Eternal Jewish Family - R' Tropper's blog

Below is evidence that R' Tropper's has totally lost contact with reality. He falsely asserts that HaRav Moshe Sternbuch and the Bedatz did not criticize him on halachic grounds. He falsely asserts that their motivation is solely to support R' Nosson Slifkin . This despite the fact that Rav Sternbuch has published his opinion that the views of R' Slikin are heresy - even though he acknowledges that R' Slikin not a heretic. Anybody with even a minimal contact of reality know R' Tropper's statements are not innocent errors but are lies and slander. The attempt to divert attention from R' Tropper's very questionable halachic position by claiming that it is all a conspiracy to defend R' Slifkin - is a sad commentary on the state of this man. Furthermore if he is claiming that I am a secret defender of R' Slifkin and have succeeded in convincing the Bedatz to attack R' Tropper - that is even more bizarre than the first. I am not a supporter of R' Slifkin's views and I have absolutely no control over the views of the Bedatz . I do agree with the Bedatz that R' Tropper's halachic grounds are very questionable. This is RaP's summary of sources from the Bedatz

RaP: Can you point to the alleged "irrationality" you IMAGINE? Is the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn "irrational", who posted I, II and and many other posts like this and who posts his and others' comments after serious review of each comment and who opposes the EJF effort and Rabbi Tropper's methods? Is Rav Moshe Shternbuch "irrational" for opposing efforts, see "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation" and "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews and "Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad" like those of Rabbi Tropper and the EJF? Is the entire BADATZ of the powerful Eidah HaChareidis "irrational" (are Horav Meir Brandsorfer, Horav Moshe Sternbuch, Horav Naftoli Frenkal, Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman, Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch, Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg ALL "irrational" too for signing it?) see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and of taking the extreme measure of openly, see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and rebuking and warning dayanim and batei din all over the world who were Recipients of its official warning letters and giving Publicicty to it, authorising its dissemination online through this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn. It has been Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn who has asked for written Halachik clarifications from Rabbi Tropper and EJF and none has been forthcoming, so take it up with him if you think he and others being "irrational" for asking for a written reason al pi din and for his efforts EJF tried to smear him, see "EJF smear campaign"

=========================================== Rabbi Tropper's Blog [previous response to a blog criticism] Questions and Answers About Eternal Jewish Family With Rabbi Leib Tropper Question: What is the focus of Eternal Jewish Family’s Work?

Answer: We wish to protect those who want to Have an authentic conversion which will never be questioned, by informing them of the proper Batei Din that Can Facilitate that kind of conversion.

Question: There are some Blogs that have all kinds of claims against Eternal Jewish Family, particularly one blog that is controlled by a Religious man. Have you any response to those claims? Answer:

We do not Look at blogs hence no reason to Respond. There is one Particular Rabbi who we never met but heard that he has a blog that Speaks against EJF. I know of the Rabbi and communicated with him about 2-3 times.

It became apparrent to us that the Rabbi’s attacks had little to do with the laws of Yoreh Deah siman 248-9 which discuss the laws of conversion. It has to do with a group of people that are furious over my voiced opposition to R’ Nosson Slifkin ’s book which was banned by the Gedolei Torah.

This we discovered through many sources despite the camouflage. These people are Devout Followers of Rabbi Slifkin who have made it their campaign to attack those who opposed R’ Nosson Slifkin’s views. There is much more to say about this topic. For now, be sure that the Rabbi’s hatred for Eternal Jewish Family is rooted in the above… NOTHING to do with the Laws of Geirus.

This Rabbi, who authored a book as well, IS and WAS a STRONG supporter of R’ Nosson Slifkin despite the declaration of opposition From Gedolei Yisroel and despite the signed opposition of his own Rav, shlita. Considering all the above it becomes Clear why his manufactured claims are irrelevant. I Travel the world and Gedolei Yisroel all over are supportive of the objectives of EJF. People from all walks of life have sent us letters of encouragement and applauded Mr. Kaplan’s strength in taking on this challenge. Mr. Kaplan is not a Major supporter of Kol Yaakov. His Focus is on Eternal Jewish Family. In contrast to what was reported, Horizons is a kiruv organization only. In Israel, it is known as Ofakym. As far the report that I heard regarding Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein removing himself from Eternal Jewish Family, that is false. He comes to all Eternal Jewish Family rabbinic events and we speak with him numerous times during a week. I am sure that this Rabbi will never stop his attacks on Eternal Jewish Family. He made it his life’s mission.

The Real Failure of Failed Messiah by RaP

RaP this is an interesting analysis - but it is utlimately a whitewashing of a very odios subject. I would replace the word "anger" with the world "hate". Scotty was primarily a hater - not a seeker of truth. The truth was used when it was helpful in expressing hate and contempt.

For example when he objected to my post  which I wrote soon after it was established that Rivky Stein had fabricated horrific lies against her husband which the media had lapped up with relish as proof that Orthodox Judaism and in particular a male Orthodox Jew is evil. I requested that these blogs and news media apologize and acknowledge that Yoel was innocent and Rivky Stein was less then honest.

He acknowledged that it was possible that the truth was like I said but said that it didn't matter because Yoel Weiss deserved the attacks because Rivky Stein could only get justice in the Orthodox Jewish system by this type of attack. In short he refused to even consider apologizing for attacking Yoel. This is not anger - it is pure hate.

With hate, you can't be happy until the object of your hate is destroyed. Anger disappears with the issues are ameliorated.

In short he was not concerned with truth and fairness - but looked for any news item that would provide an excuse for trashing and stomping on Orthodox Jews and Judaism. Truth was only a tool in his hatred - it was not a goal.

Kiruv failed - not because it didn't seriously try but because his hatred could only be satisfied by the destruction of Yiddishkeit. Not something that makes sense even for the sake of Kiruv.

========================================================================Guest Post by RaP

I have not come to praise Failed Messiah (FM) but to bury him, to quote the famous words in Shakespeare about the ignoble demise of Julius Caesar after his assassination by his own former friends. The entire Jewish blogosphere and beyond is grappling with the sudden end of the Failed Messiah blog. People who tracked FM had a love-hate relationship with it. For some it was almost pure hate and zero love, for others it was a mixed bag. FM was not a lovable person and made sure to let you know it.

But what was the force behind the FM blog that made it the center of so much attention and controversy? Even if one did not agree with a word it said, it was still a place to get a measure of things in the Frum world. Many on this blog have quoted things that were researched well on FM. In many instances FM had parallel interests with all the other pro-active Jewish blogs, fighting child sex abuse, the various scandals like the Tropper and Hersh cases that this blog and others dealt with in depth. Pulling the facade away that "all is well" in Chabad. Hence the name "failed moshiach" as someone put it, and exposing corruption in various Charedi, Israeli, Modern Orthodox and Chasidic circles who were fighting over money, power, fame and fortune.

But behind it all was a very angry man, who by the time he allowed his FM to be shut down and taken over was a depleted ex Baal Teshuva in his late 50s who had reportedly never married, had no children, no known family and no one who can be called his friends, not getting enough money to keep going even from his readers, living in a far off city in a cramped room, where he worked as a one man news operation that often appeared like a news conglomerate but it was just coming from one driven ex Baal Teshuva who had had it with the Frum world.

The failure of FM is a failure in Kiruv!

It is a failure to close the circle by those who Mekareved him because for Kiruv to be successful it must succeed "from womb to tomb" and not just of the one who is Mekareved, but the spouse of the BT often also a BT, and their children, at the end of the day, must all be raised and remain Frum for it to be a Kiruv success story, and this did not happen with FM, because he broke down along the way of being a loyal Chabad BT to becoming its deadly foe. How so?

Classical BTs are by nature truth seekers and questioners, if they would not be then they would never be drawn to Yiddishkeit and become Frum in the first place, something FFBs do not grasp or understand because FFBs are born into the world of being Frum they do not understand or relate to the unique mental and emotional and intellectual and psychic and spiritual processes of questioning and deep grappling with issues and always demanding the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God.

To make this dichotomy between BTs and FFBs clearer one need not look further than the difference between Avraham Avinu and Yitzchak Avinu. They are both the Avos, but what a difference. According to the RAMBAM Avram as he was first called at a very young age started to question everything in a world from which the God of Creation had been banished, and he questioned and questioned and challenged and challenged and defied and defied everyone, until he was satisfied that he found God! Not so his son Yitzchok, the "ershter geboirener" who was born as the first FFB, he did not question because he was born into the faith. Even at the Akeidah he did not question, it was not his Test, it was Avraham's test because as a questioner he did not question God on that, and that is why Avraham passes the litmus test of belief while FM fails, or at least has failed thus far.

Someone wise recently posted a comment about him that is so true on another blog that is worth repeating:

""...We loved the muckraking. The sordid truth. The raw emotion. We loved his struggle. We were a part of something. That cannot be rehabilitated or started anew..."

That quote is what got me thinking about writing this post. What FM was, was a work in process or rather the public unraveling of a work in progress. FM was once a staunch Chabad BT he worked for them, but then he became embittered with them over reasons that anyone who has spent even a little time in Kiruv Rechokim working with formerly secular Jews knows happens all the time. An issue important to them from their past lives comes to them anew as a life's challenge, it is their challenge and Test from Above, like the Akeidah came to Avraham Avinu from Above as an unexpected challenge directly from God and what did he do? He accepted the bitter Divine Decree that went beyond his reasoning and turned his world upside down, while Avraham Avinu passed his test, FM failed his big test. It could have been about the Jewish status of Falashas or it could have been about any one of hundreds of different issues, but for FM it was a catalyst to keep his passions and fires burning now in out of control fashion, questioning, thinking, a rebellious streak running now evidently with great anger that boiled over just at the time when the Internet was exploding and FM like tens of millions of others could then "share" his anger and questions, angst, inner turmoils, and deeper thoughts with the world on his blog.

And people came by the millions to read him, not out of a hate or love for this or that and not out of hate or love for anything really, but because FM was now putting his own struggle on display as symbol of his peers who have these struggles, he did not invent the issues as some allege, he struggled with them in ways that FFBs cannot fathom but that is the typical way of BTs who are conscious of the struggles and will not cover things up just because some people don't like it, expressing himself on a huge cyber-canvas like a frustrated artist for the world to judge.

The FFBs that have bought out and shut down FM have gained a phyric hollow victory, they have bought a shell and FM is having the last laugh, he has done his thing and now he is gone, in typical controversial iconoclastic fashion with disregard for the world even for his supposed "followers" he has spit in their face, because he is an angry man to the core, something FFBs do not do and now they are holding a shadow, like when you try to catch a lizard and you think you caught it but all you are holding is its detached tail while the lizard scampers off to its hiding hole, because they can never shut down the raw questioning and anger and frustration that so many people feel. For a questioning secular Jew becoming Frum, staying Frum, marrying Frum, and raising Frum family and that all of them will remain Frum to their last day on Earth is a huge Nisoyon that FFBs cannot even begin to appreciate.

So FM was a case in point of a failure in Kiruv, it is a reminder of how the Frum world has many lessons to learn before it can win over all the hearts and minds of secular Jews becoming Frum and keep them Frum. We are still in the middle of that bitter struggle and we cannot wish away nor can anyone buy it out and shut down, because life is not that simple.

RaP discusses Shavei Israel search for 'Hidden Jews" in Poland

Guest post by RaP:

Shavei Israel looks for 'Hidden Jews' in Poland and All Over!

"The Jewish Press

Friday, January 20, 2012

Page 18

(Display advertisement:)          

HELP  US  UNCOVER  THESE  HIDDEN  TREASURES

After decades of oppression, Poland’s ‘Hidden Jews’ are finally emerging from the shadows, seeking to reclaim their Jewish identity. The downfall of the Iron Curtain has opened up new worlds, and allowed previously-buried family secrets to come to the fore.

Across Poland, countless young people are suddenly discovering the Jewish roots that their parents or grandparents sought to hide because of fear or persecution, and an increasing number are seeking to learn more about Judaism.

Shavei Israel is leading the way, reaching out to Poland’s ‘Hidden Jews’ with a helping hand and a welcoming heart.

Please join us in assisting these brave young men and women to reconnect with the Jewish people.

[Photos six young people surrounding Shavei Israel logo]

Please send your US tax-deductible contributions to:

American Friends of Shavei Israel

25 West 45^th Street, Suite 1405. New York, NY 10036. Tel: (212) 840 – 1166

www.shavei.org”

The Jewish Press is unique among the English language Orthodox weekly newspapers and magazines in that for many years, someone or other in its ownership/editorial department has consistently pushed and allowed and even promoted articles and ads from organizations and individuals such as the defunct EJF, Shavei Israel and a variety of events.

The American Yated is the most conservative in this regard. It has basically never allowed any information on its pages that in way seem to be promoting proselytization of gentiles by any sort of rabbis or organizations. Perhaps in the early history of the EJF when many roshei yeshiva were induced to attend its earliest meetings, there was something, otherwise nothing. The American Hamodia at one time had regular articles and ads about EJF's work, but it stopped that when the Tropper scandal came into the open. the American Mishpacha once used to have more articles about finding lost Jews and promoted the work of the Shavei Israel  organization headed by Michael Freund. But without missing a beat, The Jewish Press has never given up on the theme of publishing articles, ads and promoting outright proselytization to gentile by Jewish organizations and rabbis. This seems to have come about in the period after the passing of its founder Rabbi Sholom Klass (d. 2000), but since then there has been a constant blizzard and drumbeat for this cause. The Jewish Press was among the leadership of the EJF from its inception in various ways and even wrote editorials and op-eds to support EJF. The Jewish Press has been the greatest supporter of Shavei Israel and it hosts a regular column by Michael Freund who has made it his life's mission to go searching for all manner of "lost Jews" that's part of a greater Zionist vision as he is also a Zionist activist. (The New York Jewish Week is not considered an Orthodox paper as it's funded by the secular UJA).

This past week was no exception, and space was given not to events to help "Anusim" but raise money for finding lost Jews in Poland.

----------------------

The following is a closer look at the latest Shavei Israel infomercial:

"HELP  US  UNCOVER  THESE  HIDDEN  TREASURES"

RaP:  The word "uncover" here is ambiguous, it easily means "proselytize"!

"...Poland’s ‘Hidden Jews’ are finally emerging from the shadows, seeking to reclaim their Jewish identity."

RaP: Almost all of them are not Halachic Jews and would require proper conversions. The wording jumps the gun, it tells the reader that they are already "Jews" albeit "Hidden" -- meaning they are "real" Jews just "hidden" away somewhere, when the facts are far from that. They are mostly gentiles with very tenuous links and claims to Jewish ancestry, and to repeat, almost every single one of them would require a proper geirus. So this is really a masquerade to cover up another mass proselytization effort.

"The downfall of the Iron Curtain has opened up new worlds, and allowed previously-buried family secrets to come to the fore."

RaP: Many of these claims are useless in a court of law, let alone a Bais Din because they almost all lack the proper kind of documentation that their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents were truly verifiable Halachic Jews.

"Across Poland, countless young people are suddenly discovering the Jewish roots that their parents or grandparents sought to hide because of fear or persecution, and an increasing number are seeking to learn more about Judaism."

RaP: This is true EVERYWHERE, not just in Poland, but that does not mean that they should be ENCOURAGED to do so for obvious reasons that no one knows who these people are really descended from. This is certainly not classical "kiruv rechokim" by any stretch of the imagination, its going way beyond the normal parameters of what an Orthodox-run organization should be doing. There should be many lessons learned from the recent mass Aliya from the former USSR that dredged up all sorts of people with very unreliable and false and even no claims to being Jewish and they amount to at least a third of the million who came from the USSR who are not Halachic Jews. The Jewish state of Israel does not need more problems because it is already choking Halachically on this bone of contention of nebulous "hidden Jews"!

"Shavei Israel is leading the way, reaching out to Poland’s ‘Hidden Jews’ with a helping hand and a welcoming heart."

RaP: There are plenty of priorities to work on and help bring back to authentic Judaism the millions of secular or marginal Jews who have a closer connection to provable Jewish ancestry.

"Please join us in assisting these brave young men and women to reconnect with the Jewish people."

RaP: They may be brave but Shavei Israel, and The Jewish Press that's promoting this are clearly pushing the envelope of and clearly crossing the line from kosher kiruv to painful proselytization. 

"Please send your US tax-deductible contributions to:

American Friends of Shavei Israel

www.shavei.org ”

RaP: There can surely be more important things to support in the Jewish world today. A further look at the web link opens the wide window into Shavei Israel's growing network, that unlike EJF has not been stopped or derailed. Michael Freund is NOT Leib Tropper even though they are merchants in the same bazaar of bartering for "lost Jews" and having no qualms in trying to have them converted, no matter how many there are, they're still the same type of very dangerous undertakings from the point of view of Jewish identity according to Jewish law.

--------------------

A student of Tropper defends his teacher

I was given permission by the sender to publish this anonymously - unedited - to provide understanding of the other side.
====================================

I wanted to thank you being a voice of reason in our current world where, unfortunately, it becomes more popular to align against our Rabbaim than to actually consider the consequences.

 A little about me: I am a Talmud of Rabbi Tropper, having learned in his Yeshiva for over 5 years.  The Rosh Yeshiva IS a very affectionate person who is very passionate about Torah values, Ahavas Yisroel and Kiruv. The tests on a Kiruv professional’s emunah and character are obvious. It is very, very easy to upkeep high standards living in a large Jewish community. Remove that community to be in a position of constant bombardment from secular values and viewpoints, and anyone can be vulnerable.  I’ve heard Rabbaim, working far from such communities in Kiruv, bewail about how they’ve had children who became Korbanos because of it …

 However, I have to say that all the collective interactions and experiences I’ve ever had with the Rosh Yeshiva tell me he is absolutely 1000% innocent of all these allegations. He has always maintained his emunah and character. What’s more is that he is a Talmud Chacham, and an uncompromising subscriber to Daas Torah.

 I noticed some responses to your blog concluded that, since he stepped down from EJF, he must be guilty.  This flaw is noted in the Chofetz Chaim’s Hilchos Loshon Harah in the case of one being defamed in public and remains silent.  The din, of course, is that the victim’s silence gives absolutely no basis to conclude that he/she is guilty.  Rabbi Tropper simply does not want to make matters worse for himself and his family, and apparently, he has made some very powerful enemies.

 As for the alleged  audio footage: audio technology nowadays can be edited right up to each millisecond.

 It is my hope that those who wish to harm him see their efforts for what they are and do Tseuvah, and that Rabbi Tropper’s name be vindicated.

 Again,
thank you.

More on EJF by Eli Neuberger

5TJewishTimes

The recent Tropper scandal truly boggles the mind! I do not recall a scandal of this magnitude, where someone like that led an organization in which so many prominent Roshei Yeshiva and Torah leaders were either directly or indirectly associated. How could that be? How could this happen?

Perhaps it might be wise to examine the history of Rabbi Leib Tropper.

He has been involved with Kiruv for close to 40 years. After unsuccessful stints in Ohr Somayach of Jerusalem and Monsey, he established a Kiruv Yeshiva on his own called Kol Yaakov. But his Yeshiva never hit the big time of the Kiruv world. ....

EJF scandal - comments from other blogs

1. From R' Harry Maryles:

I knew what this con man was about 20 years ago when I first met him. He was responsible then for ruining the life of one young man I am very close with - making life miserable for his parents. His mother went to the grave suffering an estrangement from her son for which Leib Tropper was responsible. His father suffers to this day from it. He took advantage of this young man's misfortune and conned him into doing something no decent man would ever do. And he made it seem like he was doing him a favor. This young man is now 20 years older and still suffering the consequences of it. Consequences that after 20 years have little chance of being reversed! I cannot get into details because confidences would be broken. But suffice it to say his only concern at that time was not to help this young man but to help himself by gaining the support of a wealthy friend in doing this con.

2. From a comment on ViN:

I have been involved with Kiruv for over three decades. Close to thirty years ago a university student underwent a Giyur Kehalacha when he discovered that his mother was converted by Conservative rabbis. A week later he went to Yeshivas Ohr Sameach. A few weeks ago EJF told him that his Giyur may not be good because they have questions of the Rabbonim who did it. Who is a erliche Orthodox Rav and does not do kulahs in Giyur. This shocking action is beyond belief. The EJF did not call the Rabbomin in question. They just put the Safek in the mind of this person 3 decades later. We need a proper structure in Giyur, and proper standards kept. However the idea that Rabbonim in Monsey, or Meah Shearim will suddenly begin to question Geirus done properly is outrageous. There is no historical precedent for this. There are a small group of Rabbonim aligned with EJF that have attempted to impose their view on Gierus. They are overreaching and creating havoc in the Jewish community.

3. From a comment on ViN:

I went to Rav Reuven Feinstein when the now infamous former head of the EJF tried to stop my marriage to my wife who is a giyores. He claimed that the Rov who was migayer her did not know what he was doing. Rbe Reuven told me that her geirus was fine. We are married now. The head of EJF got what he deserved for the pain he caused me and many others.

4. From a comment on ViN:

I converted years ago and have been frum from the time I emerged from the mikvah and the EJF told me my conversion was invalid because of the rabbonim on the beis din, all of whom were frum Orthodox rabbonim by the way. I was not the only person this happened to. Of course the EJF offered to 'fix' it for a substantial sum of money. How nice of them.

5. From Rabbi Natan Slifkin:

Also involved in the campaign against my books was Yaakov Kalmanowitz's brother,Rabbi Osher Kalmanowitz of the Mir Yeshivah in New York. He did not want to openly involve himself, and so he recruited his friend Rabbi Leib Tropper of Yeshivas Kol Yaakov in Monsey. Rabbi Tropper created a story that was told to the Rabbis who were approached to condemn the books. The story involved two students in his yeshivah, described as "angelic," who allegedly dropped out of yeshivah and left Orthodoxy after reading my books and concluding that "if the Sages could have been wrong about science, then they could have been wrong about everything." Rabbi Elya Wachtfogel, the primary rabbinic authority behind this ban, presented this story as grounds for his campaign. I myself was shaken when I heard about this story, but my mentors were skeptical and advised my to investigate it. The investigation showed that one of them was barely observant to begin with, and dropped out of yeshivah before my book on the Sages' knowledge of science was published. The other left Kol Yaakov and went to YU; he wrote to me that it was nothing to do with my books, which strengthened his Judaism, but he noted that the rabbis in Kol Yaakov did not like them.

EJF: Kiruv or Geirus?/ RaP

RaP:wrote:

EJF is now going all out in its alliances with Kiruv organizations as is evident from its scheduled events from November 2009 to May 2010, (as of Nov 10, 2009). The point to note is that almost all these events are being set up and run on a normal basis by the kiruv organizations themselves who do this constantly as part of their programming and scheduling of events to "reach out" to new students and educate them in Yiddishkeit as they try to mekarev them to full Torah observance. But this cannot explain or excuse EJF from sticking out like a sore thumb and a black sheep because EJF is NOT and has NEVER been a kiruv organization. It has always trumpeted its goal of helping couples get conversions for gentiles where one partner is hitched to a gentile and help the gentile partner become an EJF-style ultra charedi convert to Judaism under Rabbi Tropper's authority and supervision forevermore. In this regard EJF has always had a controversial proselytizing agenda by reaching out to GENTILES that is in a direct conflict of interest with pure kiruv where the agenda is to reach out to JEWS and make them more Torah observant. Obviously something has gone horribly wrong as EJF has managed to penetrate kiruv organizations and compromise them at a time when they need hard cash to keep going something that Tropper can provide through the good graces of Tom Kaplan but which creates more problems than it solves in the long run. Simply put: WHO LEADS THIS ENTIRE EFFORT, EJF WITH ITS UNABASHED PROSELYTIZING AGENDA OR THE OUTREACH ORGANIZATIONS WITH THEIR PURE KIRUV AGENDA?:

For November 2009:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/
For December 2009:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2009/12/
For January 2010: http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/01/
For February 2010:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/02/
For March 2010:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/03/
For April 2010:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/04/

Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and mixed couples

I was sent a recent recording of Rav Reuven Feinstein,shlita regarding kiruv and mixed couples. He explicitly says that it is prohibited to advertise and promote seminars to attract mixed couples to come with the hope that they will eventually convert. He says that is only permitted to strengthen those couples that come on their own with a genuine interest to learn more about Judaism and without an awareness that mixed marriages are prohibited. Only such couples who are interested lshem shamayim are to be converted while those who know that intermarriage is wrong are to be rejected. He says it is not only his view but it is one Rav Eliashiv, shlita, expressed when they asked him what was permitted. Rav Reuven's view is the one I have long defended as normative against R' Tropper and his representative Roni - while they defended the view which Rav Reuven explicity rejects on this recording. Below is an example of EJF's advertisement for attracting mixed couples to a seminar - exactly that which Rav Reuven says on this recording is clearly prohibited.

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EJF declares world-wide war on intemarriage

Eternal Jewish Family Blog

The Eternal Jewish Family International (EJF) has launched a major initiative on three continents to stem the tide of soaring intermarriage in Jewish communities in the US, Israel and Europe. Eternal Jewish Family is partnering with the largest and most successful kiruv (outreach) organizations, such as Ohr Somayach — Jerusalem, Hidabroot, Lev L'achim and Nefesh Yehudi in reaching out to large numbers of Jewish youth "with a direct message on the threat of intermarriage to themselves, their families, and the Jewish future". In the US, Eternal Jewish Family will team up with Gateways in reaching vulnerable youth. "This epidemic of intermarriage can only be confronted with 'straight talk' about the dangers of intermarriage", said Rabbi Leib Tropper, Rosh Yeshiva of Kol Yaakov/Horizons and the chairman of the Rabbinical Board of Eternal Jewish Family. "We can no longer afford to beat around the bush in the hope that the anti-intermarriage message will somehow penetrate". In many instances, Eternal Jewish Family will be cosponsoring seminars and Shabbatonim for the Jewish youth where special sessions will be devoted to the dangers of intermarriage. The first such Shabbaton in March was held in Baden, Austria in a joint program with Nefesh Yehudi for more than 100 Israeli medical students in Central and Eastern Europe. Eternal Jewish Family will be joining the outreach (kiruv) organizations in many similar seminars in the coming months.

EJf - June 2009 conference in Jerusalem

EJF Blog

IT WAS BY ALL accounts an unprecedented gathering of leading kiruv rabbanim from around the world, as well as rabbanim in cities and towns throughout Israel. The event took place from June 15–17, 2009 at Jerusalem's Inbal Hotel. The sponsor was the Eternal Jewish Family International, which is in the midst of a major global expansion of its activities to support rabbanim and batei din involved with intermarried couples who genuinely strive for a halachic conversion to Judaism. It also assists kiruv organizations that are on the front lines in the fight against assimilation, such as the co-sponsors of the event: Arachim Ohr Somayach Hidabroot Lev L'achim Shuvu Nefesh Yehudi In the U.S., it also includes the Gateways organization.

The rabbanim deliberated on such topics as "Worldwide Assimilation: Today's Spiritual Holocaust", "Building Barriers Against Fictitious Conversions to Judaism," Anti-Semitism and Assimilation: Cause or Effect?", and "Determining the Status of Certain 'Jews' in the Community". The rabbanim, who represented numerous cities around the globe, expressed their deepest concern over the grave issue of world-wide assimilation. In addition, they addressed a growing problem in Israel where many young people return from study abroad with non-Jewish spouses. Kiruv experts spoke of the dangers facing Israeli youth in Israel. They resolved to step up the educational efforts to hopefully thwart this growing trend. The tone of the historic conference was set by Eternal Jewish Family's chairman, Menachem Yitzchak (Tom) Kaplan who noted that "in my wildest dreams I could not imagine such a rapid and broad acceptance by rabbanim all over the world of the vision we laid out with the help of the leading Torah authorities". Kaplan said that he was "committed to do whatever it takes to take on assimilation and problematic conversions to Judaism wherever the problem exists". Rabbi Leib Tropper, the organization's chairman of the Halachic Committee, spoke of the successes of Eternal Jewish Family in "raising the bar on conversions to Judaism and successfully uniting rabbanim and dayanim from disparate backgrounds in preserving kedushas yisroel". The theme of kedushas yisrael was also addressed by some of the notable gedolei yisrael and leading rabbanim who participated in the conference. [...]

EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted

The self (?) appointed spokesman for R' Tropper - Roni has left a new comment on "EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni": I am making it into a post because of what it reveals about the true nature of Eternal Jewish Family. What Roni is asserting here - and I received a letter from R' Tropper to the same effect - There is nothing wrong with proselytizing as long as one does not walk up to a non-Jew and try and convert him. However putting out come-on notices on the internet, ads in the newspapers, or offering all-expenses paid vacations in swank resorts to listen to top speakers promoting conversion is allowed since the non-Jew is attracted to come and you don't go to him. Furthermore it is asserted that Rav Reuven Feinstein - the posek for Eternal Jewish Family - permits this. They also insist that this is not proselytizing but merely kiruv. (You might also notice Roni's liberal use of ad hominem arguments - something which R' Tropper vehemently protests when they come from his critics). In sum the position of Eternal Jewish Family (with the apparent backing of Rav Reuven Feinstein ) is that encouraging non-Jew (especially intermarried couples) to convert is not halachically prohibited - as long as they accept the obligation to keep all the mitzvos in the chareidi way. Thus attracting non-Jews and then pressuring them to convert is not problematic - as long as in the end they agree to keep all the mitzvos as a chareidi Jew. It is also clear from their advertisements that they don't restrict their activities to intermarried couples. I would suggest R' Tropper find a less embarrassing defender.

RAp, talking like a real am hooretz, can you start answering the question "Where in Shulchan Oruch is there aN ISSUR to encourage an intermarried person to convert",

You are unable to start any conversation. You and Dt (and the third stooge) cannot even begin to have a rational discussion over this matter, you do not know where to being so you start with the new testament of

"You are not Rav Yosef Karo writing the Shulchan Oruch and interpreting it definitively nor are you the only one who says "where does it say in the shulchan oruch this and that" like a beginner. Some things are so pushut that the shulchan oruch doesn't have to spell them out,",

like a real am hooretz....you and your colleagues shout from the top of your longues for years about this terrible tragedy and issur and after your introduction of false sources (like a real ignoramus that you are) you now state that this is "so poshut the the SO does not have to spell it out", yet the SO does not find it so poshut to spell out that you are not allowed to convert for the sake of marriage?!?!

All your questions do NOT HAVE ONE HALACHIK SOURCE, BUT YOUR NEW TESTAMENT! You are such a boor that you cannot even begin to bring some halachik points mentioned by Rav Sternbuchwhose points were STRONGLY REJECTED BY RAV MOSHE FEINSTEIN, RAV HENKIN, RAV SZ AURBACH, RAV Y KAMENETZKY AND MORE!

yOU SHOTEH OTZUM "NEW TESTAMENT" IS SOMEONE WHO CHANGES THE LAWS OF YIDDISHKEYT! AND FOR THE UMPEENTH TIME YOU CAN REPEAT LIEK THE BROKEN RECORD, BUT RT DIDN'T BEGIN TO MAKE THE MISSIONARY CONVERSIONS THAT YOUR FRIEND BOMZER MADE...YOUR KRUMMER BROKEN RECORD AND THE SOUR CHOLLENTS ARE GETTING WORSE BY THE DAY YOU DON'T QUALIFY EVEN FOR A "MEGALEH PONIM BETORAH" AS YOUR KRUMKEYT HAS GOT NOTHING WITH TORAH...

So that people do not forgeth the content: The question posed to RAP. DT and the third stooge was: Where is the source in HALACHA that it is ossur to encourage intermarried cpules to covnert???

THese fellow twist and turn but are unable to talk about the issue...

EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni

After two years of repeated requests - our chaver Roni has succeeded in providing us with two critical pieces of information regarding Eternal Jewish Family. 1) The teshuva of Rav Reuven Feinstein, shlita - which provides the halachic rationale for EJF's kiruv (proselytization) of the non-Jewish spouse in mixed marriages 2) the explanation presented below of why there are no written haskomas from the many gedolei Torah who are actively associated with the organization or at least attend their conferences.

I would like to publicly thank Roni for his tenacity and desire to present the truth as he sees it and the countless hours he has spent trying to explain and defend R' Tropper's activies. It has obviously been an unpleasant experience for him to constantly face and explain to those of us who are less than sympathetic to what is going on. I will also reiterate what I have said a number of times before - I think that R' Tropper and his associates are working leshem Shamayim. However that doesn't preclude the possibility that their approach can be harmful and fail as Roni admits below. I will be transferring a number of comments from the previous posting that are relevant to this thread. Please keep your comments to the point, respectful and avoid personal attacks.

With these pieces of information I think it is possible to have a more productive discussion of these issues. I would like to note that Roni seems to feel Rav Reuven's interpretation of his father's position and other statement as Daas Torah. I apologize if I misunderstood this and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong. I just want to reiterate a conversation I had with Rav Dovid Feinstein regarding this issue of his father's authority. He said, "I never heard my father justify his psak by saying that it was Daas Torah." Rav Moshe clearly states this in his introduction to Igros Moshe, the essence of his rulings are sevoras. His rulings are to be judged by the perceived validity of his sevoras. He also acknowledges that he is capable of error but that since he has put so much time and effort in arriving at the conclusion which he thinks is correct - one should not be hasty to dismiss it but to seriously analyze his opinion. I don't think that his son's views should be approached with a higher level of authority than that of his father.

[Roni asked that I add the following]

Before I respond to your recent post: I must reiterate and please post this as an addendum to your head post: That the*TESHUVA* IS Rav Reuven's; but the second issue the (the explanation why there are no written haskomos to the *organization* (not that there are not *halachik teshuvas* and discussions, BECAUSE THERE CERTAINLY ARE! PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE WHAT i SAID), ARE MINE ONLY AND MAY NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE REAL REASONING BEHIND THAT! BUT MY FEELING IS THAT THESE (AND MAYBE THERE ARE OTHERS) ARE THE REASONS WHY THEY WOULD NOT GIVE A *HASKAMAh* TO A INDIVIDUAL ORGANIZATION! (AS PROBABLY HAPPENS IN *SOME* OTHER ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT A DIFFERENT NATURE).

PLEASE DO NOT ATTRIBUTE THAT TO RAV REUVEN OR TO RAV TROPPER FOR I AM SAYING THIS ON MY OWN.

Roni wrote in response to Mekubal: ( I have made a number of corrections in to the original post)

4) the most important question: Why does he not get haskamot?

I'll give you possible answers which do not mean that they do not agree with him. a) Being that it is a novel approach. Practically speaking this method was not used especially with such an intensity therefore any respected RESPONSIBLE POSSEK would not necessarily want to to put his paper to endorse an organization if Chas Vesholom it does not succeeded to reach the hopeful goals.

b) Maybe others may follow suit and misuse the idea of the organization to take it a step further and perform these conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot. He does not want to take this public step to put his name on paper to that level.

c) and no Rabbi puts his name to sign on an organization which may in the future stumble on occasion and do something that is not correct and then people might mistake that this particular action had the approval of the Rabbi as he signed on the organization.

But on the other hand Rav Reuven partakes himself as member of the Organization. He is involved in guiding them in the Halachik Shaylos and so on. You can see the Teshuva that I posted earlier (and I"ll try BLN to scan it to Dt) as the teshuva Rav Reuven wrote to EJF where he rules on the focal question of the blog to Rav Tropper and he cites that his father the Posek HaDor HaRAv Moshe Feinstein of B"m permitted the issue in certain conditions (which is exaclty what EJF attempts to follow).

EJF promotes conversion for intermarried

Recipients and Publicity commentary on latest developments with EJF "Eternal Jewish Family - R' Tropper's blog":

EJF promotes conference with Kiruv organizations, while its theme is "Converting Intermarried Couples", yet is set to promote the toughest approach to conversion itself, as EJF and Rabbi Tropper are forced to issue an official public apology and explanation to the RCA over another conversion incident. Firstly the apology:

(1) EJF and Rabbi Tropper have issued the following on the official EJF website:

"EJF Updates 05/11/2009

EJF Clarifies Stand on RCA Geyrus

A media report that appeared to challenge the validity of a geyrus performed by a rabbi affiliated with the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) was not authorized by EJF. The report made it appear as if EJF was critical of the geyrus, when in fact EJF was never privy to the circumstances behind the giyur. While questions were raised about the procedure that led up to the giyur, EJF at no time ruled on the status of the conversion. It likewise never authorized anyone affiliated with the organization to address the giyur in the media. EJF International apologizes for any misunderstanding, particularly in a case where the Rosh Bais Din who performed the conversion is a true Talmid Chacham. In commenting on the giyur, Rabbi Leib Tropper noted, “Our standards that are based on the halachic rulings of past and present gedolei yisroel are well known and not subject to compromise. Both EJF and RCA agree that any differences should be aired between rabbinic leaders of both organizations and not in the media.” [to finish reading click on this link and read comments]

R' Tropper - is he good for the Jews?

While we have had some discussions about the validity of R' Tropper's approach, we have not really focused on the consequences.

R' Tropper is using geirus as a tool in kiruv. When he finds that a baal teshuva is stuck because he is married to a non-Jew he switches hats and works to have the non-Jew become a Jew. Thus he reasons it is a win win situation. The Jew becomes fully observant and his wife becomes Jewish. Their children now will add to the Jewish population instead of destroying it. The only down side, he reasons, is that the age old practice of not proselytizing needs to be bent a bit. Any problems with this he reasons are made up for by requiring the convert to adopt an Orthodox life style. Seem like a nice neat package. Why should anyone be upset with it.

Let us list the reasons.

1) He has removed the age old stigma to intermarriage. There is absolutely no consequences of intermarriage. If you ever want to legitimate it he is standing there with open arms. Of course since not all Jews want to be Orthodox - therefore he contributes to the intermarriage rate by allowing everyone to chose a non-Jewish partner without the slightest guilt or consequence. Consequences unknown. But we can reasonably assume that more Jews will intermarry with R' Tropper looking the other way - then will return to Judaism with a converted bride.

2) Let's assume that not everyone that R' Tropper converts will stay frum. Because he has such high standards and is makpid on kabbalos mitzvos - all of his converts will definitely become Jews. However the statistics from the past tell us that at least half will back slide. They will then become irreligious Jews. If he wasn't so meticulous then when the convert goes back they were never Jewish in the first place. If he wasn't so meticulous then the back sliding converts will be genuine non-Jews.

3) The consequences of having converts who are genuine Jews and were married in a genuine marriage - but who give up observance is very simple - mamzerim. Rav Moshe solved the mamzerus problem from the Reform and Conservative by saying their marriages were non valid. Similarly their converts are not valid. Not so R'Tropper's converts. However everyone of R' Tropper's converts is a potential producer of mamzerim.

4) An additional consequences in back sliding will be on the communities and families.

This is similar to the statement about Sedom. They had horrible laws - which weren't enforced until an honest judge Lot came along. It is specifically because he is makpid on keeping the laws that he is causing problems.

In sum. For R' Tropper to come along and introduce a change in the dynamic of the Jewish community he needs to show that what he is doing is beneficial. It is not enough to say that when he converts people they were frum. Rav Chaim Ozer had such a view and then 20 years later radically altered it to say that a decent beis din should not do conversions. Similarly Rav Moshe Feinstein knew all the hetirim but personally had nothing to do with geirus. What are the two, five and ten years statistics on Rabbi Troppers' converts. What is their impact on marriage and children?

EJF - Cost Benefit analysis

bandit has left a new comment on your post "EJF defended":

If the world of kiruv would be perfect and they would be concentrating on teaching people, one by one, Torah and mitzvos and they ran into the problem of intermarried couples we would understand (though not agree with) EJF's position. However, the vast majority of kiruv is half-baked and aimed at improving people's feelings towards Judaism instead of teaching them Torah. This may not be a problem (although probably is) but once we start doing other things because of kiruv we have to reevaluate. If someone out there believes kiruv to be changing lobster eaters into latke eaters he will be bringing his clients to this beis din too. When a spouse converts are they accepting all mitzvos? Are they accepting a path that leads to all mitzvos? They are statistically more likely to divorce. What will happen then? If the geyrus is kosher they may still act like goyim, not having seen their geyrus in any context other than connected to their Jewish former spouse. This can create problems with mamzeyrus. If the geyrus is not kosher we are left with more problems. For EJF to say that they only accept geyrus with KM is allowing them to create a problem and then try and create a solution. That is a dangerous approach.

As a sidebar, the Chasam Sofer writes in a letter that when fighting evil one must take care not to attack people personally for two reasons. One, because the argument makes less sense when it includes a personal attack. Two, because the evil stands on its own and even if the perpetrator dies or leaves the scene the evil must still be fought. The personal digs in these comments (both against R' Bomzer and R' Tropper and each other) detract from the weight of the argument.

One last point. The ads printed in the Jewish media have quoted lists of teshuvos supporting them. I made it my project to research them and I was shocked to see that not one proved their point. It was a good lesson to me to research everything . But the credibility of this organization took a severe beating. Who knows what other lies are being said?

Father's Jewish - try to convert?

This is an excerpt from R' Aryeh Ginzburg's sefer [pp 266-267.] As a young man he went around to gedolim with many important questions. He compiled this sefer from the answers. I personally find the sefer very frustrating since these are not teshuvos written by gedolim. Consequently there is no context or clarity. In other words you can't rely on these halacha le'maseh. It is also not valid to make diyukim in what he says. On the other hand he had very solid haskomas. Bottom line this material is thought provoking and encourages further study of the matter. The full sefer itself is available at Hebrew Books

There is a fundamental difference between what Rabbi Tropper is doing and the possible heter of a number of gedolim. As Rabbi Fuerst of Chicago has pointed out.

Are we dealing with someone who views themselves as Jewish? Someone who views themselves as Jewish and is enrolled in a Jewish school or attending kiruv meetings - is a serious problem for intermarriage. Rav Moshe Feinstein also suggests converting non-Jewish children who are attending a day school. He also says a similar heter regarding the Ethiopians in Israel who view themselves as Jewish.

On the other hand Rabbi Tropper is targeting non-Jews who have no doubt that they are not Jewish and are married to Jews. He claims that conversion is necessary for the sake of kiruv for the Jewish spouse.

Non of the gedolim mentioned advocated running after intermarried couples. In fact Rav Eliashiv explicitly stated concerning kiruv that the time honored practice has always been to ostracize such couples. Rav Eliashiv also makes an exception for a Jew who is married to a non-Jew who mistakenly thinks he/she is Jewish.

EJF - RaP's recapitulation

RaP responds to Roni's questions from a previous "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":
===============================
To Roni who said... "It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper"

RaP: Nope, I am not on a "rampage" and you are mistaking and confusing a serious interest in this subject and thorough analysis and misnaming it a "rampage" simply because you don't like the concluions. Stop calling names and acting "frum" and holier-than-thou and debate the points in detail, if you can.

Furthermore, if you had even bothered to read some of my other posts you will see that I have defended Rabbi Tropper many times right here on this very blog, and in depth, trying to fathom and explain where he is coming from on kiruv and geirus issues and I even took Rabbi Tropper's hashkafic point of view against the owner of this blog and some of his serious supporters in the complex and sad Rabbi Slifkin saga (but I do not support Rabbi Tropper's alleged methods in slandering Rabbi Slifkin against other gedolim.)

If you don't believe me, please see the following five posts on this blog for yourself:

1) My post at "Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?" at where I tried to explain Rabbi Tropper's complex position that became a new post at:

2) "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis" at See my comments there that which shows my deepest sympathies with Rabbi Tropper's present struggles:

"Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules. Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others. In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles."

3) "R' Slifkin - context of ban /Ra" at where I even say:

"You know, this is where you have to admire Rabbi Tropper's kiruv derech that at least he does not lose himself or his students on all this fake double-talk about having some sort of allegiance to science and secular knowledge when as he rightly holds, Torah is not a substance that can be mixed or diluted with anything else to prove its powers and validity" and defending him "It's now le'acaher hama'aseh, and to get back to the point, Rabbi Tropper, at the end of the day is just a cog in what turned out to be pretty hefty Haredi machine. What can you do, that is just the way it goes sometimes."

4) "Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it!" at l where I state that

"Rabbi Leib Tropper went in the other direction, feeling that both Ohr Somaych and Aish HaTorah had lost sight of their main mandate of basing everying ONLY on intense Gemora learning and rapid paced transformation to being a Ben Torah (not a bad goal but not as attractive to the nasses as Aish HaTorah's appeal, as is evident.)...Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva also in Monsey that stresses only the learning element, even though it does have an outrecah "Horizons" program...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER..."And much of the above became the new post at:

5) "Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers" at

So at this time, unless you can acknowledge otherwise, it is obvious that you have not been reading those posts but just come here and make a few belly-aching comments simply because you don't like a few things you hear here.

"and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign."

RaP: Can you point to the alleged "irrationality" you IMAGINE? Is the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn "irrational", who posted I, II and and many other posts like this and who posts his and others' comments after serious review of each comment and who opposes the EJF effort and Rabbi Tropper's methods? Is Rav Moshe Shternbuch "irrational" for opposing efforts, see "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation" and "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews and "Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad" like those of Rabbi Tropper and the EJF? Is the entire BADATZ of the powerful Eidah HaChareidis "irrational" (are Horav Meir Brandsorfer, Horav Moshe Sternbuch, Horav Naftoli Frenkal, Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman, Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch, Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg ALL "irrational" too for signing it?) see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and of taking the extreme measure of openly, see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and rebuking and warning dayanim and batei din all over the world who were Recipients of its official warning letters and giving Publicicty to it, authorising its dissemination online through this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn. It has been Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn who has asked for written Halachik clarifications from Rabbi Tropper and EJF and none has been forthcoming, so take it up with him if you think he and others being "irrational" for asking for a written reason al pi din and for his efforts EJF tried to smear him, see "EJF smear campaign"

"While I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans,"

RaP: You do? Like what? This may be the seed of some fruitful discussions perhaps, don't you think? instead of hiding behind smokescreens and blaming others of being "irrational" when you have no good RATIONAL and LOGICAL and FACTUAL arguments or proofs of your own to produce, so far.

"your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim."

RaP: You are wrong and Rabbi Tropper has yet to prove that everything he does is "leshem shamayim" and not coming from his notorious over-sized ego that brooks no opposition and who yells at anyone who dares oppose him.

Rabbi Tropper does not need "defenders" that make him look like he is the "poor little victim" of something when he is not.

Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan sat down and decided on their own on a new scheme, that went far beyond in a quantum leap from Rabbi Tropper's world of kiruv and his Baal teshuva Kol Yaakov Yeshiva (which he ran very well) and would now branch into the world of batei din and geirus (based on many reasons that I have discussed in my other posts) that they called "EJF" and how to sell it to rabbonim and to the frum world and of course to the world of gentiles who were married or hitched to Jews and who would now be targeted for being inspired to get "real" conversions at Batei Din, and how to implement all this as if this was a "product" like Coca Cola that was being launched based on a business plan with lots of financing and professionalism behind it. So let's get real please and not talk like babies.

"With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer),"

RaP: Quite honestly, nobody on this blog could give a hoot about Rabbi Bomzer because if you had read all the posts seriously you will see that most posters here are against ANY kind of easy conversions no matter from who, be it Rabbi Bomzer, Chabad, kiruv organizations and workers, the RCA, the Israeli Rabbanut and now including Rabbi Tropper and his EJF. So cut out the nonsense because noone on this blog cares about or has anything to do with Rabbi Bomzer.

"he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!"

RaP: All this is interesting, but not to the point and only proves that YOU want to now smear Rabbi Bomzer. If you want to get into these kind of discussions, then you will discover that most situations involving geirus involve matters of self-interest somewhere along the line. It was Rabbi Tropper's connection with Tom Kaplan whose sister married to a man of Hispanic ancestry (Otto Aguiar) and who needed a conversion for himself and son ("Guma Kaplan Aguiar is the son of Ellen Kaplan.") that was a huge factor dragging Rabbi Tropper into this whole EJF adventure, see "Who is behind Eternal Jewish Family?" and "Is Eternal Jewish Family the center of the universe?" It may be rabbis who need money and charge fees, or interfaith couples who lie about their true intentions just to fool the dayanim, entire rabbinates and batei din that are not respected and are negated by other batei din, like happeened to Rabbi Drukman at the hands of Rav sherman and the High Court of the Rabbanut and Rabbi Tropper at the hands of the Bais Din of the Eidah Hachareidis for attempts at working to facilitate mass conversions. So while talking about RabbI bomezer may be true and interesting it is not much different to all the other problems that will arise for rabbis in the geirus business. So again, quit harping about Rabbi Bomzer, because he is already history, noone here really cares about him, and the focus is now on Rabbi Troppe and EJF and it would be apprecaited if you can expa=lain to us what Rabbi Tropper and EJF are doing that is so great that in the meantime so many people are having genuine Halachic issues with it.

"Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis"

RaP: Noone is defedning anyone here if you haven't noticed. This is a forum for discussion and you are welcome to join it instead of standing on the sidelines making silly comments.

"an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!"

RaP: Again you fail to understand that this is a serious matter that is under discussion and just by saying that Rabbi Reuven feinstein like Rabbi tropper and wishes him well, while on this blog Rabbi Tropper has been asked dozens of times to produce WRITTEN haskomas from Rav Reuven or Rav Dovid Feinstein and he still does not, must mean that RabbI tropper does not have a written haskoma to do outreach to gentiles in order to get them to convert and marry Jewish spouses. This is no different to learning any sugya where the subject is open and we must look for answers and if no official answers are given it is possible to speculate for motives that require greater clarity. Can you answer this question please: Does or has Rav Reuven shlit"a or Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a or any institutions they head ever received financial backing and donations from Dr. Tom Kaplan and one his family or any businesses and foundations they head? Let's get real with some real questions instead of your bobba-maises.

"Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails."

RaP: Right, and Rabbi Tropper is not unique and he cannot be blamed for every person he once mekareved and then went off the rails. And just like I would not blame Rabbi Tropper for his kiruv failures noone can blame any serious Orthodox rabbi who is a dayan for conversions when converts go off the rails because just like SOME Baalei teshuva fail in the end to stay frum, many geirim in the end fail in the end to stick to their commitments to be truly Halachically Jewish. And guess what, every religious Bar Mitzva boy starts out good but by the time his life is over many Jews are off the derech, and it is not always the fathers' and mothers' who must be blamed. But while all that is intersting, this is not what this discussion is about, which is the determination of Rabbi Tropper and RJF to pursue mass conversions for goyim, which even for the best and frummest of reasons, MUST result in a huge catatsrophe for Klal Yisroel, and per force mass Chillul hashem in its wake, and he should be convinced to stop now at all costs, before his "solutions" and "cures" become worse than the diseases and plagues of assimilation and intermarriage.