Kiruv VII - Aish HaTorah - what makes it tick?

Recipients and Publicity commented on "Kiruv VI - an embarrassingly shoddy attack on Aish...":

AISH HATORAH AND CONTROVERSY ARE NOT NEW TO EACH OTHER!

While Aish HaTorah is arguably the most successful young adult kiruv program in the world (not inclusive of Chabad, or of NCSY with is for teens), starting from a handful of students in the mid-1970s its empire has been built up by its founder, guide and rosh yeshiva, Rav Noach Weinberg, from a dream he had and a handful of students to a worldwide multi-multi-million empire that has recruited billionaires, and the likes of Hollywood directors and moguls like Steven Spielberg and has spawned programs that have promoted the likes of Margaret Thatcher, Bibi Netanyahu and Micheil Gorbachev and many others.

It is well known that in the USA, Rav Elya Svei, the rosh yeshiva of the Philadelphia yeshiva, had often levelled public criticism's of them and that it was part of a rivalry of Hashkofas between the very yeshivish Rav Elya Svei and Rav Noach's brother and Aish's mentor the more eclectic Rav Yaakov Weinberg, late rosh yeshiva of Ner Israel in Baltimore MD.

The Haredi world in America is never sure what to make of Aish HaTorah and how to react to them.

Essentially Aish stays clear of all major yeshivas and their leadership in America.

They have there own internal leadership system with the most successful Aish rabbis (meaning those who have raised the most millions or better yet, tens of millions each for Aish) and they answer to no one but Rav Noach Weinberg and a few carefully chosen close assistants that act like a "ruling council" based mostly in Aish Jerusalem. All Aish rabbis have their own internal conference in Jerusalem at least once a year and they all the skills and tools of the modern technological and business age.

The Aish HaTorah phenomenon ties in with the second phase of the age of kiruv in the world. The first Golden Phase of Kiruv from the early 1950s to the 1980s was an idealistic age with Baalei Teshuva returning for idealistic reasons and few old-time Aish rabbis come from that time, but they are a tiny minority.

Most Aish rabbis were hand-picked and groomed from the 1980s onwards, they are Yuppies - with a "Y" - (short for "young urban professional" or "young upwardly-mobile professional") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuppie Generations X-ers (a term used to describe generations in many countries around the world born from 1965 to around 1982) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X who are "operators" and businessmen with the attitudes of investment bankers and hedge fund speculators, products of the rise of the age of the "Masters of the Universe" types, as described in the Tom Wolf novel "The Bonfire of the Vanities" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonfire_of_the_Vanities when Wall Street greed and materialism were the order of the day and the age of the Hippies (with an "H") was finally buried.

Aish HaTorah understands the age of materialism and the shallowness that is the outcome of the comfortable lifestyle and it has adjusted its calling card and signal to that frequency and thereby gets its audience's attention, but at the same time, many of its cadre of activist rabbis also come from this same milieu and while that may make them superb kiruv professionals, but to some looking in from the outside they can come across and are seen for the shallow, power hungry, manipulative and GREEDY lot that they often are.

So that rather than knocking the writer of this article and saying "well there go the secular again" try to stop a minute, take what it says with a grain of salt and not get so self-righteously upset that only looks like a smokescreen for honest debate and analysis, and tune in to the inner core of what is being said and it is not a flattering picture because the truth in this case is not flattering.

Now of course making people frum is a great thing and it is what kiruv is ultimately all about, but it is known among all reliable kiruv circles that Aish HaTorah plays loose with lots and lots of things to achieve its own goals and it is well-known in the kiruv world that Aish will facilitate with shady conversions if they have to, and it cannot be otherwise because they are so connected to the intermarried young generation X-ers and many of them are just not Halachic Jews. Like for Chabad, and for Rabbi Leib Tropper and his EJF, it's tough for Aish because so much BIG money, prestige, power and jobs are at stake!

So it's a tough call for them and for the frum world that is expecting positive fruits from all this kiruv activity and hallabaloo, but to resort to knee-jerk defenses of Aish on this blog is not required because Aish has it's own websites and propaganda machines that are supported by tens of millions of dollars that are meant to go to kiruv and "outreach" so let's see how they react it and not shed crocodile tears for them.

There is much more to be said about Aish and how it has both helped and corrupted the world of kiruv. They want to have their cake and eat it so that sometimes that can lead to indigestion and vomit.

To be continued...

Kiruv V - Orthodox and Reform meld - the slippery slope

Recipients and Publicity in his continuing series on the dynamics of contemporary kiruv

KIRUV TODAY: WHERE ORTHODOXY AND REFORM MEET!

Or

THE AGE OF ORTHODOX AND HAREDI KIRUV MEETS REFORM AND CONSERVATIVE KERUV!

Or

1980s to the present: A dangerous turning point in the history of Kiruv Rechokim and the Baal Teshuva Movement and Revolution.

Just in passing reference to Chabad, it would be worthy to note that with the mere existence of Chabad husband & wife shluchim/shluchos teams, lets assume that there are about five thousand of them in the wide world and if each couple brings in just one secular couple a year into their sphere of interest, not a far-fetched idea, then that makes five thousand new couples and ten thousand new "recruits" a year, and if even a quarter are not Halachically Jewish, then that means that all over the world, Chabad is responsible for pulling in 2,500 people into Jewish religious life who require Halachic conversions PER YEAR, and if one multiplies that over ten years that amounts to 25,000 people in that category which brings the entire matter to critical mass, and if one just doubles the figures assuming that Chabad rabbis and rebbetzins can each pull in more than one couple a year, that means that in the last ten years 50,000 people are involved in Chabad and Orthodox life who had not started out life as Halachic Jews, so that one clearly sees that what is happening is that with the success and spread of Orthodox kiruv, as practiced by Chabad or Aish HaTorah or NCSY or any group active in the field, many tens of thousands of non-Halachic Jews are being drawn in, just based on the UJA's groundbreaking and eye popping National Jewish Population Surveys (NJPS) www.ujc.org/njps of 1990 http://www.jewishdatabank.org/NJPS1990.asp and 2000 http://www.jewishdatabank.org/NJPS2000.asp (the 1990 report was so bad that they had to doctor the results of the 2000 report, but that is another subject) and that it is therefore beyond any shadow of a doubt that KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT OF REACHING OUT TO JEWS ONLY IS OVER, the "NEW" KIRUV IS ALL ABOUT REACHING BOTH JEWS AND THE NON-HALACHIC JEWS ATTACHED TO THEM. (That is why Rabbi Leib Tropper and his "kosher" EJF efforts are so cutting edge and relevant and when the BADATZ finally got to smell the coffee and wake up and sent notices out to Recipients and it received Publicity that ehrliche Orthodox rabbis were not to join in the EJF worldwide effort to welcome in non-Jews to Orthodoxy conversions no matter how "appealing" or "right" things mayy seem from a so-called kiruv perspective.)

And this brings us to the main topic of this post, that it can safely be stated, based on both the admissions of those in the field and the statistical and social realities, that the BROAD RANGED AGENDAS of BOTH the huge Orthodox/Haredi/Hasidic kiruv organisations and movements and those of the REFORM movement, with the Conservatives running a close second ARE THE SAME, in that they are:

(a) NOT to be repelled by the thought of having to reach out to non-Halachic Jews and even gentiles thereby rejecting them from mass strict Halachic conversions as required by Halacha itself of course, but on the contrary to

(b) REACH OUT and "MEKAREV" the non-Jewish and gentile spouses or children of non-Halachic Jews and provably gentile mothers, and even easing up on welcoming any gentiles who drop by a for "coffee and kiruv".

So that this is what it adds up to:

What the Reform and their Conservative allies are doing DE JURE (officially), the major kiruv movements are doing DE FACTO (unofficially) and at times even approaching the de jure efforts of Reform and even, believe it, being in the same boat with the same students and sharing the same synagogue spaces, such as when Orthodoxy's Rabbi Ephraim Buchwald's huge NJOP program http://www.njop.org/ runs programs for the last twenty years in almost every Reform, Conservative and even Reconstructionist synagogue and venue, not caring about Orthodox venues or what his Orthodox kiruv co-workers may think about it all!

It must be noted that Reform goes even further, that it has decided to outright proselytise gentiles not personally connected to Jews or Judaism in any way in order, they rationalize, to increase the numbers of Jews. This is like allowing a bunch of alcoholics to run a liquor business in the hope that they will bring in "more sobriety and more business" or like offering free bread and cheese to mice in the hope that they will join the human race in not being pests. All very distorted, yet taken very seriously in Reform and Conservative circles.

The Reform call it "keruv" with an "e" faking dikduk correctness, but the Reform and Conservatives are now as much into "keruv" as the Orthodox and Haredim are into the less correctly spelled "kiruv":

The official Reform movement site http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:R53f-qHU8NYJ:www.urj.org/outreach/+keruv+Reform&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us states openly:

"Union for Reform Judaism / Outreach

Reform Jewish Outreach serves a diverse population: men and women; interfaith and interracial couples; converts, those in the process of conversion and religious seekers; Jews of color; people of all sexual orientations; single adults and blended families; rich and poor; young and old and in-between.

As Reform Jews, we are committed to actively welcoming all and building vibrant, inclusive congregational communities. We seek to perform the mitzvot of ahavat ger (loving the stranger) and keruv (drawing near all who are far). The William & Lottie Daniel Department of Outreach and Membership, together with the URJ-CCAR Commission on Outreach and Membership, has a dual mission:

*to empower and encourage individuals and families, including interfaith families, to make meaningful Jewish choices in the context of membership in a Reform congregation

*to assist Reform congregations in their efforts to become sacred communities that welcome the full diversity of Jews and their families and those seeking to join or come closer to the Jewish people, through effective recruitment, engagement and lifelong retention of members"

And that gets one thinking, hey, if Reform is so positive about this stuff, instead of preaching the old doctrines of "Berlin is Jerusalem" and their notoriously schismatic Pittsburgh Platform (1885) opining that:

"3. We recognize in the Mosaic legislation a system of training the Jewish people for its mission during its national life in Palestine, and today we accept as binding only its moral laws, and maintain only such ceremonies as elevate and sanctify our lives, but reject all such as are not adapted to the views and habits of modern civilization.

4. We hold that all such Mosaic and rabbinical laws as regulate diet, priestly purity, and dress originated in ages and under the influence of ideas entirely foreign to our present mental and spiritual state. They fail to impress the modern Jew with a spirit of priestly holiness; their observance in our days is apt rather to obstruct than to further modern spiritual elevation.

5. We recognize, in the modern era of universal culture of heart and intellect, the approaching of the realization of Israel s great Messianic hope for the establishment of the kingdom of truth, justice, and peace among all men. We consider ourselves no longer a nation, but a religious community, and therefore expect neither a return to Palestine, nor a sacrificial worship under the sons of Aaron, nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning the Jewish state."

But see, today they talk of "keruv" and are actually envious of Chabad's and other Orthodox groups outreach that they must ape that, because in any case, most kiruv in the first stages does not expect anything different than just hanging out with the rabbis and attending some generalized classes and having a good time at Shabbat dinners "across America" or whatever.

The Conservative's Dr. Gary A. Tobin's "Opening the Gates: How Proactive Conversion Can Revitalize the Jewish Community" (San Francisco: Jossey Bass Publishers, 1999) and in http://www.jewishresearch.org/PDFs2/ShmaFamilies_4_03.pdf he concludes

"...The American image of Jews as either central or eastern European, largely Ashkenazi descendants from Fiddler on the Roof does not reflect the complexity of the American Jewish family.

Those who are subject to nostalgia often long for some particular time and place, and associate it with some particular mythology of “how life used to be. ”Moreover, the Jewish community as a whole continues to cling to an ideal that may not even be desirable. Maybe bringing non-Jews to be part of the Jewish people, for example, so that we grow and prosper rather than diminish is desirable rather than horrifying. Perhaps we should embrace the growing diversity rather than be afraid.

If the Jewish organizational and institutional structures — our synagogues, community centers, federations, and the vast array of human service and educational institutions — are going to do their job in helping the Jewish community to be vital and strong, they should embrace who we are, rather than lament who they think we used to be or think we should be. For, indeed, we live neither in the 1950s nor in the time of Abraham. We live in the 21st century, and we should deal with the reality of who we are—now."

The Conservatives also have a program called "Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs: Our Mission":

"The Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs is an organization of approximately 270 Conservative/Masorti Jewish men's groups consisting of 25,000 individuals across North America and the world. The FJMC involves Jewish men in Jewish life by building and strengthening Men's Clubs in the Conservative/Masorti Movement.

Our objectives are to train and develop leaders to build and strengthen Men's Clubs; to create and implement programs to involve men in Jewish life; and to be an active and influential participant in the Conservative/Masorti Movement."

And one of their biggest aims, is what else, "keruv" http://www.fjmc.org/keruv.html , naturally, with things like "Congregations with Keruv Programs and Consultants":

"What's a Keruv Consultant?

The Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs Keruv Initiative seeks to provide guidance and comfort to those within our congregations who are intermarried, whose children are intermarried, or who have extended family of another faith

Keruv Consultants are experts in the implementation of the FJMC Keruv programs, as defined by the FJMC Publications, HEARING MEN'S VOICES - VOLUMES FOUR & FIVE, Building the Faith & Let's Talk About It.

The issue of intermarriage confronts us as a community and within our own families. Given the fact of the dual faith marriage, how do we reach out to encourage these families to adopt a Jewish lifestyle, indeed to increase their involvement in Jewish life? Where do we begin as a congregation and as individuals to transform ourselves to make this outreach a success? should this be a priority at this time? With the publication of ''HEARING MEN'S VOICES: Building the Faith'' in 2001 there has been an outpouring of interest at program after program led by men's clubs in synagogues throughout North America"

and this is backed up with articles from the Baltimore Jewish Times "Conservatives Grapple With Intermarriage":

"The high stakes were not being glossed over.

"The bad news is, the way things are, there probably won't be a Conservative movement in 50 or 100 years," said Stephen Lachter, noting that the 2000 National Jewish Population Study saw the percentage of Conservative Jews slip below that of Reform ones. "The good news is that those of us in the Conservative movement have the power to change that."

Later, he added, "We are all Jews by choice. We make choices about our Judaism every day. It's not unusual that people move along. They take an introduction to Judaism course. They take a basic Hebrew course and then they convert to Judaism. That happens in our synagogue and I assume it happens elsewhere. You need to provide people with information. But you have to do it in a positive, effective way"."

and the Washington Jewish Week "consider best approaches to reaching out to intermarried families":

"...a new Conservative movement initiative to guide congregations in welcoming intermarried families.

The keruv think tank and training program last week in Baltimore was the second seminar organized by the Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs to help rabbis and lay leaders address a range of issues arising from intermarriage. (Keruv means "bring near" in Hebrew and is often used to refer to inreach and outreach.)

The seminar included sessions titled "Broaching Conversion to the Non-Jewish Partner" and "Developing Strategies for the Non-Jewish Spouse," as well as advice in areas such as the proper language Jews should utilize to talk to a non-Jewish son- or daughter-in-law...

But Simon stresses that the keruv project is not sanctioning intermarriage, but merely reacting to the large percentage of Conservative Jews with intermarriages in their own families -- and encouraging those who are intermarried to raise their children in the synagogue.

In addition, non-Jewish spouses who feel welcome are more likely to explore conversion, say Simon and local Jewish leaders who attended last week's conference.

"We need to figure out a way to welcome [the non-Jewish spouses of intermarried couples] into our shuls or lose these people," said Stephen Lachter, past president of the Adas Israel Men's Club and a keruv consultant who attended last week's seminar...

"As a result of having the kind of policy we're talking about, [and] without setting any kind of precondition, these individuals ultimately decided to embrace Judaism," Weinblatt said.

Lachter called the keruv initiative "the most profound and important thing going on in the Conservative movement today."

"What else could be more Jewish than to treat people in a caring way?"."

The important thing to note is that both the Reform and Conservatives have taken over and now embrace and welcome the language AND THE ACTIVITY of "keruv"/"kiruv" OPENLY, OFFICIALLY with unashamed keruv/outreach to those of doubtful Halachic Jewish status as well as to to pure gentiles, so that then it is really no different to the often HIDDEN, UNofficial yet also unabashed mekareving that Orthodox, Haredi and Chabad rabbis and kiruv workers are doing when they too lure and welcome into their midst the same people that that the Reform and Conservatives are now "keruving" out to.

This is a dangerous turning point in the history of Kiruv Rechokim and the Baal Teshuva Movement and Revolution.

In the first stage of the Golden Age of Kiruv from the 1950s to the 1980s when Reform and Conservative were still cock-sure of themselves and did not care if their youth joined "fringe groups" (and even if they did care, there was nothing they could do about it in any case), but from late 1980s and especially from 1990, when the frightening truths about intermarriage and Jews and gentiles welded and melded and wed to each came to the fore in the shape of the 1990 UJA sponsored National Jewish Population Survey in the USA they panicked and began their "keruv" initiatives to all and sundry and it was at that time, combined with the results of Reform's decision to accept patrilineal descent as being enough of a criterion for Jewishness that then meant that one could no longer take for granted the "Jewishness" of anyone who claimed to be Jewish, and with the rise in intermarraige across the board, THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT WAS OVER, and thus began THE AGE OF ORTHODOX AND HAREDI KIRUV MEETS REFORM AND CONSERVATIVE KERUV that has been ongoing from the late 1980s into the 21st century.

Thus the very real squabbles and battles over conversions, which are valid and which are not, and how far kiruv workers should be involved in the process has become a key issues all over the world. In Israel, the struggle involves rabbinical organs inside and outside of the official state of Israel's legal and legislative structure in both the Halachich and secular legal domains due to the political realities of living in the political state, but the issues are just as critical and burning in North America, the UK, Europe and wherever large groups of Jews are to be found facing the assimilation, intermarriage and conversion issues of the day.

The following analogy may be a little sharp, so please pardon it, but the word "kiruv" or as spelled "keruv" share the same root as the word "kirva" and alas also "kurva" and as much as "kirva" may refer to the elevated spiritual state of "kirvat Elokim" of being close to God, yet in another context and degrading sense there is also the word "kurva" in Hebrew and Yiddish which means "prostitute" since it is also a form of "coming (too) close" but of the wrong type of "closeness" that while it may give momentary pleasure also carries with it risks of disease and degradation and even death. Similarly the Biblical word "zona" can mean healthy "sustenance" and denote positive nutrition such as with breads as "mazon" yet it shares a root, if used against morality of "zona" a woman who "sustains" a man sexually with fleeting carnal pleasures for the wrong reasons and with degrading results that are paid for rather than attained in a moral and legitimate way.

The Reform and Conservative's "keruv" must be seen as the dark side of Orthodoxy's Kiruv in order for the Orthodox and Haredi kiruv rabbi and professional to retain a correct perspective and a clear conscience that they are not swimming in the same cesspools that the Reform and Conservatives created for themselves in the first place.

Thus it's clear that THE challenges for the Orthodox erhliche and Halachicaly uncomprisng kiruv rabbi and professional is to cut through the haze and the maze that now links Reform and Conservative "keruv" with Orthodox and Haredi "kiruv" OUT THERE IN THE FIELD, in the so-called "real world" where "East meets West" and how to split this atom requires the brains of an Einstein, the wisdom of a Solomon, and the prophetic spirit of Eliyahu Hanavi in CORRECTLY bringing the hearts of JEWISH fathers and mothers and JEWISH sons and daughters together but NOT to cause spiritual Chernobel-like meltdowns that will hurt everyone who comes close to the radioactive and toxic mess of the inevitable interplay between bad kiruv and conversion decisions..

To be continued...

Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers

So far I am just nodding my head in agreement - very cogent articles

Recipients and Publicity has left a new comment on your post "Kiruv - The end of kiruv as we know it!":

GRASPING THE CHANGE IN THE KIRUV PARADIGM.

It would NOT be an exaggeration to say that all Orthodox kiruv rabbis and workers deal with either students who are either the children of intermarriages or who are themselves intermarried, perhaps multiple times.

In a way there was a paradox that for about thirty years, from the 1950s through the 1980s, while society was in turmoil, that the turmoil of the world was itself a cause for the rise of the revolutionary Baal Teshuva Movement when tens of thousands of mostly young Jews from all walks of life began the trek back to Orthodox life and abandoning their secular/Reform/Conservative/

traditionalist roots, and to their parents' dismay openly followed Haredi and Hasidic rabbis with long beards much like others around followed gurus and swamis. But they were MOSTLY Jewish kids with a Jewish mother AND a Jewish father.

But the last 25 years have been different, from the 1980s until the present the numbers of Halachic non-Jewish who thought they were Jews, with most not understanding the ins and outs of the Halachic points, started to be part of all outreach programs and it could not be avoided.

Anyone who reads the statistics of intermarriage knows that outside of the Orthodox world intermarriage now stands at about 90% and it is a miracle if one Jew marries another Jew, whereas 25 years ago the official intermarriage rate was "52%" (what is "2%" in terms of numbers here?, I am not sure).

While the local rabbis and busy kiruv workers know this from reality now, that they must deal with intertwined issues of kiriv and geurus (outreach and conversion) the "higher ups" have developed "grand strategies" of sorts, and that is why the example of Rabbi Leib Tropper is so fascinating, and what he is doing is not unique to him.

Rabbi Tropper is a purist who wants only the highest standards of Yidishkeit. He started out in kiruv as Rebbe in the original Ohr Somayach in Israel when it had the purist (and some would say simplistic goal) of turning intellectual Baalei Teshuva into regular yeshivishe lamdonim, but Ohr Somaych split four, perhaps ven five, ways over this issue:

1) Rabbis Nota Schiller and Mendel Weinbach moderated the original fervor and opted for a slower yet serious pace for the curriculum (remember, Baal Teshuva yeshivas were a new invention at that time).

2) Rabbi Noach Weinberg (the original founder of Ohr Somayach) set out to establish the Aish HaTorah that was not based on Ohr Somayach's intensity, easing up on the atmosphere, and as can be seen on Halachic standards when it comes to having non-Jews in their programs online and off.

3) Rabbi Leib Tropper went in the other direction, feeling that both Ohr Somaych and Aish HaTorah had lost sight of their main mandate of basing everying ONLY on intense Gemora learning and rapid paced transformation to being a Ben Torah (not a bad goal but not as attractive to the nasses as Aish HaTorah's appeal, as is evident.)

4) Rabbi Rosenberg broke from Ohr Somayach and founded Machon Shlomo as an elitist Baal teshuva yeshiva.

5) Ohr Somyach franchised out its name and in turn branched out to Canada, South Africa, the USA where its Monsey NY namesake became a broad-based institution encourging gradautes to mostly go to work as do most yeshivas in America but not like Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva also in Monsey that stresses only the learning element, even though it does have an outrecah "Horizons" program.

There were and are other yeshivas but while in the past almost all students came from Halachically Jewish mothers, matters are now much cloudier and its harder to know which boys will turn out to be non-Halachic Jews. The same goes for girls' kiruv programs.

Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER and maybe even walking away from it, he tries to to finesse it (Dr. Tom Kaplan has lots of money and what else is there to do for a living if not helping millionares find solutions to their intermarried problems?), and that is why he was slapped by the BADATS who then sent out letters of warning to all those Recipients and asking for Publicity that Rabbi Tropper's agenda and methods were not part of the solution but were more part of the problem.

Ditto for Chabd out there in the field and ditto for Aish HaTorah and even Ohr Somaych who, like Nero fiddle while "Rome" burns, in the name of "saving" the Jewish people, when they are undermining them instead with the hanky panky, not-so-secret welcoming of non-Jews into the arms of Yiddishkeit and then think that that they are doing a great Mitzva. Tricky stuff indeed.

To be continued...

"Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz

I am making this a post for two reason 1) I am really impressed with Recipients and Publicity's combination of solid knowledge with his leaps of fantasy which sometimes are on target but of late are really off. 2) It is an interesting fantasy which shows an outsiders' view - you just don't realize how inefficient and confused Chareidi Jewish organizations are.

To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.

Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.

I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================

Recipients and Publicity responds:

Rabbi Eidensohn says: "Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney."

Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)

Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?

So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.

And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:

a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.

b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.

c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.

d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.

e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.

f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.

g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.

h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.

i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)

j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."

So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.

As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."

Recipients and Publicity - questions the integrity of the Syrian community as well as my own

Recipients and Publicity said...

Dear Rabbi Eidensohn:

You state: "I am merely responding to your accusation that for a community to ban conversion and converts because of the widespread failure to be able to discern sincere candidates is anti-halacha and against the hashkofa that we were sent into exile to gather gerim."

Indeed I stand by my assertions and I still cannot fathom how you cite these mekoros that you do as being potentially applicable "bechol asar ve'asar" meaning in any place anywhere which is just NOT something you can derive from the sources you cite. Do you reallly think that what the Syrian rabbis did in the 20th century has any real connection to the lomdus, hashkofa and halacha in the sources you cite? Not at all. They took a look at was happening around them and screamed bloody murder at the mutiny of their flock who were "voting out of the faith" by marrying non-Jewish women and they decided to take a radical step. Did they go around and ask every last Godol on Earth at the time, including all the Sefardishe poskim, if what they proposed to do was in keeping with millenia old Yiddishkeit? And I tender to you that they did not, they panicked, put up this notorious Takana, and then found a few opinions here and there that sort of back them up. Did Rav Kook or Frank institute any such similar things for the Kehillas and Talmidim they led in Europe or in Eretz Yisroel in spite of what they wrote and allegedly "meant" to the far-away Syrians in Argentina? Decidedly no! Why, because they understood and knew full well that it is unheard of to institute such measures.

By all means pasul the geirus of others, like Satmar that does not accept the rulings of most other Batei Din, not in geirus not in gittin and not in kashrus, that is within Halachah, that one tzad is not mechuyav to be mekabel yenem's piskei di as long as they have what to be somech on, but to stand up and say you are issuing a blanket Takana "AS IF" you were now Rabbeinu Gershom, is utterly preposterous, and that is why you will not find either Rav Frank or Rav Kook or any gadol doing such things for their own people. And that is why I say what the Syrians did is anti-Halachik because it goes against the norm.

In fact none of the Syrian rabbis who signed the Takana can be deemed to be what we would today call a "gadol" in the fullest sense of the word so why do we have to accept or be machshiv what they said when it goes keneged hasechel and keneged Torah peshutah?

Then you say: "I don't understand how you would extrapolate from these sources that I am advocating a universal ban. I am just defending the right of the rabbonim of a particular community to institute such a ban."

Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.

It is all fine and good that you hold by Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ, terrific, it's a huge madreigah, but you cannot expect every last Charedi and Orthodox Jew to accept such a supremely high and almost impossible madreigah too. And you seem to be using this whole Syrian Takana ma'aseh, that no-one in the Torah world is even goires, because very few people have respect for what the Syrian Jewish community has achieved in terms of Torah true Judaism, they are more famous in Brooklyn for their "heterim" to ride bicycles on Shabbos down Ocean Parkway, skinny ladies wearing pants jogginbg down Ocean Parkway, building huge mansions, vacationing in Deal and on the Jersey coast as if they were on the French Riviera, and spending tons of money on lavish luxuries and outlandish Bar and Bat mitzvas and playing wink-and-look-away games with their rabbis than taking grandiose Takanas not to marry shiksa seriously.

Other groups also have corruption, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Among other groups, like Chasidim and Yeshiva-leit there are also problems but of a different nature and scale. The takanos so far in recent times are pretty lame, the rabbonim made some takanos about not going to concerts but that does not come to not accepting geirim.

No doubt there are kanoim lurking everywhere waiting to strike and in good time we will hear about attempts to disallow ALL genuine geirei tzedek from becoming geirim, but this is a big jump, and there is a wide chasm between modern Syrians in their personal SUVs and sportscars for everyone in the family with Haredim packed one family into two rooms in Meah Shearim, for now...

There are better ways to fight assimilation than Takanos and gezeiros. Think Ahavas Yisroel, Chinuch, Kiruv, Yeshivas, Bais Yaakovs, day schools, shulls, youth movements.

But the Syrians are really still not ready to hear this.

Do you known that in the Sefardic bikkur cholim in Brooklyn dominated by the SYs that they know that they need social workers but they have set up a cocamamy system that a social worker must be tagged by a communuty worker so that no community secrets leak out. Have you ever heard of such things? You are a psychologist, would you accept that every patient you see MUST be co-handled by a member of the Kehila they come from and that you would have to share all session notes, consultations with colleagues, everything, with some community appointed watchdog less-than-a-rebbetzin? Well that is the way the Syrians function, they want "Orthodoxy" but on their own terms, and what they get is just hypocrisy and a huge mess that they then try to stop with silly "takanos" that only makes them into the laughingstock of the Torah world, like little Mike needs a monitor to keep him in check, and it gets them absolutely nowhere and it is surprisng that you are willing to defend such shtus and to even go digging up mekoros for them and shtel them tzu like arbes tzum vant.

Maybe that is why Jersey Girl has a chip on her shoulder against Aish HaTorah, Chabad, and other Kiruv operations and why you harp on and on about the "Lakewood Ger fiasco" (and it was a fiasco, I agree with you) because it's just a way of laying the groundwork for a total ban against all converts which Rav Shternbuch or the BADATZ may have in the offing but which will only isolate them further and thrust them into looking no better than the Neturei Karta anti-Zionists who have turned logic and Yidishkeit upside down in order to "save it from itself."

If you want to see where opposing something to the extreme can lead, just take a look at the nut jobs who travelled to Tehran and were even willing to deny the Holocaust just to make the point that they are against Zionism. Not that I am comaparing Zionism to geirus, but one needs to watch out for the danger of falling down a slippery slope of being "protesteth too much" when just a little moderation, even for those proposing extreme views, is in order, both humanly and Halachically.

May 2, 2008 3:34 PM

Daas Torah said...

Recipients and Publicity said...
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.

------------------
Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney.

As I have stated a number of time I have no problem with changes and varying standards which reflect the needs of the times. I do demand that the halachic rulings be presented in a cogent manner with the sources clearly explained as well as proof of who is poskening.

Thus I have no problem with a community such as the Syrian banning gerim they deem as insincere. I have no problem with Rabbi Tropper accepting intermarried couples - if he can show a written letter from Rav Eliashiv or some other gadol that clearly supports such action and why. I also would like some clear evidence that what ever rulings are followed actually improve the situation.

Your own creative interpretations and story telling about what happened and why - simply doesn't qualify as serious halachic discourse. Your conjecture about a wide variety of topics doesn't constitute objective facts

Why don't you come back down to earth. Your intelligence can be put to better use in helping clarifying the issues rather than villifying others.

Response to AmicusEJF's criticisms of my blog and defense of EJF

AmicusEJF wrote:

”… I disagree with your decision to allow the carmella corleone post. I was also very disappointed with your decision to post that negative piece on Dr. Kaplan. I was very turned off from that and you may have noticed that I have barely commented since then. I believe that once you allow such supermarket tabloid style discussion, you have lowered the level of the blog to where many Jewish blogs are: in the gutter.”

I am sorry that the comments on this blog offend you. As I have alluded to before – there are basically two types of posting – one which records facts or opinions which purport to describe reality. As you yourself note this is an accurate description of most of what is posted on this blog. On the other hand there are postings here which convey the emotional reality or visceral substrate. I think that this has to be sampled also – though in only in limited quantities. This point is relevant to your subsequent comments.

You say: Why does EJF rely on anonymous spokesmen? ... In other words are these individuals actual spokesmen who are in fact representing Rabbi Tropper - but he doesn't want their identity revealed?

Speaking for myself, while I am a friend of EJF, and a volunteer who tries to help out with some things, R' Tropper has not sent me as a spokesman. Quite the opposite, he has questioned the usefulness of commenting on blogs and trying to correct errors and misimpressions on a blog. Since I have followed your [R' Eidensohn's] work over some years [Yad Moshe, Yad Yisroel, Daas Torah, many Avodah forum postings], I have a great respect for you. I thought that, even though this is a blog, it is different: It is R' Eidensohn's blog. It may be a house in a slummy neighborhood, but it is a talmid chacham's house. But then I saw that long innuendo-filled post against Dr. Kaplan, and I said to myself: Maybe, R' Tropper was right. And as I type these words in the "Leave your comment" box just to the left of carmella corleone's miasmic jeers, I don't know if I will comment here too much longer. And that is a shame, because I think there is value in answering sincere questions about EJF and in learning from valid criticisms.

While you seem to debate by the Marquis of Queensbury’s rules – Rabbi Tropper does not. While you speak in righteous indignation about the mud being slung at Rabbi Tropper and company – you don’t seem to be bothered by the mud he slings. Your defensive reading of his slur against me regarding my citation of the Abarbanel in my sefer Daas Torah – was a creative reading – but patently missed the point. I also sent you a copy of the correspondence I had with him. It was surely cut of the same cloth as those posts you found offensive when directed at Eternal Jewish Family. Yet you haven’t expressed any concern about them. You might also note in the correspondence that I informed Rabbi Tropper that he had written an inappropriate letter to Rav Sternbuch. He said he would send an apology. Last time I checked Rav Sternbuch had not received it. Perhaps you might remind him. Or are you saying that slinging mud is permitted in emails but not on blogs?

In sum – Rabbi Tropper is a tough political fighter and sometimes the offense he causes can best be dealt with by responses in kind. I personally do not question his motivation and sincerity – but other sincere individuals clearly do.

So let's return, in the meantime, to your post. You write: Or are they self-appointed representatives because Rabbi Tropper doesn't feel the need to explain the true nature of his operations... why doesn't Rabbi Tropper want to clarify and justify what he is doing? Well, clarify and justify to whom? To this blog? As explained above, he questions the utility of that, and with carmella on my screen, I can't say he's wrong. To the Bedatz? There I think you have a good point. If he were seeking the Bedatz's haskomah, then it would be incumbent upon him to clarify and justify his operations to their satisfaction. [I have no idea if that was ever attempted, but judging from what you have written, I would assume not.] On the other hand, if the Bedatz wants to publish an opinion on the EJF, I would suggest that, as part of their derishah and chakira, they or their people would call up talmidei chachamim who are heavily involved with EJF's operations, such as Rav Reuven Feinstein or Rav Shmiel Eliezer Stern of Rav Wosner's Beis Din, to understand what the clarifications and justifications are. This may have happened, I don't know. They may have not been satisfied with these and decided to oppose EJF. That is their prerogative.

I find it rather strange that EJF feels the burden of proof is on those who question them. When a major innovation is introduced into a mesora based society – the obligation is on the innovator to justify it. Why is it only necessary to respectfully communicate when seeking a haskomah? EJF’s widely trumpeted goal is universally accepted conversion.” The Bedatz represents an important group – whether you agree with them or not – whose acceptance or rejection clearly impacts the degree that the slogan “universal acceptance” is true. EJF can’t claim universal standards and then say to any part of the Jewish world - “I don’t have to justify myself to you because I really don’t care what you think – and I don’t care if you accept my conversions.” Universal standards which are only accepted by a part of the Orthodox world – are not universal standards! Isn’t that obvious?

To clarify and justify to the public at large? Well, that's exactly what I am trying to do here unofficially. Officially, they have printed a two-page spread in Hamodia and reprinted it in the Jewish Press. Also, they are working on redoing their website. My hope is that, one day, you should be able to find the clarifications and justifications you seek over there. But that two page spread was important. I suggest that you make a pdf file of it and make it available here.

Why is a public relations campaign in the Jewish Press considered a desirable part of EJF’s public relations – but satisfying the Bedatz’s legitimate concerns is not? If you have a pdf of the ad I would like to see it and maybe would even put it on this blog – but I would like it even more if there was a delegation sent to the Bedatz to calmly discuss what is going on.

You write about: to pursue or activiely persuade someone to convert and spending millions of dollars to persuade the nonJewish spouse to convert.

This is old ground. I have already written that these are moot points since EJF is not the first contact for gerus candidates. EJF deals only with referrals. Call them up and pretend to be a goy wishing to convert. They will send you to a local Rav. It is the local Rav or kiruv worker who must deal with the issues of rebuffing, admitting or pursuing a candidate for gerus. There is a lot to be said on that, but it's all moot as far as EJF's own programs.

This is indeed old ground and unfortunately your answers have not satisfactorily answered these questions. As has been pointed out there is an significant dissonance between what Rabbi Tropper claims he is doing and what other evidence describes.

On that point, I must add that although you write I was also given the astonishing response of "Why is it prohibited", you wrote above that you agreed that there was no prohibition!

Here it is:

In a recent intensive exchange of e-mails, I asked Rav Tropper the halachic rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein he claims as the basis for EJF’s activities. His response was, “Why do you think it is prohibited?” This is an astounding justification for a radical break with the past. While in fact it is not explicitly prohibited – this radical innovation of spending millions of dollars to convince non‑Jews to convert presents serious dangers to the Jewish people. It requires acceptance or rejection through scholarly discussion in peer-reviewed responsa - as innovations have been justified in the past.

Daniel Eidensohn Ph.D.

Now, I agree with your point that those who reach out to gentiles in intermarriages spouses [not EJF, not EJF] need to explain what seems to be a radical innovation. But you yourself admit that they are not doing away with an explicit prohibition. That is a valid subject for discussion. Is an intermarried gentile better than a stam goy in this respect, or perhaps worse, as I suspect the Bedatz holds. Please call Rav Reuven Feinstein to discuss this [and other matters] with him. Please don't answer that you demand a written teshuvah and until he sends one out, you will not go to him. Please don't let it be a situation of "Hatziree ein biGilad, im rofei ein sham."

I can’t believe a yeshiva educated Orthodox Jew would be making the above statement. Since when are major changes in conversion so lightly justified? I cited Rav Chaim Ozer and Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Menashe Klein strongly disapproving of this procedure – even though there is no explicit issur. Similarly there are other poskim such as the Tzitz Eliezar who object to it. Again your insistence that EJF is not proselytizing is belied by the material I have collected on my blog as well as the interview Rabbi Tropper gave to Mishpacha magazine. I don’t see that it is appropriate for me to be the intermediate between Rav Reuven Feinstein and the Bedatz. Why can’t Rav Reuven Feinstein – who is the official director of EJF – simply write a response and send it to the Bedatz?

Now, you have an excellent point in that quote in Hebrew Mishpocha. Could you please provide the Hebrew original before I pursue that further? I have covered several points here, directly or indirectly, and I hope that helps you and others understand EJF's stance, at least to the degree that I understand it.

Kol tuv, amicusEJF

I am surprised that you can’t get a copy from Rabbi Tropper. Again I do not find your explanation – and it is just your explanation not that of Rabbi Tropper – satisfactory. If R’ Tropper can’t provide the text I will – bli neder- scan the material.

Friend of EJF unofficially responds. Criticizes "supermarket tabloid style" comments on blog

amicusEJF wrote:


Dear R' Eidensohn, shlita,

If anyone from EJF gives you an orange you can be sure that it will be a healthful fruit, free of any chashash or orlah, tevel or sheviis, and given to you in the respectful spirit of hameivi doron l'talmid chacham.

That said, I disagree with your decision to allow the carmella corleone post. I was also very disappointed with your decision to post that negative piece on Dr. Kaplan. I was very turned off from that and you may have noticed that I have barely commented since then. I believe that once you allow such supermarket tabloid style discussion, you have lowered the level of the blog to where many Jewish blogs are: in the gutter.

You say: Why does EJF rely on anonymous spokesmen? ... In other words are these individuals actual spokesmen who are in fact representing Rabbi Tropper - but he doesn't want their identity revealed?

Speaking for myself, while I am a friend of EJF, and a volunteer who tries to help out with some things, R' Tropper has not sent me as a spokesman. Quite the opposite, he has questioned the usefulness of commenting on blogs and trying to correct errors and misimpressions on a blog. Since I have followed your [R' Eidensohn's] work over some years [Yad Moshe, Yad Yisroel, Daas Torah, many Avodah forum postings], I have a great respect for you. I thought that, even though this is a blog, it is different: It is R' Eidensohn's blog. It may be a house in a slummy neighborhood, but it is a talmid chacham's house.

But then I saw that long innuendo-filled post against Dr. Kaplan, and I said to myself: Maybe, R' Tropper was right. And as I type these words in the "Leave your comment" box just to the left of carmella corleone's miasmic jeers, I don't know if I will comment here too much longer. And that is a shame, because I think there is value in answering sincere questions about EJF and in learning from valid criticisms.

So let's return, in the meantime, to your post. You write: Or are they self-appointed representatives because Rabbi Tropper doesn't feel the need to explain the true nature of his operations... why doesn't Rabbi Tropper want to clarify and justify what he is doing?

Well, clarify and justify to whom? To this blog? As explained above, he questions the utility of that, and with carmella on my screen, I can't say he's wrong.

To the Bedatz? There I think you have a good point. If he were seeking the Bedatz's haskomah, then it would be incumbent upon him to clarify and justify his operations to their satisfaction. [I have no idea if that was ever attempted, but judging from what you have written, I would assume not.] On the other hand, if the Bedatz wants to publish an opinion on the EJF, I would suggest that, as part of their derishah and chakira, they or their people would call up talmidei chachamim who are heavily involved with EJF's operations, such as Rav Reuven Feinstein or Rav Shmiel Eliezer Stern of Rav Wosner's Beis Din, to understand what the clarifications and justifications are. This may have happened, I don't know. They may have not been satisfied with these and decided to oppose EJF. That is their prerogative.

To clarify and justify to the public at large? Well, that's exactly what I am trying to do here unofficially. Officially, they have printed a two-page spread in Hamodia and reprinted it in the Jewish Press. Also, they are working on redoing their website. My hope is that, one day, you should be able to find the clarifications and justifications you seek over there. But that two page spread was important. I suggest that you make a pdf file of it and make it available here.

You write about: to pursue or activiely persuade someone to convert and spending millions of dollars to persuade the nonJewish spouse to convert.

This is old ground. I have already written that these are moot points since EJF is not the first contact for gerus candidates. EJF deals only with referrals. Call them up and pretend to be a goy wishing to convert. They will send you to a local Rav. It is the local Rav or kiruv worker who must deal with the issues of rebuffing, admitting or pursuing a candidate for gerus. There is a lot to be said on that, but it's all moot as far as EJF's own programs.

On that point, I must add that although you write I was also given the astonishing response of "Why is it prohibited", you wrote above that you agreed that there was no prohibition!

Here it is:
In a recent intensive exchange of e-mails, I asked Rav Tropper the halachic rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein he claims as the basis for EJF’s activities. His response was, “Why do you think it is prohibited?” This is an astounding justification for a radical break with the past. While in fact it is not explicitly prohibited – this radical innovation of spending millions of dollars to convince non‑Jews to convert presents serious dangers to the Jewish people. It requires acceptance or rejection through scholarly discussion in peer-reviewed responsa - as innovations have been justified in the past.

Daniel Eidensohn Ph.D.

Now, I agree with your point that those who reach out to gentiles in intermarriages spouses [not EJF, not EJF] need to explain what seems to be a radical innovation. But you yourself admit that they are not doing away with an explicit prohibition. That is a valid subject for discussion. Is an intermarried gentile better than a stam goy in this respect, or perhaps worse, as I suspect the Bedatz holds. Please call Rav Reuven Feinstein to discuss this [and other matters] with him. Please don't answer that you demand a written teshuvah and until he sends one out, you will not go to him. Please don't let it be a situation of "Hatziree ein biGilad, im rofei ein sham."

Now, you have an excellent point in that quote in Hebrew Mishpocha. Could you please provide the Hebrew original before I pursue that further?

I have covered several points here, directly or indirectly, and I hope that helps you and others understand EJF's stance, at least to the degree that I understand it.

Kol tuv,

amicusEJF

Alice in Wonderland and Eternal Jewish Family

Anonymous said...

I ASK URGENTLY THAT DR. EIDENSOHN CLARIFY THESE TWO ISSUES: 1) WHERE RAV STERNBUCH STANDS ON THE SHESHES YEMEI BEREISHIS ISSUE, AND 2) WHAT THE POLICY OF THIS BLOG IS TOWARDS RAV ELYASHIV.

According to the Yated's full description of the November 2007 EJF conference. Rav Eisenstein stated, "If there is a dayan who seems eminently qualified but he has false beliefs concerning the belief in the age of the universe - the great gaon Rav Kanievsky shlita has ruled to us that a dayan such as this can not convert people and those who he has converted are in fact not gerim....One can not be a judge if he is wearing perfume..."

Regarding the issue of the age of the universe, Rav Sternbuch has told me that he holds that a belief in the age being greater than 6000 years is kefirah because the majority of gedolim today hold that it is less than 6000 years old. However the person who holds this belief is not himself a heretic because there are sources in chazal and rishonim who support such a belief. He acknowledged to me that he holds like the Ravad.

If Rav Eliashiv holds that a person who holds such a belief is a heretic - then they apparently disagree. However the Yated says Rav Kanievsky was the authority cited for this psak - not Rav Eliashiv.

I find your second question strange. "What is this blog's policy towards Rav Eliashiv" I don't know what you are asking.

Rav Tropper has not produced any letters written by Rav Eliashiv regarding his attitude towards the activities of Eternal Jewish Family. I have previously translated - and posted on this blog - part of a letter written by Rav Efrati regarding Rav Eliashiv's attitude towards intermarried couples. "Maran's characteristic response to intermarried couples is that they should be shunned" The only exception is where the couple mistakenly view themselves as Jewish and not as intermarried.

The Yated's article quotes Rav Eisenstein saying that Rav Eliashiv has ruled that one should not push away intermarried couples when it is clear to us that there will be complete repentance and observance of mitzvos." Note he didn't say pursue. Nor did he say to invite them to free resort vacations and try to persuade them to convert. There is no mention to support EJF's policy of kiruv as described by Rav Tropper himself in his interview with Mishpacha magazine that I have translated earlier on this blog.

Thus I have seen no written evidence that Rav Eliashiv has been fully informed of the activities of EJF or has approved them. I have heard rumors that he was unhappy about the November 2007 convention - but I don't know why.

Thus until EJF conducts itself with greater transparency and until Rav Eliashiv or Rav Reuven Feinstein write clearly reasoned teshuvos regarding the nature of dealing with intermarried couples - there is not much more that can be said.

It is a bit strange being accused of ignoring the unknown and possibly non-existent rulings of a posek concerning procedures which EJF denies doing. When I asked Rav Sternbuch if he knew what Rav Eliashiv held on these issues he said he could not get a clear answer.

All that is clear is that there are people who claim they are following the directives of Rav Eliashiv. I have no idea what these directives are. When I asked Rabbi Tropper if EJF had a manual with halachic guidelines and could I see it, he replied that EJF once had a manual but that they had discontinued it about 2 years ago because there were things in it that were not clear.

If your question is whether I highly respect Rav Eliashiv - the answer is an unequivocal yes. If your question is whether the Bedatz needs to accept everything that Rav Eliashiv says - the answer is an unequivocal no. If your question is when people claim to be strictly following the directives of Rav Eliashiv which they refuse to reveal - must their actions be uncritically accepted - the answer is unequivocally no!

A Deeper Look at the current EJF Website and Troubling Issues it Raises:

Recipients and Publicity wrote:

Here we have an organization that has taken upon itself one of the most responsible jobs, geirus, and one would think that in inviting prospective clients (primarily gentiles married to Jews) its website would go beyond mere platitudes and generalities.

With all the tens of millions of dollars already pumped into EJF and its events, one would think that they would have not only a state of the art website up and running but that it would also offer complete transparency of who are the ones selling the goods.

Sure, the logo on top of each page proclaims that EJF is a "[Star of David that is almost an Israeli army-look-alike with the sword and olive leaves in the center] Eternal Jewish Family: THE LILLIAN JEAN KAPLAN JEWISH PRIDE THROUGH EDUCATION PROJECT" but has absolutely no listing of staff or who will be taking care of applicants once they apply on the blank automated fill-in "application" page at http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/application.htm

The only rabbis mentioned are on the expanded "about" page at http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/about.htm Two being deceased (Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l). Three alive, but two, very, very old and living in Israel: Rav Yosef Sholom Eliyashuv (born 1910) and Rav Shmuel Wosner (born 1913), with only a somewhat younger Rav Reuven Feinstein from America named in its history.

So in effect, the two deceased rabbis cannot be cited as "mashgichim" of any sort and the two much older rabbis from Israel cannot be "mashgichim" of what goes on in EJF either. So that leaves Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, who is very close with EJF's sole rabbi, the energized Rabbi Tropper and probably his main rabbinic ally.

So, just going by EJF's own website, there is no real known halachic supervisor (besides the omniscient Rabbi Tropper) to oversee who EJF is taking under its wings and preparing for conversions!

This is alarming because Rabbi Reuven Feinstein has his hands full running his large yeshiva MTJ on Staten Island, in NYC, and he has so many other duties such as attending Agudath Israel of America meetings, being mesader kiddushin at many people's weddings, and attending all sorts of functions. It is hard to imagine that he is personally intervieing each EJF applicant. Indeed, the same applies to Rabbi Tropper. He is a Rosh Yeshiva and he must be at his Yeshiva Kol Yaakov. He gives many guest lectures all over the USA. He has to raise funds (well maybe less now that the Dr. Tom Kaplan is taking this burdern off his shoulders) and it cannot be that he has the time to thoroghly screen each and every potential convert.

Rabbi Tropper may want and wish and think that he is probably at this time *trying* to keep his finger in every applicant's process because the situation is a bit dicy with the BADATZ having come out openly against him and the EJF and all it would take is for one phoney conversion process that EJF helped to blow up in his face and that would in turn blow his whole EJF dream out of the water. No-one said this would be easy.

Anyhow, coming back to the EJF website. Here are some issues to consider (as of February 25th, '08):

*No mention of staff. Even on the "about us" page.

*No mention of who is on the Board of Directors, if indeed there is one.

*No mention of a rabbinical advisory board. In fact not even Rabbi Leib Tropper, the rabbi most behind this effort is mentioned.

*No mention of what type of organization this is. Is it a USA 501 (c) 3 IRS approved not-for-profit charity? Does it take donations from the public? If Madonna the singer who is in with the Kabbalah Center sent EJF or the Lillian Jean Kpalan Foundation a big donation (to help converts, like her maybe, as she took on the Jewish name of "Esther") would anyone know if it was either accepted or, more hopefully, rejected? In fact who donates to EJF and keeps it going? Is it a different kind of private foundation? Is it an ancillary of the "Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation" or what is its legal status *exactly* in the USA so that its records and files can be examined such as all such entities are according to USA, FOI (Freedom Of Information) rules allow.

*A link to "horizons.edu" which in turn links to a dead link for Yeshiva Kol Yaakov (what does that mean, that there is "nothing" at the center of all this, or that the center does not wish to be linked to its misbegotten step-child?) but on the horizons.edu link there is no real information about that organization either, just platitudes about how great Rabbi Tropper is (self-praise is no recommendation, the saying goes) and links to past Kol Yaakov Yeshiva newsletters with more articles by Rabbi Tropper and notes from grateful students, and oh yes, Kol Yaakov will be opening a branch in Yerushalayim soon and, naturally, Rabbi Tropper will be the Rosh Yeshiva (he wears many hats) and he will be making frequent trans-continental hops back and forth. So again, when does he have time to run EJF and screen the many candidates for conversion? (And note again, that the link to the heart of Rabbi Tropper's world, the Kol Yaakov Yeshiva, does not work and says nothing.)

*On the horizons.edu page "ask the rabbi" page, there is just a seforim shrank picture http://www.horizons.edu/askrabbi.htm (typical, does that mean that one will commune with those deceased rabbis inside the seforim to get an answer?) and on the "lectures" page http://www.horizons.edu/lectures.htm there is a photo of Rabbi Tropper but not his name, it says: "Coming Soon" -- hopefully it will not be "the second coming" either!

*The "Batei Din List" is perhaps the most troubling page of all http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/bateidinlist.htm as looking at the whole page one sees: First the "[Star of David that is almost an Israeli army-look-alike with the sword and olive leaves in the center] Eternal Jewish Family: THE LILLIAN JEAN KAPLAN JEWISH PRIDE THROUGH EDUCATION PROJECT" and then "EJF Approved Batei Din - List of EJF Approved Batei Din" and it states that: "The following batei din are known to EJF to be using universally accepted standards.
We would like to note that EJF does not perform conversions but works with existing batei din that are operating with the standards that have been handed to us by Gedolei Torah"

Fine mumbo-jumbo, and how would a prospective convert who knows very little about Yiddishkeit have any context to make sense of such a statement, like "they do, but they don't"! Very confusing and confused, and no doubt deliberately so. BUT at no point on the website is anyone told WHO exactly did, and does, the ongoing checking of the Batei Din and "approving" their standards. Who in fact is the "Executive Director" in the EJF office that does the work and who helps him get his job done. Is there no staff or is it a mix of EJF/Horizons/Kol Yaakov Yeshiva"/Rabbi Tropper's study&home&cell? Who are his assitants, and hopefully EJF is run by a "he", because a "she" has no ne'emanus in a beis din, sorry it's just a rule of halacha that beis din has to follow.

The list is impressive and as of Feb 25, '08 there are 14 of them one being in Israel and one in Canada. So 12 are in the USA. But who and when and where the "hechsherim" given to these batei din? Does EJF issue a written "seal of approval" that a prospective convert must and should obtain upon request a copy of from these batei din? And indeed, do Batei Din need "hechsherim" from another source especially one like EJF that is NOT a beis din itself, not a Jewishly or Halachically recognized religious body or council of any sort, that does not even state who its rabbis are, besides Rabbi Tropper, and those it deems to approve of its founding, the two late deceased rabbis, two very old ones in Israel and one American Rosh Yeshiva.

This is deception and geneivas da'as of the highest order.

What is this? Leitzonus and an insult to intelligence? An organization has the chutzpah to "evaluate" and "judge" and publicise batei din and does not say which rabbis it has on staff who have done this and who anyone can talk to (besides Rabbi Tropper of course).

Dumbfounding and one wonders why the listed batei din are going along with this, and hopefully it's not because they want donations from Tom Kaplan because that would be shochad...and it is hard to stop thinking when the EJF does not spell out who it uses and who it has on call, not just in Rabbi Tropper's rolodex, but objective outside Rabbonim, and EJF can trumpet is that rivers of money are flowing from the coffers of the "Lillian Jean Kaplan" Foundation to EJF which then sets itself up as the "supreme council" of which batei din are good or not. To repeat, this is chutzpah in motion!

Here is the complete list of batie din on the EJF website:

Name, Rabbi and Telephone number:

*Beis Din of Yerushalayim: Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein 011-972-225-322047

*Beis Din of Monsey: Rabbi Pinchus Rabinowitz 845-425-1315

*Beis Din of Philadelphia: Rabbi Aharon Felder 215-745-2968

*Beis Din Merkaz HaRabbanim: Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik 312-543-3945

*Beis Din of Cleveland: Rabbi Yisroel Grumer 216-321-5002

*Beis Din of New York: Rabbi Yisroel Dov Webster 718-236-9244

*Beis Din of RCC- Los Angeles: Rabbi Avraham Union 213-389-3382 ext 13

*Beis Din of Milwaukee: Rabbi Mendel Senderovic 414-234-8635

*Beis Din of Montreal, Canada: Rabbi Yonoson Binyomin Weiss 514-739-6363

*Beis Din of Miami: Rabbi Mendel Senderovic 414-234-8635 (Rabbi Senderovic is also listed above for Beis Din of Milwaukee. Is he an itinerant dayan?)

*Beis Din of Lakewood: Rabbi Dov Kahan 732-905-59220

*Beis Din of Dallas: Rabbi Yerachmiel Fried 214-987-3282

*Beis Din of Houston: Rabbi Yehoshua Wender 713-729-8870

*Beis Din of Cincinnati: Rabbi Zelig Scharfstein 513-731-4671

A quick look at these batei din will show that some are very new and function under the auspices of Litvishe yeshivishe rabbis mosly from "out-of-town" (i.e. outside of the main centers of Torah life) in communities tied to out-of-town rabbis and kollelim involved or tied in with kiruv rechokim. It even looks like it's a system of "kiruv-related batei din" designed to help the spouses and or partners of people who are getting into Yiddishkeit through kiruv programs to obtain conversions for their non-Jewish spouses/partners.

This is all very worrying, especially since the EJF website has said that in combination with Rabbi Tropper's "Horizons" outreach efforts, EJF will function as a kiruv/conversion effort and it sure looks as if Rabbi Tropper and EJF have lined up a series of Batei Din (except for Rabbi Eisenstein's in Eretz Yisroel -- a more complex effort -- that should not have gotten involved with EJF and will hopefully still break its ties with EJF now that the BADATZ has come out against the EJF) that will work with EJF's and Rabbi Tropper's goals of "kiruv and geirus" now set to march in "lock-step" and being a very radical departure from classical kiruv and from the autinimous of batei din, theta are now sold and depicted as "single-issue" batei din, in effect a "conglomorate geirus factory with local sub-divions" instead of the classical approach of allowing potential geirim to FIND THEIR OWN WAY without outside help from EJF or anyone to deal with each case on its merits and NOT as part of a greater and broader strategic scheme to help non-Jews get converted for their Jewish spouses and partners in kiruv programs. The Halacha has always been to ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE geirim, that is the din, and to allow the DIVINE Hashgocha to take its own route and that if it is bashert for a goy to become a ger tzedek then leave it to H-shen to show the way, so that there is no need for active organizations in this field that are mimicking the Reform policy of welcoming all and sundry non-Jews as a "solution" to assimilation, intermarriage or any other population challenge or self-inflicted human tragedies.

No wonder Rabbi Tropper and the EJF website is not saying who the active rabbinical board (if there even is one) is and who is giving them *their* hechsher now. But one thing we do know now, they do NOT have the hechsher of the BADATZ but to the contrary the BADATZ has pasulled (negated) them and has called upon any rabbis who assiciate with EJF to wihdraw from them.

Hopefully the BADATZ has also sent its letter asking rabbis to withdraw to the 14 honorable batei din and its rabbis listed by EJF on its website list and hopefully too the rabbonim and dayonim on that list will respect the BADATZ as much as, hopefully more than, they respect the secular-funded and mysteriously run EJF with its meaningless endorsements of batei din yet.

To allow a non-Halachic organization, in the sense that it itself says that it does not do coversions and it's just a "project" of the "Lillian Jean Kaplan} Foundation, to not just give mere opinions but to actually "approve" and sit in judgment as a de facto "ubber-beis din" of other batei din, is a perilous and dangerous situation for any Torah-studying, Halacha-observant, beis din-respecting Jew!