Wednesday, July 22, 2009

R Avraham Goldstein & his Puerto Rican Community

22 comments :

  1. Recipients and PublicityJuly 22, 2009 at 10:11 AM

    A Google search of "toiras jesed" yields not just this video, but also a lot of additional information about this, as of late, busy group. Their website does not seem up and running yet.

    In contrast to the very frum looking people on the visuals of this video, starting with the "Fiddler on the Roof" motif, by contrast it is also interesting to LISTEN to the voice-over on this video that presents the organization and it goals as not just one devoted to helping Latino gentiles convert to Judaism, but that "the purpose of this organization is to improve Jewish observance in Latin America" and if so who has authorized and requested this? Do they have a haskoma and heter in writing from a known reliable rov and source? Since when is seeking out converts a function of "improving Jewish observance" ANYWHERE?

    The voice-over also tries to present the organization as being mainstream since "we have people from all backgrounds" but admits that it's "especially for people who converted to Judaism."

    Question: If they truly and fully converted to Judaism halachically, why do they need to be sequestered and hidden from other Orthodox Jews on an island beach? Obviously then, these are people who are NOT fully converted and accpted yet but are in some sort of serious limbo awaiting to know what their fate and future will be, and the organization is therefore setting them up for disappointment by keeping them them anesthetized in the dark. One must also hope and pray that this is not going to turn out like the Jim Jones fiasco and his doomed cult.

    The video claims that "we bought property in Mayogeuz, Puerto Rico...in a country-like paradise with beautiful surroundings" but WHO EXACTLY gave/gives the funding for such an expensive setting? The question needs to be answered in an era when so many Christian Evangelical groups are flush with cash to create both Hebrew Christians and missionaries who will target Jews, as well as when groups like EJF and Shavai Israel have devoted their public mandates and budgets to reaching out to gentiles with the flimsiest connections to Jews or Judaism. Some straight talk and openess is required.

    It says that "the Jewish community of New York" participated in a hachnosas sefer Torah there, but this is an exaggeration, because New York Jews do not have people who reprsent them in any way. Just people who may have maybe come out from New York (like Monsey!), but they only represent themselves.

    What kind of "yeshiva" do they plan to build (as they claim) and who will run it? A genuine yeshiva cannot teach Torah and Talmud to gentiles who are are converts-in-waiting or who may never make the grade as converts altogether. Too bad that it says they plan to build a "winter resort" with the yeshiva, and a mikva that does not exist yet (guess the ocean is good enough for now). Yeshivas and "winter resorts" are not common combinations as selling points.

    Their hope that "this community could be self-sufficient and grow" may not be a goal that is shared by everyone and every rov in the Torah-true world.

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  2. the Monsey TzadikJuly 22, 2009 at 5:39 PM

    More honest than Tropper mega-money produced infomercials.unfortunately rabbi Goldenstein does not have money to have all those choshuv people and pretty Asian and Hispanic girls to be in his video.

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  3. "The purpose of this organization is to improve Jewish observance in Latin America"

    Dear recipients:

    It looks that you have lots of questions and time in your hands about Rabbi Goldstein but have chosen to answer them by pure speculation and vile insinuations all by yourself not doing so would have made this blog truthful.

    for example: you are very contradictory, on one hand fear that this converts want more than just Judaism, (Some good life in America or Israel is your suggestion)but dare ask "why do they need to be sequestered and hidden from other Orthodox Jews on an island beach?". So coming to New York or Israel is a "SIGN" that they are "not genuine" but building their own communities OUT OF THEIR OWN MONEY in their own countries (that is in fact the case)will also bring up your disapproval.

    Judaism needs improvement everywhere (just ask the parents of the hundreds of frum kids that are leaving Judaism every year)but in Latin America is far worse.
    Rabbi Goldstein's work is brilliantly focused in helping serious gerim and fishing out Latin American Jews that want strong and real Judaism. He found lost Israelis that long ago left not to return but he also took converted kids and put them in yeshivas. Those kids in turn helped even born religious kids to grow in Judaism I personally know of such cases.
    "Their hope that "this community could be self-sufficient and grow" may not be a goal that is shared by everyone and every Rov in the Torah-true world."

    You must be,kidding all rabbis to agree?...all they need is one Rav who knows and understand the issue. There are issues here that went past your head among then language, work.
    Acceptance of their children in a cheder or yeshiva, monetary and circumstantial issues. I know that it will be easier to ignore them and never help them in the first place but who will come to judgment and answer to Hashem for doing so? remember they are really genuine they have been pushed hundreds of times you cannot push away a neshama that was in har sinai...So...It will be good for your soul to join Rabbi Goldstein and not only grow out of your shell of ignorance but may actually become an instrument of kidush Hashem and not vice versa.

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  4. Ronen said...

    "The purpose of this organization is to improve Jewish observance in Latin America"

    Dear recipients:

    It looks that you have lots of questions and time in your hands about Rabbi Goldstein but have chosen to answer them by pure speculation and vile insinuations all by yourself not doing so would have made this blog truthful.
    ==============
    seems that you are simply saying trust Rabbi Goldstein. and have some disparaging and condescending comments for those who would dare to raise questions.

    Sorry but we have enough examples of people who are apparently working sincerely for the Jewish people and doing things which are very problematic. In essence RaP is asking for more transparency and raises a number of legitimate questions about the goals and programs.

    The goodness or the beauty of a person's personality are not validations of the halachic correctness of actions nor must something be valid because it makes you feel good.

    We went this route with Rabbi Vinas who is also a fine fellow.

    So if you want to have a serious discussion climb down from your tree. If you feel that you are above reproach and you have no need to explain or defend what you are doing - don't waste time posting on this blog.

    If you wish to educate us - we are truly interested.

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  5. Reminder - anonymous posts are automatically rejected

    ReplyDelete
  6. "seems that you are simply saying trust Rabbi Goldstein. and have some disparaging and condescending comments for those who would dare to raise questions."

    Yes indeed! you must by jewish law trust any jew unless you have a real reason not to that is called "chashad lkasherim". In which case you Must go and ask the people involved BEFORE you get to conclusions. Even more irresponsable and far from the Torah attitude is to put it in public place like the internet. Hence you are in violation of Halacha and comiting an act of chilul Hashem.

    "Sorry but we have enough examples of people who are apparently working sincerely for the Jewish people and doing things which are very problematic. In essence RaP is asking for more transparency and raises a number of legitimate questions about the goals and programs."

    Another violation of Torah principals, Jews NEVER should judge people or cases based on precedent. "Be deliberate in judgement" is the wise advice of the sages. Since Rabbi Goldstein is not here and you have not bother to ask him ,it is you and not him that should be censured.


    "The goodness or the beauty of a person's personality are not validations of the halachic correctness of actions nor must something be valid because it makes you feel good."

    Correct, but "beauty of a person's personality" is a very good begining and since you cannot say anything about violation of Halachah since you have no idea about what Rabbi Goldstein's does or not do, it seems that you decided to violate jewish law because "feels good" to put people down.


    "We went this route with Rabbi Vinas who is also a fine fellow."

    I don't know Rabbi Vinas and have no idea what he has to do with Rabbi Goldstein and his work, again judging from some other irrelevant situation.

    "So if you want to have a serious discussion climb down from your tree. If you feel that you are above reproach and you have no need to explain or defend what you are doing - don't waste time posting on this blog."

    I'm making you unconfortable? should I just seat and see how you have insulted a Ger Tzedek who is a Talmid chacham that has done so much good and do nothing about it?
    so much talk about "Halacha" yea right but 36 Violations of Torah law and untold number of many others all to keep this cynical blog going. You should become a Ger Rabbi!

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  7. Recipients and PublicityJuly 23, 2009 at 3:59 PM

    Goals of R Avraham Goldstein's organization in his own words.

    It is important to focus on the words of this video, much more than the visuals, because it reveals the sweeping "mission statement" of this group ("toiras jesed").

    Following, is the full transcript as transcribed by me. It is in essence a summary of the very lengthy infomercial article that recently appeared in Mishpacha magazine for hire.

    Read it, weigh it in your mind, and draw your own conclusions about the implications if this group actually takes off:

    "Several years ago we started an organization called Toiras Chesed. The purpose of this organization is to improve Jewish observance in Latin America. We have people from all backgrounds especially people who converted to Judaism. We bought a property in Mayaguez, Puerto Rico to accomodate and build a Jewish community to solve this purpose. The place was carefully chosen in a country-like paradise with beautiful surroundings. At the moment we have several families living there and we have plans to build a mikva. Two years ago we had a wonderful hachnosas sefer Torah with the participtaion of the New York Jewish community. We have plans to build a yeshiva and also a winter resort. We are doing this so that this community could be self-sufficient and grow."

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  8. ronen said...

    "seems that you are simply saying trust Rabbi Goldstein. and have some disparaging and condescending comments for those who would dare to raise questions."

    Yes indeed! you must by jewish law trust any jew unless you have a real reason not to that is called "chashad lkasherim". In which case you Must go and ask the people involved BEFORE you get to conclusions. Even more irresponsable and far from the Torah attitude is to put it in public place like the internet. Hence you are in violation of Halacha and comiting an act of chilul Hashem.
    =========
    Your pronouncement are cute but they miss the point. R' Goldstein published an interview in Mishpacha which is considered public domain - at least as much as the interenet. Similarly his video on the internet raises significant questions. There is no prohibition of raising questions on publicly stated views.

    Furthermore to ask what his qualifications are and who backs him are not prohibited.

    ===============
    Another violation of Torah principals, Jews NEVER should judge people or cases based on precedent. "Be deliberate in judgement" is the wise advice of the sages. Since Rabbi Goldstein is not here and you have not bother to ask him ,it is you and not him that should be censured.

    Again a high level of proof from Pirkei Avos. R' Goldstein presented his position publicly - we are simply raising reasonable questions based on what whe have read.
    ========================

    "The goodness or the beauty of a person's personality are not validations of the halachic correctness of actions nor must something be valid because it makes you feel good."

    Correct, but "beauty of a person's personality" is a very good begining and since you cannot say anything about violation of Halachah since you have no idea about what Rabbi Goldstein's does or not do, it seems that you decided to violate jewish law because "feels good" to put people down.


    Wrong again. You are doing exactly what you claim we are doing. Instead of clarifying issues you are simply making arrogant pronouncements as if you were the godol hador. Sorry - I don't buy your views and they are not based on halacha.

    ====================

    I'm making you unconfortable?

    Actually I am embarrassed that you think that you are defending R' Goldstein honor by your tirade and insults

    ===============
    so much talk about "Halacha" yea right but 36 Violations of Torah law and untold number of many others all to keep this cynical blog going. You should become a Ger Rabbi!

    Your crude attacks are not doing anything to advance, bring honor or clarify R' Goldsteins views.

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  9. Ronen - would R' Goldstein approve of your arrogant comments? Did you ask him for his permission to be his defender?

    Perhaps it would been more helpful just to tell him that question have been raised and let him explain his position.

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  10. I don't see anything wrong with the video in fact I loved it!

    It will be nice to have a kosher place in Puerto Rico or any other far place in the world.

    Rabbi Eidensohn,I have a feeling that you keep missing the point.
    It has been explained to you by several people that Reb Goldstein is not acting like you fear. He has his Rav that it as much and as competent as you to guide him.

    Somehow I feel that there will be and endless line of doubt regardless of what they tell you.

    This winter I WILL VISIT THEM.

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  11. "Ronen - would R' Goldstein approve of your arrogant comments? Did you ask him for his permission to be his defender?

    Perhaps it would been more helpful just to tell him that question have been raised and let him explain his position."

    I only represent myself.
    I'm not concerned so much about Rabbi Goldstein as before now I'm more concerned about you. A Rabbi that has taken the position of "police to the jews" but since I know Rabbi Goldstein ,this time I will not let you escape with your cynicism or at least I will expose it!

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  12. Recipients and PublicityJuly 23, 2009 at 6:39 PM

    To ronen of July 23, 2009 1:56 PM

    "ronen said..."

    RaP: Are you sure that "ronen" is not poster Roni/Tropper in another guise? He certainly sounds as if he is on the same level of self-righteousness.

    "you must by jewish law trust any jew unless you have a real reason not to that is called "chashad lkasherim"."

    RaP: But what about the non-Jews, wannabe-Jews and gentiles that this person and organization claim to be reaching out to? Besides, R. Avraham Goldstein and his organization cannot on the one hand submit to a vast EIGHT PAGES lengthy infomercial in Mishpacha magazine for hire, post many articles and links on the Internet, and if someone posts a few questsions asking for more clarifications using the same mmediums as they do, turn around and claim that someone's "privacy" or "proprietorship" is being "violated" or it's being "choshed liksherim" to ask questions on PUBLICLY posted material.

    Almost ALL newspapers and online news sources provide room for reader's responses and questions and where many discussions take place, allowing for a healthy airing of views and concerns and where the authors and defenders of any points of view are free to use reason and logic to counter and defend themselves if need be.

    But to fall back on false "frumkeit" and take the illusory defense of not feeling obliged to answer questions, in spite of the fact that the "toiras jesed" articles, infomercials and PR pieces are foisting and faking as if only "they" know and can be trusted on what is right and wrong both in terms of logic and Halacha, which of course is a very weak and counter-productive point of view that few intelligent and even G-d fearing people will buy into. Ever heard of kabdeihu vechashdeihu?

    It is the height of paternalism to infantalize and preach down to an audience in the name of frumkeit rather than stick to the points under discussion and get some honest answers for some honest questions.

    "In which case you Must go and ask the people involved BEFORE you get to conclusions."

    RaP: What kind of lingo is this that "you Must" do this and that? You MUST also be darn sure of what you are doing if you are launching a massive proselytization drive to ALL of Latin America! It's one thing helping a ger or two that one may meet and who come searching for Yiddishkeit privately and with all due tznius, and it's quite another (very serious) matter to launch big-time efforts to reach out to potentially tens of millions of Hispanics befarhesia who may have a desire or may want to imagine that they have "roots" in the Marranos/Conversos, most of which is pure fairy tales worthy of a Walt Disney fantasy tale.

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  13. Recipients and PublicityJuly 23, 2009 at 6:41 PM

    To ronen of July 23, 2009 1:56 PM

    "Even more irresponsable and far from the Torah attitude is to put it in public place like the internet."

    RaP: More preachiness from the guilty. So then why is R Avraham Goldstein and his organization putting out glossy and shmaltzy infomercials and videos on the Internet and telling the world they have a luxury resort in Puerto Rico at their disposal to host and toast all sorts of people who may or may not be Halachic geirim? Therefore, midda keneged midda the Internet is precisely the best place to have these kinds of discussions because the Internet is the PRIMARY tool and weapon that people like R Avraham Goldstein and his organization (as well as others like Rabbi Tropper & EJF and Shavei Israel & Michael Freund) are using to promote and sell their program and to reach and proselytize to their hoped for audience of gazillions of potential geirim-to-be.

    Just go online and do a search on Google for toiras jesed and on YouTube for toiras jesed and you will see for yourself the open PR they are promoting in places way beyond Puerto Rico, like Colombia and toiras jesed, Venezuela and toiras jesed multiple times over.

    "Hence you are in violation of Halacha and comiting an act of chilul Hashem."

    RaP: Stop the silliness and stop being the "judge" when R Avraham Goldstein is now a PUBLIC personality and he cannot hide behind such silly nonsense.

    By the way, what is the role of:

    1) The Nikolsburger Rebbe (see T'noim Rabbi Goldstein's Daughter (part 1) and T'noim Rabbi Goldstein's Daughter (part 2) and Rabbi Goldstein PLayin the violin, Lechayim, Vort

    and

    2) People in Satmar, see Rabbi Abraham Goldstein dancing with the Satmar Rebbe (Reb Zalma Leib Teitelbaum)?

    Are the Nikolsburgers and the Satmars now funding and paying for R Goldstein's "paradise" retreat in Puerto Rico, underwriting him carte blanche, and in effect becoming a party to his broader visions of reaching out and in effect proselytizing against all Jewish law and lore for over the last 2000 years, to limitless numbers of people in Latin America?

    It makes sense that they may be the ones paying for the infomercials in for-profit magazines like Mishpacha magazine for hire, and funding the luxury retreats in Puerto Rico that serve as holding pens for people wanting to become geirim.

    The Satmars may even be playing according to character because they will fund anything that they view as not helping the Zionists and by keeping the gerim in Puerto Rico and Monsey and paying for it they think that they are somehow doing a great mitzva against the "Tziyonim" -- they are hard to fathom sometimes.

    In addition, lest one forget, Satmars, especially those from Williamsburg, NY do not get put off by Puerto Rican people since they live cheek by jowl with them in Williamsburg and they get along very "heimish" together. There is also tragically two way traffic over there and there are many stories of Satmar kids going off the derech and running off with Puerto Rican boyfriends and gilrfriends and they may see this as a way to save and even bring back their own lost ones (using the code word "airconditioning" as a word to denote "kiruv" or "inreach" perhaps. This is not far-fetched given the realities and toughness of life in Brooklyn.

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  14. Recipients and PublicityJuly 23, 2009 at 6:42 PM

    To ronen:

    "Another violation of Torah principals, Jews NEVER should judge people or cases based on precedent. "Be deliberate in judgement" is the wise advice of the sages. Since Rabbi Goldstein is not here and you have not bother to ask him ,it is you and not him that should be censured."

    RaP: Very funny! R Goldtsein has now made himself into a very public person and he has articles about himself, his goals and those of his organization circulated to millions of people, yet you claim he must be treated as a private citizen who does not effect the klal. Dream on, it doesn't work like that. Not in America at any rate.

    "since you cannot say anything about violation of Halachah since you have no idea about what Rabbi Goldstein's does or not do, it seems that you decided to violate jewish law because "feels good" to put people down."

    RaP: Baloney! R Goldtsein, or better yet, his backers who are setting him up and have yet to be definitively identified, have gone public. The Mishpacha magazine for hire infomercial must have cost someone a LOT of money for so many pages and good PR spin, and whether he likes it or, he cannot now hide behind the type of self-righteous and near-meaningless unthinking outbursts you exhibit here.

    R Goldstein or anyone from his camp can come here and state their views. They will be treated fairly by the blog owner. This is only a blog, it's not a bais din. This is like talking in learning and thinking aloud, only with an audience that can also partake. If R Goldstein wants to live like a normal regular private person he should live like a humble person in the community that wants him and not bother the world with personality-cultlike PR and what seems at this point like overblown and even dangerous agendas to convert who knows how many people in Latin America to his brand of chasidic Judaism.

    "I don't know Rabbi Vinas and have no idea what he has to do with Rabbi Goldstein and his work, again judging from some other irrelevant situation."

    RaP: It's not "irrelevant". This blog has a serious context for this issue and these types of discussions. For example you can review these posts that may help:

    Rabbi Manny Vinas objects to criticism and explains his position (May 20, 2008) that also has working links to seven other posts that concern similar issues like here.

    Rabbi Manny Vinas - part of movement that encourages converts (April 13, 2008)

    Rabbi Vinas' reply - discussed and rejected I (June 18, 2008)

    Rabbi Vinas - the unanswered questions??? (May 21, 2008)

    Rabbi Vinas denies proselyzing - he just encourages non-Jews to explore Judaism (April 13, 2008)

    Rabbi Vinas replies to criticism II (June 17, 2008)

    Christian missionaries' new tactic - blur the distinction between Jews and Christians & Rabbi Vinas (April 13, 2008)

    and a few others that you will find if you will take the time to read the above posts in detail with all their discussions and comments.

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  15. Recipients and PublicityJuly 23, 2009 at 6:43 PM

    To ronen continued:

    "I'm making you unconfortable?"

    RaP: The only one that is uncomfortable in any way here is the one who is creating distractions rather than discuss the issues. Here is your golden chance, use it & don't lose it, and don't preach.

    "should I just seat and see how you have insulted a Ger Tzedek who is a Talmid chacham that has done so much good and do nothing about it?"

    RaP: The infomercials and PR reveal something that goes way beyond one man becoming a ger. This is a geirus machine and proselytization push that is being unfolded (by who EXACTLY? Who is behind it? Nikolsburger Rebbe, Satmar people, who, who?) and launched and you are using the worst sort of defenses to claim "immunity" when people want real answers to what they are reading and finding highly questionable.

    "so much talk about "Halacha" yea right but 36 Violations of Torah law and untold number of many others all to keep this cynical blog going. You should become a Ger Rabbi!"

    RaP: More distractions from you rather than giving clear UN-emotional answers with rational and logical reasoning and facts rather than farfrumte outbursts and condemnations.

    By the way, what's with this shtik of playing the violin and mesmerising people with it? It's sorta reminiscent of the way the late singer Shlomo Carlebach would entrance his audiences and make them forget about his own personal pecadillos and foibles. Music is like a drug and it's a poor answer for those unlike the Nikolsburger and Satmar Chasidim who may be taken in by all the heart-tugging violin playing that evidently goes with this particular brand of proselytization, but that does not fool many others who want real answers for real people. Thanks and much obliged to you!

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  16. the Monsey TzadikJuly 23, 2009 at 10:09 PM

    The people in the movie are dressed in haredi style, mostly litvish with a Chassidic touch. Makes one wonder if r’ Goldstein follows Leib Tropper style meaning no Modern orthodox lifestyle.

    Would r’ Goldsteim follow Leib Tropper footsteps and will nullify the conversion of a convert if she sometimes wears pants, forget her sheitel or want to go to college.

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  17. Any one can put his experience on youtube, there are thousands of Jewish videos of all kind on it but because Rabbi Goldstein is helping converts he or others can`t put videos of his simchas.

    The video only tell us that there is a jewish revival on the island. Is a good piece of information to know that there are jews there,
    personaly I don`t care if the are converts or not. Also Rabbi, you make it seem that it is a terrible thing to have more jews in the world.
    You continue to have a mind set of an alarmist and much of your postings are based on those self induced and invented fears.
    I admire anyone brave enough to have the desire to become jewish.
    I applaud any Rabbi that is wishing to help them.

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  18. There are better ways to see this video of Rabbi Goldstein's organization. Let see:

    "Several years ago we started an organization called Toiras Chesed."


    Wonderful, is always good to have jewish community service!


    "The purpose of this organization is to improve Jewish observance in Latin America."

    Even better, Latin America is in need of fine jewish institutions.


    "We have people from all backgrounds especially people who converted to Judaism."

    so,I will feel also at home regardless of my background but will have to understand that most of the members are converted jews(fine by me).



    "We bought a property in Mayaguez, Puerto Rico to accomodate and build a Jewish community to solve this purpose."

    Pay atention Rabbi! he said to "SERVE" this purpose. So this converted jews bought a piece of land so that they can live as jews in Puerto Rico and provide judaism also to jews like me. WONDERFUL!


    "The place was carefully chosen in a country-like paradise with beautiful surroundings."

    It will be difficult for them to live in the middle of a tropical city like San Juan so they went to the country. As for me I will feel the beauty of the place and help them thru my temporary presence connect them to with the rest of judaism and the jewish world. BRILLIANT!!!!


    "At the moment we have several families living there and we have plans to build a mikva."

    so I should not get an idea that they have it all made! It will take them time to build this dream.
    FAIR ENOUGH!


    "Two years ago we had a wonderful hachnosas sefer Torah with the participtaion of the New York Jewish community."

    That gave me some security because I see that is not just an isolated plan. Rabbi Goldstein brought Rabbis and people from New York so that they can see for themeselves what is being done. ( He does not have to bring the 2 million New York jews to say that the Jewish community of new york came to participate ,my G-d!).


    "We have plans to build a yeshiva and also a winter resort. We are doing this so that this community could be self-sufficient and grow."


    Torah Im Derech Eretz! They get jobs ,help me on my vacation and they have yidishkait in the process. BOLD and FANTASTIC at the same time MARVELOUS!

    I got the point of the video,I don't understand what wrong with this.

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  19. Recipients and PublicityJuly 29, 2009 at 6:18 AM

    "Stanley Rieter said...Any one can put his experience on youtube, there are thousands of Jewish videos of all kind on it but because Rabbi Goldstein is helping converts he or others can`t put videos of his simchas."

    RaP: Ummm, note how quite soon after the THREE above videos (see: "By the way, what is the role of: 1) The Nikolsburger Rebbe (see T'noim Rabbi Goldstein's Daughter (part 1) and T'noim Rabbi Goldstein's Daughter (part 2) and Rabbi Goldstein PLayin the violin, Lechayim, Vort..?") DIRECTLY linking R Goldstien to the Nikolsburger Rebbe in Monsey, they were VERY quickly removed from YouTube and now the message for them reads: "This video has been removed by the user." Why? Why? Why?

    This just makes it all the more probable that the Nikolsburger Rebbe is directly involved with R Avraham Goldstein and his "toiras jesed" organization, which is doing outright proselytization by reaching out activley to gentiles but doesn't want it to come out, because Torah-true Jews and Judaism does not do that kind of thing on an open mass scale.

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  20. Recipients and PublicityJuly 29, 2009 at 7:14 AM

    "N Bronstein said...There are better ways to see this video of Rabbi Goldstein's organization. Let see:"

    RaP: Not if you are being a funny man, as you do in your supposed ill-advised and misinformed commentary.

    "Wonderful, is always good to have jewish community service!"

    RaP: "Toiras jesed" is not doing mere "community service". Reaching out to gentiles en masse is not "community service" for the Jews it is a churban (destruction) of Judaism. While there is nothing wrong in every Jew loving and helping SELECT and INDIVIDUAL true gerim, in fact when the Torah talks in connection with converts over 95% of the time it uses the word "ger" in the SINGULAR denoting that this is not a "mass industry" and while it is true that gerim are significant as individuals that need to be dealt with, but the notion of actively reaching out to millions or tens of millions in Latin America who are bona fide gentiles Halachically and to start to call out to them, seek them out, and create programs and retreats for them to make them into (even) Haredi Jews is nothing but outright proselytization -- the seeking out of gerim -- that goes against Torah Judaism as it has been practiced and observed for over the last 2,000 years.

    "Even better, Latin America is in need of fine jewish institutions."

    RaP: Latin America has many Orthodox rabbis who are very aware of the dessires of many gentiles to obtain Orthodox conversions in large numbers and they have set up many deliberate and strong barriers over the decades to prevent this, and what R Avraham Goldtsien and his backers are doing is trying to break that and create an end-run situation around it and against what the OFFICIAL Orthodox rabbinate has and is doing.

    Please answer these simple question: (1) Is there one single notable Orthodox rabbi anywhere in Latin America who approves 100% of what R Avraham Goldstein, his organization and backers are up to in Latin America? (2) Are there three rabbis who can speak as a bais din from South America to approve of R Goldstein? (3) Is there a consensus among the entire Orthodox rabbinates in all countries in Latin America that welcome what R Goldstein and his "toiras jesed" are doing? If not, why not? Think about it, won't you, and you will begin to see the REAL problem at hand here! ...

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  21. Recipients and PublicityJuly 29, 2009 at 7:16 AM

    To N Bronstein:

    "so,I will feel also at home regardless of my background but will have to understand that most of the members are converted jews(fine by me)."

    RaP: Your personal views are not the subject here, what is at stake is why and who is letting and funding this new proselytizaion drive unfold in Latin America?

    "Pay atention Rabbi! he said to "SERVE" this purpose. So this converted jews bought a piece of land so that they can live as jews in Puerto Rico and provide judaism also to jews like me. WONDERFUL!"

    RaP: Whatever. Stop being silly.

    "It will be difficult for them to live in the middle of a tropical city like San Juan so they went to the country. As for me I will feel the beauty of the place and help them thru my temporary presence connect them to with the rest of judaism and the jewish world. BRILLIANT!!!!"

    RaP: Again, you miss the point. No one is stopping people from having a good time. The issue is that to proseltyize and sell Orthodox/Haredi Judaism (the Reform have been doing for a long time) to limitless numbers of gentiles is not part of Jewish law and lore the way it has been practiced for more than 2,000 at least.

    "so I should not get an idea that they have it all made! It will take them time to build this dream.
    FAIR ENOUGH!"

    RaP: More not to the point observations.

    "That gave me some security because I see that is not just an isolated plan. Rabbi Goldstein brought Rabbis and people from New York so that they can see for themeselves what is being done. (He does not have to bring the 2 million New York jews to say that the Jewish community of new york came to participate ,my G-d!)."

    RaP You are now showing that you can be obtuse and not stick to the main discussion. The critique pointed to outright inaccuracies in the voice-over which you are now only making worse.

    "Torah Im Derech Eretz! They get jobs ,help me on my vacation and they have yidishkait in the process. BOLD and FANTASTIC at the same time MARVELOUS!"

    RaP: You miss the main point, like a chimp that thinks the peel is better than the banana. It is their stated plan to open their doors to ANY AND ALL potential converts and even go out and encourage whoever wants to convert to Judaism which is the issue (that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Rav S.R. Hirsch's view of Torah Im Derech Eretz), or have you not heard or ever learned the facts that Judaism is not a missionary religion and neither undertakes nor condones Christian Evengelical-like missionary mass proselytization efforts. ...

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  22. Recipients and PublicityJuly 29, 2009 at 7:16 AM

    To N Bronstein continued:

    If you want to learn a bit more, this blog is a good place to start leaning about that, see:

    Proselytizing is problematic I - Aruch HaShulchan (January 8, 2008): "(Yoreh Deah 268:6): One should not try to actively encourage any non-Jew to convert. In fact we should discourage conversion as we see in Yevamos (47a): When a non-Jew comes to us and requests that he be converted we say to him, “What is the reason that you want to convert? Don’t you know that the Jews in our times are persecuted and oppressed, despised, harassed and overcome by afflictions?”..."

    Proselytizing is problematic II - Yevamos 109b (January 11, 2008): "Yevamos (109b): R’ Yitzchok said what is the meaning of Mishlei (11:15): He that is a surety for a stranger will suffer for it? That means evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts...That those who accept converts bring evil upon themselves is learned from R’ Chelbo who said: Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore on the skin...Tosfos (Yevamos 109b): Evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts – The Ri explained that that is only when the non‑Jews are proselytized to convert or they are accepted prematurely before they are ready..."

    Proselytizing is problematic III - Obligation to convert is on ger - not beis din (January 18, 2008)

    Kiruv for someone with a Jewish father and a non‑Jewish mother (August 10, 2007)

    Kiruv for non-Jews with Jewish Identity II (August 24, 2007)

    and quite a few others like these if you follow all the links there.

    "I got the point of the video,I don't understand what wrong with this."

    RaP: From your words it's obvious that you swallowed or totally agree with their propagandistic PR spin, but you fail to UNDERSTAND the key problems that are being pointed out in this discussion very clearly so far.

    ReplyDelete

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