Maharal(Gevuros HaShem): Why didn’t Moshe marry a Jewish woman from birth with pedigree like Aaron? Don’t think like the fools that this just happened because that is mistakenly dismissing foundation principles. Therefore it is important to explain itdsf because this is one of the reasons that Moshe’s children were inferior to Aaron’s children. From here our Sages (Bava Basra 109b) learned that one should always attach oneself with a pedigreed family. If so what was the reason that he married a woman from another nation? This is truly a very great question but if you think about it intelligently you will realise it was not done for nothing but was for a extremely important issue. Firstly you should know that Moshe was equivalent to the entire Jewish people because he was in fact the completing factor for the entire Jewish people. That is why the Torah (Shemos 18:1) writes that Yisro… heard all that G‑d had done for Moshe and for Yisroel. We thus see that Moshe is equivalent to all the entire Jewish people… Therefore it makes no sense that he would marry a woman who is one of the 600, 000 Jews when Moshe was equal to the 600,000. In contrast gerim who are outside of the Jewish people and therefore are not included in the 600,000 are capable of matching Moshe. That is because Moshe was not included in the 600,000. Thus the soul of the convert if she merited was more appropriate for Moshe who transcended the Jewish people. It is important to understand this amazing thing. Consequently Moshe married a woman from a different people even though the Jewish people are the essence of the world and the other nations are merely additions and supplements. Thus gerim when they convert become additions to the Jewish people. This is the reason that Moshe married a giyorus.
That is quite amazing.
ReplyDeleteFurther to a previous discussion, In Vayikra 24; 11, RambaN writes that the son of Egyptian man/ Israelitish woman was NOT an Israelite with respect to Yichos of the flag, and in Goral of the land. The degel was the Biblical teudat Zehut - it was his membership of a Tribe. Similarly , he had no inheritance of the land.
This is a strongly patrilineal position.
There are other statements of Ramban , which are somewhere in Bamidbar, which I have to go through, and please G-d I will post them later.
"Eddie said...That is quite amazing."
ReplyDeleteActually, it's the second time Rabbi Eidensohn is re-posting this. See: Rav Kook zt"l - Supported Argentina ban on conversion - for welfare of Jews and non-Jews [April 30, 2008] PLEASE READ THE FULL DISCUSSIONS IN THAT THREAD and you can read my full objections there, which I re-affirm now as well (to your surprise Eddie, but I do subscribe to any "group=think")!
Eddie said...That is quite amazing.
ReplyDeleteFurther to a previous discussion, In Vayikra 24; 11, RambaN writes that the son of Egyptian man/ Israelitish woman was NOT an Israelite with respect to Yichos of the flag, and in Goral of the land. The degel was the Biblical teudat Zehut - it was his membership of a Tribe. Similarly , he had no inheritance of the land.
This is a strongly patrilineal position.
There are other statements of Ramban , which are somewhere in Bamidbar, which I have to go through, and please G-d I will post them later."
RaP: Eddie, don't lose yourself and keep your bearings. PRIOR to Matan Torah and during the TRANSITIONAL PERIOD from when Became the Twelve Tribes -- the Bnai Yisrael first went out of Egypt -- Received the First Mitzvot -- Received the Torah at Sinai -- Received More Mitzvot during 40 years in the Midbar -- there was a BRIDGE to be crossed from the time they were not OBLIGATE to keep the 613 Mitzvot to the time when they became OBLIGATED to follow the Torah and Torah She-Bela Peh fully. You seem to be quoting from and fixated upon comments of the sages relating to that TRANSITIONAL PERIOD!
Please do not forget the normative Halachic position , certainly for the last 2,500 years, among ALL of Orthodoxy until TODAY:
"From Torah.org:
http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=318
LifeCycle Events: Marriage and Sexuality: Matrilineal Descent:
What is the source of the law that a child is Jewish only if its mother is Jewish?
The statement that Jewish identity is determined by the mother is found in the Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12), which says that the child of a gentile woman is like her. The Talmud derives this from the passage in Deut. 7:3-4: "Do not intermarry with [him], do not give your daughter to his son or take his daughter for your son, for he will turn your son from Me": A child born to your daughter (fathered by a non-Jew) is called "your son", but a child born to your son (by a non-Jewish mother) is not called "your son", but "her son". The Talmud is assuming here that the "he" in Deut.7:4 is your gentile son-in-law, and that "your son" whom "he" will turn away from G-d is your grandson, born to him and to your daughter. The Torah calls that grandson "your son" because he is regarded as Jewish since he had a Jewish mother. In the other case, where a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, the Torah doesn't speak about the woman's influence on her children (i.e., it doesn't say "for she will turn your son from me"), because her children are non-Jewish to begin with since their mother is non-Jewish. Apparently we are more concerned about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse on the children than about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse's parents on their children-in-law. The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) asks how we know that these laws apply to any non-Jews, since the cited verse refers to the Canaanites. The answer given there is that "he will turn your son [away from Me]" implies that all those who might turn [sons] away are included in the prohibition."
Can you please translate the concept into more digestible English please?
ReplyDeleteThe Maharal always has remarkable insights. Great post.
ReplyDeleteRaP -
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting Torah Shb'al Peh was not given at Sinai, in conjunction with the Written Torah?
Your interpretation of the Ramban, and the Pasuk in the Torah is false.
a) The laws given here applied to the normative life in Eretz Yisrael. There were some transitory laws in the Midbar, such as man, however, your claim is self contradictory.
b) It is important to be honest rather than to buy into a preconceived conclusion, and then twist the Torah to fit your own view. So what you are suggesting is that the laws of inheriting the Land of Israel were only transitory for the time in the desert in Sinai? That isn't a very thoughtful view. Indeed, it is quite absurd!
The concept of "Jewish" is a relatively modern one, and certainly did not apply in the time Moses or Joshua. there 12 tribes, Yehuda was one, although perhaps the major one.
There were other tribes, who were fully accepting of the torah, but this patrilineal law was in force then.
I am not deriving any law for its application today. you seem to be afraid of reading the Torah, and prefer to see it a one of the commentaries on the Talmud, but an irrelevant one.
Perhaps you are confusing the Reform movement's patrilineal moves with what I am saying. Reform do not really accept the authority of the Torah. Their modern enactment is merely ot justify intermarriage of their members.
My argument is that the Torah itself (for which you should stand when you see it being carried) tells us there is a patrilineal Law, and this is how Ramban understands it.
The apparent contradiction with the Talmudic statement is a discussion on its own. The question of whether the is an actual contradiction is a very interesting one. But that is a larger scholarly project than is possible in a talkback here.
Another possible answer to Maharal's question (which I read once from a chassidic source). Every ger/gioret DOES have a good pedigree. In fact, they have the best possible pedigree -- their parents are Avraham Avinu and Sarah Imenu!
ReplyDelete1 of 3 from RaP to Eddie:
ReplyDelete"RaP -Are you suggesting Torah Shb'al Peh was not given at Sinai, in conjunction with the Written Torah?"
RaP: Firstly, it was ONLY the Aseres Hadibros that were given at Sinai! There were some Mitzvot that were given prior to Sinai (e.g. relating to kiddush hachodesh and Pesach) and there were was a constant flow of Mitzvot that were taught and given over the 40 year period in the Midbar right until sefer Devarim when Moshe Rabbeinu is about to die. In a certain "metaphysical" spiritual way the entirely of the Torah is "given" when Hashem says "Anochi Hashem..." with the prior "Naaseh Venishma" that Bnai Yisrael declare.
As for the Torah She-Beal Peh, of course it was "given" with each Mitzva that Moshe received from Hashem and taught to Yehoshua and the 70 Elders, but exactly what that was we cannot know, all that we can know is as it was handed down to us by the now "codified" Talmud and its own Oral sources and as finding final Halachic expression in the Shulchan Aruch, and none of them arrive at what *you* want them to "conclude" -- that "because" there are discussions among the sages on various issues, that "somehow or other" it's "a" or "the" "reason to now accept people whose fathers are 100% gentiles according to normative Halacha to somehow regard them as "Jews" because the Ramban may have had certain positions in the course of his perushim, in order to "justify" outright proselytization to goyim. You cannot use Chazal towards aims and goals that the Chazal would never in their wildest dreams imagine do themselves.
"Your interpretation of the Ramban, and the Pasuk in the Torah is false."
RaP: The Ramban, not matter what he learns, is not "legitimating" or giving a hechsher to the activities of Shavei Israel, as you are twisting him to imply. That much is clear. As a matter of fact, of all people the Ramban took on the apostate Pablo Christiani and fled Spain, itself and omen of the ultimate fate of Spanish Jewry. The Ramban did not in his debate that it's ok to become outwardly Christian and somehow or other 800 or 500 years later there will be a nice man like Michale Freund and guys like "Eddie" who will come along and try to come up with a "new Torah" to permit that which is forbidden mush like a Shabtai Tzvi tried to do and failed. Your attempt to grab the high ground as "defender of the Torah" is falling flat on its face as you dig yourself deeper into a hole and reveal your true motives of justifying the acceptance of people who are 100% gentiles into the the Halachic Jewish people.
"a) The laws given here applied to the normative life in Eretz Yisrael."
RaP: Like what? To accept people whose fathers are 100% goyim as Israelites and "Jews"?
2 of 3 from RaP to Eddie:
ReplyDelete"There were some transitory laws in the Midbar, such as man, however, your claim is self contradictory."
RaP: Untill the full 613 Mitzvot came into effect took at least 40 years of being in the Midbar and then the kibbush haareetz as they had to build a Bais Hamikdash and set up a Sanhedrin and apply all the Mitzvot, all this took hundreds of years at least until the time of Shlomo Hamelech. It is hard for us to understand what the Oral Law of 3,300 years ago demanded from our vantage point today. One thing is for sure. If you look at the subsequent Tanach records of the Shoftim, Nevi'im, Melachim and the rest, there is no acceptance of people whose fathers are gentiles as "full members" into Klal Yisrael. On the contrary, one sees how hard everyone fought to keep out and stay away from proselytization. Even Ruth, had to become a righteous convert, it was not enough that her husband was a Jew and that is in the times of the Judges yet! They were very much on guard to keep out people with patrilieneal and even only Jewish mothers that was regarded as a disgrace, such as what the Gemora says about the mother of Yeshu HaNotzri and that was already in the times of the Roman Occupation of Judea.
"b) It is important to be honest rather than to buy into a preconceived conclusion, and then twist the Torah to fit your own view. So what you are suggesting is that the laws of inheriting the Land of Israel were only transitory for the time in the desert in Sinai? That isn't a very thoughtful view. Indeed, it is quite absurd!"
RaP: Non sequitur and red herring! You are making this up and we are not discussing this.
"The concept of "Jewish" is a relatively modern one, and certainly did not apply in the time Moses or Joshua. there 12 tribes, Yehuda was one, although perhaps the major one."
RaP: To be a "Yehudi" on a national level starts from the time of Malchus Yehuda (Kingdom of Judah) when the nothern Malchus Yisrael (Kingdom of Israel) split away and that goes back about 2,800 years ago. Malchus Yehuda was re-established after Golus Bavel and it was already known as Judea, and its people were Judeans, aka Jews in modern English, to earliest Greeks and Romans at least 2,200 years ago! That's a long time ago!
"There were other tribes, who were fully accepting of the torah, but this patrilineal law was in force then."
RaP: What "other tribes"??? The only purpose of so-called "patrilineal law" is to re-enforce the primary matrilineal law, in the sense that no Jew should think that it's ok to just have a Jewish mother, it's also important and essential to have a Jewish father because it has significance, but one cannot "derive" a cockamamie "retroactive" "rule" or "principle" of any sort that "somehow or other" only having a Jewish father alone makes one "Jewish" or an "Israelite" because it does not, even the Ramban was not coming to change that as you are implying his words to be! This i sstill obvious and practiced today because while the religious status of a child is derived from ONLY the mother matrilineally, the tribal status, of being a Kohen, Levi, Yisrael or even Chalal (nebech), is STILL derived ONLY patrilineally from ONLY the father! So what are you carrying on about?! The Ramban was not saying more than this.
3 of 3 from RaP to Eddie:
ReplyDelete"I am not deriving any law for its application today."
RaP: Yes you are !!! You are conducting this discussion to defend the indefensible outlooks of Shavei Israel. You are very quick to find "defenses" for them while attacking anything that points to their controversial outlook.
"you seem to be afraid of reading the Torah,"
RaP: Funny!
"and prefer to see it a one of the commentaries on the Talmud, but an irrelevant one."
RaP: Utter rubbish!
"Perhaps you are confusing the Reform movement's patrilineal moves with what I am saying."
RaP: No, it is you that is in effect getting into bed with them. You have still not CLEARLY explained what it is YOU PROPOSE the Ramban says, it's context and what you imagine are its applications today, and why you feel the need to harp on it in the context of defending Shavei Israel
"Reform do not really accept the authority of the Torah. Their modern enactment is merely ot justify intermarriage of their members."
RaP: This may surprise you, but Reform is regarded as part of "Rabbinic Judaism" -- they are NOT Karaites. Their ideological differences are about how to interpret, apply and practice BOTH the Written AND the Oral Laws!
"My argument is that the Torah itself (for which you should stand when you see it being carried) tells us there is a patrilineal Law, and this is how Ramban understands it."
RaP You have still not spelled it exactly where and how and in detail. I am sure Rabbi Eidensohn would be glad to host a guest article/post from you outlining this position in full. I look forward to understand and analyzing your words. But so far you are just a jumble of words.
"The apparent contradiction with the Talmudic statement is a discussion on its own. The question of whether the is an actual contradiction is a very interesting one. But that is a larger scholarly project than is possible in a talkback here."
RaP: Huh? What "apparent contradiction with the Talmudic statement" ??? Are you implying that there is no difference, chas vesholom, between patrilineal and matrilineal descent as you clearly seem to be saying when you state "The question of whether the is an actual contradiction is a very interesting one." ??? And what "scholarly project" are you carrying on about, is it to equate patrilienal with matrilienal descent ??? Feel free to explain yourself, we have all the time and and space (on Blogger) in the world. Again, I am sure the blog-owner/host will be glad to oblige you with as much space as you need to explain yourself if you Email him with a well-researched lengthy response.
This seems to me to be a relatively "minor" issue. When i say relatively, it is in comparison to the idea that Joshua married Rahab, and that is considering her previous profession.
ReplyDeleteAny ideas on how that could happen?
"Eddie said...This seems to me to be a relatively "minor" issue."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Joshua was not on the level of Moshe. He was his underling who completed his mission, so perhaps there is a connection there. But you are seem to be taking it upon yourself to act as the judge, jury and executioner of passages in the Torah and think that no one is noticing the way you are twisting things around in what one could only term a "krum" and incriminating way as if they must answer to.
"When i say relatively, it is in comparison to the idea that Joshua married Rahab, and that is considering her previous profession."
RaP: You are comparing apples with oranges.
"Any ideas on how that could happen?"
RaP: She was a righteous woman and did teshuva, or alternately the description of "zonah" about her is not literal because she "fed" gave "mazon" to all people and then the spies as an inn-keeper. She was willing to feed strangers in the spirit of Avraham and Sarah who fed strangers. See the commentators who grapple with the issue and that explain and deal with this. Not sure what your problem is or if if you just want to make problems?
Rap,
ReplyDeleteYou are totally nuts!
You seem to think i am backing Shavei Yisrael .
Perhaps you can take your complaint ot r Karelitz who recognized the Chuetas that Shavei has worked with, as being Halachically Jewish.
You seem to have a very poor knowledge of the History of Israel; of the Tenach, and of logical argument.
You also have convenniently forgotten that I raised the patrilineal issue as a subject for discussion.
R ' Eidenshohn asked me for a reference to back my claims, and i gave one, finsihed. You are not really interested in anything other than slamming all conversions that conform to your own restricted viewpoint. I dont know who you are or what oyu stand for, but you obviously are not a scholar of Judaism, nor a qualified rav or Dayan who can make decisions for Israel (B'H).
"You are conducting this discussion to defend the indefensible outlooks of Shavei Israel. You are very quick to find "defenses" for them while attacking anything that points to their controversial outlook. "
Only an arrogant fool or lehavdil, a total Gaon could make such a sweeping statement.
the Torah clearly has a patrilineal stance. This is oncontrovertible.
Whether you are reform or new testament, I dont really care. You claim to be orthodox, and you simply repeat propaganda you picked up from one website or other.
It is ironic, that real Torah scholars deal with contradictions between various sources on a daily basis, yet they are not attacked for pointing out the simple fact that such contradictions do exist.
An example of one such scholar is RDE. I am not trying to flatter anybody, but he quote r Moshe Hagiz' view on the Zohar. That view, a dennialist view, was so controversial, that RDE only quoted the view in hebrew, so as not to casue a mass upsring amongst trigger happy kanoim.
It is quite useless to try havgin a reasoned discussion with Rap, since he has his own obvious agendam, a one issue agenda, and anything that might open his mind scares him of losing his self righteousness.
Your loss of realit is quite apaprent when you speak so crudely of Ramban, suggesting I am justifying Shavei views by bringing Ramban, You are obviously unable to learn or derive anythign independently, but you must have picked up your violence and anger in some nutcase Yeshiva where they use baseball bats agasint their rivals. Keep yoru brooklyn tactics to yourself.
On Rahab:
ReplyDeleteHere we have further evidence of Rap's mental instabilty and looking to throw insults and accusations , on a matter totally unconnected to his pet subject of conversion.
It is a perfectly valid question that I raise.
In asking a question, I am automatically " the judge, jury and executioner of passages in the Torah and think that no one is noticing the way you are twisting things around in what one could only term a "krum" and incriminating "
Rap probably didnt read or appreciate the Maharal. But then again,why should he?
Notice how Rap has not qualms at belittlign and insulting Joshua, even though he was to be obeyed to the same exact degree as Moses was.
This is the arrogance of Rap, who now will start a new crusade against me, and insult the Neviim and Rishonim who I cite.
1 of 2: RaP responds to Eddie's attacks:
ReplyDeleteEddie old chap, I am so sorry it has come to this, but it's now very obvious that you are now conducting classical Internet flaming (WP: "Flaming, also known as bashing, is hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users...It is frequently the result of the discussion of heated real-world issues such as politics, religion, and philosophy, or of issues that polarise subpopulations, but can also be provoked by seemingly trivial differences. Deliberate flaming, as opposed to flaming as a result of emotional discussions, is carried out by individuals known as flamers, who are specifically motivated to incite flaming. These users specialize in flaming and target specific aspects of a controversial conversation, and are usually more subtle than their counterparts..."
And, you are also now showing your true colors with your viciousness as a real Internet troll (WP: "...a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion...")
So now all the rabbonim in Jewish history on this planet can be somehow or other shown to "support" incurable ultra-MODERN Orthodox and fanatical zealot Religious ZIONIST Michael Freund's Shavei Israel the way you would imagine they do, thanks to Eddie's "profound" scholarship of twisting sources to meet his ends. Very nice? Bravo! You convince no one but those of your ideological ilk, and we are not even sure that you are a Jew from the way you attack and twist almost all serious Jewish concerns.
Eddie, it is tiring engaging you in these talks especially as you resort to most vile PERSONAL ATTACKS when I try to treat you with dignity. You are personalizing a valid critique of Shavei Israel and doing backwards somersaults and mental acrobatics to prove your ultra-liberal academically secular outlook on Chazal and you bash me left and right without sticking to the point of the discussions just adding on more and more layers of personal attacks to cover up for your own CONSTANT anti-Charedi bashing for which you're infamous on this blog.
Of course, no doubt, you will come with even more personal attacks to counter this. Just stop it will you and act like the mentsch you claim to be and not like a wild animal lashing and biting out blindly at ghosts online.
So feel free to throw all the vicious insults that you want to. No one can help that. Deep and degrading personal attacks on a debating partner are not the way to go. You can feel free to point out errors of fact and logic and knowledge.
2 of 2: RaP responds to Eddie's attacks:
ReplyDeleteI have never said that I am anything more than a BLOGGER, and so are you, even though you imagine yourself able to project and interpret the views of any pesukim, meforshim, chazal, dayanim, poskim, rabbonim and roshei yeshiva whom, by your own words, you have a very low regard if not outright hostility and disdain for, as is obvious to anyone who has been following your comments and methods on this blog.
What do you have against not just Brooklyn yeshivas but any yeshivas??? Come clean Eddie, you are a typical self-hating Jew at best or a non-Jewish poster acting as a charlatan so-called "scholar" when all you do is sit around here and wait for an opportunity to attack Rabbi Eidensohn's words whom you now very hypocritically "praise" when you can never find anything good to say to him or in support of his words.
Something is wrong Eddie and it's not with me, I have been on this blog for over 4+ years and I have had a good record!
When this blog was probing EJF and Tropper, and Guma Aguiar and Michael Hersh, and I was involved in posts about those very toufg characters, there were the same kind of things said said by their defenders and personal attacks were leveled against me (Hersh even went to court and was knocked down) rather than focusing on discussions of issues, and guess what happened? Tropper and EJF, Guma Aguiar and Michael Hersh went down and both Rabbi Eidensohn and little me the BLOGGER "RaP" were proven 1001% correct!!! -- and so are Michael Freund and Shavei Israel headed for the rubbish bin sooner than later, while you can feel free to figuratively stomp your little feet, hurl uncalled for invective from mouth that needs to be washed out with soap, and have infantile tantrums like a two year old who's not getting his way. Guess what Eddie, you and your ilk are all megaleh ponim baTorah shelo keHalacha, look it up and get that through your head/s!!!
To you a Ramban or anything else mentioned in the Torah is just a tool for your own outlook, the very thing you accuse me of. I have tried to respect you but you only return my efforts with venom, which makes me think more and more that you are only on this blog as a Flamer and Troll with your own deeply modernistic virtually goyisha Haskala-oriented agenda!!
Your comment about "baseball bats" just shows how vicious, ruthless and stupid you are. You would make the Ramban, Rav Elyashiv and anyone else based on your readings serve as "imprimaturs" for *your* interpretations and applications of them when there is nothing to suggest that they would do what you sneakily imply they would dare to do.
You fail and in fact I have concluded are INCAPABLE of recognizing and knowing the difference between havei aminas and sevoras among the Chazal versus practical pesak and halacha lema'aseh of Torah and Mitzvot as they are and have been implemented and practiced by Orthodox Jewry.
Mr Rap,
ReplyDeleteYour attacks have been false and vindictive.
There ae at anytime a number of blogs on here.
I am entitled to voice my opinion, and to bring arguments, whether or not u approve of or agree with them.
In the case of Ramban, the post was not even addressing you. I mentioned previously that there is atorah source for Patrilineal descent. RDE asked me to provide that, and that is all i did.
This source yo can debate all u like, but it doesnt mean i am the CEO of shavei. Its funny u accuse me of a bunch of things with no evidence... I canot take you seriously. I can take authentic sources seriously, but not the abus that you have been posting.
This post was about Rahab of all people, yet you chose to make it another casue for your anger and abuse, totally unconnected to the post.
I respectfulyl suggest that we end any furhter discussion, or persoanl attacks / communications, since it is not constructive, and it is beocme a public Hillul Hashem.
one final comment in defence of the loshon hara pointed at me:
ReplyDeleteI am accused of "hating Judaism". Perhaps the types that end up in reports posted on this and other blogs I do hate.
It is rather disingenous to accuse someone of quoting the Torah and a mainstream commentator of hating Judaism!
RaP: If your main issue were to protect Gerim against abusive organisations and Rabbis like Tropper and others, I would be totally on your side and highly commend you.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, this is not your point. Nor is it Mr. Eidensohn's.
Your point is to "protect klall Israel against Gerim". And as such, both of you have expressed Gerophobic views, (in the sense of Xenophobic) that hurt many honest Gerim.
And this is something I have no sympathies for. Furthermore it is prohibited by an Issur mideOraita (which you do not care about)
2 of 2: RaP to 6ft:
ReplyDelete*"Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz [May 4, 2008].
*A more realistic understanding of the conversion crisis [May 4, 2008].
*Contrary to some rabbis - a conversion can be declared invalid I [May 5, 2008].
*Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling - full text [May 5, 2008].
*Conversion crisis is conflict between Zionism and Halacha I [May 6, 2008].
and in many more posts and discussions like this etc, etc, etc!!!
"Unfortunately, this is not your point. Nor is it Mr. Eidensohn's."
RaP: Utter nonsense, and all you have to do is just READ the older discussions that PROVES you are either ignorant or a liar.
"Your point is to "protect klall Israel against Gerim"."
RaP: Utter nonsense again and you are making up what you assume I "believe" and then expect me to work from your premise, which is logically absurd! My point and that of Rabbi Eidensohn is VERY clear, that while conversions conducted through established Orthodox batei din in the traditional one by one or case by case basis are Halachically valid, it is NOT acceptable to conduct mass PROSELYTIZATION campaigns to convince huge numbers of gentiles to become Jews. That much should be obvious by now!
"And as such, both of you have expressed Gerophobic views, (in the sense of Xenophobic) that hurt many honest Gerim."
RaP: Now that is new word "Gerophobic" that smacks of the wish to make it "politically correct" to accept not just genuine geirei tzedek (righteous converts) but to ALSO legitimate mass PR campaigns and recruitment drives by the likes of Shavei Israel and the now-defunct disgraced EJF to PROSELYTIZE to millions of gentiles and try to make them into "Jews" and they will fail because it cannot be as Jewish and world history have proven, period.
"And this is something I have no sympathies for. Furthermore it is prohibited by an Issur mideOraita (which you do not care about)"
RaP: Lies and slander, and all you have to do is READ the heavy disputes I have had to protect the rights and opinions of the relatively more lenient batei din, such as of the Israeli Rabbanut and the American RCA, so you owe me an apology.
I think we are crystallising the point on which we disagree.
ReplyDeleteAs an introduction, I want to say that I have no particular sympathy neither for Freund or Tropper or Guma Aguiar or whoever. I am only talking about the way you speak of honest Gerim who went through these institutions in good faith.
As far as I understand, people coming from Mitzoram or China or Poland through Freund's organisation underwent a Giur (or Giur lechumra) in a proper way: First, they spend a long time learning torah, dinim, tfilot and putting them into practice. In other words: they were ready to turn their life upside down. Then they underwent a proper Giur with the Rabbanut.
In my book, they are genuine Gerim.
If I am missing information, please supply it. But your comments never supplied genuine facts about the Giurim, they just went rambling on and on about how you should not proselytise.
Now I think that this question is far from clear cut in the context of "lost jews". It is a fact that jews were lost through history, they certainly do have descendents in maternal line, some can prove it, others can't. In some cases the descendence may be rather far fetched, in other cases it is more obvious.
Only a small minority of those descendents are even interested in embracing a complicated lifestyle like orthodox judaism. But some are, for whatever reason. I think you have no business denigrating and mocking those persons.
But you do! Perhaps you are not even aware of it.
And no, I will not go back through pages and pages of RaP's prose strewn through a number of threads in order to prove my point. Back when they were published, several people pointed out that some remarks from either RaP or Mr. Eidensohn were inappropriate and hurtful, that should be enough.
Typo: "Please read ALL the full debates and discussions in each thread and my objections to an approach that OPPOSES the relatively lenient approach to geirus:"
ReplyDeleteyou mocked and made condescendent remarks on chinese of jewish origin who underwent Giur (lechumra), central americans of jewish origin who underwent Giur, Poles of Jewish origin who intend to go back to their origins etc, etc.
ReplyDelete1 of 3: RaP responds to 6ft's criticism:
ReplyDelete"6ft said...I think we are crystallising the point on which we disagree."
RaP: And as we shall see, as usual, it will be a straw man argument (that I am somehow "not nice" to genuine geirim) of YOUR creation that I never made or meant, that you will then expect me to "defend" when it is not my aim or intention.
"As an introduction, I want to say that I have no particular sympathy neither for Freund or Tropper or Guma Aguiar or whoever. I am only talking about the way you speak of honest Gerim who went through these institutions in good faith."
RaP: Whatever I have said is not aimed or meant about genuine geirei tzedek. But you are being disingenuous by, on the one hand, saying that you both like and don't like what EJF and Shavei Israel have done. Yes, they did help some sincere gentiles get genuine conversions. But that has not been the criticism of them. What has been the criticism of them from this blog, are the METHODS and GOALS of both EJF and Shavei to PROSELYTIZE. Sure, what's done is done, and at no time have I questioned the validity of conversions that have been granted by Orthodox batei din, even the relatively more lenient ones. So you are twisting my words, worthy of a lawyer, and again, you expect me to "defend" myself against something I obviously was not referring to.
"As far as I understand, people coming from Mitzoram or China or Poland through Freund's organisation underwent a Giur (or Giur lechumra) in a proper way: First, they spend a long time learning torah, dinim, tfilot and putting them into practice. In other words: they were ready to turn their life upside down. Then they underwent a proper Giur with the Rabbanut."
RaP: Yes, and I never questioned the conversions already done by reliable batei din, nor did I call for the abrogation of any genuine geirim's conversions, so again, don't twist my words.
The point of pointing out all those campaigns by Freund and Shavei Israel, from their own website yet, is how far and ambitious Freund's and Shavei Israel's GLOBAL goals truly are such that they actually do aim and Freund states it in various articles that his goal is to reach out to TENS OF MILLIONS of gentiles, that is nothing but pure PROSELYTIZION, no matter how much you are trying to dance around it, or re-focus the discussion by putting words in my mouth that I never said or meant, and thus covering the real concerns of how Freund plans to flood the Jewish people with tens of millions of gentiles who he plans to bring to Israel in fulfillment of some delusional ZIONIST vision, and it's all on his website, from what he has done, is doing, and would like to do.
We should daven to H"KBH that he is not granted the funds to carry out his dangerous self-appointed ZIONIST missionary mission, there are enough secular and Reform and Conservative Halachic Jews to save through good kiruv without looking under every jungle overgrowth for more tribes to convert.
2 of 3: RaP responds to 6ft's criticism:
ReplyDelete"In my book, they are genuine Gerim.
RaP: They are not the point of the discussion. Shavei Israel's PROSELYTIZATION is!
"If I am missing information, please supply it."
RaP: What "information"? I have not questioned valid conversions granted by legitimate batei din. Again, don't you see how you are setting up your own straw man argument and then expect to "defend" something I never said or meant. So sorry, tough luck, but no cigar.
"But your comments never supplied genuine facts about the Giurim, they just went rambling on and on about how you should not proselytise."
RaP: My concern is not to question the batei din. Freund and Shavei Israel are the problem, not the batei din. And Freund is very careful not to flood the batei din -- he is a far better diplomat and strategist than Tropper -- he has high class degrees and experience in government and governing and he is more disciplined and almost ascetic compared to the manic Tropper. He is shrewd, he chooses a few good candidates who are genuine and of course no one questions their integrity and the validity of their ultimate conversions. But that is only a small part of the over-all picture here that you are very conveniently forgetting for your own ends -- the REAL and ONLY problem and concern is the mass PR and PROSELYTIZATION that Shavei Israel is conducting to any group of gentiles with the vaguest connections to Jews or Judaism and get the ball rolling, starting a long-process INTERNATIONAL conversion mill to get them converted and bring them to Israel or the other way around (can't wait till he gets his hands on all the mixed up up American Reform and Conservative Jews), because for Freund bringing more bodies to Israel is what counts in his ZIONIST enterprise, they are needed as counters to the huge amount of Arabs that he is always writing about in other papers as a journalist.
"Now I think that this question is far from clear cut in the context of "lost jews". It is a fact that jews were lost through history, they certainly do have descendents in maternal line, some can prove it, others can't. In some cases the descendence may be rather far fetched, in other cases it is more obvious."
RaP: "Lost Jews" is a delicate term and is being abused by many today. Yes, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, consisting of the Ten Tribes (Shevatim) that were conquered by the Assyrians under Sancheriv about 2,800 years ago, are truly lost. Sancheriv was so effective at what he did that all the world's nations that he conquered became irreversibly jumbled up as he switched populations after he conquered opposing nations.
The Ten Tribes that he sent into exile across the globe are a subject of discussion among the classical sources. But there is definitely no consensus from major recognized rabbonim to do what Michael Freund has set out to do with Shavei Israel. He would need a long list of rabbis and poskim to sign a heter to go out into the world and dredge up tens of millions of gentiles.
No one can know who comes from a Jewish mother or not. That is also a red herring. Potentially ANY gentile could come from a Jewish "matrilineal line" -- but no one can say for sure so they remain gentiles, period. That is why it is a job for the Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi to sort all this out, as the RAMBAM clearly states.
3 of 3: RaP responds to 6ft's criticism:
ReplyDelete"Only a small minority of those descendents are even interested in embracing a complicated lifestyle like orthodox judaism. But some are, for whatever reason. I think you have no business denigrating and mocking those persons."
RaP: Shavei Israel reaches out to all of them and beyond and you know it. Just because a few will in the end become accepted as candidates by reliable batei din as a fait accompli, does not provide any sort of "retroactive heter" to undertake the mass PROSELYTIZATION in the first place. It becomes virtually a "mitzva haba'a be'aveira" -- a kind of "Robin Hood theory" that it's ok to "rob" some people so that others may "benefit" it just does not hold water in Jewish or any law and there is no justification for such things, no matter how nice Robin Hood or Michael Freund and Leib Tropper are being to the people that they do genuinely help in the end, but that overlooks the broader strategic picture of PROSELYTIZAION in the service of ZIONISM which is the ONLY thing that concerns us!
"But you do! Perhaps you are not even aware of it."
RaP: Only in your mind, because you truncate the picture and make it seem that way, when genuine conversions is not the subject of the discussions, while mass PROSELYTIZATION is!
"And no, I will not go back through pages and pages of RaP's prose strewn through a number of threads in order to prove my point."
RaP: "Prove your point" about what? I am following your words very closely and you are being tricky and dishonest. If you would bother you would see that I have SUPPORTED the conversions granted by even the most relatively lenient batei din, unlike others in the past, and I took heat for it. That is the point I made then and re-affirm it now, so I am not "Gerophobic" in any way. Stop putting words in my mouth, and we can then have a more constructive dialogue.
"Back when they were published, several people pointed out that some remarks from either RaP or Mr. Eidensohn were inappropriate and hurtful, that should be enough."
RaP" Hurtful to who? Leib Tropper??? Say what you mean, and mean what you say.
"6ft said...you mocked and made condescendent remarks on chinese of jewish origin who underwent Giur (lechumra), central americans of jewish origin who underwent Giur, Poles of Jewish origin who intend to go back to their origins etc, etc."
RaP: Nope, that is just the way you are spinning it. Good luck to all the nice geirim who have managed to get certificates of conversion (shetar geirus) from legitimate batei din.
That does not concern me.
Although there have been rulings that have knocked out lenient conversions such as when the beit din of Rav Sherman cancelled the conversions done by the beit din of Rav Drukman, and I said exactly what you say here, that as far as conversions go, there must have been at least some good and genuine conversions.
But again, that's not the issue of the present round of posts and discussions that are trying to delve and open up more scrutiny about Shavei Israel's long term and more far-reaching PROSELYTIZATION aims that should concern every serious Torah Jew as to its potentially disastrous consequences for the Jewish people as has been proven with the wholesale allowance of bringing over by the ZIONIST Jewish Agency of 300,000 gentiles from the former USSR who are not Halachic Jews something that Michael Freund wants to multiply by infinite numbers in his delusional aim of swelling the ranks of the Jewish people that don't need such "favors" through mass PROSELYTIZATION as part of a mis-informed ZIONIST grand-vision that seeks to usurp Halacha for its own geo-political ends.
Thank you for stating without ambiguity that you consider the persons who converted or retreived their jewish origins through Freund's organisation genuine, sincere Gerim and that you are not questionning their Giurim.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, I do not understand why they deserve your scorn as in "Good luck to all the nice geirim who have managed to get certificates of conversion (shetar geirus) from legitimate batei din." and many other places where you did not just speak out against Freund, but against the people whose conversion he facilitated. (as in the examples I mentionned in my last post.
I think you can in good faith think that Freund's efforts are superfluous, you can in good faith point out that some links to judaism are quite shaky (although you would have to delve into the details of the question), you can in good faith critised Freund's "Zionist project" to settle those hapless indians, south americans or chinese in the occupied territories.
What I cannot accept is the scorn you heap upon those who went through the organisation and who underwent a sincere Giur (lechumra), as you stated yourself.
In all your comments, there is not one word of sympathy for those Gerim or persons retrieving their jewish descent.
You say, without any kind of nuance: "We don't need you, stay where you are. I and Israel do not want you, even though Freund pretends otherwise. I consider you a huge danger for Israel."
Can you imagine how hurtfull this is to someone who turned his life upside down, to return to the religion of his mothers in good faith?
You go on and on rambling how this sincere Gerim (as you stated yourself) just want to rip off the state of Israel.
Can you imagine how hurtfull this is to someone who lost their jobs to keep shabbat, who was rejected by their family to keep kashrut, who never took a red penny from the state of Israel?
You are so self-contradictory. On the one hand, you aknowledge that so far, only sincere and trustwordy candidates were granted a Giur (or Giur lechumra) and that they went through a legitimate beith din. Yet you fear that tomorrow, Israel will be submerged by tens of millions of strangers...
I think you blow Freund's organisation way out of proportion. It might be Freund's dream to bring Millions of lost tribes back to judaism, but the reality seems to be much more modest. Try to find out how many members the "return to judaism" communities in those countries have. Try to find out how many are really ready to stick to it. I think you will not even find a few thousands.
I think that in the particular case of Shavei Israel, they really try to stick to halach: those who can prove their jewish descent in maternal line still have to do a Giur lechumra - which is as stringent as a regular Giur, the others undergo a regular Giur, but they all have to take on Ol Torah u Mitzwoth.
Up to now, as you state yourself, the bathey Din dealing with these cases were quite stringent. This is why I cannot really understand your fears.
I know that dogs who are afraid tend to bark loudly, but there is no reason to bark at Olim from Mitzoram or Poland.
"mass PROSELYTIZATION as part of a mis-informed ZIONIST grand-vision that seeks to usurp Halacha for its own geo-political ends."
ReplyDelete~~~~~~~
That is a pretty standard Haredi attitude towards Zionism, whether secular, traditional, or religious.
It is wrong for a number of reasons.
It was actually Haredi anti-zionism that was informed, and they believed their oppostion to it would save their existence in Galus.
Saving of Jewish lives is a mitzvah. Is it suggested by this attitude that you can allow jews to disappear, becasue in the process some of the community might be non Jewish?
Haredi Batei Din do "proselitysation" as bread and butter, they just dont publicise it. Many intermarrieds end up converting the whole family in haredi Botei Din. It is the same principle as EJF, without the seminars, the money, and the scandal.
Its interesting that when tempers flared, Rap denied being anti Zionist, yet he now calls it as a misguided global vision, which is a watered version of how the Palestinians and Iranians describe it.
The return of the lost Tribes is a prophetic vision, and is not contrary to Torah. Where we might agree is that not every Tom, Dick and Harry who claims to be a lost tribe is a genuine one. In this case, freund is misguided, and I never supported that aspect of his work.
1 of 3 by RaP to 6ft's latest:
ReplyDelete"6 ft said...You say, without any kind of nuance: "We don't need you, stay where you are. I and Israel do not want you, even though Freund pretends otherwise. I consider you a huge danger for Israel." "
RaP: Nope, those are YOUR words and not mine, as you yet again create cases and words that I never stated or meant and then you expect me to "defend" or "repudiate" them. Where did you learn such form of argumentation? it's called setting up a Straw man: "[WP]: A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To 'attack a straw man' is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the 'straw man'), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position..." TAKE NOTE, I am on to you!!!
The batei din of Israel will in good time deal with all issues relating to all geirei tzedek, HOWEVER that in itself is NOT a "green light" or "heter" of any sort for Freund, Tropper or anyone else to go out and recruit and PROSELYTIZE tens of millions of gentiles to then come to Israel. Just because a few geirim make it in the end, or better yet, just because a few gentiles make it to become genuine geirim, that is NO reason and it does not mean that Freund or Tropper or anyone else is now free to create a factory line giur mill from all ends of the Earth in false messianic fashion.
"Can you imagine how hurtfull this is to someone who turned his life upside down, to return to the religion of his mothers in good faith?"
RaP: What rubbish are you speaking?! These people all start out as GENTILES, or have you missed that point? Some then undergo successful conversions. Good for them. But it was NOT "the religion of his mothers in good faith" because the mother is regarded as a GENTILE, she cannot prove and no one knows who or what her origins are beyond some vague general history. Do not subtly push words in the direction that suits you. I am paying careful attention to what you are saying.
2 of 3 by RaP to 6ft's latest:
ReplyDelete"You go on and on rambling how this sincere Gerim (as you stated yourself) just want to rip off the state of Israel."
RaP: I am not "rambling" and I am taking the time to answer comprehensively and not in sound bites and not in manipulative phrasing as you do all the time. And again, the concern is not about genuine geirim, the concern is about Freund and Shavei Israel going out and doing PR and trying to recruit tens of millions of gentiles by PROSELYTIZING to them to then have them come over to Israel and flood the batei din with even more problems that they do not need.
"Can you imagine how hurtfull this is to someone who lost their jobs to keep shabbat, who was rejected by their family to keep kashrut, who never took a red penny from the state of Israel?"
RaP: What nonsense. A gentile before he converts is forbidden to keep Shabbat or to practice Kashrut. No one was talking about taking money from Israel (again a straw man from you) the problem is bringing tens of millions of gentiles with very washed out links to Jews or Judaism to Israel by means of PROSELYTIZATION to them, when no one has ordered this and no one require this. Not the Israeli government and not any known rabbinates, only the likes of Michael Freund or Leib Tropper.
"You are so self-contradictory. On the one hand, you aknowledge that so far, only sincere and trustwordy candidates were granted a Giur (or Giur lechumra) and that they went through a legitimate beith din. Yet you fear that tomorrow, Israel will be submerged by tens of millions of strangers..."
RaP: No, it's not a contradiction at all because genuine conversions and mass PROSELYTIZAIONS are two different things. Just because some conversions are legit, as it was with EJF, does not mean there is somehow a green signal for Shavei Israel or EJF to have a PROSELYTIZAION agenda to gentiles.
"I think you blow Freund's organisation way out of proportion."
RaP: Really?!
"It might be Freund's dream to bring Millions of lost tribes back to judaism, but the reality seems to be much more modest."
RaP: Freund's "dream" is actually a nightmare for the Jewish people! That's because it's only the start. It was the same with Soviet Jewry years ago. In the beginning it was only about a few "refuseniks" that wanted to leave, in the end it turned into a mass exodus that also brought out over 300,000 gentiles from the former USSR in its trail, an ongoing catastrophe!!! Or do you miss that point??!! Where is your foresight or insight for someone so smart???
3 of 3 by RaP to 6ft's latest:
ReplyDelete"Try to find out how many members the "return to judaism" communities in those countries have. Try to find out how many are really ready to stick to it. I think you will not even find a few thousands."
RaP: There is no need to do any of this because there are enough secular and Reform and Conservative Jews with known Halachic standing right near to where any of us live that need to be reached out to first before running to the jungles and deserts and mountains to look for the most borderline of borderline people. You know some say the Japanese are also from the Ten Lost Tribes, and the British, and the Mormons, and who knows what amount of crazy possibilities are out there and you can count on Freund to find ways to rope all of them in.
"I think that in the particular case of Shavei Israel, they really try to stick to halach:"
RaP: Really?! Like a menuval birshus HaTorah no doubt!
"those who can prove their jewish descent in maternal line still have to do a Giur lechumra - which is as stringent as a regular Giur,"
RaP: Read your won contradictory words: If anyone can "prove" that they are "Jewish" on their maternal line, then they do NOT need a conversion. Therefore it means, that they cannot "prove" anything or that their so-called "proof" is nothing but a figment of their imagination. Get real.
"the others undergo a regular Giur, but they all have to take on Ol Torah u Mitzwoth."
RaP: Ok, but that is already when a conversion is at the point of facing the beis din, and that is not the concern about Shavei Israel's PROSELYTIZATION agenda which is an entirely different matter.
"Up to now, as you state yourself, the bathey Din dealing with these cases were quite stringent. This is why I cannot really understand your fears."
RaP: The batei din do not have time to surf the web and track Freund and read his interviews, so Freund gets away with murder on his PROSELYTIZATION to millions of gentiles agenda.
"I know that dogs who are afraid tend to bark loudly,"
RaP: I am not a dog. Take that back you swine.
"but there is no reason to bark at Olim from Mitzoram or Poland."
RaP: The issue is not about genuine "olim" and gentiles in the jungles or mountains dreaming of life in Israel are not "olim" as you well know. The issue is the crass mass PROSELYTIZATION by Shavei Israel to millions of gentiles that hopes to eventually bring them to Israel in an ABUSE and DISTORTION of the right of HALACHIC Jews to return to Israel that only in modern times has been abused to allow even those with the vaguest and silliest so-called "claims" to be "Jews" or "Jewish" which Shavei Israel calls gentiles BEFORE they convert, all the way TO Israel, in contravention of the opposition to PROSELYTIZATION by Orthodox Judaism.
One of Two: From Rap To Eddie:
ReplyDeleteEddie said..."mass PROSELYTIZATION as part of a mis-informed ZIONIST grand-vision that seeks to usurp Halacha for its own geo-political ends."~~~~~~~That is a pretty standard Haredi attitude towards Zionism, whether secular, traditional, or religious."
RaP: Umm Eddie, even pure bred Zionists criticize Zionism. The Socialist Zionists hate/d the Revisionist Zionists, and the Religious Zionists scorn the secular Zionists, while many Charedim who do no ascribe to secular Zionism cooperate with it in the Knesset. So try to be specific and do not let your personal vendetta against all Charedim to blind you too much.
"It is wrong for a number of reasons. It was actually Haredi anti-zionism that was informed, and they believed their oppostion to it would save their existence in Galus."
RaP: What are you carrying on about? If not for the Charedi world of Torah Jewry there would not be any Torah or Jewry!
"Saving of Jewish lives is a mitzvah."
RaP: Indeed. But saving the "SOULS" of gentiles who claim to be "Jewish" but are provably gentiles is not the job of any Jews.
"Is it suggested by this attitude that you can allow jews to disappear, because in the process some of the community might be non Jewish?"
RaP: The discussion is not about known provable Halachic Jews. Shavei Israel targets ONLY known gentiles that it then conveniently relabels as "Jews" or "Jewish" way before they have been converted or even educated.
"Haredi Batei Din do "proselitysation" as bread and butter,"
RaP: NO, they do NOT! While their doors are open and they accept applications, NOT too many converts come to them. You are saying that the batei din are meaningless and corrupt by claiming they act for "bread and butter" which is a slander. Don't you ever have anything nice to say about Torah Judaism and its people and institutions?
"they just dont publicise it. Many intermarrieds end up converting the whole family in haredi Botei Din. It is the same principle as EJF, without the seminars, the money, and the scandal."
RaP: Utter bull! Can you name these batei din please???
"Its interesting that when tempers flared,"
RaP: It was only YOUR temper that flared, and then some, showing your true unbalanced colors unfortunately.
Two of Two: From Rap To Eddie:
ReplyDelete"Rap denied being anti Zionist, yet he now calls it as a misguided global vision, which is a watered version of how the Palestinians and Iranians describe it."
RaP: I am not not "anti Zionist" but I do PROTEST the misuse and abuses of a type of "ZIONISM" that wishes to admit even GENTILES to Israel just because they fit into Israel's geo-political needs as they did with admitting the over 300,000 proven known gentiles from the former USSR which they could just as easily told to stay put in the old USSR as many are still there!!! Even the most devoted classical Zionists criticized that while the "new" POST-Zionists wish to make themselves and their agenda the new "true" but very false "Zionism" -- so to once again drag in the blood libel that anyone who criticizes distorted Zionism "is a watered version of how the Palestinians and Iranians describe it" is utter nonsense and a lie to accuse one's debating partner of being an accessory to killers and murderers of Jews is totally moronic and insane.
"The return of the lost Tribes is a prophetic vision, and is not contrary to Torah."
RaP: It is disputed even according to the Torah commentaries, and you know it. Some say yes and some say no, it's not clear at all. But the job, if it were done, would be done by the Messiah and Elijah and Freund is neither.
"Where we might agree is that not every Tom, Dick and Harry who claims to be a lost tribe is a genuine one."
RaP: None of them are, because they are all in the status of GENTILES. That is not rocket science it's a fact.
"In this case, freund is misguided,"
RaP: Thank you, finally we agree on something. He is not just "misguided" he is dangerous.
"and I never supported that aspect of his work."
RaP: It is the only work he does, besides cozying up to Messianic Christian groups and writing pro-Zionist articles.
I can only answer some of Rap's Greatest Hits:
ReplyDeleteRaP: What are you carrying on about? If not for the Charedi world of Torah Jewry there would not be any Torah or Jewry!
Ed: G-d forbid that I or anyone should refer to all frum Yidden as one single Haredi Unit. Just like rap mentions, there are different Zionists so there are different haredi strands.
It was precisely because of some BUT NOT ALL charedi groups, that there were many victims of the Shoah, who migh have escaped Europe, had their misguided leaders not forbidden them to. Out of Kavod for some of the great Roshei Yeshiva, I will nto go into detail, but this absolute failure has been documented by several writers, including Lawrence Kaplan.
RaP: Indeed. But saving the "SOULS" of gentiles who claim to be "Jewish" but are provably gentiles is not the job of any Jews.
Ed: Look mate, you are not Eliyahu either, so its not for you to say who is a gentile, since you are not Judge, Kohen or Prophet to determine that.
RaP: The discussion is not about known provable Halachic Jews. Shavei Israel targets ONLY known gentiles that it then conveniently relabels as "Jews" or "Jewish" way before they have been converted or even educated.
Ed: FAlse. The Chuetas were recognised as Jews by R' Karelitz.
You sidestepped the fact that some of these communities are Jews, but we need to determine which ones. you have not shown any knowledge on how to deal with thi issue other than spurting out your standard lines about Shavei missions Inc.
RaP: NO, they do NOT! While their doors are open and they accept applications, NOT too many converts come to them. You are saying that the batei din are meaningless and corrupt by claiming they act for "bread and butter" which is a slander. Don't you ever have anything nice to say about Torah Judaism and its people and institutions?
Ed: If you do kiruv, u will get intermarrieds. Thsi often invovles frumming up the Jew, and converting the Goya, and their children. BY your own definition it is prosel.
More onRap:
ReplyDeleteRaP: It is disputed [Shavei Yisrael] even according to the Torah commentaries, and you know it. Some say yes and some say no, it's not clear at all. But the job, if it were done, would be done by the Messiah and Elijah and Freund is neither.
~~~~~
It is disputed by some Rabbinic authorities, but it is still predicted by Neviim. The fact that you accept that some rabbis still hold by it, is sufficient that it can and will happen.
Your argument is essentially boiling down to activism vs. quietism. Quite apart from the secular and sometimes anti Torah nature of Zionism, there was and remains Hareid opposition to Activism, vs quietism. Hence, the fanatic rabbis of Europe forbade not only aliyah to Israel, but also moving to America.
One activist zionist rabbi offered visas to 20 Lithuanian Yeshivot to go to Eretz Yisrael. Only the Mir accepted, and survived.
I heard once from r' Bulman ztl, that it is a Haredi tradition to be contrarians. Before Herzl, it was the haredim who were making Aliyah, and who were Hovevei Zion. Of course both the Gra's followers and the Besht's. Once Zionism was established, they took the contrary position, with great zeal.
being a davka contrarian is not always a good thing. It is also false. If your opponent does something correct, that doesn't mean u must do the opposite.
and not finally - I always opposed Shavei's work with the freakshow people. The work on finding the tribes of israel is godo work, and it is not in your power to determine if this work is right or wrong. If a Gadol b'Israel forbids it that's something else. But many of the people who have back thru Shavei are either jews or decendants who converted.
Rap:
ReplyDeleteI want to make some further arguments. I know you will react strongly to them, but they r intellectual arguments based on Torah sources.
Contention #1) A while back RDE mentioned that Rambam in the intro to MT states that the Talmud Bavli has power only since we accepted it. That is a very stylized statement, and I am not quoting either RDE or rambam word for word, and I welcome all clarifications on this very important point.
The crux of the matter is, that the exiled tribes did not accept the Bavli or Yerushalmi for that matter, since they were exiled around 730 BCE. However, those remnants of the tribes are not necessarily bound by Shas. They can learn their Torah according to their own understanding.
Contention # 2:
In some limited cases, Torah actually commands (Mitzvah D'Oraita) proselyting. We both know this, and we also know that Chazal saw this as a limited and exceptional case. Of course, I am referring to Isha Yafat Toar. A man can go to war, rape a goya, or take her by force, and have a torah ordained quickie conversion in 30 days, no questions asked.
Before you start making absurd claims, it is important to point out that this case was very much bread and butter in ancient Israel.
we had wars, and we took spoils.
I am not applying this to any greater Zionist vision. No. the point should be quite obvious. From the Torah POV, intention is not a requirement for the woman. And "conversion for marriage" is not only not forbidden, it is actually a mitzvah. please don't throw cheap accusations of Sabbateanism or reform. use your intellect, you (or you ghost writer) obviously has some sechel.
Contention #3:
As mentioned previously, the Torah forbids intermarriage with 7-10 nations, such as Amor, Hivvi, Jevusi , Moav, etc. Shlomo was berated not because of his love for Swedish Blondes, but for the nochriot of the Nations that G-d forbade us to marry. the verse in Devarim that you quoted, refers to these nations, not the beautiful swedish blondes, American shiksas, Amazonian natives etc.
they are d'rabbanan.
These 3 contentions are deliberately controversial. But they are all based on Torah.
Good Shabbes.
Eddie your comments are getting more and more absurd.
ReplyDeleteYou are making a new religion in order to justify your points. I'll grant your points are cogent according to this new religion - but this blog is about Orthodox Judaism. In Orthodoxy there is halacha and mesora - you are assuming one can ignore this and simply go back through history and cherry pick whatever view you want.
RaP is presenting the Orthodox viewpoint and you are presenting a hodgepodge of Reform, Conservative and secular understanding. There is no basis for criticizing RaP for not following your new religion.
Part 1
ReplyDelete"Read your won contradictory words: If anyone can "prove" that they are "Jewish" on their maternal line, then they do NOT need a conversion."
see? You do not know anything about it, like most US citizens do not know anything about the green card. When Jewish descent in maternal line in proven, but far back, Rabbis want people to do a Giur le chumra. How come you do not know this? Indicates to me that you did not do any particular research on the question, just as your other statements indicate that you did not do any particular research on Freund's organisation or people who went through it. Nevertheless, you take the liberty to scorn and denigrate those people.
"What nonsense. A gentile before he converts is forbidden to keep Shabbat or to practice Kashrut."
This again shows that you have not the faintest idea of how Giurim are prepared nowadays. Now Beith Din will convert a Ger who works on Shabbat and says "but as soon as I get my Giur, I will stop. Up to now it is still permitted".
It is true that a Gentile is not allowed to keep shabbat, and Giur candidated solve the problem by doing ONE melacha on Shabbat. However, the Rabbi working with them asks them to take all arrangements in order to keep shabbat and Kashrut for quite some time before the Giur. One factor determing whether they will get the Giur is the question whether they take all the necessary measures (quit their job if it requires them to work on shabbat) and stick to it over at least half a year, if not more.
Here is an other example where you just assert things without the least knowledge of the facts.
"What rubbish are you speaking?! These people all start out as GENTILES, or have you missed that point?"
Do your research, man, before you make wild claims. You do not know anything about that, you just assume without proof. I do not think this assertion is true, especially in the case of Poles who come back to judaism and descendents of Anussim who come back to judaism... and I want to point out that they were the special aim of your scorn.
This question might be more open in the case of Mitzoram (as it is in the case of ethopian jews too). I tried to find out more details about the two last groups and was not really convinced that they belonged to lost tribes. However, in the case of Ethopian Jews, the sefardic chief Rabbi (I think it was Ovadia Yosef) decided they were jewish back in his time, so who am I to say he is wrong?
"It was the same with Soviet Jewry years ago. In the beginning it was only about a few "refuseniks" that wanted to leave, in the end it turned into a mass exodus that also brought out over 300,000 gentiles from the former USSR in its trail, an ongoing catastrophe!!!"
Back in the 70ies and 80ies, all the statistics on Jewish population in the world stated that there were more Jews in Soviet Union than in Israel. How come you missed those figures? This remark shows again that you are not at all interested in facts, but just in assumptions that come from your fantasy. It was always clear that Soviet Jewry was NOT just about "a few Refusniks".
Isreal did not want to make laws that keep children from staying with their parents, this is why some people who are not jewish also came with them. Perhaps so shrewd elements just lied about their jewish status and they were not found out before making aliya (bureaucratic problem on Israel's side???)
As far as I can tell from the galut, many Soviet Jews are not interested in coming to Israel. They would rather go to a country they deem more promisind like the US or Germany. To them, the possibility of making Aliya is even a problem, since it might be a reason for other states to refuse them access.
"Read your won contradictory words: If anyone can "prove" that they are "Jewish" on their maternal line, then they do NOT need a conversion."
ReplyDeletesee? You do not know anything about it, like most US citizens do not know anything about the green card. When Jewish descent in maternal line in proven, but far back, Rabbis want people to do a Giur le chumra. How come you do not know this? Indicates to me that you did not do any particular research on the question, just as your other statements indicate that you did not do any particular research on Freund's organisation or people who went through it. Nevertheless, you take the liberty to scorn and denigrate those people.
"What nonsense. A gentile before he converts is forbidden to keep Shabbat or to practice Kashrut."
This again shows that you have not the faintest idea of how Giurim are prepared nowadays. Now Beith Din will convert a Ger who works on Shabbat and says "but as soon as I get my Giur, I will stop. Up to now it is still permitted".
It is true that a Gentile is not allowed to keep shabbat, and Giur candidated solve the problem by doing ONE melacha on Shabbat. However, the Rabbi working with them asks them to take all arrangements in order to keep shabbat and Kashrut for quite some time before the Giur. One factor determing whether they will get the Giur is the question whether they take all the necessary measures (quit their job if it requires them to work on shabbat) and stick to it over at least half a year, if not more.
Here is an other example where you just assert things without the least knowledge of the facts.
"What rubbish are you speaking?! These people all start out as GENTILES, or have you missed that point?"
Do your research, man, before you make wild claims. You do not know anything about that, you just assume without proof. I do not think this assertion is true, especially in the case of Poles who come back to judaism and descendents of Anussim who come back to judaism... and I want to point out that they were the special aim of your scorn.
This question might be more open in the case of Mitzoram (as it is in the case of ethopian jews too). I tried to find out more details about the two last groups and was not really convinced that they belonged to lost tribes. However, in the case of Ethopian Jews, the sefardic chief Rabbi (I think it was Ovadia Yosef) decided they were jewish back in his time, so who am I to say he is wrong?
"It was the same with Soviet Jewry years ago. In the beginning it was only about a few "refuseniks" that wanted to leave, in the end it turned into a mass exodus that also brought out over 300,000 gentiles from the former USSR in its trail, an ongoing catastrophe!!!"
Back in the 70ies and 80ies, all the statistics on Jewish population in the world stated that there were more Jews in Soviet Union than in Israel. How come you missed those figures? This remark shows again that you are not at all interested in facts, but just in assumptions that come from your fantasy. It was always clear that Soviet Jewry was NOT just about "a few Refusniks".
Isreal did not want to make laws that keep children from staying with their parents, this is why some people who are not jewish also came with them. Perhaps so shrewd elements just lied about their jewish status and they were not found out before making aliya (bureaucratic problem on Israel's side???)
As far as I can tell from the galut, many Soviet Jews are not interested in coming to Israel. They would rather go to a country they deem more promisind like the US or Germany. To them, the possibility of making Aliya is even a problem, since it might be a reason for other states to refuse them access.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteIn general, I think that your remark on russian jews is very interesting. It shows that mashiach will not have an easy task ahead when he comes - or that Mashiach is a dream that might turn out to be a nightmare once it is put into practice.
From your words, I feel that you do not have much tolerance for jews who are different than you, especially if they don't know anything about halacha and arrive in great numbers.
However, this is exactely what mashiach is supposed to do: bring back the lost tribes and the last jew from galut.
I think that the type of reaction you display is quite widespread: "We do not need them, let them stay where they are", because people like you feel they do not need anyone who is different and brings in a new culture.
I have the impression that orthodox judaism is a lot about "being different from the goyim around us" and this habit is so ingrained that it does not matter if "the goyim around" us are really jews.
The urge to build close-knit communities who spit on everything that comes from outside is so strong, that i suspect it will never be possible to fullfill the vision of Meshiach: bring klall Israel together to live in peace. This is defnintely not what certain religious jews want. They want to keep far from anything that is different from them, as it happens in Ramat Beith Shemesh where jews who think of themselves as orthodox spit on jews who think of themselves as orthodox.
Mind you, I do not in the least want to hint that Freund has anything to do with Mashiach. I just think it is interesting - from a sociological point of view - how unaccepting certain jewish groups are. And I do not think they will change when Mashiach comes, so Maschiach will be a catastrophy for them.
I see that part 1 of my answer did not get through. Here it is again. Could you please post it before part 2?
ReplyDeletepart 1
"Read your won contradictory words: If anyone can "prove" that they are "Jewish" on their maternal line, then they do NOT need a conversion."
see? You do not know anything about it, like most US citizens do not know anything about the green card. When Jewish descent in maternal line in proven, but far back, Rabbis want people to do a Giur le chumra. How come you do not know this? Indicates to me that you did not do any particular research on the question, just as your other statements indicate that you did not do any particular research on Freund's organisation or people who went through it. Nevertheless, you take the liberty to scorn and denigrate those people.
"What nonsense. A gentile before he converts is forbidden to keep Shabbat or to practice Kashrut."
This again shows that you have not the faintest idea of how Giurim are prepared nowadays. Now Beith Din will convert a Ger who works on Shabbat and says "but as soon as I get my Giur, I will stop. Up to now it is still permitted".
It is true that a Gentile is not allowed to keep shabbat, and Giur candidated solve the problem by doing ONE melacha on Shabbat. However, the Rabbi working with them asks them to take all arrangements in order to keep shabbat and Kashrut for quite some time before the Giur. One factor determing whether they will get the Giur is the question whether they take all the necessary measures (quit their job if it requires them to work on shabbat) and stick to it over at least half a year, if not more.
Here is an other example where you just assert things without the least knowledge of the facts.
"What rubbish are you speaking?! These people all start out as GENTILES, or have you missed that point?"
Do your research, man, before you make wild claims. You do not know anything about that, you just assume without proof. I do not think this assertion is true, especially in the case of Poles who come back to judaism and descendents of Anussim who come back to judaism... and I want to point out that they were the special aim of your scorn.
This question might be more open in the case of Mitzoram (as it is in the case of ethopian jews too). I tried to find out more details about the two last groups and was not really convinced that they belonged to lost tribes. However, in the case of Ethopian Jews, the sefardic chief Rabbi (I think it was Ovadia Yosef) decided they were jewish back in his time, so who am I to say he is wrong?
"It was the same with Soviet Jewry years ago. In the beginning it was only about a few "refuseniks" that wanted to leave, in the end it turned into a mass exodus that also brought out over 300,000 gentiles from the former USSR in its trail, an ongoing catastrophe!!!"
Back in the 70ies and 80ies, all the statistics on Jewish population in the world stated that there were more Jews in Soviet Union than in Israel. How come you missed those figures? This remark shows again that you are not at all interested in facts, but just in assumptions that come from your fantasy. It was always clear that Soviet Jewry was NOT just about "a few Refusniks".
Isreal did not want to make laws that keep children from staying with their parents, this is why some people who are not jewish also came with them. Perhaps so shrewd elements just lied about their jewish status and they were not found out before making aliya (bureaucratic problem on Israel's side???)
As far as I can tell from the galut, many Soviet Jews are not interested in coming to Israel. They would rather go to a country they deem more promisind like the US or Germany. To them, the possibility of making Aliya is even a problem, since it might be a reason for other states to refuse them access.
Part 1
ReplyDelete"Read your won contradictory words: If anyone can "prove" that they are "Jewish" on their maternal line, then they do NOT need a conversion."
see? You do not know anything about it, like most US citizens do not know anything about the green card. When Jewish descent in maternal line in proven, but far back, Rabbis want people to do a Giur le chumra. How come you do not know this? Indicates to me that you did not do any particular research on the question, just as your other statements indicate that you did not do any particular research on Freund's organisation or people who went through it. Nevertheless, you take the liberty to scorn and denigrate those people.
"What nonsense. A gentile before he converts is forbidden to keep Shabbat or to practice Kashrut."
This again shows that you have not the faintest idea of how Giurim are prepared nowadays. Now Beith Din will convert a Ger who works on Shabbat and says "but as soon as I get my Giur, I will stop. Up to now it is still permitted".
It is true that a Gentile is not allowed to keep shabbat, and Giur candidated solve the problem by doing ONE melacha on Shabbat. However, the Rabbi working with them asks them to take all arrangements in order to keep shabbat and Kashrut for quite some time before the Giur. One factor determing whether they will get the Giur is the question whether they take all the necessary measures (quit their job if it requires them to work on shabbat) and stick to it over at least half a year, if not more.
Here is an other example where you just assert things without the least knowledge of the facts.
"What rubbish are you speaking?! These people all start out as GENTILES, or have you missed that point?"
Do your research, man, before you make wild claims. You do not know anything about that, you just assume without proof. I do not think this assertion is true, especially in the case of Poles who come back to judaism and descendents of Anussim who come back to judaism... and I want to point out that they were the special aim of your scorn.
This question might be more open in the case of Mitzoram (as it is in the case of ethopian jews too). I tried to find out more details about the two last groups and was not really convinced that they belonged to lost tribes. However, in the case of Ethopian Jews, the sefardic chief Rabbi (I think it was Ovadia Yosef) decided they were jewish back in his time, so who am I to say he is wrong?
"It was the same with Soviet Jewry years ago. In the beginning it was only about a few "refuseniks" that wanted to leave, in the end it turned into a mass exodus that also brought out over 300,000 gentiles from the former USSR in its trail, an ongoing catastrophe!!!"
Back in the 70ies and 80ies, all the statistics on Jewish population in the world stated that there were more Jews in Soviet Union than in Israel. How come you missed those figures? This remark shows again that you are not at all interested in facts, but just in assumptions that come from your fantasy. It was always clear that Soviet Jewry was NOT just about "a few Refusniks".
Isreal did not want to make laws that keep children from staying with their parents, this is why some people who are not jewish also came with them. Perhaps so shrewd elements just lied about their jewish status and they were not found out before making aliya (bureaucratic problem on Israel's side???)
As far as I can tell from the galut, many Soviet Jews are not interested in coming to Israel. They would rather go to a country they deem more promisind like the US or Germany. To them, the possibility of making Aliya is even a problem, since it might be a reason for other states to refuse them access.
DT:
ReplyDeleteYour comment is not refuting any of my points.
If we were discussing , say, kashrut, and I quoted the fact that certain rabbis would eat poultry with milk, there would be no problem with this. Rambam says the same.
Now, there are similar views on the Torah about conversion.
The simple case of Isha Yafet Toar is one. If you deny this, then you are denying the Torah yourself, which I am sure you would not wish to do.
It has nothing to do with reform or conservative.
And I am not justifying anything. I am raising points for discussion.
I mentioned already that the Isha Yafet Toar is a limited wartime case.
If I have made an error please point it out, but the case is in the Torah, you cannot deny that, or can you?
RaP: Freund must be nervous. He has not responded himself on this blog as he did in the past, but so far he has had at least three aggressive sock-puppets posting, "Eddie", "6ft", "yeshaya", acting as his foot soldiers, so here goes yet again...:
ReplyDelete6ft said: "...When Jewish descent in maternal line in proven, but far back"
RaP: You are funny, now you add the words "but far back" when that was not in your first statement and shows how you play fast and loosely with the facts in desperation to make points. Get this through your head, "proving" a "matrilineal line...FAR BACK" is an admission that there is NO proof to convince a beis din because that person is in effect a gentile, that is why they require to go through conversion regardless. In fact it is far better for such a potential convert to remain in the class of gentile, otherwise they suspect of being possible mamzerim.
"This again shows that you have not the faintest idea of how Giurim are prepared nowadays."
RaP: When Shavei Israel first connects with people they are NEITHER "converts" nor are they on any "conversion course" of any kind. they are just ignoramuses somewhere in the jungles, hilltops and deserts with flighty ideas that Freund then stokes up to his own advantage. Again, please be clear at what stage of the process you are talking and kindly REFRAIN from referring to 100% provable gentiles as "Jews" or "Jewish" as Freund fraudulently, deceptively and manipulatively does.
"in the case of Ethopian Jews, the sefardic chief Rabbi (I think it was Ovadia Yosef) decided they were jewish back in his time, so who am I to say he is wrong?"
RaP: In the case of the Falashas I have nothing to say as this predates Freund and has been settled by leading rabbis such as Rav Yosef who accepted them and gave the green light to Mencahem Begin to bring some to Israel -- while the last Lubavitcher Rebbe declared them 100% gentiles, unlike all the categories that Freund has subsequently reconnoitered and stoked up to come to Israel and give headaches to the batei din that they don't need!
"Soviet Jewry was NOT just about "a few Refusniks"."
RaP: You don't read what I say! Just twist things your way. Everyone knows there were millions of Jews in old USSR, but they did NOT want to leave Russia. The first ones to want to leave Russia were a handful of "Refuseniks" and many decades later they were followed by the masses, THAT IN TURN brought with them a flood of over 300,00 gentiles to Israel. That was my point, and what Freund is doing now has the same potential, he wants to bring out "only a few" some of whom get converted, but in the end, it could result in a tsunami of tens of millions of gentiles who want to "convert" and break Israel from within as a de facto halachic Jewish state.
"The first ones to want to leave Russia were a handful of "Refuseniks" and many decades later they were followed by the masses, THAT IN TURN brought with them a flood of over 300,00 gentiles to Israel."
ReplyDeleteyou see, this is where I suspect that your problem does not only lie with the 300'000 gentiles who came along...
...by the way those are fewer than the philipino, thai, rumanian and chinese gentiles who were imported by Rabin and later governments to replace the "dangerous" palestinians...
there is something in your way of writing that makes me suspect that you also have a problem with the millions of authentic jews who come from the ex-soviet-union.
And this is exactely the interesting sociological issues I pointed out in my previous comment:
Boy, would you be unhappy when Mashiach comes and brings the rest of the 8 Million known jews (and possibly more millions of unknown jews) back to Israel.
Therefore, I suggest you stop praying for the arrival of Mashaich. It is dishonest. You do not want it.
DT:
ReplyDeleteYour comment is not refuting any of my points.
If we were discussing , say, kashrut, and I quoted the fact that certain rabbis would eat poultry with milk, there would be no problem with this. Rambam says the same.
Now, there are similar views on the Torah about conversion.
The simple case of Isha Yafet Toar is one. If you deny this, then you are denying the Torah yourself, which I am sure you would not wish to do.
It has nothing to do with reform or conservative.
And I am not justifying anything. I am raising points for discussion.
I mentioned already that the Isha Yafet Toar is a limited wartime case.
If I have made an error please point it out, but the case is in the Torah, you cannot deny that, or can you?
=================
Eddie the discussion started with the issue of proselytizing. The case of Yofas Toar is limited to war time and has no relevance to modern halachic discourse. I am not aware of a single posek who thinks it is permitted to rape enemy women during wartime. I don't think it was permitted from Talmudic times. Even though there are clear statements that it occurred in the time of Dovid. I don't think the practice existed much after his time. The issue of chicken & milk as well as whether the Torah prohibition against intermarriage was limited to the 7 Nations has no relevance after the closing of the Talmud. There are certain decisions which are not revisited or reopened. Thus they are irrelevant for contemporary halachic decisions and practice. You will however find such an approach in the Reform or Conservative or Secular analysis.
We don't go back and say "well Shammai held a different view so let's switch from Hillel." We don't reopen positions which have been settled by the sealing of the Talmud.
We don't say that since Yaakov's son's married their sisters (according to one view) why don't we consider that possibility today.
As far as I have seen we have over 2500 year in which it has been clearly and consistently accepted not to proselytize. That is a fact which is decisive for an Orthodox Jew.
"As far as I have seen we have over 2500 year in which it has been clearly and consistently accepted not to proselytize. That is a fact which is decisive for an Orthodox Jew"
ReplyDeleteYet, if someone thinks in good faith that a certain population is of jewish descendence in maternal line, teaching them the tenets of judaism would not be proselytising.
So the difference between you and Freund is not whether proselitising is allowed or forbidden.
It is whether it can be believed in good faith that so-and-so are descendents of jews in maternal line.
As Rap pointed out, the Sefardi chief Rabbi and the Lubavitcher Rebbe disagreed on this point as far as the falashas were concerned.
In fact, it often happens that two Rabbis hold contrary views, both in good faith.
I would say that this applies here too.
1 of 2: RaP to 6ft again:
ReplyDelete"6ft said...you see, this is where I suspect that your problem does not only lie with the 300'000 gentiles who came along..."
RaP: "Suspicions," innuendos, and the creation of "straw men" are never substitutes for solid argumentation based on facts and logic.
"...by the way those are fewer than the philipino, thai, rumanian and chinese gentiles who were imported by Rabin and later governments to replace the "dangerous" palestinians..."
RaP Why mention this? These are 1000% gentiles brought in as cheap domestic (slave?) labor, and Israel is suffering for it and I do not see how it related to anything in the debate. Rabin or Netanyahu are not religiously motivated and they do not have any goals to proselytize let alone convert those sad folks from overseas brought in as workers. In fact the Israelis would like to DEPORT them, which is what they will eventually have to do to those obstinate non-Halachic Jewish olim who refuse Halachic conversions to become truly full halachic Jews, who wisely often do choose to return to the former USSR lands or go to Germany or America on their own.
"there is something in your way of writing that makes me suspect that you also have a problem with the millions of authentic jews who come from the ex-soviet-union."
RaP: This is an egregious example of how you just make up "positions" for me that I never uttered or even hinted it and then try to "stick them to me" in your typical creation of "straw men" tactics in discussions. Sorry, but no cigar. I love Russian Jews and have quite close personal and professional contacts with them!
"And this is exactely the interesting sociological issues I pointed out in my previous comment: Boy, would you be unhappy when Mashiach comes and brings the rest of the 8 Million known jews (and possibly more millions of unknown jews) back to Israel."
RaP: And you my friend, clearly transgress the explicit warnings of the RAMBAM not to reckon or try to figure out the details of the who what and when of Mashiachs's coming, so stop talking as if you "know" what will be and I "don't" because no one knows!
"Therefore, I suggest you stop praying for the arrival of Mashaich. It is dishonest. You do not want it."
RaP: Umm, sorry, every Orthodox Jews prays at least three times a day for the coming of [the true] Mashiach, the in-gathering of the [JEWISH] Exiles, and the re-building of the [Third and final JEWISH Holy] Temple. Can't help that, it's "company rules"!
2 of 2: RaP to 6ft again:
ReplyDelete"6ft said...Yet, if someone thinks in good faith that a certain population is of jewish descendence in maternal line, teaching them the tenets of judaism would not be proselytising."
RaP: Huh??? If "someone 'THINKS' in good faith"??? -- Just exactly what is " 'thinking' in good faith that you are Jewish in a maternal line"??? Is that via dream??? Hallucination??? "Revelation"??? 'Think,' 'think,' 'think,' 'think,' and presto...one is of Jewish "maternal" line??? Once upon an Inquisition in Iberia...snooze...Tick, tock, tick, tock it is five centuries later in Spain and Portugal, time to stop snoozing and going to Mass and getting baptized and startin to "think" our great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmothers etc etc etc etc etc were "Jewish"??? Just how does that work??? Would a simple secular court of law even accept such dumb assertions and "claims" about how to "think"???
"So the difference between you and Freund is not whether proselitising is allowed or forbidden."
RaP: As Robin would say, "holy cow" Batman, or is it just plain BS that you like to spout?!
"It is whether it can be believed in good faith that so-and-so are descendents of jews in maternal line."
RaP: Just saying the same nonsense over and over again, does not make it right you know!
"As Rap pointed out, the Sefardi chief Rabbi and the Lubavitcher Rebbe disagreed on this point as far as the falashas were concerned."
RaP: Rav Yosef nevertheless wavered and expressed contrary view whether they still required to undergo pro-forma (lechumra) conversions or not.
"In fact, it often happens that two Rabbis hold contrary views, both in good faith."
RaP: There are no know major rabbis who support Freund's goals or his assertions about every group he finds. It's all done ad hoc. Freund is a free agent head-hunting for his quest, when he finds a few that he feels foot the bill, he starts the process rolling by first ARBITRARILY labeling them "lost Jews" or just plain "Jewish" as if they were no different to any Jewish folks he knows in New York or Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. Then he starts "educating" them -- really it's already a conversion program he has cooked up for them, and it's most often done by converts who should not be involved with conversions, then he aims to ship them to Israel ASAP and place them before PERPLEXED batei din whom he cajoles to convert as many of them as possible, then he ingenuously and cheekily turns around with a straight face and with those upper-class inflections and says, "because" a few were converted it's now a great "signal" to preach and reach out to tens of millions more gentiles in the PROSELYTIZATION that is causing all the controversy in the first place!
"I would say that this applies here too."
RaP: Wrong! Can you or Freund or anyone cite and present the WRITTEN RULINGS by known authoritative rabbis that support Freund's PROSELYTIZATIONS to all and sundry he feels like targeting -- that's at least tens of millions of gentiles by his own admissions??!!
"Rav Yosef nevertheless wavered and expressed contrary view whether they still required to undergo pro-forma (lechumra) conversions or not."
ReplyDeleteWEll, in this case, this would also fit your criteria of proselytising...
I do not really see the difference between ethiopia and mitzoram, but perhaps I am not privy to the details. But neither are you, for all I can tell.