Etrog
Three fascinating days of discussion at the Annual Dayanim Conference of Eternal Jewish Family for scores of community rabbis and dayanim came to a close Tuesday afternoon in a special event held at the Hotel Sheraton Meadowlands in New Jersey. The intensive hearings held throughout Conference awakened a strong reaction in Jewish communities throughout the U.S.
Scores of community rabbis and rabbinic judges from more than fifteen important well-known rabbinic courts throughout the United States were invited to the Conference, which adopted the regulations and halachic concerns of the Heads and rabbis of Eternal Jewish Family. During the conference they discussed many halachic issues relating to conversion and intermarriage, Heaven forbid.[...]
One typo is R' Yosef Weiner from Wesley Hills, who in actuality is R' Yosef Viner from Pomona.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea why he would want to get mixed up with Tropper's shtussim.
Would I be correct if I said that Tropper is picking friendly media outlets, ie Esrog, to print puff pieces o EJF that are more like paid ads than journalism?
ReplyDeleteAnd who do they think they are fooling with the heavy pro-Tropper editorializing? Or should I say "idolizing"?
Notice how Belz is the only chassidus participating.
ReplyDeleteDoes this have anything to do with rivalries they have with different factions of the Edah Charedis who are opposed to EJF?
"Notice how Belz is the only chassidus participating. Does this have anything to do with rivalries they have with different factions of the Edah Charedis who are opposed to EJF?"
ReplyDeleteNo, very indirectly. The bottom line is that Rabbi Tropper has always been very close with the Belzer Rebbe, whom he has sought out for advice over the years.
Belz is ALWAYS hungry for money and they don't care where they get it from. If Rabbi Tropper can get Tom Kaplan to pump in even a mere $36,000- to Belz institutions, they will gladly send along a dayan to make a guest appearance at any event.
In any case, the Belzer dayanim and batei din carry no power whatever, every single dayan is a highly controlled puppet of the Belzer Rebbe and takes very clear instructions.
There was even once a case where the son of an Israeli Belzer went OTD and met an Italian girl in NY, and the Belzer dayan there was very quick to give her a quicky geirus himself. They look at such things as "jokes" as long as their "anash" (anshei shlomeinu) are taken care of.
The Belzer Rebbe also over-ruled his rabbonim in NY when one of the heads of Belz was having a hot and heavy affair with his secretary and the Belzer Rebbe told each to go back to their original spouses, with the one who was having the affair demanding a hefty pay-ff to boot and got it. They did as the Rebbe commanded and not as one would think should be done according to Shulchan Oruch.
When it comes to their own interests, Belz will take money from anyone who will give it to them and will do anything to kasher the faults of any member of its key people if need be. They look at Rabbi Tropper as another puppet to manipulate in their favor, while he gets the kavod of having a Belzer dayan show up every now and again.
In any case, Belz has zero to do with the outside world so it's an excercise in futility for them to be at geirus conferences for goyim that they despise and will never do the proselytizing things EJF wants done. Oh, and they certainly don't need EJF to lay down and teach it standards, they create their own "standards" and make up their own rules for their own chasidim and kehilas as they go along with the Rebbe calling all the shots.
By the way, what is this new "Etrog News" site all about in any case? It looks like it's just another version of the Hamodia from its tone and style.
ReplyDeleteOn its "About Us" page it doesn't give any specifics about who's behind it, just talks in the usual frum platitudes and superlatives.
It is new, only six months old: "'Etrog' was established in March/Nissan of 2009/5769" and "'Etrog' is under private ownership; however its daily management is carried out in the 'Olam Hatorah' office."
It could well be that some people connected with Blez run it just like the Hidabroot crowd is directly involved with Belz too (they also plug Rabbi Tropper and EJF from time to time.)
The Belzer Rebbe has theories about doing "kiruv via an extended long arm" like fishing in dirty ponds without getting one's fingers wet or dirty, but he does it. This he is able to use as "points" to garner support from people who do have a genuine interest in kiruv and how the Internet can help spread Yiddishkeit.
It may even be possible that Rabbi Tropper and Tom Kaplan are involved in this new site and therefore it's now an outlet for them praising Rabbi Tropper and EJF to the high heavens in this article calling him "Hagaon" when no one else speaks about him or EJF like that. But when you buy your own website or proxy sites or press time you can say what suits you anytime.
This article was obviously written in the back office of Kol Yaakov. Eretz Yisroeldikke would refer to Monsey instead of the tiny hamlet of Wesley Hills. And since R' Yosef Viner only recently moved to the Monsey area from Flatbush, Tropper's staff made the mistake of placing him one neighborhood over from Pomona.
ReplyDeleteThis Belzer-Tropper nexus would explain why Roni/Tropper would repeat ad infinitum the allegation that the Belzer Rebbe avoided Guma. In any case, people claiming to have been at the Belzer tish have written comments on blogs that they had seen nothing of the sort.
ReplyDeleteBuried in the midst of the Etrog/EJF infomercial, there was this astounding declaration that may ignite new friction with Orthodox and Charedi batei din in America:
ReplyDelete"The dayan Harav Hagaon Rabbi Binyamin Attias, a member of the rabbinical court in Tel Aviv, presented a serious problem facing the rabbis in the Diaspora. In Israel, he explained, on any certificate of conversion to Judaism there is also a picture identification of the person, so that his identity is certain. In the U.S. and Europe, however, the conversion certificate is a document with no photo and no other means of identification and can be easily faked, so there is no certainty for the rabbis to know that this is indeed the person who was halachically converted to Judaism. This serious problem was presented to the Rishon L’Tzion, Hagaon Rabbi Amar shlit’a, and it is currently being examined as to ways to prevent counterfeiting."
Let's break this down and take a closer look:
"The dayan Harav Hagaon Rabbi Binyamin Attias, a member of the rabbinical court in Tel Aviv,"
RaP: This same Rabbi Attias was the one who triggered the series of events that resulted in the negation of all the conversions performed by Rabbi Drukman's state batei din creating war with the Religious Zionist rabbinate in Israel. It was Rabbi Attias who gave Rabbi Sherman the opening to go ahead and issue his ruling against Drukman's conversions that in turn led to the matter being referred to Israel's supreme court creating one huge unholy mess. Now Attias is invited to the USA and speaks as if he is the "posek ha'acharon" regarding the way Orthodox conversions are to be done in the USA. Notice how it is not Rabbis Tropper or Eichenstein saying this radical stuff coming out of rabbi Attias's mouth, but they rely on a bomb-throwing radical dayan who wouldn't care if he ignited a civil war between Orthodox, Religious Zionist, Modern Orthodox and Charedi Jews bringing everyone down. Attias was taken to task for the vile language he used in the initial ruling negating a conversion early on. He did damage in Ashdod what does he want in America, mayhem?
"presented a serious problem facing the rabbis in the Diaspora."
RaP: If it's a problem facing rabbis in the diaspora then let THEM say it. Why is HE, coming from Israel talking about it? If HE has the problem, then let HIM say it is a problem for HIM in Israel because rabbis in America, or anywhere or anytime, have never made this an issue.
"In Israel, he explained, on any certificate of conversion to Judaism there is also a picture identification of the person, so that his identity is certain."
RaP: Precisely, it's in Israel. But he forgets to mention that in Israel, religion/Judaism and the state cooperate very closely and are in a position to rely upon each other's systems. It is because Israeli citizens carry ID cards with photos that it is established that converts to Judaism can also be required to do so if that is what they want there, meaning when they ALSO become citizens of Israel they must have matching and correlating photos on both conversion certificates and on regular state state ID cards. But what does this have to do with America? It is absurd to expect any American batei din to act as arms of the Israeli ministry of the intererior that moniters and has the responsibility of accepting converts as citizens to reqquire converts in America to have photo ID as well. To now push a "need" and couch it as a "warning" that conversion certificates from the USA or abroad are somehow "lacking" because they don't have a photo stapled to it, is way out and simply stupid. It is just as easy to forge photos as it is to forge certificates...
Etrog/EJF infomercial:
ReplyDelete"(Rabbi Attias says:) In the U.S. and Europe, however, the conversion certificate is a document with no photo and no other means of identification and can be easily faked,"
RaP: He is unrealistic and even stupid for making this assertion because Halachically there is absolutely no need to have photos on any Halachically-related documents, such as semichas, kashrut certificates, kesubas, gittin, or shtarei geirus. If the poskim and gedolim of our times would have required this they would have said so starting about 100 years ago since the discovery and development of photography. If someone wants to cheat the system, any system, it is always possible. But on the other hand in today's world, with instant communication and technology it is as easy as a few phone calls and Emails to confirm or reject information about a convert. Let batei din keep photo archives if they like. Some doctors' offices and credit card companies take photos of clients. But it should neither be a requirement for conversions nor a reason to question conversions because every convert must have appeared before a beit din. Every bais din has telephones and every rov and rebbetzin who ever spoke to the convert or saw them has phones and cell phones and Email usually and can be contacted instantly (unless the dayan or his staf are too lazy), so it's just provocative and demeaning to come up with these silly non-rocket science ideas that will just act as needless obstacles.
"so there is no certainty for the rabbis to know that this is indeed the person who was halachically converted to Judaism."
RaP: Which rabbis? The one's in Israel? Will they accept conversions they doubt even if it has ten photos and mug shots on it? No. Photos do not establish Halachic facts but talking with and confirming with a dayan or rov or posek do. Maybe next they will require a short video of the convert dipping in the mikva or of being under the chupa? This narishkeit is unbelievable.
"This serious problem"
RaP: What is a "serious problem"? Just making up things and saying them does not mean they are "serious problems"! The real serious problem is that Rabbi Attias backed by rabbis Tropper and Eisenstein can say such shtussim with a straight face and get away with it.
"was presented to the Rishon L’Tzion, Hagaon Rabbi Amar shlit’a,"
RaP: As if he has nothing better to worry about.
"and it is currently being examined as to ways to prevent counterfeiting."
RaP: This makes it sound that the matter has already been decided when it has not. Maybe in Israel the batei din have to deal with forgers, they should try examining Rabbi Tropper for that first as he is a leading forger of rabbinic documents as has been shown on this blog and as alleged by his one-time disciple Guma who claims that Rabbi Tropper forged thank you letters from gedolim and sent them on to Guma to bamboozle him.
Honesty has to start at the foundation and if rabbis cannot be honest then why should anyone expect the ordinary people to act differently?