that there is no one Daas Torah. You will get a whole range of answers to the same question depending on who is asked.

      so you are right - a gadol should be asked these type of questions - but in general they are not available or not willing to publicly standby the psak or they take the most conservative position which is simply not helpful.

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    2. so you are right - a gadol should be asked these type of questions - but in general they are not available or not willing to publicly stand by the psak

      This is a truly depressing thought, although I suspect you are accurate. If anyone questions the concept of yeridas ha Doros, this statement certainly proves it.

      (Can one imagine, say, R. Moshe Feinstein or the Chazon Ish taking such a position?)

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    3. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 2:22 PM

      "Tal Benschar said...It is quite another to work with (and strengthen) those whose clear goal is to destroy the Torah and indeed to endanger Jews."

      RaP: Indeed, and that is why it is reprehensible that the Neurei Karta and their financial backers in Satmar as well as the the many Satmars in America who not only sympathize with Neurie Karta but are one with it and join it and go on public demonstrations in from on the secular media and cause a Chillul HaShem when they shout public support for the PLO and Hamas and the Ayatollahs in Iran. These same Satmars wrap themselves in the FLAG of the PLO and even dance at wedding waving it, the same flag that flies when the PLO and Hamas mass murderers shoot rockets to kill untold numbers of Jews in Israel. The first rockets that came from Gaza in the recent war killed four frum people in Kiryat Malachi. The Arabs danced in the streets and the Neturei Karta and their Satmar supporters and members must take a blame for the shedding of this innocent Jewish blood. But you don't seem to have aproblem with this, only with Vicki Polin who never killed anyone. She claimed she witnessed things in the past. She is a very troubled person. But she has also done some good in her life. She is NOT like the PLO and HAMAS and Iran that kills Jews and calls for the destruction of Israel. She wants to save and warn about sexual abuse by rabbis who are predators. No one says she is a "tzadekes" she is not, but she is no worse than any victim of abuse who spouts all sorts of things, yet at the same time, wants to help others. The problem was with OPrah Winfrey who should have censored this from her show. Not everything that someone on a panel from the street says should be publicized on national TV. Polin should have been told to take up her "memories" with her shrink and not spout them on national TV.

      "Suppose in working with the blood libeler, you then increase danger to Jews in some part of the world where that is believed."

      RaP: Indeed, and that is why Neturei Karta and their Satmar backers and members are a clear menace to the entire Jewish people because they endanger every Jew on Earth with all the libel and filth they perform in front og TV cameras and by talking to hostile reporters from Arab lands and anti-Israel forums. When Neturei Karta libel the entire Jewish people in public endangering the lives of all Jews by shaking hands and kissing and agreeing with the would-be destroyers of the Jewish people, like Arafat, the PLO, Hamas, Ahmadinejad and and the Islamic rulers of Iran, they are joining hands with literal modern-day Nazis are therefore not just traitors to the Jewish people but are also worthy of being executed for being mosrim. yet because Satmar and Neturei Karta live in the the democracies of the USA, Western Europe AND Israel, they run around oblivious of how ridiculous and moronic they are.

      Delete
    4. "But you don't seem to have aproblem with this, only with Vicki Polin who never killed anyone."

      I don't know what makes you say I have no problem with NK, which was not up for discussion. I consider their cooperation with Sonei Yisroel to be reprehensible, and have said so. (Notice that I post under my name, whereas you do not. Dr. Eidensohn, doesn't that violate your rules?)

      It is my impression that most Satmar completely reject the NK antics (although I am no expert on Satmar), and certainly the vast, vast majority of the Charedi world finds them reprehensible.

      You have made an analogy between Hamas/PLO/Iranian Mullahs and the NK who work with them and give them credibility, with Sonei Torah and Orthodox Jews who work with them and give them credibility. An apt analogy, although why you think this helps your cause is beyond me.

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    5. (Notice that I post under my name, whereas you do not. Dr. Eidensohn, doesn't that violate your rules?)

      no. I do not require that a person comment with his name but only that it not be "anonymous" that is just to prevent confusion

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    6. Tal Benschar: "(Notice that I post under my name, whereas you do not. Dr. Eidensohn, doesn't that violate your rules?)"

      I think it would help for you to spell out your premises about anonymity.

      Complete anonymity can become a mess when the give-and-take becomes highly personal, accusatory, insinuative, etc.

      On the other side, this blog's comment policy seems to try to accommodate:

      (1) abuse victims with many different degrees of traumatization, many of whom are traumatized by their communities

      (2) people who legitimately fear significant retribution for "breaking ranks" from their communities

      (3) parents who wish to shield their young children from internet-mediated "feedback"

      (4) etc.

      By denigrating a commenter's anonymity you might be treating him unjustly. (I have no facts about RaP, in particular.)

      Delete
    7. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 6:08 PM

      "Tal Benschar said...I don't know what makes you say I have no problem with NK, which was not up for discussion. I consider their cooperation with Sonei Yisroel to be reprehensible, and have said so."

      RaP: it should be obvious that I was pointing out a selective method here of when it suits someone they talk about Vicki Polin, as a bad person to associate with, while other similar blatant examples are forgotten. Thus, for example, every frum Jew knows and is taught that the Roman Catholic Church is the enemy of the Jewish people. It's even in the machzor, of how the Unesanei Tokef tefila came about, and how the Church took in so many Jewish kids during the Holocaust, baptized them and refused to release them afterwards, not to mention the Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, the Holocaust of that time. Yet today, in America, the holiest of holy Agudas Yisroel, and even other Orthodox and Charedi organzations, and its gedolim not only allow but actively work with the Catholic Church on points of common concerns, such as getting funding for yeshivas and church schools and other issues that relate to Church-Sate matters. Similarly, when it comes to fighting child abuse and bringing this subject to the forefront, it just so happens to be that Vicki Polic was a pioneer in this field with her Jewish Awareness Center. Now Vicki Polin has made wild claims. She has had a very weird life. Psychologists talk of "repressed memories" some of which may not be literally true but may be representations of of other stuff. Also, who says, that what she says is false. Maybe she did witness crazy stuff? There are devil worshipers with satanic rituals. Vicki Polin was not charged for any crimes, and she admits that she has had treatments for her obviously very deep-seated psychological problems. But by the same token, she has had the guts to keep a record and speak out against rabbis who have been accused of sexual abuse. Can you point to any case where she has been wrong, besides jumping up and down about her alleged "devil worship"?

      "(Notice that I post under my name, whereas you do not. Dr. Eidensohn, doesn't that violate your rules?)

      RaP: "Tal Benschar" is your true name? Mazel Tov, I assume this is you: "Tal S. Benschar", if so you are a person of many great achievements, from your website "Tal holds a Juris Doctor from Columbia University, 1996, where he was twice named a Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar (1995, 1996). Tal holds a Bachelor of Arts from Yeshiva University, magna cum laude, 1989. He also received rabbinical ordination from the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, 1993." Congrats! Truly impressive.

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    8. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 6:09 PM

      This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    9. RAP, it is clear that on this matter you are a meshuga le davar echad., and given to flights of fancy. Nothing is gained by debating you at this point.

      And while I am a lawyer, I only once (many years ago) represented someone accused of child abuse, and he was not even Jewish. Although I did see there that the criminal justice system leaves a lot to be desired. The person I represented (on appeal) had been convicted on the testimony of two retarded boys whose COMBINED IQ was less than 100. And it was cleared that they had been coached by well-meaning relatives.

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    10. Recipients and PublicityDecember 17, 2012 at 2:17 PM

      "Tal Benschar said...RAP, it is clear that on this matter you are a meshuga le davar echad., and given to flights of fancy."

      RaP: Aw shucks don't limit me to just "davar echad" I am more versatile and eclectic in my interests than that! And to call me "meshuga..." well that is always the tactic of accusation when you can't find the right answers and just want to defame the mental status of your opposing debater.

      "Nothing is gained by debating you at this point."

      RaP: Why? Please do explain! I have the time to listen and always willing to learn! Honest!

      "And while I am a lawyer,"

      RaP: Yeeeees, (drum-roll in background...)

      "I only once (many years ago) represented someone accused of child abuse, and he was not even Jewish. Although I did see there that the criminal justice system leaves a lot to be desired. The person I represented (on appeal) had been convicted on the testimony of two retarded boys whose COMBINED IQ was less than 100. And it was cleared that they had been coached by well-meaning relatives."

      RaP: And this my friend is the most shocking admission and allegation on your part, because why else would you want to come into this discussion unless it was to defame the young girl who brought down the big Weberman Goliath? Of course no legal system is perfect. On your resume it says you learned in YU and even have semicha. You know that "eidim" (witnesses) sometimes can and do lie! They are made to take oaths. They face consequences, fines of all sorts. There is the unique case of tit for tat when "eidim zomemim" (conspiring witnesses) come up with a scheme to frame an innocent person and they get the punishment that would have resulted had the innocent party been convicted on their contrived false "evidence". The Torah admonishes judges and calls for impartiality and for not taking bribes etc etc etc, yet still and all, the Torah does NOT say just because even the Torah's own vision of a legal system and its philosophy of jurisprudence could be corrupted that somehow that should lead to an utterly absurd "conclusion" "not" to have a legal system at all, gosh even gentiles are admonished to create "dinim" with a legal system for their societies no matter how imperfect -- otherwise all you will have is the law of the jungle and barbarism.

      So while we may be sorry that you lost your case, just as Weberman lost his, and by the way he had the full force of the Satmar community behind him, one Satmar Rebbe (Aron Teitelbaum) who belittled the victim in public, they raised millions for his legal defense and they are still going to appeal, they prayed and preyed for him, nevertheless Weberman lost big time, and his victim a scrawny teen kid with emotional and even physical scars galore to show for it won on the merits of her argument and her stated case with her TESTIMONY - EIDUS in secular court. She was NOT retarded. She is married. She is trying to regain her self-respect and human dignity. She has a very lapsed chasid husband who is batting for her all the time. Can you imagine if YOUR teen bride came from such a background, could you live with it? Would you sit back and not try to get justice for her?

      Yet, you have no shame and come here and slander weak people who do not have the mental capacity to counter you. Of course they were coached, everyone who goes on the stand is coached by their lawyers. Isn't that part of your job? To guide and coach your clients to always win? It's incredible that out of the mouth of a lawyer such things could come out. Go hang you head in shame.

      Nuff said for now!

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    11. RaP, You baffle me. Though I disagree with Rabbi Benschar on a number of important points, I have not in the least formed an impression that his comments insinuate "slander" against the Weberman plaintiff.

      I think we agree in many respects about the discussion of Ms. Polin, but I think Rabbi Benschar is using her case as vehicle to raise respectable questions, of a type which has always concerned Orthodox rabbis.

      You wrote earlier: "[Some {?} abuse victims] come from a dark netherworld of abused and haunted people. Sometimes for them ghosts are "reality" while reality is "ghost" bordering on mental conditions, psychoses and hallucinations. People take drugs, they suffer from brain damage ..."

      You similarly wrote: "... slander weak people who do not have the mental capacity to counter you."

      Flinging stereotypes such as these you may, for all I know, stand with some of the abused, but you certainly don't stand with me.

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    12. The tenor of your comments are so snide and snarky not to mention pompous.I was appalled to read your comments regarding Satmar as being a menace to every Jew on the planet.This is bigotry.The Chofetz Chaim writes that anybody who attacks an entire segment of Klall Yisroel has multiplied the Loshon Harah to a heinous level because you are saying loshon harah about so many more people.

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    13. My comments were directed @RAP not the one's above me.

      Delete
    14. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 11:47 AM

      "NOSHIE63 said...The tenor of your comments are so snide and snarky not to mention pompous."

      RaP: Vus iz "snarky"? Is it a type of "lokshen keegel"?

      "I was appalled to read your comments regarding Satmar as being a menace to every Jew on the planet."

      RaP: If I recall I was condemning the aspect of Neturei Karta, and any and all support and membership they may have from Satmar, who it seems sympathize with the views of the Neturei Karta crazies, when they go and hug and kiss butchers and Jew-killers like Arafat and the PLO, and run to praise Hamas, make demonstrations (that they would never allow if they were the bosses) and hoist the flag of the PLO all the time, even sometimes at their own children's weddings, dress their kids in concentration garb in front of the goyisha media they despise as if the Tziyoinim were "Nazis" when the Arabs would shecht every Jew if they could, and join with the evil Ahmadenijad who calls for the eradication of Israel and for the deportation of all its Jews back to Europe. I don't think the Choftez Chaim would approve of the antics of such reshoim gemurim who would rejoice over the spilling of Jewish blood and incite for it.

      Delete
    15. But Neturei Karta is no longer Satmar.When Rabbi Weiss came back from Iran they wanted to get him.I doubt the Chofetz Chaim in two million years would approve of this cult group.Where is there any argument that Neturei Karta is not doing the right thing?But on the other hand please note that the United States and Israel have no diplomatic relations with Iran.So when the Yidden there need stuff they have to turn to the NK.Same goes for Jewish communities throughout the Arab world.Life is not black and white.It is sometimes gray.

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    16. The Arabs would indeed shect every Jew if they could.I don't understand the people who say the opposite.

      Delete
    17. @RAP.Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum was not the first Satmer rebbe.Where does it say in Al HaGeulah Veal Hatmurah that you can go and sit down with David Duke and Hitler wannabe, Ahmadinejad?Satmar and Neturei Karta do not fit hand in glove.NK say they are followers of Rabbi Yoelish but Satmar says they hate them.

      Delete
  10. Just to be clear, here is something I found on the internet:

    Vicki Polin, is the founder of 'The Awareness Centre', a group who supports victims of sexual & ritual abuse.

    Broadcasted on the May 1, 1989, she appeared under the pseudonym of 'Rachel', on an edition of the Oprah Winfrey Show in which she stated:

    "There would be rituals in which babies would be sacraficed... There were people who would grab babies in our family."

    "My family has an extensive family tree and they keep track of who has been involved and who hasn't been involved and it goes back like to the 17th century."

    "When I was very young I was forced to participate in that I was forced to sacrifice an infant."

    "There are other Jewish families across the country, it's not just my own family."

    "Not all Jewish people sacrifice children."

    Footage of the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYm5YtaC…


    So your position that it is proper for a ben Torah to work with this person to combat abuse and coverups of abuse?

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Reread what I wrote. If she were the only one available to publicize the problem and she would bring about an improvement in the situation - then yes. However if there are other alternatives - which there are - the answer is clearly no.

      One of the reasons I have this blog is because I don't see any other blog - news source - that shows an understanding of halacha and is concerned to present the views of gedolei Torah on this subject matter.

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    2. "However if there are other alternatives - which there are - the answer is clearly no."

      Well, at least you have just condemned anyone who mikan ulehaba works together with any journalist or media which are either anti-semitic or have an anti-Torah agenda, even if they have proper motives to combat child abuse.
      (That does NOT include posting on this blog, nor going to the police or other civil authorities, but it would definitely include certain blogs I can name who, in addition to whatever they have done about abuse, also clearly have an anti-Torah agenda.)

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    3. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 2:24 PM

      "Tal Benschar said...Well, at least you have just condemned anyone who mikan ulehaba works together with any journalist or media which are either anti-semitic or have an anti-Torah agenda, even if they have proper motives to combat child abuse."

      Dream on. What do you want to achieve exactly?

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    4. "Dream on" -- yes, I say ve lamalshinim al tehi tikvah every day. Blood libelers certainly fit into that.

      "What do you want to achieve exactly?" -- full upholding of the Torah. That certainly includes protecting innocent children from abuse. It does not include, for example, blaming child abuse on the laws of Niddah and the issur of kirvah, as certain journalists did.

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    5. Tal.I am with you all the way.You see what I see.

      Delete
  11. Recipients and PublicityDecember 14, 2012 at 4:25 PM

    RaP: And we have a similar lose-lose situation here, while there are no win-win situations here, it is a mud pile and if you are in the mud you will get dirty, because that is the way you are painting it as if there is no way out and "therefore" everyone must come down on the side of your ridiculous argument that postulates that if "Vicky Polin is the worst of the worst, and the free Press is also the worst of the worst, so that if anyone in any way even mentions or connects with either Vicki Polin or the free Press, they are somehow totally out of it, 100% wrong evil or who knows what else and they are "mosrim" and that deserve to have acid thrown in their faces and excommunicated and that's that, end of discussion" -- well guess what that is just dumb, because in a situation where the choices are only bad ones, you very conveniently and obviously on purpose forget to mention the REAL problems that do NOT start with Vicki Polin or with the free Press, that what if there is a REAL situation like exists in frum communities, where ABUSED and VICTIMIZED weak people, children, women, troubled youth and the powerless in society complain that they are being sexually abused and exploited, that pressure is being put on them to drop their complaints, that powerful rebbes and balebatim are threatening them and forcing them to leave schools and suffer in life? To you this is not serious, but mentioning Vicki Polin is??

    First of all, who has decided that the victims are "wrong" and that the alleged abusers are "right" who gives the right to the ones who are exploiting the weak and vulnerable to make themselves into fake "tzadikim" when they are "menuvalim birshus haTorah" they are using Torah as fake shields to hide their crimes against humanity. That, according to "Mr. NOSHIE63" is "not" a problem, but just mentioning the name of the troubled Vicki Polin and making a statement to the press that after you have pressed charges with soundbites that "yes, I was raped" or "true, I was sexually molested" or "I am happy that the person who abused me is going to jail" or "I thank God that the guilty have been punished" and not the other way around to think that you are "happy" that the guilty are free to go on doing their evil all over again in FRUM society yet, since we are talkig about people who should be living according to the higher moral and ethical codes of the Torah.

    It just shows how crooked and how far from the true Torah derech people like MR NOSHIE63 have become. Very sad.

    "Basically do the "ends justify the means"."

    RaP: In, this situation the answer is yes, because we are not concerned with Vicki Polin's life. We are concerned with the abused people in front of us, and the alleged abusers who are claiming "lehadam" that they are the "innocent" ones and that their accusers are "guilty" of..."mesirah" which is pure hokum.

    "To me they obviously don't but I am no posek ."

    RaP: You are not only not a "posek", you even lack basic human feelings and you spout off like a brainwashed idiot.

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    1. RAP-You appear to be an angry person.There are people who were weak and suffered and are angry.But we have to know when there is a shaila and then ask it.The stakes are to high too say everything is mutar especially when it comes to mesirah .I will tell you a story that happened to me.When I was a teenager I participated in a demonstration against J for J.At the end I walked home and heard a pop.I didn't know what it was.A few days later the police arrested me for puncturing a tire.I found out that a boy I knew did this.I wanted him to turn himself in and admit what he had done to exonerate me.I asked the posek.Rav Scwab(Z"L) (KAJ)said I could only tell the police it wasn't me but I could not tell them who it was because it was mesirah .Great.Now this bum who did this not only did not confess but would not help me with legal expenses for what he did!!!I wanted to put my fist through a wall but the din is the din!I accepted it.I took a plea and got a year on probation but I would not maser this bum.I accepted this.When people have a terrible injustice committed against them they want revenge.They are blinded by anger.Everything is mutar."Kol Hakois kol menei gehenom sholtim ...Because in anger you can do every avira .The anger is justified and according to Daas Torah mesirah in this case is permitted.But contention is that in every situation the din must be followed.Call me an idiot.I don't care because I know I am right.First one must recognize a situation where there is a shaila then you must ask it.

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    2. Your concern for "human feelings" does not give you the right to jail everybody you suspect or not ask if it is okay to work with Vicki Polin.I have already asked DaasTorah if these people who hurt children can be "clipped" and their bodies thrown on Lee Ave.Where do you get off saying I have no empathy?Why would I make such a suggestion.Not everybody is guilty but you don't seem to care about that.If anybody wants to bring up this uncomfortable fact they are labeled and libeled with the term "enablers".Even if the statistic which was given is 90% of accusations are true that still leaves 10%.In your rage you don't seem to care about innocent people.Prosecute guilty people.But an investigation must be made not only to convict but also to acquit.If you have bad manners and call people names it is on you.That is in addition to your shrill dishonest accusations that somebody is paying me to post.

      Delete
    3. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 12:14 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...Your concern for "human feelings" does not give you the right to jail everybody you suspect or not ask if it is okay to work with Vicki Polin."

      RaP: Where do I talk about "human feelings"? Where does it seem like I think that I "have the right to jail everybody" or anybody? What are you talking about? You are irrational.

      "I have already asked DaasTorah if these people who hurt children can be "clipped" and their bodies thrown on Lee Ave."

      RaP: You mean you have a "heter" to murder people as if it was a pizza order from some Mafia that does not work with the regular laws of the USA or of humanity -- you want to violate other people's human and civil rights because they speak with newspaper reporters? You are evil and dangerous if you claim "DaasTorah" yet to rub out ANYONE bizman hazeh? Can you name the rabbis and cite in writing any orders or "hechsherim" you got to "clip" anyone? And exactly what does "clipping" mean to have "bodies thrown on Lee Ave"? You are a menace to society and very troubled if this is your twisted "thinking."

      "Where do you get off saying I have no empathy?Why would I make such a suggestion."

      RaP: You just said you have "DaasTorah" to "clip" (i.e. murder) people and dump their bodies on Lee Ave didn't you? Do you even remember what you write two sentences ago? You are off the wall big time.

      "Not everybody is guilty but you don't seem to care about that."

      RaP: Where do you see that? You are making things up. Where do I say that "everybody is guilty"? Just how crazy is such a claim? Just how nuts are you?

      "If anybody wants to bring up this uncomfortable fact they are labeled and libeled with the term "enablers"."

      RaP: What are you getting at exactly? Yes, if rabbis and balebatim support Weberman and they hold fundraisers for him, they are his enablers (what else are they?) and if Weberman's wife can see no wrong in him she is his biggest enabler, or worse, they are all partners in a big crime. What is not clear about that? This does not mean that there are genuinely innocent people. Of course there are and they have their rights, where did I say they don't? You are a liar on top of everything else.

      "Even if the statistic which was given is 90% of accusations are true that still leaves 10%."

      RaP: Ok so? Are you saying that all criminals are "innocent"? You obviously don't know American law, that you are innocent until PROVEN guilty and in Weberman's case he was innocent until he was proven guilty. That's why there was a trial and even now he will get a chance to appeal. What does that have to do with innocent people or those who are falsely accused? Nothing. Your mind is very twisted.

      "In your rage you don't seem to care about innocent people."

      RaP: Baloney! What rage and who are the "innocent people" here Weberman? Or who? Pray tell.

      "Prosecute guilty people."

      RaP: Ok, I agree but so what? It's obvious. I am not a "prosecutor"! I am just a simple blogger who cares about some issues and tries to use logic and reason and facts to make a point. Do not exaggerate.

      "But an investigation must be made not only to convict but also to acquit."

      RaP: Who EXACTLY do you want to acquit??? You sound like the lawyer for OJ Simpson now (or for Weberman maybe because, as usual, you are speaking from both sides of your mouth), a rotten lawyer who is a big liar.

      "If you have bad manners and call people names it is on you."

      RaP: Tut! But you can lie and threaten murder! Grow up won't you! Run to Mommy now, she will give you a lolly.

      "That is in addition to your shrill dishonest accusations that somebody is paying me to post."

      RaP: Oh yeah? I honestly don't know why I bother, you are sickening.

      Delete
  12. Recipients and PublicityDecember 14, 2012 at 4:27 PM

    "I have learned so much from what you post and the answers to questions I have posed .The blog is excellent ."

    RaP: It is forbidden to flatter, it is form of falsehood and sheker gamur.

    "We see that what is reported is sometimes false as the twitter story was. So giving information to unreliable sources doesn't seem like a good idea.Thank You."

    RaP: Thank you for not making sense and proving that you are illogical and that you think that everyone in the world is stupid and that you are the only "clever" one! Is everything that is published in every Charedi paper and magazine true? is there 1% error sometimes? 5% errors? 10% errors? No one knows. Similarly no one says that what is published in RELIABLE SOURCES such as secular newspapers and magazines is always true. They may be 10% wrong, 25% wrong and even 50% wrong. That is just the way it works. However that DOES NOT mean to say that such powerful media like the New York Times and other such print and journalism source do not have their uses. In the democratic society we live in the FREE PRESS are regarded as the WATCHDOGS OF DEMOCRACY. They keep the government on its toes, and they do expose wrongdoing and corruption so that society as whole benefits.

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    1. How very offensive. Daas Torah is the ONLY one to publish guides on how to handle the evolving issues that our communities are facing through the prism of halacha.In my circles he is very respected.There is a great deal of confusion regarding mesirah.I have learned from the blog and certain shaylas that I asked.Chanifa is not what I do.It would be going up to a rasha and telling him that he is good.Sheker Gamur?If this isn't an excellent blog why are you posting here?

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    2. RaP you are being unfair here. The questions Noshie63 are valid ones. You are taking them as attacks rather than questions. RaP I agree with the overall answer you are providing but please realise you are articulating because of Noshie63 questions. Noshie63 I think if you worded your questions to be clearly questions than assertions - RaP would have responded differently. I don't think we disagreeing on substance but on style.

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    3. Question-If the rate of recidivism on those who abuse boys in the worst way is very high should we not consider the person a rodef?Could the body of a dead rodef in the middle of Lee Ave would be a Kiddush Hashem.Let Mary Murphy do a story on that!It would show that Jews respect and value their children to this degree.The victim would get revenge.How many victims turn to suicide (Rachmana L"Tzlan)?We avoid a shanda .No goyshe courts.But RAP would never approve of these ideas because you would blow their entire game which is to make a "victim status" the center of their lives.No attention .No more guest spots on "THE VIEW".No more knocking erleich people .All the fun goes out if these wicked activities.When I saw the shreklechkeit in Williamsburg I said Baruch Hashem it did not happen in our community.My neighborhood is a center of Torah and Chessed.The idea that a few bad apples would tarnish the great work that the good people do it would be terrible.The people who backed Weberman were misguided but I think they were trying to do the right thing because they had in error thought he was innocent.I think they will change how they approach these matters.And RAP what is all this drool about the beauty of the press.CNN bashes Israel because they hate Jews.Their intention is not to help poor Jewish victims but to point an accusing finger at the Jewish People.(Ironically ,there was a group called CNN WATCH to counter anti-Israel bias.It was founded by your hero,Vicki Polin.)The press is in business to "sell" news.WATCHDOGS OF DEMOCRACY???They turn a blind eye to the corruption if it does not suit its agenda.There are few stories about illegal aliens of whom there are about 40 million in the United States.This business about the press is complete nonsense.Now that RAP has accused me of being a paid hack can I at least know who it is that is paying me.I would like to collect my check.

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    4. Aside from the fact it is against the law to kill people - the chilul hashem of even contemplating it is much more than contacting the police. Lynching a suspected molester or even a definitely would not be viewed as a kidush haShem! In the period of the Rishonim criminals were either turned over to the secular authorities for execution or specific permission was requested.

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    5. Question-If you know for a fact that somebody is a rodef,for example the victim himself ,and you would know (in theory) he will do it again (as so many of the victims have testified to-the reason they want to have somebody jailed is to stop them from hurting another person)it seems to me to be a Kiddush Hashem. Killing a moser for example is a mitzva yet it is a violation of the dina demalchusa yet it is written Vechol Hamakdim zocheh.It doesn't say it would be a Chillul Hashem.Two seperate cases I understand.But the commonality in this hypothetical case is killing.So in one halacha of mesirah it is a mitzva and no chillul Hashem but in the other it is a chilul Hashem?A dead body is a dead body.@Daas Torah is redifa not something one must kill over?This is in fact redifa if they go after boys.Also Daas Torah writes that in the period of the Rishonim they handed them over to secular courts.Rabbi Meir of Ruttenberg killed a guy trying to maser him.He was a rishon and that was a violation of dina demalchusa but there was no Chillul Hashem? Again,I am confused.

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    6. And RAP while you lecture me about democracy let me tell you what it is like under Communism.The police girl shows you a picture of the color blue and tells you it is orange.Then she will ask you "Noshie what color is it"?You have to say orange.The purpose of the exercise is to show that they determine what reality is regardless of reality.Or the police girl starts telling you that black people are stupid in the hope that you join in since they record everything and will blackmail you if you go to America.And why do you think they use a police girl.These are ladies in their early 20s.Because if you are normal they will use your taivos against you.Pretty soon you get the message that you are powerless.The police point their pinky to show you what to do which I believe is another show of power and control.There is no hope other than escape or if they let you leave.Nobody in America my age loves it more than me.We can call each other idiots on a blog.There you need special permission to have internet.And forget English.You have to speak their language.That is why I want to be vigilant about liberty.If people can be convicted on a "he said she said" basis we will devolve into them.

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    7. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 2:08 PM

      "NOSHIE said... Killing a moser for example is a mitzva yet it is a violation of the dina demalchusa yet it is written Vechol Hamakdim zocheh.It doesn't say it would be a Chillul Hashem.

      RaP: There you go again and say it over and over again. You are taking it on yourself to "pasken" to murder someone "bazman hazeh"! You know, the Torah has "arba misos bais din" and the Chazal explicitly say that even though there is no Sanhedrin to carry them out, yet Hashem will find various ways to "kill" the guilty parties in "natural" or "unnatural" ways but they do NOT say that anyone for the last 2000 years accused of sins worthy of capital punishments should be chas vesholom executed by a bais din or by anyone.

      "But the commonality in this hypothetical case is killing.So in one halacha of mesirah it is a mitzva and no chillul Hashem but in the other it is a chilul Hashem?A dead body is a dead body.@Daas Torah is redifa not something one must kill over?This is in fact redifa if they go after boys.Also Daas Torah writes that in the period of the Rishonim they handed them over to secular courts.Rabbi Meir of Ruttenberg killed a guy trying to maser him.He was a rishon and that was a violation of dina demalchusa but there was no Chillul Hashem? Again,I am confused."

      RaP: That was then and this is now! So indeed you are very confused because no rov TODAY says to go and kill anyone. Most civilized countries have banned the death penalty for very good reasons even though there are good arguments for capital punishment it is still a problem. And certainly not today's rabbis, they do not have any right or power to condemn ANYONE to death. So knock it off will you, you are sounding obsessed about killing people, and it should scare you! But then again, are you normal enough to be scared by that?

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    8. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 2:19 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...And RAP while you lecture me about democracy let me tell you what it is like under Communism."

      RaP: Maybe that is your problem, you have a totalitarian Soviet-ear mind-set still that you can't shake off.

      "The police girl shows you a picture of the color blue and tells you it is orange.Then she will ask you "Noshie what color is it"?You have to say orange.The purpose of the exercise is to show that they determine what reality is regardless of reality.Or the police girl starts telling you that black people are stupid in the hope that you join in since they record everything and will blackmail you if you go to America.And why do you think they use a police girl.These are ladies in their early 20s.Because if you are normal they will use your taivos against you.Pretty soon you get the message that you are powerless.The police point their pinky to show you what to do which I believe is another show of power and control.There is no hope other than escape or if they let you leave."

      RaP: OK so what has that got to do with America? Feel free to think for yourself and express yourself freely and practice your religion freely. The USSR has collapsed, even they love freedom now, even though Putin tries to stop it, but he can't, maybe it's what you are trying to do as well. Sow chaos and confusion on this blog. Fake it that you know nothing and then turn around and pasken the most serious shaylos as if you were the gadol hador. What fakery!

      "Nobody in America my age loves it more than me.We can call each other idiots on a blog."

      RaP: Speak for yourself! You are here more than just about a blog, admit it.

      "There you need special permission to have internet.And forget English.You have to speak their language.That is why I want to be vigilant about liberty."

      RaP: Being a vigilante about liberty does not give you the right to kill people on sight, even if you are hallucinating that some rabbi has given you a "heter" to wipe out the "mosrim" of your delusions, and for not agreeing with you or for giving interviews with reporters.

      "If people can be convicted on a "he said she said" basis we will devolve into them."

      RaP: Like who? You see this is EXACTLY what the people on Weberman's side are saying and they are crying over it. That is why it is pretty obvious that even though you say the girl he abused should have a nice life, but you are more of a vigilante and outspoken about the main point that Weberman's supporters are using to fight for him.

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    9. Being that you are a very educated man I suggest you read a book called the Gulag Archepeligo by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.If you want the real deal it is there. Weberman is a wicked person.I never paskened nor am I qualified to pasken any shayla.I have seen source material about mesirah in various places.But I never saw a rav pasken on mesirah either.I think they are afraid of litigation maybe.I am amused by you fascination with my posts.BTW,Putin is not all he is cracked up to be.Look how much the Russians help Iran.The only people who can leave the USSR are Jews.Oh sure.Democracy .Goyim fake being Jews wind up in Eretz Yisroel and some are even Neo-Nazis there.And they have a lot of Russian Orthodox churches there.

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    10. Giving interviews is about Loshon Harah not mesirah.Killing people.Vei,Vei.I was asking Das Torah in theory about the reshaim who go after boys (rodfim) not the survivors who speak to reporters!!!You should understand that these wicked people have the highest rate of recitivism.I know you understand that.Dude,I am writing in your shpracte.What don't you understand.It is plain English.

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    11. Plus,DT said you could speak to reporters in order to prevent future cover ups.He is qualified,BTW.

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  13. What's the QuestionDecember 14, 2012 at 4:58 PM

    There are different questoins here, and they should be addressed separately.

    1. Is the crusade to rid our community of molesters and create a safer environment for our precious children allowed to utilize the media in its venture? Is such use of media considered chilul Hashem?

    2. Is refraining from doing anything to create a safer environment, (such as non-involvement in dealing with community leaders, promoting teaching of safety to children, educating the parents and school officials about the child care skills and limits, etc.) but limiting the activism to only pushing schmutzy stories to the media acceptable or is this chilul Hashem?

    Question #2 is quite different. Rational people should unanimously consider #2 flagrant chilul Hashem. That has been the approach of Polin and Rosenberg and their ilk. All the while, there are many, many rational people, including some of the activists, professionals, even rabbonim who seek to change the current environment. It is a dirty lie to say that no progress has been made, and it is a dirtier lie to credit those committed to chilul Hashem for amy of the positive movement. There's much more work to do, but these mechalelai Hashem need to be excluded from it, and certainly not credited.

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    1. You should read Rabbi Zwiebel's comment in Mishpacha that disagrees with your assertion. Even those sources which are focused exclusively on degradging and smearing the name of the Orthodox world have in fact produced some good. However there are clearly alternatives for publicizing these issues without utilizing the negative anti Orthodox activists.

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    2. I hear what this poster is saying and I agree with him.

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    3. What's the QuestionDecember 16, 2012 at 4:24 PM

      There are many negatives in history that produced some good. Selling Yosef resulted in his royalty and the preservation of Klal Yisroel. Galus Mitzrayim resulted in Yitziyas Mitzrayim. It was Divinely decreed that these growing pains needed to exist, and we are at least aware (if not learned) about some of these pieces of our history. But for a human to create the negative with the hope that positive will later be realized is irresponsible, and likely assur.

      I recognize the degree of awareness of this tragic problem has been enabled by blogs. I obviously read them, too, and sometimes I participate in the discussions. But the real work is far greater in scope and expertise. The activists, even if you accept that their media blitzes have had value, are no longer contributing to anything beyond chilul Hashem. None of them are developing safety programs, none of them operate outside the lens of publicity, and none of them can legitimately take credit for saving a single neshomo. If you wish the hindsight that awareness has been achieved by blogs, I grant that, though it does not give the heter retroactively. Yes, some bloggers may pat their bellies with pride. I am set on something truly effective that will protect my child, and no blog, no network, no newspaper or TV station will do that. There are ways to accomplish serious goals, none of which require an "es laasos" to compromise on Kiddush Hashem.

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  14. "Paid hack"?I could use the money.I was merely asking the rabbi for guidance .I am sorry but there is Halacha in this world and we need to follow it.Daas Torah will tell us what the guidelines are because he has researched this area completely and is very respected.Yes many of the victims are weak.But in the YU story I know the victim.In fact he is the only victim I know.He is frei and blames the guy who did this while discounting many musmachim who are related to him from YU.I won't defend YU.Let them do it.I hate the crybaby stuff.He could have handled this at least since he was 22.His dad could have called the cops at the time .If you want to talk Mondrowitz let'd do that since I knew that animal personally .These people are not a one time deal.They will do these crimes again and again.They are rodfim with all that entails.So lets stop glowing in the victimhood aura and turn to real action!Stop crying and start doing.Put up or shut up.

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  15. I don't care what the situation is.You always have to know what the din is.Just because you are angry does not give you a heter to do whatever you want.You have the agenda.The crybaby agenda .If somebody is going after a little boy what are you going to do?Wait until something happens to the kid,call Rabbi Rosenberg,the DA,NYPD,CNN?How about direct action?Oh no.That would ruin your Kleenex and violin scenario.The looking for sympathy game should end and the direct action against rodfim should begin.

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    1. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2012 at 2:39 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...I don't care what the situation is.You always have to know what the din is.Just because you are angry does not give you a heter to do whatever you want.You have the agenda.The crybaby agenda .If somebody is going after a little boy what are you going to do?Wait until something happens to the kid,call Rabbi Rosenberg,the DA,NYPD,CNN?How about direct action?Oh no.That would ruin your Kleenex and violin scenario.The looking for sympathy game should end and the direct action against rodfim should begin."

      From the above, it would seem that NOPSHIE63 is recommending vigilante "justice" that would be a kind of summary justice by mob rule, that would not rely on either the legal systems or the free Press, by taking quick action against "rodfim" -- essentially NOSHIE63 is advocating "street justice" used by street gangs which is not "justice" at all.

      A rodef, no matter how bad and how guilty is fully entitled to a legal representation, a fair trial, exposure in the free Press, and the same goes for the alleged victims. Honestly what NOSHIE63 seems to be advocating now is scary. It's not even clear who he deems to be the "rodef" here, because from the point of view of Webereman's Satmar backers, including Rav Aron Teitelbaum, it is the young girl who is the problem and she is the "rodef" against the holy Satmars who feel like the usual "nirdafim" "victims" of a bad press and a hostile world of them versus us that they are used to, while from the point of Weberman's victim, it is Weberman who was always the rodef because of his ongoing acts not just against her but against many other of his victims.

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    2. Yes.Weberman.He is a moser.But I would rather have this solution to WPIX and Anderson Cooper.Rabbi Rosenberg-Vicky Polin-SHATNEZ!Hershy Deutch-Mary Murphy-SHATNEZ .The girl was not guilty of mesira.The whole din of killing a moser is extra judicial (AKA-vigilante).And I agree with you on NK.But I just can't swallow Rabbi Rosenberg with Vicky Polin.Rabbi Rosenberg's motives I believe are pure but that is not enough.I don't believe he is asking somebody.

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    3. I am not Satmar but I love them and I love Lubavitch.I love Sefardim.I am a Litvak.I love Chilonim who respect Yiddiskeit even if they don't practice it.I hate mosrim and rodfim even if they wear bgedei chassidee.I hate immorality being shoved by the likes of our media as the new reality.I hate people who make false accusations like Vicky Polin or NK.

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    4. Are you accusing me of supporting Weberman???Where do you come up with this stuff?How many times do I need to say he is a rodef and a mosser?

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    5. Recipients and PublicityDecember 17, 2012 at 2:29 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...I am not Satmar but I love them and I love Lubavitch.I love Sefardim.I am a Litvak.I love Chilonim who respect Yiddiskeit even if they don't practice it.I hate mosrim and rodfim even if they wear bgedei chassidee.I hate immorality being shoved by the likes of our media as the new reality.I hate people who make false accusations like Vicky Polin or NK."

      Stop it with all this "love-hate" relationships with people on the outside. Don't you have anything else to do but to decide who you "love-hate" and swing from one extreme to the other? You do not sound stable when you talk like this. You come across as a troll basically. Frankly you sound quite dangerous when you espouse the "Killing" of "mosrim" as if you were going out to do your weekly grocery shopping. That is not how life works and that is not Yiddishkeit, when you sound more like a gangster and Mafiosi than a Torah Jew. Stop it! Cool it! Let it go! Find another hobby! Go fishing or something! Have a scotch! You are not good at expressing yourself cogently and clearly. Nobody cares who you "love" or "hate" that is NOT the point. The point of any discussion is to gain clarity and understanding of the topic in hand and NOT to raise the blood pressure and come across as if you are trying to flame the discussion on this blog to heat up and boil over and thus ruin everything sensible and POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE that could come out of the discussions.

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    6. Well I see I am raising your blood pressure.This is natural for people who cannot accept any opinion but their own.Killing mosrim is not espoused by me.This is a din in the Torah.I didn't make it up.The Rambam says or quotes "Vchol Hamkidim Zoche".Noshie didn't invent that.If you have a problem with it it is not with me it is with The Torah.You don't seem to get the point as well that these are theoretical questions to Daas Torah and mostly academic.What is wrong with loving those who are Yarei Shamyim.Ahavas Yisroel is another mitzva in the Torah.You don't like it you don'tlike the Torah.I did write the Taryag mitzvos.We have a duty to hate those guilty of mesirain fact we daven for their destruction three times a day.If you have a problem with it you have a problem with Shmonah Asrei.Now I am a troll?You are the one who does not sound stable.You accused me of being a Satmar hack for Weberman and a paid one.What is the basis for this accusation.You accused me of being for Weberman.Why?No mekor for that one.Swinging from one extreme to another is a person who does understand the points I make.I know I was raised better than you were.My parents trained me in good middos.Name calling is not a good midda.

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    7. Recipients and PublicityDecember 17, 2012 at 5:02 PM

      NOSHIE63 or whoever you are, if you know so much, and you evidently do every time your ignorance is questioned you come up with "wonderful" shiurim from this and that "rebbe" and this and that "sefer" -- so why do you come on to this blog to ask questions as if you were dumb but in reality you already know everything and you already have all the answers??

      Now you have decided that "because" something is in the Shemone Esrei and the Rambam talks about it (the Rambam talks about EVERYTHING in the Torah, he re-organized and re-wrote the Gemora in his Mishsne Torah) so now that gives you the right to preach death sentences for people in broad daylight, is it for Weberman, or was it for Nuchem Rosneberg or was it meant for the girl who got Weberman in trouble for talking to the DA or is it for anyone who does not meet up to your standards of being a good "Jew"???? -- it is all very confusing trying to figure out which side of the fence you are on because the way you present your arguments it is impossible to know what you hold, just that you like killing a moser, enjoy it seems you would like to do it, would you like to have a choice of weapons? How would you kill them, with "arba misos bais din"? Run them over, poison them, drown them in the mikva (the all-time Chasidic favorite) or feed them last week's chulent and keegel till they explode from all the gas???? Force them to have sex with a gentile til they die or bring Chasidic teens in for same?? Who knows what is on your mind to "carry out death to mosrim ASAP" -- you know some things are best left for Hashem to do bidei shomayim, in spite of what you may think the voices of the Shemonei Esrei or the Rambam of your delusions are telling you, you will land up looking like Vicki Polin and you can go on the Oprah show and tell the world how to kill mosrim and how you enjoyed bumping off Weberman or was it Rosenberg or was it the ex-Satmar girl who went to court, or maybe all of them??. By the way, so far you have NOT said ONE thing to criticize Satmar. Do you think they are all "tzadikim gemurim"?

      You also do not communicate clearly. You seem to be on all sides of issues at the same time. First you clearly sound like you have come here to defend Weberman, then you come across as attacking him? Which is it? Come to think of it, I can't recall you ever making any clear-cut defenses of Weberman's victim who got him convicted.

      You seem to bring up questions that typically bother Satmar guys, like questions of mesira, killing mosrim, sex with unmarried girls, sex with shiksas, how serious or not serious it is and you have "rebbes" who told you the dos and don'ts of these abominations, all the kind of things that are on typical mixed up Satmar teenage boys' minds. Then again your spelling is better than any Satmar boy and you come with stories that you belong to a MO shull and your son plays with girls, it's all quite weird and it seems that you don't have one personality, all befitting a sockpuppet.

      Keep on asking your brilliant "questions" long enough, I am sure Rabbi Eidensohn will have to conclude that he is not preaching to a tabula rasa but to someone who is quite well-armed and has come here to make trouble. Prove me wrong, go on, I would love to see you be just a nice person.

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    8. Recipients and PublicityDecember 17, 2012 at 5:08 PM

      From Wikipedia:

      "A Sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term—a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock—originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an internet community who spoke to, or about himself while pretending to be another person. The term now includes other uses of misleading online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a third party or organization, or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer.

      The term "sockpuppet" was used as early as July 9, 1993 but did not become common in USENET groups until 1996. The first Oxford English Dictionary example of the term, defined as "a person whose actions are controlled by another; a minion," is taken from U.S. News and World Report, March 27, 2000...

      Meatpuppet: The term "meatpuppet" (or "meat puppet") is used as a pejorative description of various online behaviors. The term was current before the Internet, including references in Ursula Le Guin's science fiction story "The Diary of the Rose" (1976), the alternative rock band Meat Puppets, and the cyberpunk novelist William Gibson's Neuromancer (1984). Editors of Wikipedia use the term to label contributions of new community members if suspected of having been recruited by an existing member to support their position. Such a recruited member is considered analogous to a sockpuppet even though he is actually a separate individual (i.e. "meat") rather than a fictitious creation. Wired columnist Lore Sjöberg put "meat puppet" first on a satirical list of "common terms used at Wikipedia," defining the term as "a person who disagrees with you."

      Nevertheless, other online sources use the term "meatpuppet" to describe sockpuppet behaviors. For example, according to one online encyclopedia, a meat puppet "publishes comments on blogs, wikis and other public venues about some phenomenon or product in order to generate public interest and buzz"—that is, he is engaged in behavior more widely known as "astroturfing." A 2006 article in The Chronicle of Higher Education defined a meat puppet as "a peculiar inhabitant of the digital world—a fictional character that passes for a real person online." "

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    9. Oh so now I am a Satmar Chasid?I would consider that a mayleh. Add it to the list.Paid hack an armed person?If it seems that I am all over the place it is because I want to understand the issue from every persons point of view and the theoretical and if it is a halacha lemaaseh I have to ask.You are a very parnoid person.Stick to playing with your Charlie McCarty and hand puppets.This blog should be reserved for those seeking knowledge.

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    10. When somebody is modeh to a point you make you should be a gentleman and not claim they are all over the place.You might want to grab a Mesillas Yesharim.It would do you some good.

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    11. I am not new to the blog.I am only new to posting .I have been reading this blog for years.It wasn't exclusively about these abuse issues back in the day.There were other issues that came up as well at the time.I had consulted Daas Torah in reference to his YAD MOSHE at least three and a half years ago.

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    12. If somethings are left for Hashem to do Byedei Shamayim why not apply that to Vicki Polin and tell her to knock it off.Obviously .Your whole deal is the aura of being a victim.A real geshmak!I don't feel this is a good idea.This brave young lady (in the Weberman case) and her husband I hope will build a bayis neeman beisrael and have only shalom veshalva from now on.I know in reality that it will be horribly difficult if not impossible given the damage done to her by this monster.The other type is the one I am talking about,Devorah Feldman and her debunked book or Pearlperry Reich?Great.Go on Dr.Phil,go on the VIEW.Slam everybody even though there are good people involved with Tzedakah,Chesed,Bikkur Cholim,etc.And despite the fact that I am no fan of Ortholib,Rabbi Shmuel Boteach he told her off.You can't blame everybody for the sins of a few reshaim.

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    13. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 1:55 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...If somethings are left for Hashem to do Byedei Shamayim why not apply that to Vicki Polin and tell her to knock it off."

      RaP: I don't control Vicki Polin. Who does? Not sure if anyone does. And she is most definitely NOT God in any way! But what has she got to do with the price of tea in China? You have no right to claim that it's ok to bump off people you hate that you deem to be "mosrim" because no such thing is allowed today. It must be left to Hashem. Even in Israel there is no death penalty. Only the Nazi Eichman was executed. In America the Mafia does things like that. We are not living in the times of the RAMBAM where Caliphs and Sultans with swords can behead anyone they please, even for the best of reasons. In today's world even the worst moser can be dealt with without killing them. Vicki Polin has nothing to do with the situation of Weberman so why are you mixing her in? You are obviously confused.

      "Obviously .Your whole deal is the aura of being a victim.A real geshmak!I don't feel this is a good idea."

      RaP: Victim of what? This is a blog and we are all just blogging. Expressing views, and if you don't use logic or "sechel" you make no sense. Period.

      "This brave young lady (in the Weberman case) and her husband I hope will build a bayis neeman beisrael and have only shalom veshalva from now on.I know in reality that it will be horribly difficult if not impossible given the damage done to her by this monster."

      RaP: Wait, most if not all of Satmar claims that she is the "monster" and that Weberman is the "tzadik" that is why they are spending millions to defend him and why Aron Teitelbaum of Satmar besmirched her in public. Do you agree with him or not? You can't have it both ways. Either Weberman-Aron Teitelbaum is right or the girl who was abused by Weberman is right, unless you are saying they are both right, or both wrong, which makes it even more impossible to understand you, let alone discuss anything with you in a coherent way.

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    14. Recipients and PublicityDecember 19, 2012 at 1:55 PM

      "NOSHIE63 said...The other type is the one I am talking about,Devorah Feldman and her debunked book or Pearlperry Reich?Great.Go on Dr.Phil,go on the VIEW."

      RaP: Now why are you bringing in these folks. They may be right or wrong, if they have a case they can go to court. Some have some haven't, it's not part of the Weberman case per se. Obviously you don't like that they have gone to the secular free Press and are making their allegations there. So be it. Either disprove them with facts, go to the press yourself with your version, feel free issue a press release it's still a free country, but you can't tell them that what they are saying is all false or that they can't go to be guests on a talk show. Not everything is rosy in frumland. What are you afraid that a little of light will be shined on the big frum communities? It will be good for them and they will be forced to be more careful and hopefully clean up their acts. But it will be a long time before "behaimas" and bullies become real caring "mentschen" and treat women and children and the weak with respect. Hope springs eternal.

      "Slam everybody even though there are good people involved with Tzedakah,Chesed,Bikkur Cholim,etc."

      RaP: Of course, they do lots of good. But making sandwiches for people in hospitals, and giving money to people without work skills who should have been trained in their youth, is not an excuse to beat up other people you don't like, threatening them with violence, expelling them from communities and kicking their kids out of schools in the name of Satmar PC. There is good and bad and the situation is complicated. So what are you trying to do? You just sound mixed up.

      "And despite the fact that I am no fan of Ortholib,Rabbi Shmuel Boteach he told her off."

      RaP: He also had a debate with a Jewish woman who posed nude for Playboy. He has his own ideas and you can't prove much of anything from what he says or writes, but he is fun to watch and very entertaining, oh, and by the way, he is a HUGE publicity hound, he is in the media all the time, something that all Lubavitchers seem very good at it seems and they have no guilt about it as long as they sell their brand to the max, but you are failing at that so give it up.

      "You can't blame everybody for the sins of a few reshaim."

      RaP: Who is blaming "everybody"? When did that happen? Who are the "reshaim" in your opinion? It's never clear from anything you say because you speak out of all sides of your mouth, because as the old wild west Red Indians used to say to the Palefaces: "White man speaks with forked tongue"!

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    15. Sadly,Ortholib,Rabbi Boteach is a publicity hound.The good friend of the rasha,Michael Jackson (Yimach Shmo).But he is a brilliant man.I don't consider him Lubavitch despite his previous affliations.He is strong on Israel.So looky here.In a few sentences I have said two contradictory things about Rabbi Boteach.He speaks out for Israel,Jewish communities and he is a publicity hound.All over the place.I think not.He has maalos and some pretty serious bad points.Who is the woman who was Jewish in Playboy?But no frum,right?I have to address the point on death penalty here because I can't find the original statement.The death penalty had to be abolished because it was racist.Sure,down south a white girl who got herself in trouble could simply blame an African American because these people could not afford a proper defense.The goyim were in violation of the sheva mitzvos because we need honest courts.An all white jury would obviously execute the wrongly accused African American every single time.The federal government stepped in with civil rights legislation.This is of no help to the thousands of falsely accused and executed African American victims of the "crackers".The libs got that one right.

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  16. Rabbi Eidonsohn,

    Can you clarify according to the halacha if someone abused a teenage girl or a minor, what is the source of the aveira and what would the punishment be?

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    1. I dealt with this in a recent post

      http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=7309929059139673041#editor/target=post;postID=4993145789335165690

      In addition - as I have detailed in my book we are dealing with a person causing pickuach nefesh issues or at least significant mental health problems.

      If we take the preventative rodef or community predator model - then one can call the police - and the punishment will be whatever the secular law calls for.

      If the issue is kept to beis din - then we get into simon 2 of Choshen Mishpat - a community can do whatever they feel is necessary to preserve the well beings of the community.

      if you are asking about molesting which involves inappropriate touching or showing pornography - then the answer is there is no explicit aveira or punishment. There is of course the prohibition against hirhur - but I assume you were asking for something more expicit.

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    2. I always learn something.I always thought the guy was only chayev malkus mordus if he had beiah with a pnueia.

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    3. hahaha!Now I get it.This whole sock puppet business is on the UOJ site.I knew it!RAP IS UOJ.Why would I be talking Torah to a person who doesn't believe it.By the way,why haven't you confronted Kolko if you hate him so much?What makes you think at the very least in that regard people won't be sympathetic to you?Now I know who Leib Tropper is.I read it off your site.You think I am a paid hack because the asherim pay people to do things.It would not occur to you that a Jew could be sincere and care about the Kavod of Klall Yisroel and the innocent victims as well.Your experiences have made you into a cynic .

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    4. Recipients and PublicityDecember 18, 2012 at 1:49 PM

      Very funny, UOJ is a busy businessman and he hardly ever looks at other blogs, including his own lately, where he has been posting very little lately compared to past years. UOJ has helped other blogs with legal help when they have become disrupted by people who make legal or other sorts of serious threats. Anyone who knows how UOJ operates would laugh at your weird "conclusions". But anyhow, thanks for the compliment, UOJ is a gavra rabba who has done a lot to put the light on child abuse by rabbis and how it is covered up in the frum community. UOJ (Paul Mendlowitz as he has lately posted openly about himself openly on his blog) is a wealthy person, he has many connections to the media and to law enforcement on many levels and he knows how to us his influence and get results, even in the frum world they take him very seriously because as he says "he gets results", and his reach is quite long, so my advice would be don't mess with him, you will regret it if you do. That is just what I have learned from watching the Jewish blogosphere but feel free to make fun at your own risk. You are pathetic.

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  17. A man who touches a child for sexual pleasure is like a man who touches a woman for sexual pleasure or a man who touches a man for sexual pleasure. All of this is a LAV from the Torah and one must die rather than transgress. See Shach Yoreh Dayah 147,10 and the Ramo 1.

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  18. Noshie63,

    Biah with a nidah is chayev koreis and lo sikrivu is yehoraig v'al yaavor.

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  19. The thing that didn't enter into my mind was that she would obviously be a nida.I asked a rebbe many years ago when we were learning Kesuvos.He told me biah with either a single Jew or non-Jew was only malkus mardus by beis din if the guy got caught and (any chiyuv careis was min hashamayim).My current rebbe told me that biah with a goya geluy arias and Yehoraig Val Yavor.And if a person has an uncontrollable taiva he should not go with her but as a last resort be by himself (Sefer Chassidim).

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    1. yes it is assumed that girls are nida. Regarding the prohibition of a non-Jewish woman

      Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:2): The Torah prohibition of sexual relations with non-Jews is only in the context of marriage. Fornication with a non-Jew is a rabbinic prohibition and is punished with lashes which the Sages decreed in order to prevent marriage….

      Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:6): If the man having relations with a non-Jewish woman doesn’t get punished by zealots and doesn’t get rabbinic lashes from beis din – then the punishment is kares which is known from tradition (Malachi 2:11-12)…We learn that this verse that someone who has sexual relations with a non Jewish woman is as if he is married to an idol since this verse describes her the daughter of a strange god and it is described as profaning G d’s holiness.

      I don't understand your current rebbe's position. And we don't posken like what I assume is the Sefer Chassidim he is referring to:

      Sefer Chasidim (#176): There was an incident with a person who asked about a person who lust became overwhelming. He was afraid that he would have sex with a married woman or with his wife who was a nidah or some other prohibited relationship – could he waste his semen in order that he should sin? The reply given was that at that time it was best to waste his semen. If it was impossible that it was best to waste his semen rather than sin with a women. However he does require atonement. In the winter he should sit in the snow, while in the summer he should fast for forty days.

      Beis Shmuel (E.H. 23:1): It is prohibited to produce semen – The Chelkas Mechokek cites the Sefer Hasidim that if a man is afraid he will transgress having sex with another man’s wife or with a niddah, G d forbid!, it is better that he waste his semen. However he should fast 40 days during the summer or sit in the cold during the winter. This that the Zohar says here that the production of semen for nothing is more severe than other sins – this is not precisely true.

      Chelkas Mechokak (E.H. 23.1): It is prohibited to waste seed – The Sefer Hasidim writes that if a man is afraid he will transgress having sex with another man’s wife or with a niddah, G d forbid!, it is better that he waste his seed. Nonetheless he should fast 40 days during the summer or sit in the cold during the winter.

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    2. That was the same Sefer Chasidim that I saw,yes.But I find it so interesting that in the context of what was discussed yet another extrajudicial killing was referred to."Kanoim pogim bo".We don't practice this but there is a concept that exists .I didn't invent this even though this RAP person who told me to leave the blog thinks so.

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    3. My rebbe said that beiah with a non-Jew was gilui arayos.On another issue I saw the Sefer Chassidim.The rebbe had was not involved with that one.It is brought down but we see the importance of asking.

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    4. that is not so poshut


      Shulchan Aruch (YD 157:1): There are only three sins - that if a non-Jews says to transgress or he will kill - for which a Jew is required to die rather than transgress. They are arayos (prohibited sexual relations), idolatry or murder. ... Rema: But this is only if the non-Jew demands that the Jew actively do the sinful act i.e., a man to have sexual relations with a woman or be killed. But if the non-Jew rapes a Jewish woman it is not necessary to die rather than have sexual intercourse.....In general when a non-Jew has sexual relations with a Jewish woman it is not considered arayos.

      Shach (Y. D. 157:10-13):]] Most Poskim hold that Bi'as Yisrael with a Nochris is Arayos only because Kana'im Pog'im Bo, which is only in public. However, the Nimukei Yosef says that it is Chayavei Kerisos and requires Mesiras Nefesh even in private. Bi'as Yisrael with a Nochris is Arayos, for Kana'im Pog'im Bo, which is like Misah and Kares ("U'Vo'al Bas Ben Nechar; Yachres Hash-m" - Malachi 2:11). Kana'im Pog'im Bo does not apply to Bi'as Nochri with a Bas Yisrael. Only Bi'as Yisrael with a Nochris is Arayos, because it produces an idolater; the child is a Nochri, like her.

      Shach (Y.D. 157:14): If a non-Jew has intercourse with a Jewish woman – however this is only if she is unmarried but a married woman is a Torah prohibited sexual relationship. This is also what the Taz writes. Even though the view of Rabbeinu Tam is that even for a married woman there is no Torah prohibition – nevertheless all the poskim disagree with him.

      Taz (Y.D. 157:6):[[ R. Tam says that Bi'as Nochri with a Bas Yisrael is never Arayos. However, all the Poskim say that if she is an Eshes Ish it is Arayos. There is no Misah or Kares for Bi'as Nochri with a Bas Yisrael; it is only a Lav. We cannot learn from Na'arah Me'orasah at all.

      Milchamos Hashem (Megila 15a): [[R. Tzadok and Rav Kahana were ready to kill themselves rather than sin with Nochriyos who intended for their own benefit (Kidushin 40a). Surely they would not go beyond the letter of the law to kill themselves! "V'Ach Es Dimchem l'Nafshoseichem Edrosh" forbids suicide. The Yerushalmi forbids Mesiras Nefesh beyond the letter of the law. And even though through marriage it is not Arayos (only a Lav "V'Lo Sischaten Bam").

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