Different paths to the Final Redemption or civil war?

Jersey Girl wrote:

Among my extended family in Israel, even the most secular (who are QUITE non religious) are cheering the Sherman Psak. They are sick of living in crime ridden neighborhoods populated by anti Semitic goyim.

Not one person I know in Israel (and I have been on the phone quite a bit lately) is shedding a tear that anti Semitic pigs who have made life in many Israeli neighborhoods unbearable could be sent back to where they came from.

The only people who seem to be upset about this are Americans, Evangelical Christians and Jews who have a vested interest in sanctioning intermarriage.

Perhaps any of the above should go live in Bat Yam, Ashdod, Askelon, Haifa, Taveria etc to try to live with these "gerim Tzadekim".

My friend who lives there said to me this morning "After your sister is raped (G-d forbid), your brother beaten in the streets (G-d forbid), there are swastikas on the shul, insult is added to injury when you know that the government is supporting these people as "Jews" while genuine Jewish children go to sleep hungry, THEN TELL ME HOW WRONG IS RAV SHERMAN???"

Right now among residents of neighborhoods populated by Russians, Rav Sherman will be celebrated right next to Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai ztl at the Hilula this year. Seriously.

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Recipients and Publicity responded:

Jersey Girl says: "Among my extended family in Israel, even the most secular (who are QUITE non religious) are cheering the Sherman Psak. They are sick of living in crime ridden neighborhoods populated by anti Semitic goyim."

Since Jersey Girl has already openly informed us all that she is of Moroccon parentage, it is no surprise that she seems to think that the chorus coming from all manner of Sefardim "cheering the Sherman psak" as if FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING they were lehavdil Palestinians cheering on Saddam's scuds falling on Tel Aviv, so that this is quite obvioulsy nothing to do with Halacha but is more of a reflection of the cultural divide and known animosity between the "have not" Israeli Sefardim and the highly succesful Russian olim, among whom happen to be a huge number of non-Halchic Jews as well. As for gangs on the street, the Sefardim invented them, like groups that belonged to the the "Black Panthers" in Israel (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panthers_%28Israel%29 )long before the latest crop of Russians even set foot there.

Let's try to be totally fair for one minute, and not paint the Sefardim as the "unsung heros" of Israel, which they are far from being, and the Russian Jews with their associated non-Halachic brethren as demons deserving to be exorcised as if they were iredeemable "filth" which they are not because on the human level, the Russians as a whole have a huge advantage over the Sefardim and that is why they are of such benefit to the state of Israel: They are generally highly educated, well versed in science, mathematics and technolgy and are able to adapt to the manner of functioning in a Western democracy and making for successful memebers of an advanced technological society in the information age, whereas the Sefardim of Israel tend to be not like this: They are more traditional and have a stronger love of Judaism and tradition but they tend to be less amenable to modernisation and often fall into their old superstitious ways and they are very jealous of the Russians who have come from Communist system in the former USSR but have progressed quickly in modern Israeli society whereas the Sefardim tend to languish in poverty and anger due to their past cultural sterility of having lived in the objectively backward Arab lands.

These are some things that need to be recognized before one veers off into discussions about how "great" the Sefardim are in relation to the "bad" Russians.

And as for comparing Rav Sherman to Shimon bar Yochai, as Jersey Girl does, I think that she conveniently is jumping the gun and forgetting that Lag Ba'Omer was when the plague that killed Rabbi Akia's students stopped, and the Jewish sages say that one major reason they died out was that they did not honor each other (lo nehegu kovod ze beze) and it would seem (based on the criticism of leading rabbis such as Rav Aharon Lichtenstein) that the way Rav Sherman went about denigrating Rav Druckman in order to arrive at his pre-ordained view in any case (Rav Sherman's and Rav Eichenstein's people have been fishing for a while to come up with a convenient excuse to do what they did and they found it) but to personally attack and defame Rav Druckman and others like him (based on ideological and not Halachic reasons) sounds more like the horrid behavior of Rav Akiva's students towards each other, that tragically brought about their death and the subsequent mourning during the Sefira, rather than the example of Rav Shimon bar Yochai and his son who exemplified living in peace in the confines of a narrow cave for 13 years.

Conversion crisis update

Summary and update of the present situation by Jerusalem Post

Religious affairs: G-d only knows where this will lead

by Matthew Wagner , THE JERUSALEM POST May. 15, 2008

A high-ranking source in the rabbinical courts said this week that the recent controversy over conversions, pitting rabbi against rabbi, has devastated the rabbinical establishment.

"I don't know if we will ever fully recover from this fiasco," he said.

[...]

But Sherman's most severe accusation was apostasy. He said that Druckman intentionally converted gentiles, even though he knew they would never adhere to Halacha, willfully transgressing the God's will.

This was a blatantly evil act, no matter how you looked at it, argued Sherman. If Druckman seriously believed that the gentiles he was converting were being transformed into full-fledged Jews, then he was committing the sin of placing a stumbling block before the blind. The instant these converts emerged from the ritual bath, God would expect them to eat only kosher food, keep Shabbat and adhere to a multitude of other commandments.

If these converts would not adhere to the Orthodox law, claimed Sherman - who said Druckman knew they would not - these converts would receive heavenly punishment like any other wayward Jew.

On the other hand, if Druckman's conversions were not valid, as Sherman claimed they weren't, Druckman was permitting gentiles to intermarry with kosher Jews, a colossal assimilation disaster that would destroy the purity of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel.

Either way, Sherman said, Druckman was unfit to preside as a judge. And since a panel of three kosher rabbinic judges was an integral and necessary part of the conversion process, any gentile whose conversion was overseen by Druckman had never really converted.

[...]

Sherman's attack also received the backing of the haredi daily, Yated Ne'eman, which has been spearheading a campaign against the Conversion Authority for years. Haredi rabbis are fundamentally opposed to the creation of a separate rabbinical body that specializes in making conversions as easy and user-friendly as possible. Rather, these rabbis believe that conversions should not be encouraged, but should be performed only in extraordinary situations, when the prospective convert is sincerely interested in embracing all Orthodox strictures.

But many secular Jewish leaders and religious Zionist rabbis see mass conversions as the best solution to the threat of intermarriage posed by the presence of about 300,000 non-Jewish Soviet immigrants and their offspring. These immigrants are fully integrated in public schools, the IDF, the universities and the labor force. Even secular Jewish leaders who do not accept Orthodox strictures in their day-to-day lives are strongly convinced of the danger to Jewish continuity posed by these gentiles if they are allowed to meet Jewish Israelis, fall in love and get married without being converted.

Religious-Zionist rabbis believe it is possible to encourage conversion among non-Jewish immigrants while maintaining the highest halachic standards. These rabbis have to juggle two competing goals: converting as many non-Jews as possible to prevent intermarriage, while uncompromisingly adhering to the demands of Jewish law which dictate that a prospective convert must be willing to embrace Orthodoxy.

Haredim, in contrast, are convinced that conversions can never be the solution to the threat of intermarriage, because for the vast majority of gentiles, adopting a strictly Orthodox lifestyle is simply not realistic. The only guarantee against intermarriage, argue the haredim, is maintaining strict separation from secular Israeli society.

Sherman's decision, though more aggressive in its wording, was just another salvo in the ongoing argument over conversions between haredim and religious Zionists. But it also defined more clearly the delineation between the warring camps, and it placed Chief Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar squarely on the side of the religious Zionists.

Although Sherman's rabbinic invective focused mainly on Druckman and his former deputy, Rabbi Yosef Avior, the attack was also indirectly aimed at Amar, who is the overriding halachic decisor supervising conversions performed by the Conversion Authority. If, as Sherman claimed, thousands of converts were passing through the Conversion Authority in a non-kosher way, without any intention of adhering to Halacha, Amar could not escape culpability.

Immediately after the publication of Sherman's decision, Amar released a terse press release saying that he backed Druckman, and that all conversions performed by Druckman or by the authority would be recognized.

However, so far, Amar has refrained from addressing Sherman's specific accusations, one of which is that Druckman signed off on documents attesting to the fact that he was present at conversions when in reality he was not.

As a result, dozens of city rabbis who have read Sherman's claims against Druckman are hesitant to register converts for marriage. City rabbis, who as part of their job also serve as marriage registrars in their respective cities, are responsible for determining the Jewishness of couples who come before them with a request to marry.

Several rabbis told the Post this week that if a convert came to them to register for marriage they would have to consult with Amar first.

A near anarchic situation has been created in which one arm of the official, state-funded rabbinate, the High Rabbinical Court, is attacking another, the Conversion Authority - while the chief rabbi, who is the ultimate authority of both, is torn in half, and has yet to issue a definitive stand on the issue.

[...]

Impact of Russian aliyah on Israel society II

The following is an article published in the Wall Street Journal op/ed section

It was written by Evan Goldstein editor of Moment magazine

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The Power of the Gatekeepers
The difficulty of converting to Judaism in Israel.

BY EVAN R. GOLDSTEIN
Friday, April 13, 2007 12:01 a.m.

Last year approximately 2,500 immigrants to Israel from the former Soviet Union began their conversions to Judaism. The official Orthodox framework--the only one recognized by Israeli law--typically takes about 10 months and involves studying Jewish law and thought, navigating an intricate bureaucracy, and adopting an Orthodox lifestyle, including strict adherence to kosher dietary laws and observance of Jewish holidays. The process culminates in a visit to the beit din, or rabbinical court, where the potential convert's knowledge of Jewish history and practice is probed.

It turns out that of the roughly 2,500 Russians who began their conversions last year only about 940 successfully completed the process. This sparse result has triggered the latest battle in the long-running war over conversion in Israel. In the last decade of the 20th century, a wave of some one million immigrants from the former Soviet Union arrived in Israel. Though one-third were not recognized as Jewish according to rabbinic law, primarily because their mothers are not Jewish, all were granted Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, which has a more expansive definition of who is a Jew and thus entitled to live in Israel.

For the roughly 300,000 Israeli citizens from the former Soviet Union who are not recognized as Jews by the chief rabbinate, a state-financed academy was created to ease their path to conversion. Benjamin Ish-Shalom, who directs the Institute for the Study of Judaism, alleges that the grinding pace of Orthodox conversions is due to the courts' excessively rigid standards: e.g., demanding that women wear only long skirts or that converts move to more Orthodox neighborhoods.

[...]

The prospect of a permanent class of inferior status half-Jewish or non-Jewish Israelis raises the ugly specter of an Israel increasingly divided by hierarchical definitions of Jewish authenticity, and it has bred a dangerous sense of alienation in certain precincts of Israel's Russian immigrant community. According to a recent study, 48% feel more "Russian" than "Israeli."

In an effort to address this looming threat, the Ministry of Absorption and Immigration recently launched a marketing campaign aimed at encouraging non-Jewish Russian Israelis to undergo Orthodox conversions. The outreach effort has led to a modest spike in interest, but there is every reason to believe that interest will remain modest.

[...]

Impact of Russian aliyah on Israel society I

To help clarify the context of the debate of conversion - primarily for Russian immigrants I will be posting excerpts from articles describing the nature of these immigrants and their position in Israeli society.


The following excerpts are from an article Israel’s Soviet Immigrants written by

Dr Neill Lochery, Director of the Centre for Israeli Studies at University College London, has been conducting research on the impact of Russian immigrants on contemporary Israeli politics. Below, he considers the degree to which they have become assimilated within Israeli society and their influence on the political agenda.

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[...]

Regarding the question of who is a Jew, the arrival of the highly secular Soviet immigrants (over 65 per cent of whom claim to be non believers) has led to a crisis in establishing the criteria for who is a Jew. And, more importantly, who is not. The ultraorthodox party Shas, which has been involved in a decade-long battle with the political leadership of the Soviet immigrants for control of the Ministry of the Interior (important for the distribution of state funds), claims that many immigrants from this Aliyah are not even Jewish. This is an ongoing debate within Israel with little sign of resolution. In response, leaders such as Sharansky have called for the ultra-orthodox to do national service in the Israeli army
[...]

Like immigrant groups before them, the Soviets have had to suffer their fair share of jibes from veteran Israelis. Off the cuff comments from two serving Israeli Ministers in the Rabin administration illustrate the crux of the problem. Ora Namir labelled the Aliyah as one third prostitutes, one third social needs and one third single mother families. While Moshe Shahal characterised the group as the Aliyah of the Mafioso. To a certain extent, each Aliyah that arrived in Israel since the 1950s has faced similar comments. The Orientals were attacked for being slow and backward – but the immigrants from the FSU have faced much harsher attacks. Evidence, however, suggests that there is some truth in the thinking behind the charges that the ministers made. The vast majority of Israel’s thriving prostitution and pornography sector is run by the Soviet Mafia using girls that have entered Israel under the guise of making Aliyah – the major client base includes Arabs who cross from as far away as Amman in Jordan to have sex in the brothels of Tel Aviv and other Israel cities. Organised crime syndicates are big in Israel – the vast majority of them can be traced back either to the Soviet Union or to immigrants from the FSU either based in Israel or overseas. These groups tend to use Israel’s extremely liberal currency controls to launder money from criminal activities in the Soviet Union. There are also a number of drug cartels that use Israel either as a place for selling drugs, or as a halfway house for the export of drugs to Europe. Initially, Israeli police were slow to mount credible investigations into such activities, but recent political pressure following high profile shootings and bombings in Tel Aviv involving rival gangs have led to a more robust response from the Israeli police often working on conjunction with their Russian and Ukrainian counterparts.
[...]

Jews for Judaism explains Christian missionary tactics

Jersey Girl submitted the following:

According to Rabbi Michael Skobac, Education Director of the Toronto branch of Jews for Judaism, founding Director of the New York Branch of Jews for Judaism, as well as a consultant to the New York Jewish Community Relations Council Task Force on Missionaries and Cults from 1987 until moved to Toronto in 1991:

“Not all missionaries wear “Jews for Jesus” T-shirts, distribute religious tracts or wave the New Testament. Most evangelism is far more subtle. Many groups seeking to missionize Jews will insist that they have no such agenda, and instead they choose a more indirect route.

Two guiding principles drive their evangelism. Firstly, they assume that Jewish people resist the Christian message because Jews have been turned off as a result of 2,000 years of hostility by many of Jesus’ followers. If only these Evangelicals could get us to realize that “real” Christians love Jewish people, we’d find the Gospel irresistible.

Secondly, they sense that a great number of Jews have a very weak connection to Judaism, and that those who do affiliate with Judaism are expressing their culture or ethnicity, but possess little spiritual depth. They sense that many Jews may recite prayers out of a book during services, but will probably never speak to G-d in their own words once they leave the synagogue.

Deeply spiritual Christians feel that if Jewish people are exposed to their profoundly personal relationship with G-d, they will certainly, in the words of the New Testament, be “provoked to jealousy” and ultimately convert (Romans 11:11-15)".

For example, according to Rabbi Skobac:

Joe Dean, founder of an American Christian Zionist group has said:

“By standing with the Jewish people in love and support, we can provoke them to jealousy, as the apostle Paul said, so as to win them to Christ.

Not by cramming the Gospel down their throats, but by showing that our faith produces faithful works. I have told the Jewish agencies that we are not an evangelical group as such, and this is true. We are not actively trying to win Jews over to Christ—but by taking this stand, the Jewish people don’t run away from us, and we are able to witness to them indirectly,” he said.

Frank Eiklor, head of Shalom International, works tirelessly fighting anti-Semitism and drumming up support for Israel. He bristles at any suggestion that he has hidden agenda. Needless to say, fund-raising letters to his supporters tell another story:

“I want to see Christians wake up and stand up for the Jewish people. Only then will Jews be impressed and one day want Jesus as their Messiah! The key to Jewish hearts is unconditional love. More Jewish people are loving Jesus today than at any time in history, and we’re told that our ministry is a big reason for that happening,” he wrote.

Jan Willem van de Hoeven, of the Jerusalem-based International Christian Embassy, has insisted that converting Jews is anti-Christian.

“Jesus and the apostles didn’t seek to make their fellow Jews ‘Christians,’ but to make them ‘better Jews,’” he said.

In an interview with the New York Times, Mr. van de Hoeven explained that those Jews who are converted under his group’s influence “remained faithful to their roots and to Israel.” How does he square converting to Christianity with faithfulness to Judaism?

In Canada, Christians for Israel is one of about a half-dozen similar pro-Israel organizations. They seek to educate Christians about two vital issues. Firstly, the importance of the return of Jewish people to Israel is a major sign pointing to the “end times,” and secondly that Christians must oppose anti-Semitism around the world and work to support Israel and Jewish people everywhere materially and spiritually.

One of their major efforts has been to partner with Exodus Project to assist Jews in the Ukraine in immigrating to Israel. Is there an agenda behind their admirable projects? Their publication, Christians for Israel Today, constantly speaks about how these good works will “provoke the Jews to jealousy.”

For Jews, this is a troubling refrain, especially in light of its New Testament implications.

At a Christians for Israel program, Rev. Willem Glashouwer gushed as he described how Christian volunteers for the Exodus Project “shared the love of Jesus” with homebound Jews.

Paul Wilbur, a “Hebrew Christian” recording artist, exulted as he described how “one of my dear friends is in Haifa today, to establish a Russian-speaking congregation to receive these immigrants.”

They’re clothing these immigrants with a ministry called “Tests of Mercy” and they’re bringing them into the salvation knowledge of Yeshua, he said.

“In Odessa in the Ukraine, three years ago in just three days we saw over 30,000 Jewish people come to know Jesus! They’re getting on the Christians for Israel buses and coming back to the land of Israel. The word of G-d says, ‘How can they believe unless someone preaches, and how can he preach unless he is sent?’ We can’t send ourselves, but you can send us,” he pleaded.

Leading “messianic rabbis” were also featured guests on a Christians for Israel cruise. The magazine, Christians for Israel Today included a full-page ad for the “Hebrew Christian” missionary program to honor the 50th anniversary of Israel that took place in Orlando.

Rev. John Tweedie, Vice-President of Christians for Israel International assured me that his organization will no longer include “Hebrew Christian” leaders in their programs. Was this a principled decision based upon their opposition to such groups, or simply a tactical move to appease the Jewish community?

Should we be concerned about the motivations of Evangelicals who extend themselves on behalf of Israel and Jewish people? If we don’t place any stock in the multitude of Christian speculations about various apocalyptic developments, who cares if they believe that their support of Israel will hasten the Rapture or the Battle of Armageddon?

However, if we suspect that they are “making nice” in order to lubricate the conversion process, why should we play along?

Most Jews lack the vital knowledge to penetrate the Christian Zionists’ rhetoric and “unconditional love.” And as a result we are ALL at risk of being “provoked to jealousy” which will lead to their (or their grandchildren’s) possible conversion to Christianity.

A different perspective - Itamar Ross defends the RZ/MO viewpoint

The following letter is a cogent attack on the Chareidi viewpoint. Because most of the criticism from the RZ/Mo in the present crisis has not dealt with the issues but rather just expresses their outrage and pain - this presentation is welcome. While I do not endorse his solutions - he defines the issues that we all ultimately need to address. It was originally left as a comment to "Messianic Jews are accepted as Jews for Law of Ret...":

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Rabbi Eidensohn, actually this has not been the least bit unnoticed. Not by Rav Druckman or by anyone who lives with and deals with immigrant society in Israel (and that includes giyur). Many of us have been dealing with this for quite a few years now in the only real ways possible: Through a tolerant, welcoming and broad-minded Torah education, and through a warm community welcome by the religious population.

(No, we don't yell and scream and make a chilul Hashem like Yad le-Achim. Instead we just try to welcome long-lost family members back into our family.)

What is important is not the Israeli Supreme Court. What really matters is the fact that the missionaries have been working so hard for so many years to create a reality of "Christian Jews". And they have succeeded.

Now contrast this to the conversion debate. You have a family that suffered Nazism and Communism but nevertheless survived with its Jewish identity intact. They immigrate to Israel as a family of Jews, though some are halakhically Jewish and some are not. In Israel they receive the stigma of being "goyim" from the frum world. Websites even post articles and comments about them being the "erev rav" while the missionaries welcome them with open arms.

(Think about it: A gentile woman suffers anti-Semitism because of who she married, but remains loyal and accompanies him to a distant land, and wants to join his people because she loves them, or for her children's sake--she is an "erev rav." There are tens of thousands of families just like this. But instead of the erev rav, they remind me more of Ruth...)

What happens to this family? Not just to the halakhic non-Jews in it, but even to the halakhic Jews? The missionaries appeal to both alike. What is the result to Israeli society and ultimately to Torah of an approach that is utterly indifferent to questions of identity and community and peoplehood within the makeup of a Jew or of a convert?

What have we done when families who eat matza for a week on Pesach, built a sukkah for sukkot, get married under a chuppah, say kiddush on Shabbat, risk their lives as Jews to fight for their country's survival, but then get their conversions "revoked" by a charedi beit din?

And the most horrific thing of all is when these values--identity and community and peoplehood--are called by Rabbi Eidensohn "Zionism" in direct opposition to "Halachah." As if "true halakhah" need not or should not deal with the reality of these values in Israeli life today because they are tainted with "Zionism..." Rabbi Eidensohn, isn't "Amech Ami" also a Torah value and a halachic one?

It's not "Zionism" versus "Halachah" but rather two completely different visions of how the Ribbono Shel Olam wants us to apply halachah in a reality that includes the State of Israel. Please Rabbi Eidensohn, in the future, state this fairly.

When the missionaries approach this same population, don't be surprised if they have a lot of success. And at least some of that success is in the direct zechus of Rav Elyashiv and the Badatz. Baruch Hashem that Rav Druckman and the RZ rabbonim are trying to do what they can...

Deja vu! - Conservative & Reform attack Israeli rabbinate for being more concerned with halacha than social reality

The following describes the problem from a different perspective. It is an exceprt of an article which appeared in The Associated of the Baltimore community. It is not a current article - but it does indicate clearly that the claims the RZ/MO have against the Chareidi view are exactly the claims of the Conservative movement against the RZ/MO view.
This illustrates that ultimately the issue is how to strike a proper balance between concern for halachic integrity and social needs/reality. What kind of consequences can we live with? What are our options?

On Eve of Shavuot, Conversion Still is a Divisive Issue in Israel

Dina Kraft TEL AVIV, May 18 (JTA) — As Jews around the world prepare for Shavuot and its reading of the Book of Ruth — which features the Moabite woman's famous conversion with the words, "Your people shall be my people and your God my God" — Israel continues to grapple with the highly charged subject of conversion.
Long a battleground between Israel's Orthodox establishment and the Conservative and Reform movements, the issue took on urgency with the mass wave of immigration from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s. "I think Ruth and her conversion should indeed set the model for the current challenge of converting the Russians who live among us," said Rabbi Ehud Bandel, president of the Masorti-Conservative movement in Israel. "Once they identify with Israel and the Jewish people and society and accept the Jewish faith, they must be embraced exactly as Naomi embraced Ruth, who became the grandmother of King David." Bandel and others claim that Israel's chief rabbinate makes conversion especially difficult for those they suspect may not lead an Orthodox lifestyle. "The real challenge is that unfortunately, the Orthodox establishment does not convert for Judaism but for Orthodoxy," Bandel said. The rabbinate is "reluctant to open its arms to Russian converts because everyone knows they will not be Orthodox." Rabbi Eliyahu Ben-Dahan, general director of the rabbinical court of Israel — which oversees conversions — says there can be no shortcuts when it comes to following halachah, or Jewish law, with regard to conversions. Orthodox authorities say Jewish law requires that converts undergo traditional ritual conversion and commit to adhering to all the precepts of Jewish law, or halachah. Non-Orthodox streams contend that these authorities inevitably interpret halachah as Orthodox observance. "If they think we will give up on halachah, then of course we cannot," Ben-Dahan said. "At the end of the day, the ones who want to convert, do convert," he said. "We are doing all we can do." As many as 300,000 of the nearly 1 million immigrants who came to Israel in the 1990s from the former Soviet Union are not considered Jews under Jewish law. They pay taxes and serve in the army, but can't marry Jews in Israel or be buried in Jewish cemeteries. On their Israeli identity cards, the category for religion is left blank. It's a void that activists from the non-Orthodox streams of Judaism are trying to fill by lobbying for broader acceptance in conversion processes. "They live as Jews but are not considered Jews," Gilad Kariv, a lawyer and ordained Reform rabbi who works for the movement's lobbying arm, said of the Russian immigrants. Prevented from converting, the immigrants' level of identification with the Jewish state eventually goes down, he said. "They feel less Israeli, less Jewish, and this is a problem in Israel — this lack of accessibility to Judaism," he said. Kariv cites statistics from the Jewish Agency for Israel showing that close to half of the non-Jewish immigrants when asked before they moved to Israel said they wanted to convert. Asked after their move to Israel, only 10 percent to 20 percent said they still wanted to convert. Rabbi Chaim Druckman, who served in the Knesset as a member of the National Religious Party, has just taken up a new post as director of conversion affairs in the Prime Minister's Office. The position was established largely to deal with immigrants who may have Jewish ancestry but are not Jewish according to Jewish law, which accepts as Jews only those with Jewish mothers. "Those who want to convert need to be helped," Druckman told JTA. "We need to help these people and let them know we do want them." In 1998, a government commission on conversion, headed by then-Finance Minister Ya'acov Ne'eman, issued recommendations to the government. They included the establishment of a joint institute for conversion taught by a combination of Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform rabbis. The liberal streams agreed that those wishing to convert would then go to a Beit Din, or Jewish law court, for an Orthodox ceremony that would be universally recognized. Orthodox representatives did not sign on to the final recommendation, but the conversion institute has been established since, with branches across the country. Currently, it serves 2,500 students and is funded by the Jewish Agency and the government. Catering to immigrants, most classes are run in Russian. Some are conducted in Spanish for South American immigrants. The institute's executive director, Nehemia Citroen, said he thinks the government realizes how critical it is to facilitate the conversion process for new immigrants. "I believe the leadership here in this country in all realms understands the enormity of the problem, understands the situation by which hundreds of thousands of immigrants are brought here and told they are not Jewish," he said. "All those in leadership positions, including religious positions, have to see the reality of the situation today and allow for answers." In the four years since the institute was founded, 3,256 people have finished their conversion studies and 1,367 have been converted. But Bandel bemoaned the figure as "just a drop in the ocean." He and others say there's a backlog at the rabbinical courts for students from the institute. Critics also claim that those who study in Orthodox-run conversion classes have an easier time being converted by the rabbinical courts.[...]

Messianic Jews are accepted as Jews for Law of Return

While the debate of the conversions of Rav Druckman are the center of focus, another bomb was dropped almost unnoticed. The Messianic Jews have won the right of return as Jews. The following are articles written by the Messianics describing their victory - headed by Calev Myers of the Jerusalem Institute of Justice. He is also associated with Southeastern university that is building in Jerusalem. The material cited here was sent by Jersey Girl.
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Headline News Friday, April 25, 2008 Jerusalem Institute for Justice

Israeli Supreme Court rules in favor of Messianic Jews

The following is a press release issued by Jerusalem Institute for Justice co-founder Calev Meyers: In a landmark decision this week, the Supreme Court of Israel ratified a settlement between twelve Messianic Jewish believers and the State of Israel, which states that being a Messianic Jew does not prevent one from receiving citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return or the Law of Citizenship, if one is a descendent of Jews on one's father's side (and thus not Jewish according to halacha). This Supreme Court decision brought an end to a legal battle that has carried on for two and a half years. The applicants were represented by Yuval Grayevsky and Calev Myers from the offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co., and their legal costs were subsidized by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice. All twelve of the applicants were denied citizenship solely based on grounds that they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. Most of them received letters stating that they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity". One of the applicants was told by a clerk at the Ministry of Interior that because she "committed missionary activity", she is "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people". These allegations are not only untrue, but they also do not constitute legal grounds to deny one's right to immigrate to Israel. This important victory paves the way for persons who have Jewish ancestry on their father's side to immigrate to Israel freely, whether or not they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world.

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The following was an interview with Calev Myers published in the Florida newspaper The Ledger

Messianic Jew Forms a Bond At Southeastern

By Robin Williams Adams

LAKELAND | Calev Myers battles discrimination against a religious minority in Israel that most people in the United States don't know exists.

Myers belongs to a group of believers who are Jewish and proud of their heritage, but who consider Jesus the Messiah.

That makes some Jewish people here and abroad uncomfortable, even angry, and in Israel has led to confrontations.

Myers, in the forefront of key legal battles for the rights of Messianic Jews, was commencement speaker Saturday for Southeastern University.

"I was not intending to be the Messianic Jewish Robin Hood ... but God had other plans," he told about 340 students, their families and friends during the ceremony at Church Without Walls in Lakeland.

Those plans, he said, led him into college, then law school, after spending several years working with his hands as a goldsmith and carpenter.

He developed an awareness of social injustice that prompted him to found, and serve as chief counsel of, The Jerusalem Institute of Justice, and has put him before Israel's highest court two times.

Earlier this month, he won a case brought on behalf of 12 Messianic Jews who had been unable to get the citizenship promised Jews born elsewhere who return to Israel to live.

The country's "Law of Return" says people who are born Jewish can come to Israel from any other country and receive citizenship.

Exactly who is a Jew, however, is "at the heart of the debate of the Jewish world," Myers said.

Someone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, according to the law.

The High Court of Justice said April 16, in a precedent-setting ruling, that being a Messianic Jew can't prevent obtaining Israeli citizenship if the Jewish descent is on the father's side.

Most of the 12 represented in that case had received letters saying they committed "missionary activity," which some government officials said was against the interests of the state and the Jewish people.

In a case 15 years ago, the high court said Messianic Jews had converted and weren't Jewish, according to The Jerusalem Post.

Asked Friday what he means by saying he is a Messianic Jew, the American-born Israeli lawyer said he is "saying that I am biologically from a Jewish background. I identify with the Jewish people. I celebrate the Jewish holidays. I see myself as an integral part of the Jewish culture, but I believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah based on Jewish Scriptures."

Myers, 34, was in Lakeland as document bearer as well as speaker. He brought with him the lease Southeastern President Mark Rutland signed Friday for a building the university will use for study in Jerusalem.

Rutland, introducing Myers, praised his legal work on discrimination cases.

Myers focused more on the need he sees for further action to spread knowledge of Jesus. Southeastern graduates can help Israeli believers in Jesus by educating their congregations, praying for Israel and aligning themselves with Messianic Jewish congregations.

Rutland, responding, told Southeastern students who plan to study in Jerusalem they will join Jerusalem Institute of Justice volunteers who pick up trash in Jerusalem's poorest neighborhoods to build a platform of caring. They also may visit Myers' congregation.

"We are delighted to enter into a new and loving relationship with this congregation," Rutland said.

Messianic Jews are blamed for many things in Israel, Myers said, but "favor is coming on the Jewish believers in Israel today."

He urged Jewish believers from around the world to relocate to Israel, as his family did when he was 18.

"We believe the day is coming, friends, when Jesus once again will reveal himself to Israel, to the Jewish people," he said.

80 Relgious Zionist Orthodox Rabbis condemn - Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling against Rav Druckman

Yossi said...

Rabbi Eidensohn, you should find this interesting and perhaps something you should post. An entire world of Torah, in wall-to-wall agreement, condemns Rav Sherman's psak.

YNET article

Including Rabbis: Yaakov Ariel, Tzephania Drori, Aharon Lichtenstein, Aharon Tzukerman, Daniel Sperber, Yoel bin-Nun, Avi Gisser, Re'em Hakohen, Yaakov Meidan... and the list goes on and on and on. ALL of the greatest Torah scholars in a huge, vibrant world that includes hundreds the best yeshivot, schools, and other such institutions in the world.

Rav Lichtenstein writes (my translation): "How much hatred, grudge and demonization there is in this awful and terrible psak... The Conversion Authority has God-fearing and scholarly judges who have devoted their energy and their lives to the Torah. They cannot be pushed away and thrown into the street. We must be strong on this point: There is no giving into this kind of language and attitude... Where did we ever hear or see that someone who relies on a minority opinion against the commonly held one is considered a willing apikorus? Woe to the ears that hear such a thing and woe to the biased court that has expressed itself in such a way!"

Now that's real Daas Torah for all of us.

Attention Please! New challenger to the established Chareidi/MO geirus business

Recipients and Publicity wrote the following:

Open Orthodoxy's challenge to Haredi Judaism on every front.

Something VERY important in this post may have slipped below the radar because they are new developments, and Orthodox world, particularly in America as well as in Israel, needs to sit up and take note of it because it is already impacting the way Modern Orthdoxy is gearing itself up to fight and ignore rulings like those in Israel that came from Rav Sherman negating Rav Druckman, see the Canadian Jewish News article below.

If one looks at the signatories of the declaration of support for Rav Druckman by Rabbis Marc Angel, Avi Weiss, Saul Berman and Shlomo Riskin, who are, by the way, the elite of the elite of YU's most charismatic alumni and they are also established long-time leaders of the left wing of Modern Orthodoxy, one must note that two of the names officially sign as:

Rabbi Avraham Weiss and Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Co-Chairmen, International Rabbinic Fellowship

Rabbi Saul Berman, Chairman, International Rabbinic Fellowship Geirut Committee

And one must therefore ask WHAT is the International Rabbinic Fellowship? and WHAT is the International Rabbinic Fellowship GEIRUT Committee?

The organization is new and is tied in with Rabbi Weiss's new ultra-Modern Orthodox "YCT" Yeshiva Chovevei Torah http://www.yctorah.org/ (against which the Aguda-leaning mouth-piece YATED NE'EMAN in America has published lngthy open and scornful articles, (see http://openorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2007/02/yated-exposes-yct-as-threat-to-halachic.html Monday, February 26, 2007: "Yated exposes YCT as a 'Threat to Halachic Judaism'" and http://www.canonist.com/?p=1003 Yated Ne’eman Attacks Chovevei) warning Agudist Torah Jews to reject and stay away from YCT and its graduates [some YCT graduates are already grabbing rabbinical jobs in places Aguda type yeshivas had hoped to place there alumni].)

Anyhow, there is a website at [REMOVED WRONG LINK] for this new Modern Orthodox conglomerate of yeshiva/rabbinic organization/beit din, that, while it is made up of YU's elite alumni and members in good standing of the RCA, yet, with huge financial backing, like from Howard Jonas of IDT Corporation (http://www.idt.net/) and others, they have managed to set a new denomination of Orthodoxy that they call "Open Orthodoxy" whatever that may mean (and they do have their own interpretations and agendas).

Based on the press release on this post, it is important to note that Rabbi Shlomo Riskin also adds his name to it, and that while Rabbi Riskin is not formally affiliated with YCT because he has his own network of yeshivas and institutions in Israel, he is nevertheless part of the original "triumvirate" of Rabbi Avi Weiss and Rabbi Saul Berman (who headed the now defunct EDAH organization http://www.edah.org/ that had as its mission statement "The courage to be modern and Orthodox").

The statement is undersigned by:

Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Founder and Director
Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals
8 West 70th Street
New York, NY 10023
212 362 4764

So one must ask WHAT is the "Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals"?

Rabbi Marc Angel had worked independently until now (as the head of Congregation Shearith Israel, The Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue in the City of New York http://www.sephardicstudies.org/csi.html ) and since 2007 he heads the Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals

http://www.jewishideas.org/about

From its own website: "The Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals offers a vision of Orthodox Judaism that is intellectually sound, spiritually compelling, and emotionally satisfying... The Institute works for an intellectually vibrant, compassionate and inclusive Orthodoxy."

Now Rabbi Angel joins with the de facto ruling ultra-modern Orthodox rabbinical triumvirate (a Bais Din?) of Riskin, Berman and Weiss who all have known highly brilliant and innovative minds, are all highly outspoken and actvists since their student days, and were considered the most popular and best rebbeim at YU and Stern College during their lengthy teaching careers at YU and its related schools and it can be said beyond a doubt that they have tens of thousands of students, disciples and followers who were influenced by them and drawn to their liberal, activist and even LIBERATIONIST outlook of Orthodox Judaism.

They have all broken with the YU and RCA establishments and set up their own rival schools and institution to the left of the YU and RCA establishments whom they regard and kow-towing and caving in to right wing pressures from the Charedi world.

Rabbi Riskin has a very powerful following among the Modern Orthodox mainstream, so his name on this declaration is significant. He was even recently considered as a possible successor to Rabbi Norman Lamm as Dean and Rosh Yeshiva of YU in America, but he does not need it because he has his own empire in Israel and an ongoing following on the Upper West Side having been the founding rabbi and is the ongoing sage-emeritus of the flagship Modern Orthodox Lincoln Square Synagogue http://www.lss.org/ from where the wealthy still give him lots of help, and where, it MUST be noted, Rabbi EPHRAIM BUCHWALD is still the OUTREACH RABBI and heads the NJOP: National Jewish Outreach Program http://www.njop.org/ that does CONTROVERSIAL outreach TOGETHER with REFORM and CONSERVATIVE synagogues and it is know that gentiles exist in great numbers in these type of places and attend all NJOP programs that would lead to conversion issues, no doubt about it, and for which it was condemned by the Agudas Harabbonim in The Jewish Press, March 7, 2003:

"Kiruv and Halacha: In answer to many inquiries whethwr the Agudas Harabonim approves of the 'Shabbat Across America/Canada' calls...one is not allowed to pray in Reform and Conservative Temple...Therefore [it] cannot approve of a call to attend a Reform or Conservative Temple on a Friday night..." , see also in this regard: http://truejews.org/Igud_Historic_Declaration.htm

"A HISTORIC DECLARATION: The Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada (Agudath Harabonim) hereby declares: Reform and Conservative are not Judaism at all. Their adherents are Jews, according to the Jewish Law, but their religion is not Judaism.

Rabbi Riskin also has the full backing of Morry J. Weiss, chairman of the board of American Greetings Corporation http://corporate.americangreetings.com/, and who also happens to be the Chairman of Board of Trustees of YU, (see Morry Weiss Assumes Leadership of Yeshiva Trustees http://media.www.yucommentator.com/media/storage/paper652/news/2004/09/20/News/Morry.Weiss.Assumes.Leadership.Of.Yeshiva.Trustees-715248.shtml ) and son in law and succesor to Irving Stone (of Stone Chumash fame). Rabbi Riskin's Ohr Torah-Stone Institutions http://www.ohrtorahstone.org.il/ are important bastions of Modern Orthodoxy and Religious Zionism in Israel headed solely by Rabbi Riskin and therefore his support of the statement against Rav Sherman, as signed on this press release, is very important that will no doubt have strong ramifications as all these rabbis will speak out and be very vocal and militant against the rulings issued by Rav Sherman.

Following are three recent articles that make it very clear that we will be hearing a lot more from this group as the controversy over conversions/rabbis/bateidin

/Religious Zionism unfold, and it will not be a pretty sight to experience, behold or stomach:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Canadian Jewish News

http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14674&Itemid=86

Wednesday 14th of May 2008 9 Iyyar 5768

Modern Orthodoxy decides to fight back

Opinion
By RABBI MARTIN LOCKSHIN
Thursday, 15 May 2008

In 2006, The Canadian Jewish News ran a series of articles on modern Orthodox Judaism. Many readers saw those articles as evidence of the decline of modern Orthodoxy and its gradual replacement by more haredi types of Orthodox Judaism.

Those so inclined might find even more evidence now that modern Orthodoxy is in trouble. A number of issues have arisen recently, but none is of more concern than conflicts concerning conversion.

Here in Israel, where I am spending my sabbatical from York University, rabbinic courts have state sanction and rabbis are often appointed to them as political favours. As haredi political parties have grown in size and the National Religious Party has shrunk, state rabbinic courts are increasingly run by rabbis who are inimical to the values of modernity and unconcerned about the issues of Israeli society at large.
[...]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The New York Jewish Week

http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c37_a8941/News/National.html

04/30/2008

Taking On The RCA?
New rabbinical group launched to counter rightward shift in Modern Orthodoxy.

by Gary Rosenblatt
Editor and Publisher

In a move certain to be seen as an effort to compete with the Rabbinical Council of America — the largest group of Orthodox rabbis — two vocal critics this week launched a clerical group called the International Rabbinic Fellowship.
[...]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Jewish daily FORWARD

http://www.forward.com/articles/12864/

Rabbis Form New Orthodox Organization

By Anthony Weiss
Thu. Mar 06, 2008

After years of tension between more liberal and conservative elements of the American Orthodox Jewish establishment, several liberal Orthodox rabbis have banded together to create a new rabbinic organization that offers an alternative to traditional Orthodox authorities.
[...]

Jewish Press editorial - Continuing Conversion Crisis

The Jewish Press just ran an editorial lamenting the current conversion crisis. While it does summarize the different views it offers no solution.

=======================

In a recent series of editorials spanning several months, this page has been drawing attention to an emerging crisis regarding conversions in Israel. The crisis has largely been caused by a government initiative intended to promote mass conversions of Russian immigrants to Judaism in order to increase the “Jewish” population of Israel.
This initiative was undertaken despite the halachic imperative that conversions are ordinarily to be discouraged and in any event subject to the exacting requirements of Jewish law. That is, if the procedures are not scrupulously followed, the ostensible converts are not Jewish, with all that brings with it.
This past week the issue emerged in full fury with a clash between the governmental agency – the so-called Conversion Authority – charged with increasing the number of Jews through conversions and the rabbinic court charged with implementing the exacting halachic standards for conversions. Israel’s Supreme Rabbinical Court voted to uphold an Ashdod bet din’s nullification of a woman’s conversion to Judaism on the grounds that at the conversion proceeding she was never asked whether she agreed to abide by all halachic requirements. Also, the court took judicial notice that the overwhelming majority of Russian immigrants converted under the auspices of the Conversion Authority were not observant – which the court said cast doubt on the procedures followed by the Conversion Authority. In addition, the conversions presided over by the rabbinic head of the Conversion Authority were held to be presumptively suspect because he had allegedly certified at least one conversion at which he had not been present.
[....]
(click on link for full article).

Read more >> Options >>

Knesset member against Supreme Rabbinical Court rejection of Rav Druckmans' conversions

Recipients and Publicity wrote:

Opposing view against Rav Sherman's ruling from a Knesset member published in Haaretz
(click on link for full article)
=============================
The opposition to the Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling is not just from the Religious Zionist/Modern Orthodox rabbis. It also comes from the Israeli/Zionist secular society.
May 10, 2008

A split from Israeli society

By MK Menachem Ben Sasson Kadima) is the chairman of the Knesset's Constitution, Law and Justice Committee.

The Supreme Rabbinic Court's ruling last week, which voided conversions carried out by the rabbinic courts of the Conversion Administration, only speeds up the collapse of rabbinic authority in the state judicial system.

The verdict may be framed in legalese, but it should not be misunderstood. Every one of its 49 pages may be headed "The State of Israel," but the pronouncement represents nothing less than a split from Israeli society, the state and the national justice system.

The rabbinic courts' opponents should be pleased with this verdict and wait patiently for a few others like it to topple the rabbinic court system altogether.

Institutional authority in modern society does not derive merely from an institution's official status, nor from its formal power. It is based mainly on public consensus and the understanding that without proper institutions, people would devour each other.

The Supreme Rabbinic Court's ruling does not only void a specific decision by the conversion court but stipulates that its judges, rabbis Haim Druckman and Yosef Avior, are unfit and all their conversions are null and void. The Rabbinic Court is invalidating a legal instance that derives its formal authority from the same source as the Rabbinic Court - an official state appointment. By so doing, it leads the way to having its own courts treated in a similar fashion.

[...]

The loss of confidence in religious institutions is being accelerated mainly because of the distress of non-Jewish immigrants. They were given a partial remedy in the form of the conversion courts. Now the Supreme Rabbinic Court is obstructing the only two ways some 400,000 Israeli citizens can integrate into Israeli society - marriage and conversion.

[...]

Pulling the rug out from under the feet of yesterday's converts and digging a hole in front of tomorrow's is unacceptable. It will shatter what's left of the public consensus that the Supreme Rabbinic Court is worthy of running family issues in Israel. The court's revoking past and future conversions is tantamount to destroying the house and everyone inside.

Canadian perspective on the conversion crisis

The Canadian Jewish News presents a survey of responses to the ruling of the Supreme Rabbinical Court against Rav Druckman's conversions.
=================================
Conversion controversy rears head in Israel

By PAUL LUNGEN, Staff Reporter

Thursday, 15 May 2008

A decision by a haredi rabbinic appeal court in Israel has called into question the legitimacy of thousands of conversions by a respected Israeli halachic authority and prompted a heated and strongly worded rebuke from an Orthodox rabbis’ group.

At the same time, two rabbis associated with the Toronto Vaad Harabonim (Orthodox rabbinical council) say the Israeli decision will likely have no impact on conversions approved by the council’s beit din (rabbinical court).

In Montreal, meanwhile, the Israeli decision received the full support of the Orthodox Jewish Community Council, whose spokesperson, Rabbi Saul Emanuel, said “we will honour and respect this judgement.”

[Click on the link for the full article]

Jewish attitude towards gerim as manifested towards the Erev Rav

Recipients and Publicity has raised an important point regarding the nature of gerus. What are the lessons to be learned from the Erev Rav? He asserts in the following excerpt [from a longer comment] that we learn a postive attitude because Moshe accepted as converts those who would not meet modern standards - and he never apologized to G-d for this decision. His assertions involve a number of major concerns as to how we learn lessons from our Mesora - both written and oral. He also has expressed irritation about being misunderstood and therefore I want to allow him to clarify the issues here I am also including some of the comments related to this issue. While it is obvious that we are in serious disagreement - I think we have much to gain by focusing on his assertions. [Useful Kabbalistic source material is found on Mishpat Tzedek ]
==========================
Recipients and Publicity wrote
While the hysteria against accepting converts to Judaism gains steam bordering on irrational xenophobia, and while a number of very limited and parochial arguments may make some sense, and while no Orthodox rabbi or Jew in his right mind denies that the Halachah, meaning Kabolas ol mitzvas by the ger, must remain the only guidepost and criterian in this arena, YET, nevertheless one must also have in mind what the Torah, Tanach and the various eras of the Jewish history teach us.

[...]


Then it was Moshe Rabbeinu who took out the eruv rav (mixed multitude) from Egypt who the Jewish sages say were converted. The mixed multitude caused many problems but even at the worst time of the egel (golden calf) Moshe never apologised to G-d for taking them out of Egypt when G-d called them (the eruv rav) "your" (i.e. Moshe's) nation. Moshe's attitude to the eruv rav is puzzling and fascinating and why he saw fit to accept them is even more of a challenge to comprehend, but the fact remains that he accepted mixed types of non-Israelite people from Egypt who would not meet many of today's conversion standards ab initio if they were to be judged by Rav Shternbuch for example. Perhaps it was because Moshe understood the nature of TRUE geirei tzedek: He was rescued by the daughter of Paroh who came to be called Basya (duaghter of G-d) for her act of saving the infant baby in the Nile who would become the redeemer of the Jews from Egypt, or perhaps it was because Moshe married Tzipora who was a convert and that later Moshe's father-in-law Yitro became the first major convert after the giving of the Torah.


Recipients and Publicity also said...

I had no idea that what is recorded in the Torah and Tanach needs more sources.

I was also not endorsing and supporting the acceptance of any gentile who wishes to become a ger with a blank check.

My main point, in the eye of this storm of disputes and your for request sources of all sorts, is that one must NOT forget what the Torah and Tanach had the honesty and openess to retain and not hide for the record that from the times of Avraham and Sarah until the present time that Judaism is not a religion that is closed off to anyone

So it is strange you ask for sources because your sources are only SECONDARY SOURCES whereas the sources I cite are the core original PRIMARY SOURCES !!!!

===============
I objected to his analysis with the following


I think we finally have reached the basis of our disagreement on many issues.
I have never heard an Orthodox Jew describe Chazal or Rishonim or Achronim as secondary sources. You are presenting a fundamentalist literal reading of Tanach as superior to one that is viewed through the eyes of our Sages as well as Rishonim and Achronim.

While this is the understanding of some academics, maskillim and karaites - it is simply not acceptable to anyone I know who calls himself an Orthodox Jew.

"Keep your children from higayon" Rashi explains that you should not educate your children to understand Tanach independent of the explanation of our Sages.[Berachos 28b]

Recipients and Publicity responded to my criticism

To Daas Torah of May 13, 2008 11:14 PM:

As far as I know, this Blog is not a kindergarten nor is it a place to get lectured about where or how to start an intelliegent discussion(and all that these things on this Blog are is just discussions, for none of us are poskim).

I challenge you: How can anyone claim to be an learned Orthodox Jew if they do not accept the Torah and Tanach as the devar H-shem?

Can you point out where I am being too "literalist" for you? Were Avraham and Sarah not geirim and called by the sages (not by the Torah) techila legerim? Does not Rashi (not the Torah) say, quoting Chazal that Batya was coming down to the Nile to convert when she spotted Moshe? Were not Tzipora and her father gerim and does not Rashi and the Ramban discuss at what point did Yisro come to Moshe and convert? The conversion of Ruth and the principle that allowed it of "moavi velo mo'aviya" is not in the Tanach, it is the chazal who teach about it. The sages and kabbalists themselves struggle to understand why the soul of mashiach has to come from "sparks" hidden in alien people like Ruth who is the one to be the mother of royalty and not a "meyucheses from a Chasidic dynasty" and it is not in the Tanach. Why Shlomo did what he did is just as good a question as asking why Rav Druckma did what he did, if not better. I had no idea that Yiddishkeit prohibted questions of this kind, unless you have an aganda of course to destroy other Jews who hold by Religious Zionism that was not founded by me (and I do not support Mizrachi for the record) but by gedolim like Rav Reines and Rav Kook and Rav JB Soloveichik, even though they were a minorty they matter because Yiddishkeit does not crush genuine opposing views. It is not the Tanach that says that Nevuzaradan converted but it is in the Gemora, and it is also the Gemora that says that Nero went off to become a ger as did many others who were like the famous Rebbe Meir in the mishna as far as I heard it explained. Is all this too much for you that you must resort to lines like "While this is the understanding of some academics, maskillim and karaites - it is simply not acceptable to anyone I know who calls himself an Orthodox Jew."? What a great pity!

I had no idea that "Chazal or Rishonim or Achronim" rejected the Torah and the Tanach, and nowhere is what I stated solely based on either the Torah or the Tanach alone -- I have striven mightily to combine the words of the Torah SheBichtav with the Torah SheBeal Peh -- and you can go ahead and read for yourself again very carefully that I have included Chazal (from multiple Midrashim) or Rishonim (many Rashis and at least one Rambam) or Achronim (Kabbalists) and even relying on modern day gedolim, such as Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, Rav Hutner, and others who URGE and ENCOURAGE the learning of Tanach, as well quoting Tannoim and Amoroim from the Gemora and the Talmud.

While for the sake of keeping the flow of my presentation moving I may not have specifically mentioned the names of Rashi's and other Gemoras, they are very present and evident to the knowledgeable reader and they are plentiful in my above comments and you can see that for yourself, so that you are being too DISMISSIVE (a bad habit, even for one claiming to talk for Daas Torah) and much too rough and abrupt in your rejection of my words (similar to your description of my words as "paranoid" when you disliked some earlier comments) rather than showing me word for word that what I have said is not true which is not the case.

Recipients and Publicity wrote to Bright Eyes

Your points about the eruv rav are off the mark. I was not saying and the chumash does not say that they asked to be part of the Israelites or that they should or shouldn't be counted as Israelites. That was not my point in this regard.

What I was saying was that nowhere in the Chumash did Moshe apologise to H-shem for his decision to take the eruv rav out of Egypt with the Bani Yisrael (and it was a jailbreak for EVERYONE by the way because Paroh fought against the Jews' leaving Egypt and even pursued them... do you even understand basic Chumash?) and at no point is there a command to kill them. They remain as the eruv rav, and there are midrashim that say that the eruv rav converted, regardles of how you wish to understand or misunderstand that.

No one says that they were tsadikim either, that is also not the point, just that they were not as bad as Amelek that needed to be killed out as the Torah commanded.