Tuesday, July 14, 2009

EJF's hilchos geirus program - what is it's purpose?

It has been claimed by Kanoimpogimbo that his community is being destroyed by rabbis as the result of EJF's welcoming attitude toward interfaith couples. The question is whether EJF in fact encourages the proselytizing of non-Jews who are dating Jews and encourages non-Jews to attend Torah lectures or that these rabbis who are participating in EJF hilchos geirus program have serious misunderstood EJF. Perhaps Roni could explain the purpose of the hilchos geirus program and what it teaches. If in fact these rabbis have misunderstood it, it is obviously necessary to inform R' Tropper that the goals of EJF - in least in this instance - are seriously misunderstood and that he needs to make sure the participants properly understand it. Below is the contract that participants sign. Perhaps R' Tropper should write a public letter condeming their attitude and I would be glad to pass it on and/or publicize it.

26 comments :

  1. I believe at the EJF website that they only engage in helping those ALREADY intermarried to convert.

    This letter does not say anything different. They are teaching people hilchos Gerut so that Rabbis would be aware that Gerut is not a joke, that gerut is serious business and that gerut reuires kabbalat hamitavot liekuva and that it must be sincere.

    Actually Rabbi Tropper addresses the point t of these classes in his blog:



    "Rabbi Tropper, what is the purpose of the learning of hilchos geirus (Jewish Conversion) that is sponsored by EJF (Eternal Jewish Family).

    Rabbi Tropper Responds:


    We discovered that Kollel Members that studied Hilchos Geirus (Jewish Conversion Laws) properly had a better idea of the complexities of Jewish conversion and could identify fraudelent Geirus (Jewish Conversion).

    Over 600 young avreichim have told us how much more serious Geirus (Jewish Conversion) is to them after learning the Sugyos, Rishonim, Achronim, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, etc..

    This is about creating a consciousness regarding the seriousness of Geirus (Jewish Conversion)".

    It is obvious that if the organziation wants to prevent fradulent gerus and wants to have ties with the establishment of kosher batey dinim kavuim and want to have the say of the masses and of the rabbis against the erev rav and fake gerim, they must raise counciussness about the severityof conversion. And this is attained by teahing about it.

    How, this would be misconstrued as a welcoming attitude to prosetyze non jews who are dating JEws is BEYOND me.

    Witgh regards to these rabbis in his town, maybe if he can tell us the name of the rabbis and the twon we would be able hear the story, o find out the second side of the story, to try fix the problem if the problem is due to EJf (which most probably is not -even if he saw that they had a contract from ejf, it does not mean that they actually today work in conjunction with EJf. In fact, AND THIS IS A KNOWN FACT EJF DOES NOT WORK AT ALL WITH HELPING ANY CONVERSION THAT RELATES TO NON JEWISH BOYS FRIENDS OR GIRL FRIENDS!.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I might add: that unfortunately there may be new young rabbis who think that they are doing favors to making these conversions. Some of thme might be driven with the lure of making some money. they would like to establish a beit din of gerut partially for this purpose. They are moreh heter about iit. some of them want to specialize in gerut katan to part of gerut katan and want to become mohalim to be able to make this gerut and in the interim to make some parnassah! They think that they are not responsible for a fake gerut on a child. I know this for a fact as I spoke to an avrech post kollel of BMG! who wouldlike to become amohel for brit gerut as he thinks that he bears no responsibility for this. And in the end he would be part of the Bais din that makes this gerut that according to most posskim it is meaningless and Beit Din has no power to do it if it is clear that this is not a zchus for the parents will not keep torah and mtizvot and the child will not keep torah and mitzvot.

    In any event: There are a lot of young rabbis and some old ones and thier leanings and opinions does not reflect in one bit a known policy of EJf that they do NOT have anything to do with converting a non jewish boy or girl who is dating ajewish boy or girl!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Conversions definitely facilitate intermarriage.

    Compare the intermarriage rate in the Syrian community at 3% vs. the rate of intermarriage within other Orthodox communities which is 6%.
    (http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/WillYourGrandchildrenBeJews/)

    This figure is from 1990. I would guess that it has doubled since then, but I cannot find any more recent scientific research.

    Also this percentage does NOT include marriages in which the non Jewish spouse "converts" in order to marry a Jew which is increasingly more common.

    Again, I believe that if we counted the number of intermarriages among Orthodox affiliated Jews in which one spouse was converted in order to marry that the percentage of intermarriages would be closer to 15-20%.

    So, yes, there is no question, that when conversion for marriage is accepted, it boosts the rate of intermarriage.

    Just as an update. I posted a few weeks ago about the man who left his 40 year old Jewish wife and children for a non Jewish woman.

    His wife and children are in Israel now. The children will not have to go to visitation to the house of their father and his non Jewish lover and they will not have to attend public school as so many others in the same situation have.

    The man came back to the synagogue and was told to leave. He came back a second time and was told to leave again.

    I am aware of a young man who is 25 and who was in a serious relationship with a Hispanic goya.

    He saw this and I know that he broke up with his non Jewish girlfriend because of it. (He told me).

    A takana against conversion for intermarriage DOES prevent intermarriage.

    ReplyDelete
  4. While I believe that it would behoove R' Tropper to condemn the specific actions mentioned by Kanoimpogimbo. I also believe that it would behoove him to investigate to see if these allegations are true and if the name of his organization is being used to do something that is contrary to its and his purposes, as well as to make public his findings.

    Despite that, I still take issue with trying to lay Kanoimpogimbo's community problems at the door of R' Tropper or EJF. It is quite easy for someone to anonymously bombard and bash a Rabbi's reputation. However, other than a contract showing that they are learning hilchot gerut from EJF(Kol haKavod for EJF teaching it as it seems that many rabbis involved in "conversion" have no clue about these halachot), there has yet to be demonstrated a firm connection between the actions of said Rosh Kollel, and EJF.

    I have no problem comming at R' Tropper or EJf from a valid stance of halacha, and taking issue with some of the things that they do based on halacha, when it can be shown that they actually do them. Demonstratively I have taken issue with Roni, R' Tropper's ardent defender, here on this blog many times, again from the position of halacha and what is published and thus public knowledge of EJF's and R' Tropper's activities.

    However, unfounded allegations based on what is at best a loose affiliation(at least as so far demonstrated) in my opinion only serve to detract from the critical debate centered around halacha and the welfare of Klal Yisrael. In fact, in my opinion, it only adds fuel and ammunition to those who wish to simply dismiss the validity of this debate, based on the notion that this blog is a personal attack and vendetta as opposed to a sincere quest for truth leshem shamayim.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Jersey Girl,

    While I agree that your statistics show a remarkable drop, and while the Syrian communities rejection of Geirim in general is legendary. One statistic I would like to compare those with is the rate of assimilation in the Syrian community. Essentially before this specific statistic can have full weight we must know whether they are only counting those that still have involvement and affiliation with that specific community, and if not what are the attrition rates.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Whatever Tropper and the EJF faults are, no one can deny he is a good businessman, he figured out before anybody else that the supply of BT is drying out and found a new source to replace it, the intermarried!

    ReplyDelete
  7. the Monsey TzadikJuly 14, 2009 at 7:52 PM

    I am not sure what is the current EJF curriculum but few years ago it consisted of only few blats in Maseches yevamot and one page from Mishne Torah. Those blats were actually making it very easy to convert (40+, 70+ etc).

    That time it made Tropper looks reasonable (for people who did not know his history), it came as a surprise to some Modern Orthodox rabbis that later he tried to marginalize them, to badmouth them to the Israeli Rabbanut, and revoke conversion for convert who adopted Modern Orthodox lifestyle like wearing pants and threatening another convert who wanted to go to college.

    ReplyDelete
  8. say no to shocadJuly 14, 2009 at 8:45 PM

    Firstly I find it problematic that they are paying local Rabbonim to study their materials, the assumption being without the financial incentive they would not be doing it. It smells to me of shocad.
    Why do these rabbis need to be boki in Hicos garious if according to EJF the gerious is to be done by approved Boti Dinnim - Because the idea of going out and doing keruv on mass to intermarried couples is so outrageous and against thousands of years of tradition
    Many have criticized that they are presenting sources that support only their view and disregarding other that are not favourable. Why have they not included the Tuvious from the Edia?
    What other financial incentives are available that we don’t know about ???

    ReplyDelete
  9. just say no to schochadJuly 14, 2009 at 11:27 PM

    Sadly, Raboisi it has come to this; the ulom espousing this "fallen torah" dont understand the diffence between the kidushas of a jew and goy largly because:
    1.pegam habris
    2. eating M&M's under the illution its cholov yisroel
    3.shaving the beard and payos
    4. reading philosophy
    May the real Jew please stand up!

    ReplyDelete
  10. Recipients and PublicityJuly 15, 2009 at 8:34 AM

    To "just say no to schochad", for your information, the yetzer hora is not just hanging around in people who shave, who eat M&Ms and "read philosophy" etc because no-one reads philosophy nowadays and there are plenty of chalav yisroel only drinkers with long beards and sheine peyos who know how to learn, who also have plenty of serious problems of their own, vehameivin yavin.

    As for Roni: It's always fun watching Roni defend Tropper and EJF at all costs like a lawyer as if he were Jonny Cochran defending OJ, with a see no evil and hear no evil view of Tropper and EJF, always taking the "moral high ground" of "highre/uinversal standards, the usual argument by ultra-machmirim and kanoim that they are "better" because they are machmirim and kannoim, against those who are less strident, more balanced and take the shvil hazahav instead, while he never fails to find faults with any and all accusations and proofs againts Tropper and EJF.

    After all Roni/Tropper couldn't care less what Rav Moshe Shternbuch and the BADATS wrote repeatedly against Tropper and EJF openly finding ways to dismiss them, twist their words and shlog them op. Even tho he does not have any WRITTEN on official letterheads haskomas for EJF from anyone.

    Or any time one of EJF's ads and infomercials on the web is cited that speaks of recruiting literally BILLIONS of gentiles who may have some Jewish descent or wanting to convert MILLIONS of gentiles hitched to Jews and give them ultra haredi EJF-style conversions, then Roni poo-poos it as if that was nothing. He must be writing the script for the confirmation hearing of Ms. Sotomayor who retorts with well-rehearsed indignant self-righteousness every time she is confronted with her own words with a hundred and one deviations.

    By the way, it's gonna be a lotta fun watching all the new allies of Tropper and EJF, like Ohr Somayach, Gateways, Arachim etc discover how fun it will be for them to send the gentile spouses of students for conversion under EJF auspices with Tropper acting as the conversions inquisitor in chief of these people, they are are in for some big surprises when they see what happens to those people under Tropper's watch, it's not gonna be a nice ending for lotsa these people who are going to be taken for the ride of their lives when they discover that they are under the Tropper regime and not under the kindlier and more people friendly rabbis at Arachim, Ohr Somayach and Gateways events. Stay tuned.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Recipients and PublicityJuly 15, 2009 at 9:15 AM

    "LL Cool Jew said... Whatever Tropper and the EJF faults are, no one can deny he is a good businessman, he figured out before anybody else that the supply of BT is drying out and found a new source to replace it, the intermarried!"

    BINGO, LLCool Jew !!! You hit the bull's eye with that correct assessment!

    Indeed this is an excellent point as I have pointed out on this blog exactly one year ago ago in mainly these key posts:

    "http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/kiruv-end-of-kiruv-as-we-know-it.html">Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it! (July 18, 2008): "...once the Reform movement openly accepted patrilineal descent 30 years ago (around 1978) it created a de facto schism with Halacha because until then they had a nominal official acceptance of, and paid lip-service to, albeit hypocritical, a public posture that to be Jewish meant to be born of a Jewish mother and to require "some sort of" conversion. But THAT was no longer required once they ruled for themselves that having just a Jewish father was enough to qualify one to be "Jewish"!..."

    "http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/kiruv-ii-paradigm-change-for-outreach.html">Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers (July 18, 2008): "...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices..."

    R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis (November 21, 2008): "...But what to do when confronted with interfaith couples where the Jewish one needs kiruv and the non-Jew needs conversion?..."

    ReplyDelete
  12. rap, and his broken records and sour chollents,

    he could not go by the three weeks without his irrational outbursts against tropper,

    for brevity:

    1)Tropper's approach is not "Ultramachmirim" and "kanoim" versus the "les strident" "more balanced" "Shvil hazohov";


    It is the shvil hazohov of not covnerting goyim gemurim who do not want to keep basic halachik shabbat, basuic kashrut basic taharat hamishpacha versus those who would convert people who would drive on shbbat, would eat tref, would not keep the basic laws of taharat hamishpacha.

    2) rap's chutzpah to demand that Rt adhere to the kannmousdike and machmir line of Eydah HAcharedit in light os his previous pragraph shows his hypochrisy and irrational hatred at Rt. RT has the backing of gedoyley yisroel of all stripes. In fact, the core point of Rav Sternbuch is rejected by Rav Moshe Feinstein, Henkin, Kamenetsky and Shlomoh Zalman Aurbach and more. In fact, Rt's apporach comes out the more "balanced approach" on this matter!

    3) The hyperbole of BILLIONS being sprinkled by RT deserves no response, just the highlight the level of hyperbole RAP exhibits,

    4) RAp and his cohorts are in for a surprise on the success that EJF is making in undermining the fradulent practices of fradulent dayanim RAP enables and supports. It is ultimately the succcess of EJf that drives the irrational hatred machine of Rap and CO. to the heights of hatred that he imparts on his hateful messages,

    ReplyDelete
  13. Roni wrote:
    2) rap's chutzpah to demand that Rt adhere to the kannmousdike and machmir line of Eydah HAcharedit in light os his previous pragraph shows his hypochrisy and irrational hatred at Rt. RT has the backing of gedoyley yisroel of all stripes. In fact, the core point of Rav Sternbuch is rejected by Rav Moshe Feinstein, Henkin, Kamenetsky and Shlomoh Zalman Aurbach and more. In fact, Rt's apporach comes out the more "balanced approach" on this matter!
    ==================
    Roni you keep repeating this line concerning various gedolim - but all you have shown is that these gedolim have leniencies on certain conditions with intermarried couples or kids with Jewish fathers. Rav Eliashiv - who you asserted provided the leniencies for EJF - has been shown to allow leniencies only when the intermarried couple thought they were Jewish. Rav Sternbuch would agree with that and would allow additional leniencies on a case by case basis. You have not shown by written teshuvos or haskomas that any gedolim approve of your program.

    In sum you have not shown that these gedolim would in fact disagree with Rav Sternbuch and thus your phrase about the Eidah's machmir line - is just rhetoric at this point. You seem to think if you keep repeating this assertion over and over again that this point will someone become accepted. Where is your proof?
    Your embarrassing debacle with Rav Reuven's teshuva is still fresh in our minds.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Roni wrote:
    4) RAp and his cohorts are in for a surprise on the success that EJF is making in undermining the fradulent practices of fradulent dayanim RAP enables and supports. It is ultimately the success of EJf that drives the irrational hatred machine of Rap and CO. to the heights of hatred that he imparts on his hateful messages,
    ===============
    Shame on you Roni - you previously had acknowledged that our motivation might be leshem Shamayim - and now you are going back to the stupid nonsense of "irrational hatred" resulting from tropper's success?
    What happened to you words about the Three Weeks and that you were going to tone down your viscious and vacuous condemnations and zilzul of those who dared disagree with your position?

    ReplyDelete
  15. The Monsey TzadikJuly 15, 2009 at 8:06 PM

    kannmousdike and machmir line of Eydah HAcharedit in light os his previous pragraph shows his hypochrisy and irrational hatred at Rt. RT has the backing of gedoyley yisroel of all stripes. In fact, the core point of Rav Sternbuch is rejected by Rav Moshe Feinstein, Henkin, Kamenetsky and Shlomoh Zalman Aurbach and more. In fact, Rt's apporach comes out the more "balanced approach" on this matter!

    Tropper,

    Again, All those poskim and according to rav Eidenshon rav Sternbuch as well agree that on certain cases converting the intermarried is permitted, no one and again no one is approving your proselytizing campaign, running after them and feeding them and paying them.

    I am not sure about Rav Sternbuch but I do not think he will revoke a conversion because the woman wore pants or prevent a woman to go to acollege. You are just too of a freak in your frumkeit.

    BTW, Did you read the news that Britney Spears is converting to Judaism ?, I am sure your people try to get her to convert with you and have her giving a drasha in your next conference. [...]

    ReplyDelete
  16. DT:" you keep repeating this line concerning various gedolim - but all you have shown is that these gedolim have leniencies on certain conditions with intermarried couples or kids with Jewish fathers".

    But RAP (and you!) keep brining Rav Sternbuch's position which states that even here there should be no leneincy. I was writing and repeating (and will repeat) that please: do not bring Rav Stenbuch into the euation for his position was and is rejected by MOST OF THE GREATEST ACCEPTED POSSKIM in klal yisroel!

    And no, I have read the letters and and pssokim of the Eydah and Rav Sternbuch. Read them again, his rationales for what he writes as an attack EJF applies to TO MOST OF WHAT RAV MOSHE, RAV YAAKOV KAMENETSKY, RAV HENKIN PERMIT! It is similar to what you repeated in the past in the name of Rav ELyashiv by Rav Efrati that we have to cutt of those who intermarried! That rationale and approach shuns any kiruv to anyone who itnermarried even if they approach you!

    I have shown you a month ago, how most of eevery single reasoning by Rav Sternbuch's pssak applies even to those who approach you!

    YOur eresort to your old tone will not make you any more right! you werre wrong in the past; you are wrong now and you will continue to be wrong if you repeat the same old lines!

    I will point out, that your bringing Rav Sternbuch tothe equation is a non starter1 Bring those pssokim into your posts unedited and eveyone will see point by point how they are rekjected by all the above rabbonim. It is funny that you will use them as your asseret hadibross and think I will not challenge their inadequate status for this discussion (especially Rap (And even you) who hypochritically use him, when in fact, what Rav Sternbuch writes indicts MUCH MORE THOSE PEOPLE WHOM he enables!)).

    to be continued

    ReplyDelete
  17. What was embarrasing about Rav ruven's debacle is your inability to be modeh al hoemess that Rav Ruven runs counter the position of the possek you use to rail and wage war at RT!

    What isnot emrassing to me is the fact that Rav Ruven is not stupid as you attempt to make him! Heis very well aware of what goes on in EJF! He is the PREsedentof the halachik committee! He di not resign from that post! He never cirticized RT publicly about his activities and he is aware of them!

    What is shameful that *you* know about it! and yet you would demand a pssak! as if the lack thereof is an idictment of Rav Tropper by Rav feinstein! How can this be when he leads the prganization on halachik mattes? haven't you heard of Halacha Veein MOtrim KEin! that he would not publicly write a public pssak but he still would endorse it by participating and being a partner at the organization?

    What is embarassing and shameful is your acrobatic leaps at a lette by Rav Elyashiv to twist and twist....

    ReplyDelete
  18. "Shame on you Roni - you previously had acknowledged that our motivation might be leshem Shamayim -"

    SHAME ON YOU! for unless you and RAP are the same person!!! (which you denied) I never acknolwedged "leshem shomayim motivation" to his writings! never!!! his writing breath al kol neshima uneshima from sinas Tropper!

    Shame on you! for never asking *him* to apologize for the most vilest remarks! Even now in this post he manages to bring his hate at RT and you did not take in him to task for this! instead you took me to task! sdhame on you! Your leshem shomayim must permeate the other side!

    ReplyDelete
  19. "What happened to you words about the Three Weeks and that you were going to tone down your viscious and vacuous condemnations and zilzul of those who dared disagree with your positi"

    ROni: shame on you! HE writes with such hate at Tropper and I'm not allowed to respond in kind? Is this "three weeks" that you talk about? Let him and you disagree with my position,


    Let me quote one line in Rap's piece of garbage:
    "they discover that they are under the Tropper regime and not under the kindlier and more people friendly rabbis at "! Is this the tone of the "three weeks" THAT IS UNDER YOUR BLOG??? "tropper regime"?? This and many other hatefull venom that is under every senstnece is UNDER YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!

    ReplyDelete
  20. "Again, All those poskim and according to rav Eidenshon rav Sternbuch as well agree that on certain cases converting the intermarried is permitted,"

    Roni: NO, they will not! I read the pssokim and the letters! Most of his rationales reject almost any conversion for an intermarried! Had he not been a tropper fighter, you would be the first to call him a kanoy and all names that you know how to call!


    MT:"no one and again no one is approving your proselytizing campaign, running after them and feeding them and paying them".

    ROni: like a broken record: MOst of RT activites do not relate to running after them. They are mostly done to those whom kiruv workers refer to them!

    It is funny that you would be the first to crticize him for being to "machmir" for not converting them! all of sudden you are really worried about those who meet Rt! You should be more worried about all those "proseltyzed" by some many rabbis you support, who run to make fake conversions for big buck$$$ when they actually are goyim!! they do many more of these conversions thatn the halachik convertees that RT makes!

    Btw, I'm not impressed with the vulgarity you expressed here and at FM (you actually belong to the soney hashem group who hate every single observant jew! join there thatis where you belong!)about BS! Actually the one who may quicker to this job is the rabbi of flatbush whom you suppoort. as long as some 40,000$ are under way she is converted and joins his classes!

    At least credit to Dt for not allowing your piece of vulgarity here

    ReplyDelete
  21. Recipients and PublicityJuly 16, 2009 at 5:08 AM

    One of Roni of July 15, 2009 2:47 PM said...

    "rap, and his broken records and sour chollents, he could not go by the three weeks without his irrational outbursts against tropper,"

    RaP: Which part is "irrational outbursts"? How about when you complain of "broken records and sour chollents" doesn't that sound immature, self-reighteous and defensive? What is this sudden business of the three weeks?, has Tropper done teshuva for all the damage he has inflicted on klal yisroel by launching and advocating mass proselytization under the frumme disguise of preaching about "universal standards" as a code word for imposing the most chumradikke agenda on the masses he is proseltyizing to, worthy of any delusional false messiah complex, and has EJF shut down during this time? Not likely.

    "for brevity: 1)Tropper's approach is not "Ultramachmirim" and "kanoim" versus the "les strident" "more balanced" "Shvil hazohov";"

    RaP: Twist away with words, anyone who has followed you knows that you are a master of this, and that is why you were handpicked for this job of nitpicking with everything on this blog (in other words, you have minus zero credibility as being OBJECTIVE), but it does not help you one bit as you lay down one smoke barrage and smokescreen after another yet again and again in your red-herring style of changing the subject and never answering anything to the point and like a mentsch and bar sechel.

    "It is the shvil hazohov of not covnerting goyim gemurim who do not want to keep basic halachik shabbat, basuic kashrut basic taharat hamishpacha versus those who would convert people who would drive on shbbat, would eat tref, would not keep the basic laws of taharat hamishpacha."

    RaP: All know by now that Tropper and EJF are following the dictates of Rav Eisenstein and they are in cahoots and whose views are not universally accepted as he is not accepted as a posek for all of Klal Yisroel given his record on the hate-filled verbal rampages against the RCA rabbis in America (something the BADATS does not stoop to do because they know their bounds) and Rav Eisenstien's manipulation of Rav Sherman "in the name of Rav Elyashiv" of course (and everyone but Eisesnetein knows that Eisenstein is viewed as MANIPULATING Rav Elyashiv since in his entire career Rav Elyashiv never spoke nor functioned like Rav Eisenstein does now) to throw the entire Rabbanut Bais Din system into chaos by negating the pesakim of other dayanim and batei din (something the BADATS stays clear of because they have no interest in fighting quixotic battles that will not change anything).

    "2) rap's chutzpah to demand that Rt adhere to the kannmousdike and machmir line of Eydah HAcharedit in light os his previous pragraph shows his hypochrisy and irrational hatred at Rt."

    RaP: How ludicrous is this statement! The BADATS of the Eidah Hachareidis does NOT run international campaigns and conferences to recruit rabbis to serve its ends like EJF does. The BADATS and the Eidah knows their boundaries and limits. Everyone knows that they wish to protect whoever is part of their community but they do not have campigns to proselytize to millions of gentiles nor does the BADATS needlessly create wars and friction with HUNDREDS of and the world's batei din who don't agree, rabbis who have different hashkofas, they are too smart for that, unlike Tropper, Rav Eisenstin and EJf who ENJOY striking fear into anyone they can reach and deliberately act to provoke confrontation when noone is bothering them. EJF, Tropper and Rav Eisenstein have lots to learn in both CHOCHMAS HACHAIM and in HALACHA LEMA'ASEH of how to condcut themselves and to know where they fit in in the scheme of things. ...

    ReplyDelete
  22. Recipients and PublicityJuly 16, 2009 at 5:10 AM

    Two of Roni of July 15, 2009 2:47 PM said...

    "T has the backing of gedoyley yisroel of all stripes."

    RaP: Prove it in writing with real haskomas on the letterheads of those that you claim support it including a heter to proselytize as EJF does. Not just jolly rabbis in slick and set-up photo ops as if they were at (their own) fundraising dinners!

    "in fact, the core point of Rav Sternbuch"

    RaP: And to whom you show great disrespect.

    "is rejected by Rav Moshe Feinstein, Henkin, Kamenetsky and Shlomoh Zalman Aurbach and more. In fact,"

    RaP: All deceased long before EJF came on the scene. They would reject mass proselytizations by anyone and EJF/Tropper would be no exception. This is the point that is hidden from the world you think.

    "Rt's apporach comes out the more "balanced approach" on this matter!"

    RaP: Nice curve ball, but as they say, close but no cigar. You can quote all the dead gedolim who would roll over in their graves if they knew what Tropper/you was doing in their name, but it will never amount to a heap of beans because absolutely noone says it's ok to reach out to millions and maybe even billions of goyim as EJF infomercials have repeatedly and proudly claimed.

    "3) The hyperbole of BILLIONS being sprinkled by RT deserves no response, just the highlight the level of hyperbole RAP exhibits,"

    RaP: Really? This is straight from EJF infomercials such as this doozy: Basics of the Jewish Faith: "While nearly one third of the population of the world is considered Jewish or has Jewish ancestry, Judaism is a religion not understood very well by those who don't practice in the modern world. Sure, we know about Hanukkah and Passover, but what are the basic foundations of this worldwide faith. If you've always had questions or curiosities, or are considering conversion and want to know more, most of the time all you have to do is ask...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://eternaljewishfamily.blogspot.com) offers information on Jewish conversion. Art Gib is a freelance writer."

    Or this example: Types of Judaism: "Since the 18th century, the Jewish religion has been open to enlightenment that enabled new interpretation of some of the laws and traditions of the Jewish people...Conservative Jews: Conservative Jews believe in observing the laws and commandments of the Torah, while still believing the law is adaptable to modern culture while still staying true to the concept of a eternal Jewish family. [last link leads to another pro EJF link].

    These type of infomercials do not come about on their own, they are the proof of EJF's PAID by uncle Tom Kaplan global expansionistic proselytization agenda. ...

    ReplyDelete
  23. Recipients and PublicityJuly 16, 2009 at 5:11 AM

    Three of Roni of July 15, 2009 2:47 PM said...

    "4) RAp and his cohorts are in for a surprise on the success that EJF is making in undermining the fradulent practices of fradulent dayanim"

    RaP: Roni/Tropper are proud of their false bravura and phony declarations of war on everyone they hate and dislike in 1984 mode. They live under the illusion that the entire Jewish and Orthodox world will tremble and fall at their feet. At least the BADATS is NEVER so arrogant and stupid to launch wars against the entire world of aany and all Orthodox rabbis or organizations who do not see it the Tropper Rav Eisenstein my-way-or-the-highway tactics.

    Tropper proves when he insults every Rov in the Midwest on his new "blog (where he spends his time talking to himself), and Rav Eisenstein proved it multiple times when he attacked the RCA rabbis at the first EJF concerts and keeps on pushing Rav Shrerman to act as his attack dog in Israel so that now even Rav Amar realizes the danger and has ordered Sherman to stop his disruptive acts that don't improve anything except create more friction with the Religious Zionist rabbinate in Israel and the RCA and moderate Haredi rabbis in America.

    "RAP enables and supports."

    RaP: RaP does not enable anyone, if anything, RaP has given Roni/Tropper too much attention and enabling Tropper/Roni way beyond what they deserve in the true proportions of the real world.

    "It is ultimately the succcess of EJf that drives the irrational hatred machine of Rap and CO."

    RaP: Succes at what? Spending tens of millions of other people's money to bring hundreds of rabbis to concerts where Tropper can grandstand and Eisenstein can issue hateful messages at EJF concerts in America while in Israel they set up Rav Sherman to do the same. This is nothing to be proud of and will not gain the results that Tropper/Eisenstein/EJF are seeking. It will only make people dig in their heals deeper and make changes harder to bring about in a non-dictatorial and consensual manner befitting bnai Torah and NOT Ayatolas imitating the Taliban.

    "to the heights of hatred that he imparts on his hateful messages,"

    RaP: Just read over all your words since you came on board this blog and anyone impartial can see that you are the one with hate and venom for anyone who does not see it the Tropper/EJF my-way-or-the-highway.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "At least the BADATS is NEVER so arrogant and stupid to launch wars against the entire world of aany and all Orthodox rabbis or organizations who do not see it the Tropper Rav Eisenstein my-w",
    but they were not smart to fight an organization that has the support of all segments of the orthodox world! and And for your misinformation; they have not come out against the attitude of "my way or the highway"; actually they agree with that part of the organization. This is written black on white that they acknowlege that EJf is making tikkunim in gerut! which is the part that you mostlyhate, for your enablers have minimized their incomes since that happened!

    Andabout "my way or the highway", it would behoove you to practice what you attmpt to preach so that you would dscover that your way of "my way or the highway" that Tropper's position is out of the window does not get you nowwhere. No one listen to any of your critcisms when they see the irrational hatred spewed from your pen.

    At the end it is the success of EJF making kposher gerim that undermines the business of the phony rabbis that partake the money with you about those false converts is the real reason behind the hatred. Keep them coming and as I said a while ago:

    YOU ARE MY BEST DEFENSE!

    ReplyDelete
  25. rAP'S LONG REPETITIVE BORING SOUR CHOLLENTS ALA THE THREE WEEKS FLAVOR!

    RaP: Prove it in writing with real haskomas ..."

    SOme breivty to cut the NADA ZILCH IN HIS LONG CHOLLENT TREATISES: THe biggest Haskamah is Rabbonim SPEAKING ABOUT ORGANIZATION AND SAYING THAT THEY SUPPOR IT! Another Haskamah is Rav Ruven being PART OF THE ORGANIZATION "PRESIDENT OF THE HALACHIK COMITEE"!

    "in fact, the core point of Rav Sternbuch"

    RaP: And to whom you show great disrespect.

    "is rejected by Rav Moshe Feinstein, Henkin, Kamenetsky and Shlomoh Zalman Aurbach and more. In fact,"

    RaP: All deceased long before EJF came on the scene. They would reject mass proselytizations by anyone and EJF/Tropper would be no exception. This is the point that is hidden from the world you think".

    Roni: As said you cannot follow or comprehend anything! THey support conversion of a intermarried couple! RAV Sternbuch rejects that. They reject his position.

    "Rt's apporach comes out the more "balanced approach" on this matter!"

    RaP: Nice curve ball, but as they say, close but no cigar. You can quote all the dead gedolim who would roll over in their graves if they knew what Tropper/you was doing in their name,"


    Roni: The GEdolim would thank him and kiss his feet when they see that he udermined your partners and enablers for taking in the real EREV RAV GOYIM AS YIDDEN FOR E$$NAN ZONAH MONEY!

    "3) The hyperbole of BILLIONS being sprinkled by RT deserves no response, just the highlight the level of hyperbole RAP exhibits,"

    'RaP: Really? This is straight from EJF infomercials such as this doozy:..."

    Roni: and the rest of his bobbeh mayssehs. What counts are the facts on the ground. EJf converts per capita less than Bomzer and other sleaze and fake dayanim! They actually slow the "mass factories" that you produced!

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.