Friday, October 17, 2008

Anusim II - Demand recognition and acceptance

While I obviously don't agree with the following comment, but at least it clearly expresses what the issue is. Are the Anusim - not Jews unless they can satisfy the conditions of halacha or are they Jews even though they haven't been recognized according to the halacha? Since you insist that the discussion until now is not acceptable - would you please tell us what you think is the acceptable way for the Jewish community to deal with it? In other words are you saying anything more than the Jewish community has no right to pass judgment on your Jewish status?
drew's comment to "Anusim - Demand recognition and acceptance":
(quote from a previous post)...His family traditions do not constitute proof. Thus he is not a Jew but can't prove it. He is simply not a Jew until he proves it.
As another person in this situation, I will make this very brief. Debating this very serious issue will do us no good if its done in this way. You can't judge us because you are not in our place. You can't say people like us aren't Jews. I assure you, we go through our own doubts without your help. It is total pain. (don't try and use what I just said as leverage to say I myself don't know who or what I am, because again, you are not in this place.) The fact is, its not that we aren't Jews, its that "halachically we can't be recognized as Jews". That's it.

I understand what this means and the suffering it entails, and if anyone else in this situation doesn't understand it, they need as well. However, those of you who are blessed in the way that your Jewishness is "halachically" valid, in that it is halachically revealed, need to understand this. you can't just say "you are not a Jew". living like this is our golus. we suffer enough. This all leads to something much bigger than we all can see right now.

Good Moed
concealed...still...but trusting in HaShem...still.
2nd comment
drew's comment to "Anusim IV - Customs are proof of being Jewish?":

i just read that you already formally converted. you're still here though making comments about your past. i stand by you...sorta.

unfortunately you won't find the compassion you are looking for but its because you need to look soley to HaShem. you could say "my great grandfather wrote a Torah scroll and mezzuot"...and the reality'll most likely hear that he was a muslim who could have been selling forgeries. i've been through it all myself. its so amazing how people look at the glass half empty instead of saying "wow, HaShem kept/brought this soul here in this way, through all this disaster, this soul is here, this spark is rising".

as jersey girl said, muslims bury nails....but guess do jews. youre told prior to conversion "you are not a jew". fact is...prior to conversion, "halachically", you could not be recognized as a jew, otherwise we throw out the system of halacha and there goes all the order...G-d forbid.

hard advice is, dont look for help, compassion, or understanding from anyone on this except for HaShem. use the pain to make you daven with exceptional kavanah.

you ended up converting...there is no question now, your soul was at were right all along.

Good Moed
3rd comment
drew's comment to "Rabbi Vinas' reply - discussed and rejected I":

out of curiosity....doesnt anyone have faith in the fact that this redemption will be tremendous and that HaShem will return all the sparks that have been lost? thats what bothers me the most about all this. a terrible thing you dont see how great HaShem is. maybe we just dont understand how HaShem is working. if you have all the answers...then be Moshiach and return us to our King cause its torture living like this. realize that we are scattered all over the place and we need HaShem to deliver us. instead of saying we aren't jewish...pray to HaShem to return all that are and be sensitive to us and those trying to help us. its nice and easy with papers saying youre a jew...all doors are open. you have no clue what this is like. i pray HaShem helps you cause at the end of it all, its not paper that makes us jewish, but the neshama that is not bound by the limitations of this world. aren't we supposed to be as numerous as the stars??...the people in this situation are such a small number...people act like every person in the world is saying this. why don't we look at commitment to Torah. regardless of barrier, we are here.


  1. I find it extraordinary that anyone would suggest that someone potentially descended from conversos should not be treated as a Jew lechumra. No serious Jew ought to risk, e.g., asking them to do a melacha on Shabbat in circumstances when we may ask a non-Jew to do this. Furthermore, there are many mitzvot bein adam lechavero that are affected by this. The most obvious one that comes to mind is ribit, interest, but there are certainly many other negative and positive ones.

    Furthermore, suppose that such a person has a genuine doubt that he or she is descended from conversos. How can we in good conscience tell them that they don't need to live a Jewish life? If they are in fact Jewish then they are committing many aveirot daily. I suppose you could say that they are beshogeg, but surely it is better for them to resolve the situation by converting and leading a Jewish life.

  2. its not that the discussion is unacceptable. the problem is simply individuals in such circumstances can't be written off. to say someone isnt jewish means its known where they come from. to say halacically they cant be recognized as jew is the reality we are dealing with. was Moshe always who he was, or did he become that when he found paperwork?

    i have complete faith that HaShem will gather us from wherever we are.

    how to deal with the situation now? someone like me has to stick it out until Moshiach comes or i have to convert. for those halachically recognized as jews, simply know we exist. i'm sure there are plenty of jews in all sorts of situations. to say we aren't jews is saying you know where we come from. i don't think thats what anyone is saying. i think what is being said is that halachically, these types of individuals cant be recognized as jews. this, is something we ourselves who want to return to the fold have to understand. it doesnt make the halachiclly recognized community wrong for not recognizing us. if you broke the rules for us, i wouldn't want to be part of the community. we keep Torah.

  3. Drew wrote:
    to say we aren't jews is saying you know where we come from. i don't think thats what anyone is saying. i think what is being said is that halachically, these types of individuals cant be recognized as jews.
    I don't deny that you are in pain. But pain is not the basis for deciding whether someone is Jewish.
    You are saying I have no ability to say you aren't Jewish [and that is exactly what I am saying] - only that you aren't recognized as a Jew by halacha. Where did you get such an idea? Is there any competent recognized rabbi who is telling you this or did you make it up yourself? Don't you understand how bizarre it is for you as an outsider telling the Jewish community how we are allowed to describe your Jewish status? Who told you that when Moshiach comes he will acknowledge you as a Jew? It is time for you to understand that your fantasies don't determine reality. If you jump off a building, you can't avoid the law of gravity even though you don't think it is fair.

  4. so let me make sure i understand this. if my mothers mothers mothers mother was jewish, but i don't have a piece of paper saying she is, i'm not jewish? or is it because of the lack of this paper to authenticate the facts that i must be viewed, halachically as a non-jew? cause it appears to me that since the paperwork isnt there, my neshama wouldnt just disappear. anything is possible, so maybe i'm wrong. but why does HaShem say He will return us no matter where we are? how is it that every now and then a person finds out that they are jewish when previously they didnt know? does them having a person show them on paper that they are jewish all of a sudden place a jewish soul in them at that moment, or was that neshama always there and in need of being woke up? as for Moshiach, yes, Moshiach will settle disputes.


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