Friday, July 6, 2012

Weiss Family Statement & Supporting Documents

84 comments :

  1. a travesty in halocho! This is a sham! a man responds to a bais Din and they still issue a seiruv! It smells from bribery!!

    DT, can you post an article raising the following question?? Can the Orthodox/Chareidi world accept the GITTIN that Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag is involved in , if one does not rely on his triangle-K Hashgocho on food? For all that dont know, Triangle-K certifies hebrew National as Kosher! How then could his GITTIN be kosher!

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  2. Unfortunely Feinstein & Kotler are chasuva mishpachas that should always keep a distance.....and avoid marriage relationships.

    The Weiss's are emesdik and sincere in their dealings, may shalom reign soon.

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  3. Too bad he didn't include the filing he made against his wife on March 18 2010 seeking full custody and alimony. That is a key piece of information that has been withheld here.

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    1. Michael: How is that relevant?

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    2. How do you know he tried to seek alimony? He did not leave out the fact that he tried to seek custody.

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    3. So he wanted to be supported by his wife while he neglected their son.

      Lovely.

      This is a terrible human being. No wonder the Weiss family wants to keep this matter a secret. Abusive behavior thrives on silence.

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  4. Michael Tzadok's comment on the 06/28/12 posting on this blog:
    "2)Yes he did because he (Rav Gestetner) clearly states in his Bitul Seruv that the wife went to Arkaot against her husband which is absolutely not the case"

    The documents posted here (J2) clearly show Mrs. Dodelson as the Plaintiff filing a full divorce lawsuit in archaos, and expose once again Tzakok's propaganda and BIG LIE techniques against Rav Gestetner, SHLITAH, and other non-feminist Ashkenazi Chareidi rabbis.

    Michael Tzadok, the ORA troll, rah-banut SHA$ operative, and master of the BIG LIE, has been caught once again spreading lies against victimized Jewish husbands, inciting hatred against non-feminist Ashkenazi Chareidi rabbis, and defending moredes women in archaos.

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    1. Let's try this again.

      1) The document you are speaking of is asking ONLY for a secular divorce and thus cannot be considered mesirah in any way.
      2) That document is dated January 2011.
      3) Weiss filed AGAINST Dodelson on March 18 2010.(Documentary evidence is in blog owner's possession).
      4) He filed not only for custody, but FULL ALIMONY as well. Which is not listed in the supposed heter that received.

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    2. Michael: Weiss had a Heter Arkoyos from Beis Din, as the documentation in this post makes clear.

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    3. And as far as filing for full custody, Weiss court action as plaintiff has been nullified by Dodelson's court filing making her plaintiff. Thus disabling Weiss' ability to withdraw.

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    4. Re: "asking ONLY for a secular divorce" -
      Tzadok, you obviously have no understanding of the civil divorce process, even while you make false assertive claims against non-feminist Chareidi rabbis and victimized Jewish husbands. Page J2 is just the first page of a multi-page full divorce lawsuit. The RELIEF asked by the Plaintiff (Mrs. Dodelson) is normally stated at the end of the divorce complaint, and normally includes custody for the Plaintiff, "equitable distribution", child support, alimony, etc. We don't know the actual relief requested here, but its certainly a full divorce lawsuit.

      The J2 document clearly shows, contrary to your previous false claims, that Mrs. Dodelson went to archaot against her husband.

      Tzadok, looks like you're getting more desperate as more of your lies are exposed.

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    5. Dovid-
      Where in that heter does it give him the ability to sue for Alimony?

      EmesLeYaakov-
      Why do you assuem that Dodelson didn't have a heter Arkaot?

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    6. Michael:

      1. Dodelson used illegitimately arkoyos to demand child support from Weiss. Perhaps this alimony request by Weiss was how he reacted.

      2. Even if Weiss was wrong to request alimony, it is a past issue, as Dodelson is now plaintiff and Weiss cannot withdraw court action.

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    7. Michael, call a lawyer and he will tell you in new jersey you can't separate the 2.

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    8. PS: See J1 Line 2 in her request for a divorce where she says she has filed for "Divorce-Dispute resolution Alternative to Conventional Litigation" which means that she waives her rights to have a court decide child custody and alimony and wants all of that to be heard in an outside mediator(i.e. B"D).

      So she is requesting the court grant her a civil divorce(not mesirah and not considered Arkaot by most poskim) and that the court not involve itself in custody, equitable distribution or alimony, but leave that to an outside mediator(B"D). What about this is supposed to "prove me wrong"?

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    9. I have now come to the realization that michael tzadok can not read or understand the English language. He probably doesn't know halacha either but that is another point. Michael, get yourself a lawyer to explain to you that you sound like a total buffoon in your attempt to explain any of these papers. If you are happy with seeing what you want to see and happy with hearing what you want to hear then stay on your stupid blog that no one reads. Why do you need to come here and share your stupidity?

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    10. More sockpuppetry Stan. You know if you are going to link to a law firm at least do one that is inside the US, and preferably, since this is NJ that we are talking about, NJ. Yet again instead of actually providing any facts to back up your assertions, you simply resort to Ad Hom. You make this far too easy.

      For sake of full disclosure:
      I was a Talmid of BMG. So in my mind if Rav Kotler says the situation is thus, and especially when documentary facts support it, I am going to believe him. I am a Rav Kotler supporter.

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    11. MT,
      I had nothing to do with the previous post. But if it annoyed you, I will take all the credit. The problem with arguing with you is that you make up facts and ignore the truth. I am not interested in your upbringing but you are welcome to join forces with whomever you choose. I highly doubt that your precense is welcome or desired.

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  5. Emes leyakov, you are right! The rabbanut in Israel will arrest and jail a foreigner man for any question on a GET, they impose themselves on everyone as if they have jurisdiction over every jewish man on earth! I wonder if a destitute american visiting Israel would be eligible to receive "the financial benefits/subsidies that an Israeli would receive? Of course not!!! Butjail they would do for a questionable kosher get.What a bunch of reshoim!

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  6. Money Money Money and more Money. Thats what Judaism and our modern day excuse for a bais din system has become about. Some of our "great Gedolim" signed a letter full of lies about Avrahom Meir and his family, should we believe them because thats "Daas Torah"?? What a complete laughing stock they have made of themselves!! It is no wonder that our people are invloved in so many scandals - the higher up you go the more crooked they are.

    RSK has once again shown why he is irrelevant - sign now check out the facts latter (or don't even bother). Mrs. Dodelson is an "Aguna" just like Mrs. Epstein is. Stop drinking the ORA cool aid.

    It is a miracle - the "Charadim" have they joined up with Jeremy Stern & ORA who said the community "is not at a point right now where they're willing to fundamentally change how Jewish marriage and divorce works." Maybe now Jeremy has the support of R' Malkiel and R' Shmuel to go ahead and change Halacha. The conflict would be that ORA wants to change the halacha for everybody while the others first need to determine who has deeper pockets. Its sad to say but the "Charadei Gedolim" make Stern look good.

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    1. Stern is a tzaddik fighting on behalf of the halachic system that has this glaring loophole and Jewish women who are victims of abusers like Avroham Weiss.

      You are a vulgar little toad who contributes nothing to the world but vileness and venom. May your children never learn a thing from you.

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  7. I am not publishing anonymous comments - give your self a name!

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  8. In reply to some of the comments here: personally, I believe that Weiss is correct. However, how does one use this machlokes to justify bashing of gedolei yisroel? Why can't we assume they were misled...or maybe some other ways of being Dan lekaf zechus? Who says our assessment of the situation is even correct? The only avlah here was the fact that it was taken into the street...it seems the Weiss side did not defend themselves against this public humiliation until they absolutely had to. That means even they did not want such terrible machlokes and lashon harah against gedolei yisroel. Let's take their point and leave the decision to the people involved. The gedolim can duke this out. Real machlokes comes from the bandwagonners. If you don't like the gedolim anyway, that's fine. But we are none of us a court with all the facts in front of us. This can't be a reason to begin to dislike gedolim. Let's take a page out of rabbi feinstein's book and treat even those who are on the other side of an argument with enough respect not to go out in public and accuse.

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    1. How do you call them gedolim when they are willing to publicly humiliate another jew without checking out the facts? Some of these "gedolim" have an established a track record of the sign now check later policy. When you have Rabonim who are scared to speak the truth because of some "gedolim" there is a serious issue.

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  9. Michael tzadok can post as much defamation and falsehoods as he likes on this web site insulting one of the two only non corrupt dayonim in the whole of the US but responses are not permitted. Prvada continue the good work.

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  10. יחיאל: להוציא סירוב מזויף הוא "רציחה", ולדברי האגר"מ יש לו דין "מסית"ו אין מלמדין זכות על המסית

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  11. father of the oppressedJuly 6, 2012 at 6:35 PM

    Obviously none of these bloggers live in Lakewood or you would be scared to write any of this. My children are there and they say you can't even bring this up or you'll be ostracized. Don't kid yourselves, I am stupid and risking my children's and grandchildrens lives by writing this.

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    1. By father of the oppressed, do you simply mean that you have kids in lakewood? Or are you involved and have info

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  12. father of the oppressedJuly 6, 2012 at 6:36 PM

    T.B. Shabbos 139a, Kovets Ma'amorim - Omer Ani Ma'ase LaMelech ...

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  13. gedolim are allowed to make mistakes. but when they realize that they made a mistake they must ask michilah from everyone they hurt - directly or indirectly. if they don't they becomeketanim.
    a person is allowd to make a mistake,allowed to make many mistakes. but one is not allowed to make the same mistake over and over. then its no longer a mistake - it becomes the actions of a child or a fool

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    1. I don't know if they asked mechilah or not. I just know I am very impressed by the way the weisses handled this, at least in the public forum. And I am sure they know more than you about the actionable of the gedolim. It seems from the way they write that they still have tremendous respect for rabbis kaminetzki and greenblatt. I don't know, in their position, if I would be able to be so respectful. That is all. I am not trying to minimize any aspect of this terrible situation or perpetrators of cruelty.

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  14. Choker of course I agree with you. I misspoke. I meant that the weisses were showing us a good example of how to minimize machlokes. And they themselves did not speak ill of the gedolei yisroel, though they are probably upset. Except for that angry post about the screenshots, which is completely out of charachter and cannot be coming from the Weiss side, based on their exemplary behavior benogea the public forum until now. All I meant to say above is that it is clear that we can learn this from the weisses whether they are right or not. They showed tremendous restraint and an unwillingness to publicly embarrass anyone or call anyone names though they were obviously able to, as evidenced by this documentation. And yes, even gedolim can be misled. So let's not blast people like rsk and rng just because they may have signed a letter to rrf. EVEN IF THIS MAY HAVE BEEN AN ERROR. My point is, why do the comments standing up for the weisses have to be vicious when the weisses are calmly defending themselves?

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  15. yechiel, we are dealing with a completely corrupt bais din system and a yiddishkeit that has been compltely compromised by the minutias of chumrahs which is fine as long as it does not become a replacement for yashrus and emes but unfortunately it has in fact become this.

    6000 learning in lakewood but an inability to produce a non-corrupt bais din other than rav gestetner. and purported gedolim supporting family members when they are corrupt but ignoring all other corruption perpetrated by fake agunahs and the like.

    The worst part has become the merger of YU as represented by herschel schachter and mordechai willig with the chareidim either going after men whose wives have oppressed them in the most vicious ways for gittin.

    please - there is a mitzvah of uviaro horo mikerbecho. the only reason this happened in the 1st place is because where is rav dovid feinstein etc in condemning corrupt botei din?

    it reminds me of the priest in the holocast eho said 1st they came after the jews and i kept quiet because i was not a jew, and then they went after the fag's but i kept quiet because i was not a fag, then the commies etc but i was not a commie but now when they come after me there is no one to protest because all those who protested have been eliminated.

    time for those on the side of yashrus to stand up and be counted. any woman who refuses to allow a father to see his children or goes to arko'oys, her parents, siblings all put in cheirem, not allowed in the daled amos of a shul, yeshiva, kollel, bais medrash, hora'as sho'o and all her siblings children thrown out of school and sent to public school. and no dayan who has ever taken any kind of money for a din torah ever be allowed to be a dayan.

    until then we will have all the troros in the world - just like it says in shabbos that bad things happen in this world only because of those who distort thre halochoh - just like mochon le'horo that tzadok was praising so effusively until now.

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  16. Lakewood ResidentJuly 6, 2012 at 10:38 PM

    As soon as the Kotlers get a hold of this case it will go to R Malkiel Kotlers uncle who will give the Dodelsons a blanket Heter Arkous to do whatever they want as Finkel has done many times over the years for his relitives the Kotlers and Bursztyns

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  17. First, this propaganda by the Weiss family is completely classless. I understand censoring documents of personal addresses but if you are going to censor your own address, at least have the decency to censor everyone else's. They should not have published Gital's address. That is disgusting.

    Second, the moderator is in possession of court documents proving Weiss is the plaintiff in a suit for more than just custody. He was seeking alimony. The moderator has admitted that Weiss is the plaintiff. If he doesnt want to post them, fine. But at least correct the record when anonymous bloggers claim otherwise.

    Third, Rabbi Tzadok is correct that these court documents are divorce proceedings. No BD has the power to effectuate a civil divorce.

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    1. Contrary to your assertion I only have a page of court documents which says he is plaintiff for custody. Mentions nothing about alimony.

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    2. Apologies. What say you, rabbi tzadok? How do you know he is plaintiff for alimony. This one detail would seem to be very important.

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    3. Reply to James:
      "Rabbi Tzadok is correct that these court documents are divorce proceedings. No BD has the power to effectuate a civil divorce."

      James, you are learning well Tzadok's obfuscation and deception techniques. First you claimed that DT was in possession of court documents "seeking alimony" which DT then denied.

      Now you're attempting to bamboozle the readers into thinking that when two parties submit a Bais Din divorce settlement to a NJ court, they would file a "Complaint for Divorce", ie a divorce lawsuit, which Mrs. Dodelson has done.

      A Bais Din settlement does NOT require a lawsuit in archaos! A Bais Din settlement submitted to a NJ court does NOT state Complaint (ie lawsuit), rather it would state something like "Judgement of Divorce with Settlement Agreement Attached".

      James, are you now a sock puppet for Tzadok's lies? You're learning well from Tzadok.

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    4. James, maybe someone will demonstrate in front of Gital's house! You want classless, what they did to Weiss was classless. If anyone has shown class here, it has been the Weiss's who have maintained virtual silence in the face of incredible adversity and attacks from the establishment. Even after they publish what is almost absolute proof that they are right, people like Tzadok STILL attack them! What class.

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    5. Why don't the dodelsons.want their address known? what are the afraid of- a visit from ORA?

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    6. I don't think he needs to publish his address. The Dodelsons did that already through ORA.

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    7. James,
      Check your email.

      Emes LeYaakov,
      Have you ever filed for divorce in the state of NJ? Unlike what you are trying to push here as truth any dissolution of of a civil union requires a complaint for divorce in which one person is the Plaintiff and the other the defendent.  That is true even if it is a no fault divorce or one in which one desires an outside mediator(B"D) to determine division of assets and custody issues.  This make abundantly clear in this brochure, available online, that the State of New Jersey has put out.     Further to day the State of New Jersey has also published this letter to the New Jersey Bar Association, which states that the Plaintiff in a divorce case(Doddelson in this case) is required to state that they have been informed of their NJ Supreme Court ensured right to outside arbitration and whether they are claiming that right(which Doddelson did, see line 2 of J1) or refusing it in favor of litigation(halakhically known as Arkaot).

      I'm waiting to hear how you are going to try and spin this.

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    8. Tzadok, you must rank as one of the biggest feminist / ORA / $HAS spin doctors of all time.

      Look at document J2 again - Mrs. Dodelson filed a complaint for divorce as Plaintiff in NJ Superior Court. J1 does NOT state that Mrs. Dodelson actually chose arbitration as you falsely claimed. Mrs. Dodelson filed a LAWSUIT against Mr. Weiss - look at the very website you referred to:

      COMPLAINT—The document that begins a lawsuit in the civil division of the New Jersey Superior Court. A complaint must set forth claims that give the party being sued a general idea about what he or she is being sued for. The party who files the complaint is known as the plaintiff.

      http://www.lsnjlaw.org/english/family/divorce/divorcenj/glossary/index.cfm#legalrelief

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    9. Your point?

      If you want a secular divorce you must file a complaint for divorce. Whether that is a no-fault divorce or not. None of those documents shows that Gittal Doddelson was asking for anything other than a secular divorce. If she were, it would need be stated in those documents. As you quoted.

      So either you are clueless about how divorce works in the State of NJ, or you are intentionally spinning this(i.e. lying). I don't know which. I suggest that you educate yourself. Start at the Preface and actually read through that brochure.

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    10. Emes - you are confusing the divorce process with litigation. Even if the divorce is uncontested, it must go through the courts. The proper procedure would be to file for divorce and waive all rights (or something similar) pursuant to a settlement. That is the procedure for contested and uncontested divorces. The courts in America do not process forms. They decide cases.

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  18. The only people who are classless are the Dodelsons and their supporters especially, Shomer Hapilagshim as Rav Gestetner so accurately refers to the head of ORA.

    Stopping a child from seeing his father. Shame on you James.

    MaCHON LE'HORO really started up this time with the wrong people.

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    1. I dont think she should stop Weiss from seeing his children. Assuming he is not abusive, his children deserve a father. But he should not use a demand for visitation as leverage for a GET. If Gital were such a bad person, why doesnt he just give her a GET in whichever BD she chooses and be done with her already?!?!

      You claim he already has a heter to go to court. So let him use that heter to continue seeking custody as he is currently doing. Withholding a GET in this case is pure punishment.

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    2. There is one child, and Weiss has been seeing that child at the very least since he initially filed his complaint in March 2010. The court ordered that he have visitation twice a week, and that he take the child every other Shabbos and Sunday. That has been in effect for the past two years. Weiss has never missed a week. So why exactly are we pretending that Dodelson somehow absconded with the child and refuses to allow Weiss to see him?

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    3. You seem to know the details, especially as you said Weiss has never missed a week. How do you know that? Why WOULD he miss a week? But I think what is claimed in these documents is that INITIALLY they did not allow him to see the child. Now that he has a court order, I don't think anyone would hold the child back just to go to jail.

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    4. You Cant Handle The TruthJuly 10, 2012 at 9:42 PM

      So again, WHY NO GET???

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    5. the reason there is no get is because she will stop him from seeing the kid ever again if he gave one. she already did it once. his family says they're broke. do you think he can keep fighting in court? let him use the get to get what is rightfully his.

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    6. Observer - does that mean that he never intends to give a get in order to have a weapon to ensure custody that he can't afford to establish in court?

      Or to put another way - what are his conditions for giving a get?

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    7. it sounds like the husband is basically giving the message that as long as his wife persists in being me'agen him from having his child, he will be me'agen her from having a husband. Ayin tachas Ayin.. or in our case "Igun tachas Igun" In english it's called "responding in kind".

      Just my uninformed observation..

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    8. nekama is not for man to exact, but Rather for G-d to enact

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    9. Nekama or Midah Kneged Midah is not a weapon for man to have in his arsenal, but rather for the MELECH HAMISHPAT to exact at HIS will

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  19. This sounds a little like the Friedman case. What does he want? Will he never give a get? NO! From what I understand of the case, he is very eager and willing to give a get. But the same situation as Weiss - from Epstein past actions, he is scared of losing his daughter. And Epstein proved this by going back to court (see the court documents) to try to severely limit his custody by lying and bringing false witnesses. And just like in the Weiss case, he is the underdog and does not have the money to keep going back to court. So what he needs is a iron clad guarantee that he will have a practical, workable, and guaranteed custody arrangement in light of all of Epstein's attempts at the opposite.

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    1. What would be an example of an ironclad guarantee that Weiss or Friedman would be willing to accept?

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  20. Been There Done ThatJuly 11, 2012 at 10:32 PM

    Having gotten divorced myself, and having been around the block once or twice, Here's the deal. One side over here is in the wrong. I can't tell you forsure who it is, but usually, it's the woman. And this is just the beginning for the poor man who crossed her path. Visitation will be a nightmare. See, there is no way to protect yourself from a woman who is trying to hurt you. You never win. He will travel to see the kid for two hours erev yom tov, and she will decide that the kid is not feeling well. Or he will find out that he has to wait 45 minutes to see him/her. Even then she will convince him either overtly or covertly that the father really is a bad man and she is only saying it because she "feels bad" for him. Chances are, regardless of what happens next, she will make it extremely hard for him in to develop the relationship he deserves with his kid. My only hope is that the wife is smart enough to realize that the best interest of the kid is that the parents get along. It is a process. They have to exhaust all their negative energy and thoughts at hurting each other, before they wear each other down, and finally realize that all the fighting was for naught. It is usually in the hands of one of them to end the fight right away, however don't count on it happening. All the rabbinic teachings that were taught to the tzaddik or taddekes goes out the window as soon as their marriage is broken. The families follow in the footsteps of korach and all those who came after him who followed his teachings. It is just a disaster. Oh ORA, forget about them, The Rabbis who decide to weigh in and sign letters and happen to be friends with one side, forget about them. They are all going you know where, and you know why. The beauty of pain caused L'sheim Shamayim has no equal.

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  21. You Cant Handle The TruthJuly 12, 2012 at 3:27 AM

    Look at how silent the Weiss trolls get when they are confronted by R Doniel with a simple question. What does he want to give the GET? They can say he wants rightful custody, but can't say what this means. He took it to court, but if he isn't happy with the outcome, still won't give.
    I have a scoop for you. He won't be happy with the outcome.
    Because it isn't about custody, it's about inflicting pain and asserting whatever control he can over his Ex and her family. And if they try to fight back, with the full backing of Gedolim, (RS Miller, REB Wachtfogel, RS Kamenetzky, RN Greenblatt) the Weiss's will distort, distract and obfuscate...

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    1. Is there anyone here who knows the answer to this question? How can you make assumptions about what Weiss will do in the future? The question we are all grappling with is what did he do wrong until now? Why is there a siruv against him, when the docs he provided are so clear? Do you have inside information? Are you trying to say that these gedolim did this to him because of what he will do in the future? Seems not to make sense...

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    2. "Look at how silent the Weiss trolls get..." yes, lets look at the silence of the Weisses. I happen to know both sides in this dispute. Rarely is the truth so one sided as it is here. The Weisses clearly do not beleive that the public forum - especially the blogs - is the place for the resolution of this ordeal to be determined or discussed. They suffered abuse at the heands of the Dodelsons and their flaks (including Malkiel Kotler) for two years and kept quiet. The Dodelsons have run around the whole world with a false siruv and the Weisses kept quiet. They got spurious letters signed against Avrohom Meir, they still kept quiet. The Dodlesons sent letters full of lies all over Lakewood and Staten Island - guess what? The Weisses kept quiet. Krupenia screamed at HaRav Feinstein in public at a levaya, they still kept quiet. They only released a statement after the Dodelsons pressed this issue into the street with their stupid rally. And even though their statement clearly shows how he was thrown under the bus, PEOPLE STILL GO AFTER HIM!!! You expect the Weisses to go on blogs to announce what a final resolution should look like?
      On the other hand, the Dodelsons know full well what they have to do in order to end this. The problem is that Saki Dodelson has no idea what it means to negotiate with someone else or to have to take someone elses opinion into consideration. The Dodelson approach is the same as what the Kotler approach usually is. Pressure pressure pressure. No negotiating no discussion. My way or the highway.
      I know Avrohom Meir, I know Gital. Avrohom Meir will give a get when the issues that have to be resolved are resolved. Use the Get as a "weapon?" What do you Dodelson people suggest? Give the get like a gentleman and then loose your child like a gentleman? Once the get is given who will support Avrohom Meir? R' Shmuel? The Kotlers? Come on.
      BTW, I am told (uncomfirmed, if someone knows for sure i would love to know) Gital is going to law school. You think she isnt going to litigate Avrohom Meir to death for the next fifteen years? Who will stand for Avrohom Meir then? the "Gedolim?"

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    3. You Cant Handle The TruthJuly 12, 2012 at 6:32 PM

      Perhaps when the most respected Beis Din in america issues a Siruv, (and Mechon L'Horaah is that,) and the Sarvan says it is uncalled for, and a laundry list of Gedolim sign on to the side that is against the Sarvan, Sechel Yeshoro would dictate that there is something fishy about the Sarvans story.

      A)Why for his Bittul Siruv does he go to a Beis Din that many consider fishy, why not any other well established Beis Din?
      B)When he claims that he got a private Psak from a williamsburg ruv (What, there are no litvisher rabbonim alive? isn't his grandfather somesort of Rabbi?) for a heter arkous, but when there's a filing from the wife that preempts it, he says she went to arkous shelo kdin?
      C) What is the Ziyuf that Shmeel Freid talks about in his letter to the Beis din?
      D) Why, in the week since this package of documents has been publicized, has NOT ONE RUV CHANGED HIS MIND from siding with Dodelson, if as Weiss claims, "the Dodelsons have shown this document to numerous Rabbanim, in order to persuade them to signa letter against Avrohom Meir". Shouldn't they be flocking to the Weiss side now?
      E)"None of those who signed ever called either Avrohom Meir, anyone from his family,...to hear his side of the story". You mean to say that R Malkiel had no conversations with R Reuven about this? What about R Dovid Schustal? R Shmuel Kamenetzky? R Nota Greenblatt? How "there is even a letter from R’ Malkiel Kotler...admitting that [child was witheld]" if he never spoke to the other side? Why don't they include this letter?
      F) RN Greenblatt RSK REBW & RMK write, "ומאחר שלא הפסיק מדרכו וממשיך בערכאות וגם עדיין מעגן את אשתו מוכרחים אנו
      למחות בכל תוקף ולפרסם ברבים כדי להציל עשוק מעושקו ועגונה מכבלי העיגון"
      Yet the Weiss'e write, "NO
      BEIS DIN
      HAS EVER RULED OR WRITTEN THAT AVROHOM MEIR IS A מעגן, DESPITE WHAT THE DODELSONS AND THEIR ALLIES AT YESHIVA UNIVERSITY AND ORA WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE."
      I don't believe any of these are ORA or YUniks.

      Enough with the lies.

      Enough with the self-righteous proclamations.

      Be a man and say that you don't want to give a get because you want money or some other outlandish demand you have, and then we might actually believe you...

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    4. Ok, I had just resolved to no longer post on this issue (largely because I get the feeling it is not what the Weisses truly want)and then I read this last post from You Cant... and my resolve went out the window. Im giving it one more.
      First, you are a Dodoelson family member, that much is clear. Be smart, instead of fighting on the blogs, make a fair deal with the other side and move on.
      Second, Mechon L'Hoyroa is not "the most respected beis din in america". It is a heavily used beis din by the people who are "in the business" because they can rig their decisions. Even if they were, that would not be much of a compliment given the sdate of commercial batei din in this country.
      Third, the "laundry list of rabbonim" who signed their lettters did not do any due dilligence whatsoever. this is by their own admission.
      Fourth, Why a Williamsburg Rav? Let me see... If you were in a fight with the Kotlers, would you go to a member of the establishment? Lets see you deny that YOUR FAMILY (see above) does not use intimidation against their enemies (ie, anyone that disagrees with them).
      Fifth,If the Baal had a heter arkoyos, and apparently he did, then he had the halachic right to go. If the Isha did not have one then she had no halachic right to go. Simple as that. The Baals complaint is fair.
      i will continue on another post because I will prob. exceed the limit.

      Delete
    5. Continued: Sixth, Why a "fishy" (I assume you mean R' Gestetner) Rav to kill off the phony siruv? Who else do you go to? another member of the establishment whose sole interest is to keep the party going? Like Gestetner or hate him, he is one of the few people around with the guts to stand up to garbage like this.
      Seventh, I cant address the "ziyuf" you refer to because I dont know what youa are talking about, but I will say this. S. Fried is a well known zayfun and he has been for years. Everyone on the beis din circuit is aware of this, and it is a black mark on the eyes of all bate din that they still allow his involvment in cases. if he says something is mezuyaf I would tend to beleive him - he is probablu the forger!
      eighth,Why no retraction from the letter writers. Are you serious??? You never ever ever get a retraction letter from these people. as far as them changing their mind, we dont know that they havent. I have heard that some of those Rabbonim were quite upset with the Dodelsons (I should just use "you") when the Weisses documents were released. Indeed, I Live in Lakewood and have heard that R' Shustel is furious that he has been sucked in to this crime.
      Ninth, there is talk around lakewood that R' Shmuel said very clearly that he never signed any letter that said the baal in this case is a magen, andd that his siganture has been attached to a text that he never signed (although he says he did sign that if there is a siruv the baal should go to din - but it turns out there is no siruv so thats that). Unfortunately thsi is no great shock. For all we know the text you are quoting was written by the Dodelsons and attached over the signatures.
      Tenth,Stop pretending that it is shocking htat no one called the Weisses for their side. The scenario is very simple. Malkiel signs a letter. he calls R' Shmuel and cries a river, he signs the letter. Someone calls Greenblatt and tells him about the great avlah going on here and he, the great protector of the beis din machine, signs a letter. Now you call Wachtfogel andyou got a =nother one. Someone close to the Weisses told me that R' Shustel, Wachtfogel, And R' Shmuel all have admitted to not knowing the other side of the story before they signed. While that is completely horrifying, its what you get nowadays.

      You know what? I could go on and on and on but i just dont have the patience or the time. I dont know the Weisses, but I do know the system. Guys like Weiss get shelacked by the system all the time. Alot of them just give up, move on, and lose out. Sometimes there kids come back by themselves years later. (with boys that happens very often - watch out Dodelson, this will backfire). But to try and protect what s happening here is a crime in itself. Somebody was issued a siruv completely shelo khalachah and the thugs who did it will pay in the next world. if we allow it to continue, we all will pay because we will have to keep living under such a system.

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    6. You Cant Handle The TruthJuly 12, 2012 at 10:25 PM

      The absurdity of what your so called response will be illustrated now.
      1)You don't know me. I don't know you. But the fact that you have to claim that I'm obviously A Dodelson family member (I'm not) allows me to claim that you must be Avrohom Meir Weiss. To decide I'm a Dodelson because I see their side as the one which makes more sense to be true is more absurd. As I was at the rally and saw many people who weren't related to the Dodelsons there, but I have yet to see any people from the "hamoyn am" self identify as a Weiss supporter. Ergo, you MUST be Avrohom Meir Weiss.
      2)Please name a more well respected Beis Din than Mechon L'Horaah. If the best you can do is smear the Beis Din, any baal seichel can and is seeing through it.
      3)"By their own admission"?!?!? Interestingly this is an unsubstantiated claim, and one you are making up, as is with most of the other claims. like:
      A) your claim that Rav Schustal is furious. LIE
      B) Your claim that Rav Shmuel R Dovid and R Elya Ber said they were duped/didn't sign. LIE
      C) your claim that by reputation R Gestetner isn't seen as a joke, while Mechon L'horaah (which ajudicates all the biggest cases) is. LIE
      4) Using the phony corrupt establishment over and over, about all the Eini ha"eida and batei dinim to negate their deiah, is a claim worthy of Adas Korach. Amazing how the Weiss's want to attack Dodelson for using ORA's know how to stage rallies (upon advice of rabbonim), while they engage in the explicitly Modern Orthodox practice of bashing ALL Chareidi rabbonim as negligent, curropt or out of touch.
      5) Weiss claims he had a heter arkaos. This he obtained by getting the same person he now claims is his Borer, to write a tshuva that it is ok. Dodelson counterclaimed, the Beis Din obviously said what she did was ok halachikly, as evidenced by their issuance of the Siruv to Weiss. END OF STORY.
      6)So Nobody but Gestetner is an Ish Emes, All they care is to keep the party going. WOW!!!
      7) obviously you need to actually READ the Weiss documents before commenting, because it says it black on white, but the Weiss's for some reason refused to address it.
      8)9) and 10) have all been previously addressed.

      I would urge anyone who cares for the truth to look at what he, (and the Weiss's) declined to address...

      Delete
    7. I am not a Weiss or a dodleson. However, I think thatvtje guy isn't a dodleson is stretching things and the guy who isn't a Weiss is feeling a downhill ride. You're both crazy. Weiss has proven the BD is corrupt. Face it because its assumed as a known and the dodlesons fight has gone down with it. This Weiss guy should hold the get until things get settled. Anyone who doesn't think that wayvis crazy. I don't know what Weiss is holding out for but if its normal he should get it easy. Just listening to the shprach on the street tells you the girl and her family would be crazy not to take a deal. If Weiss isn't asking for something crazy- if he is then its another story. Problem is that no one trusts the dodleson side anymore. The rabbis who you claim haven't changed their opinion are no where to be heard. I will tell you that the things you call lies have been verified time and time again. Ora killed it for the dodlesons. These rabbis are long gone. As far as them going over to the weiss side, that remains to be seen. So Mr not dodleson please realize public opinion is strongly against you whether you care or not and Mr not Weiss please understand we got your papers and you proved your point but that is it. Please don't start a he said she said fight. If you have some thing to say than prove it like you did with the docents showing the BD corruption. Otherwise please both of you shut up.

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    8. No 1 inparticularJuly 12, 2012 at 11:58 PM

      Sure don't know you and I really don't care who you are 1 thing I will say to you is did the mother hold back the child from the father if the answer that question is yes t?hen that my friend is the end of the story. Most of us don't care who is on whose side however we can easily see when a wrong has been done. I don't really care who is respected who is not respect ed.

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    9. You Cant Handle The TruthJuly 13, 2012 at 3:04 AM

      The two above sockpupet comments prove my points. Just saying something that isn't, is, doesn't make it so. Feel free to get a further response from me when you actually address the points I made.

      Delete
    10. No 1 inparticularJuly 13, 2012 at 1:39 PM

      i don't know what a sockpuppet is but it doesn't sound nice. anyway, i don't know wjat i am supposed to prove to you. rabbi vowlhandler says the wife stopped him from seeing his kids. you don't seem to argue with that. you seem fixated on these rabbis retraction and where this bais din stands in the world of honor. you don't prove any of your points but you demand others to prove theirs. i would call you a sockpuppet but i don't know what it is so i won't. the bais din that you say is well respected never heard the case. you say you have the real reason and weiss says he has his. no one has argued that the wife kidnapped the kid. no one. are you arguing with that and claiming it is not true? you are claiming the heter arkaos is the end of the story. it isn't. that is another story. she kidnapped the kid. kidnapped. sounds good, because that is what she did. that is the start and end of the story. i don't need your bais din. i don't need your rabbis. i don't need your 22 page packet. i want to know why you and everyone else out here isn't screaming about that. i want to know how a respected bais din got so involved about arkaos but ignored a crime of humanity. i want to know how rabbis signed on a paper that made a guy look like he did a bad thing while working out for his kid. you sound like those people who cry mossair mossair when some crazy is molesting their children. let's go to bais din and see what they say. don't go to the police. we will handle it within our community. this woman is one of those people. she is a kidnapper. you get my take. i don't care if weiss spit on the rabbis and smacked them in the head. if that was how he got his kid back i would applaud him and i think most people would do that as well. i don't care about weiss. i don't care about dodelson. i don't care about your bais did. i don't care about your rabbis. i don't care about your 22 page manifesto. i care how a woman can kidnap her kid and see all these people keep quiet. if you can prove she didn't do that - then do it. until then I will say she is wrong and we live in a world that is condoning this and we are wrong. so, whatever a sockpuppet is or isn't, i will wait for your proof that she didn't kidnap the kid. unitl then she will remain a kidnapper in mine and the world's eyes.

      Delete
    11. A sockpuppet means you are a spokesman for someone else.
      You make a good point. However, we need to follow Jewish Law. We can't get stuck in this secular environment and just call police or go.to court.
      I am also not a sockpuppet. I was on the dodleson side because I was told by RAMK that the weisses were 100% wrong and had no leg to stand on. I am sure if I met Mr. not dodleson on the street we would smile at each other because we know each other. I am sure of it. I think there are Weiss sockpuppets around and I think they're getting a little giddy with their response. They have proved nothing but the BD was corrupt. With that RAMK and the dodleson case went down the drain. It doesn't make the weisses right. However, wasting time trying to rehash the past is just wasting time. I think the kotlers will try to get help from Israel in solving this but the fiasco they caused due to their relying on the BD has ended poorly for them. I will still tell you both to shut up (not you I particular) but I will leave you with this. Nobody said the weisses were right or dodleson wrong or vice versa. The BD has been proven corrupt. Face it because its true. Weiss hasn't proven anything besides that. Have a happy life.

      Delete
  22. The reasons why it is ok to express an opinion that the gedolim made a mistake are the following 1.they wrote a ksav seruv without researching facts. 2. the even haezrah writes by the eigel that there are those that explain that the reason ahron joined the klal in making the eigel was because he was tricked (so his responsibility is limited, since he did not realize what they were doing) on this he writes that it’s a mistake because "if ahron was a fool (that he can be fooled like that) hashem would not have chosen him as a leader! This is the same exact case here, point being that even if this does not totally remove the rabbanim from their status, it at least shows us that if they were fooled it is their chisaron. This does not mean someone has a right to be mezalzel in them, but yes they do have a right to point out that they are mistaken.

    As far as the actual scandal, rabboseiy it is mind boggling how today the focus has become only on the women "tied in chains" correct this is a huge issue, but what happened to the MANY yungerleit that have had their children kidnapped from them based on false lies, I can at least testify firsthand to what happened (happens) in the rabbanut, (the women tried 3 times to get custody 1. to distance the father to protect herself. 2. She is a great care taker and the children need her desperately so she must be granted immediate custody. 3. After the first 2 did not work the father became a molester! He brought 5 letters testifying that he is clean AND THE WOMEN NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THE FATHER, RATHER SHE PUBLICLY PRAISED HIM FOR BEING SUCH A GOOD FATHER, and that the women herself expressed this to the rabbanim AFTER THE SEPRATION, this fell on deaf ears, not only that they left one boy in the fathers custody! How can they leave him with the father if he’s a molester??????)
    Why oh why is there no outcry to this terrible injustice where in a large % of divorces the women hold the children hostage, and the general outlook is “poor lady” it is a given that the husband is guilty until proven innocent, anyone with the most basic quest for truth that has basic knowledge of this must cry out loud gevalt!!!! It might be that 90% of men are molesters abusers etc., but how come this claim just developed at the time of divorce???! No a man does not have the right to hold his wife hostage, but does a women have a right to hold his children hostage?????????!
    As far as this specific case it seems very obvious that the weisses are right, but even if one would entertain a possibility not like that, there is a very simple way to settle this, the husband will give a get as long as there is joint custody and normal visitation rights! Can someone that represents the dodelsons prove that the husband would still not give a get??? NO NO NO, so until you can prove this you are wrong, you are kidnapping his child, and cloaking your kidnapping in the name of a agunah, shame on you, shame on you, this a disgrace to humanity. Please if ANYONE can disprove this last point we are all ears, step forward and prove it, if not stop your bullying, your nakedness will be revealed to all.

    May hashem bless us with the midah of emes even in time of desperation, and may the world learn to focus on both sides without bias.
    I assume most men would give gittin a lot quicker if these kidnapping games would stop. Let’s have someone truthful research the % of men that withhold gittin when the women are willing to settle with joint custody of the children. And one more point to all women in a divorce situation, you are not only hurting your ex-husband by kidnapping his kids, YOU ARE STEALING YOUR CHILDRENS FATHER, you are ruining your children with your own hands!!!

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    Replies
    1. do you think, sincerely, in your heart of hearts, that hashem approves of men holding back a get as a bargaining tool?

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    2. yes - why else is it up to the husband to give a get and only with his free will. remember yiddishkeit is not liberal - not necessarly fair - (eg: eved kenani) it's just the way it is -
      a woman who leaves and yells maus ali - i find him disguisting - is not entitled to anything but to sand get grey.

      Delete
  23. professional yenteJuly 13, 2012 at 6:44 AM

    I read this guy frieds stuff. Must say he must be either a clown or a member of the mafia. He writes what the bais din must do if Weiss doesn't follow through. On a side note, isn't Weiss father name yosef something? Who is this moshe meir he's talking about. Any I digress, since when does a lawyer tell a judge what to do. It also seems that he is just announcing himself as the borer in this letter. Where does he get off demanding anything immediately from Weiss? Also, I didn't know what this paper that he says is mezuyuf is. Seems to be something from the debreciner and I thought it was a hashgacha. Anyway seems to be a psak from the debreciner allowing a father to always go to arkaos if the mother steals the kids. Fried seems to have an issue on that. I guess I would too if I was the paid judge of the woman's side. Anyway, Weiss isn't only coming with that letter. He came with this teshuva written by a wohlhandler guy who i understand is not here anymore. So, I can't figure out what this guy fried is going bananas unless this isn't the first time he has gone dancing with this. Regardless, these machon horaah guys seem to have followed what this guy fried told them to do. That sounds more corrupt than what we thought it was until now. I thank you Mr you can't handle the truth to pointing that out. Anyway, I read these letters twice and I really can't see how any rabbi with half a brain wouldn't defect but hey I don't pay these guys salaries. But Mr I can't handle is telling me there is more out there. Bring it on Mr because I am enjoying myself reading this. After all, they took away my TV and won't let me use the internet. My wife is upstate and I need something to keep me going. After all daf yomi only lasts 45 minutes.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Been There Done ThatJuly 13, 2012 at 9:38 PM

    This is really entertaining. They should charge for this blog. Batei Dinim today ARE the big problem.
    Joke #1. They take Sechar Batalah of 200 dollars an hour per Dayan. I am not sure if halacha allows it or not, I would think it does if they are doing it. However, It's kinda like the guy who is collecting tzedaka and taking 49% for himself because there is a psak that it is permitted, and then going to the carribbean for a cruise twice a year with the "tzedaka" money he collected.

    Joke #2 Toanim. They also take money for their work. A few hundred an hour or something like that. It makes no difference. They are just as bad as the worst of divorce lawyers. They also serve as Dayanim for Zabla. Go figure. These same clowns are double billing as Toanim, and taking money for being yeah i said it "Dayanim". It is just a joke. It makes people look like tzaddikim just being mesarev these Batei Dinim.

    Takana #1 (sorry this takana allows you to spend as much of your own money on simchas)
    If the cities would have batei Dinim which didn't charge and would have talmidei chachamim who would not get involved in dinei torah where they knew the parties at all, It would give people more of a reason to actually go to Beis Din. People would respect Beis Din. The secular courts would have more respect for beis din, which would give more power to our torah and to Din Torah

    Joke # 3 Then comes the rabbonim signing letters. They hear one side and sign. It happens all the time. How a person can sign, let alone a Gadol when he hasn't heard both sides is beyong my imagination. How a Gadol can sign when he is friends with one side and not with the other, is beyong me. I personally have had gedolim sign letters about me. Gedolim who never have spoken one word to me. Gedolim who never sent any hazmana. Gedolim who called me all kinds of names and who suggested all kinds of things against me. But as the Navi Ovadia said Katan Vegadol sham hu. It refers to Gehenom for those who don't know.
    Advice for Gedolim:Kol me shaino yodea betuv gittin vekidushin al yehei eisek imahem. If you don't know the halachos of gitting and kiddushin well, stay away from them. Don't sign letters. Don't get involved. Don't become a broker. Don't take sides. And if you are taking sides, at least protect the weak from the strong. How wicked are those who get involved and protect the strong, the well protected, the well known families. May G-d punish the wicked who take advantage and hurt the poor with their words, with their signatures, with their actions.

    I am in no way speaking about anyone specific, None of those mentioned in anyway in the previous blogs. I am in no way speaking against the talmidei Chachamim. Just those who Yanai Malka was afraid of, Maaseihem Maase zimri Umevakshim Sechar Kepinchas

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  25. http://www.israel613.com/books/DIN-TORAH-SAMUEL-FREID-TYEN-RABUNI.pdf

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. no i have not personally verified the above document

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  26. I don't understand this back of forth. Is AMW using the get as a blackmail tactic or not?

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  27. Why won't he give his wife the get that she wants?? She does not want to be married to him! Everything else being discussed here is just water diluting the root of the problem. Oh and the kid always belongs to the mother first; it's in the kids best interest. I thought that was a no-brainer.

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    Replies
    1. It is not in the best interest of the kid to lose his father and in fact the boy does not always belong to the mother. See JLaw where various systems of custody arrangment are discussed

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    2. Having a good reason to do a terrible thing doesn't make it any less of a terrible thing and does not give a heter to do something wrong. The Torah defines the greater good not our brains. I think God knew that people getting divorced would have problems with who gets the kids but he still said to give a get in any scenario i.e. even when you think the mother would have a bad influence.

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    3. it is unfortunate when you make up your own Torah and declare that is what G-d wants. Please discuss the issue with a talmid chachom so you don't have to misrepresent halacha in the future

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  28. Every orthodox marriage requires a KETUBAH. A Ketubah is a marriage contract that is designed to protect the wife in the event of a divorce. To prevent situations like this in the future the Ketubah needs to be both written in Hebrew and  translated into a legal prenuptial agreement. The Ketubah was for thousands of years a legal document of the Jewish court (beit din)  that protected the woman in the event of divorce and always a large amount has been penned in so that the wife is protected. if this woman had a Prenup with a 100,000 coming to her in the event of a divorce the husband may have treated her differently and they may not have been in this situation. If there was no way to reconcile differences and a divorce is necessary then the woman has a large amount in the Prenup  for her and her child's future

    ReplyDelete

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