Wow, I didn't know that criticizing Soros and the activities of his Open Society is somehow "antisemitic." Unfortunately, they failed to explain how that is. And the fact that anti-immigrant groups in Europe ALSO hate Soros and use antisemitic slogans when they attack him for their agenda (As fascists do against any Jew), it does not exonerate Soros or the various causes he funds, and it is completely irrelevant to actual criticism made by other people. Oh well, keep preaching those CNN slogans
It's the only Jewish thing about Soros - his chutzpah. He openly admits he feels nothing about being Jewish, spends his energy and money to destroy Israel but if you criticize him, you're an anti-Semite!
No you can criticize him but you can't make up nonsense like he was a nazi collaborator and his goal is to destroy the us and Israel etc etc. If you want to write a post about his supporting Palestinian and BLACK CAUSES and that he is not a supporter of Israel or yeshivos or Jewish causes or Republican candidates and he probably doesn't subscribe to Yated or believe in Daas Torah and also does not watch Fox News
Soros described her, as acting to subvert American support for Israel, and promoting Palestinian interests. Of course, in a secular setting that is perfectly legal, but look at how he went about it. And how, under halacha, he is most likely rodeif b'Yisrael.
Really so you claim it it is permitted to kill him?! Also1i assume you include Satmehr n your labelling? Anyone who doesn't suppoet 24hour Torahlearning is alsoa rodef according to you as well as anyone who does a chillul HaShem It seems you are looking forward to a world wide holocaust to get rid of mankind?!
According to your reasoning and that of Rav Henkin -claiming publicly that Soros the Jew is trying to destroy the Us and Israel - since it encourages antisemitism would make you a rodef!
Also, you are totally misrepresenting what Rav Henkin ztl said. The famous paragraph is:
"Now all the rabbis who were opposed to Zionism and the establishment of a state took up that position until the time that it was officially founded. Once the state was declared, anyone who plays into the hands of the nations of the world even where there is no imminent danger, is clearly a moseir and rodeif. All the more when there is danger to destruction of life in so doing... Surely, those who recently emigrated must be very weary of the state's efforts to strip them of their Torah way of life, but to proclaim that anyone who aids the state is a rodeif, well such talk is the severest form of redifa"
So once the state has been founded, then working with foreign nations to undermine Israel, is mesira and redifa. That's what the Gadol hador said. Pointing out that someone is doing this does not make me the rodef. Are you also Chas v shalom accusing rav Henkin of the same?
Sorry You are not a posek to decide whether the comments of Rav Henkin apply to anything. it is not clear from this letter whether he was poskening or simply voicing displeasure with Satmehr. He was not the gadol hador - his views on Civil marriage was not accepted - so unless you are saying he is Daas Torah and therefore all must accept anything he ever said
So soros is gadol hador? he is gadol in money, but that's all. in America, there were 3 or 4 gedolei hador _ rav Aharon, rav Henkin, and rav Moshe. Rav Yaakov was in parallel with rmf. And rav soloveitchik was considered by some to be the greatest Gadol b Torah. but all this is a red herring. You see no problem in perverting what he said to use against me, but when I try to clarify his statement you dismiss him altogether.
Just need to clarify what we disagree on? Rav Henkin's status as gadol hador? Strength of his statement? Use of term rodef in general? Expressing outrage towards someone who is a rasha? Or are we only allowed to call Israeli chilonim rashaim?
You find one statement in a non halachic letter by someone who was at onetime was viewed as the major posek of America. You use that statement as a psak- even though it was not written regarding your situation - no one knows if he would agree with your use Obviously you can not produce other poskim who saw his statement or produced similar statements.
Thus you take on yourself the right to use it and claim it is a general principle. The right to label people you feel are harming Israel or Jews as Rodef is very problematic. Find other examples e.g. did Rav Soleitchik, Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe or Rav Kook say such? Since your conclusion is clearly not widely held that means it is not acceptable practice
OK thanks for your clarification. Here is discussed rodef in a few contexts, but obviously not the same as ours. Chazon ish is cited https://dinonline.org/2011/07/23/the-deadly-pursuer-2-killing-one-for-saving-many/
From 60 minutes interview: Kroft: "My understanding is that you went out with this protector of yours who swore that you were his adopted godson." Soros: "Yes. Yes." Kroft: "Went out, in fact, and helped in the confiscation of property from the Jews" Soros: "That's right."
Wow, I didn't know that criticizing Soros and the activities of his Open Society is somehow "antisemitic." Unfortunately, they failed to explain how that is.
ReplyDeleteAnd the fact that anti-immigrant groups in Europe ALSO hate Soros and use antisemitic slogans when they attack him for their agenda (As fascists do against any Jew), it does not exonerate Soros or the various causes he funds, and it is completely irrelevant to actual criticism made by other people. Oh well, keep preaching those CNN slogans
It's the only Jewish thing about Soros - his chutzpah. He openly admits he feels nothing about being Jewish, spends his energy and money to destroy Israel but if you criticize him, you're an anti-Semite!
ReplyDeleteNo you can criticize him but you can't make up nonsense like he was a nazi collaborator and his goal is to destroy the us and Israel etc etc.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to write a post about his supporting Palestinian and BLACK CAUSES and that he is not a supporter of Israel or yeshivos or Jewish causes or Republican candidates and he probably doesn't subscribe to Yated or believe in Daas Torah and also does not watch Fox News
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2016-08-16/how-george-soros-threatens-to-make-israel-a-pariah
ReplyDeleteSoros described her, as acting to subvert American support for Israel, and promoting Palestinian interests. Of course, in a secular setting that is perfectly legal, but look at how he went about it. And how, under halacha, he is most likely rodeif b'Yisrael.
Really so you claim it it is permitted to kill him?!
ReplyDeleteAlso1i assume you include Satmehr n your labelling?
Anyone who doesn't suppoet 24hour Torahlearning is alsoa rodef according to you as well as anyone who does a chillul HaShem
It seems you are looking forward to a world wide holocaust to get rid of mankind?!
Rav Henkin already made such a statement. And he was not talking about soros.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is permitted to speak loshon hara about him. Israel is in military conflict with those he supports.
Source?
ReplyDeleteAccording to your reasoning and that of Rav Henkin -claiming publicly that Soros the Jew is trying to destroy the Us and Israel - since it encourages antisemitism would make you a rodef!
ReplyDeleteSo according to your claim. That I'm the rodef, guess what?
ReplyDeleteAlso, you are totally misrepresenting what Rav Henkin ztl said. The famous paragraph is:
ReplyDelete"Now all the rabbis who were opposed to Zionism and the establishment of a state took up that position until the time that it was officially founded. Once the state was declared, anyone who plays into the hands of the nations of the world even where there is no imminent danger, is clearly a moseir and rodeif. All the more when there is danger to destruction of life in so doing... Surely, those who recently emigrated must be very weary of the state's efforts to strip them of their Torah way of life, but to proclaim that anyone who aids the state is a rodeif, well such talk is the severest form of redifa"
So once the state has been founded, then working with foreign nations to undermine Israel, is mesira and redifa.
That's what the Gadol hador said. Pointing out that someone is doing this does not make me the rodef. Are you also Chas v shalom accusing rav Henkin of the same?
Sorry You are not a posek to decide whether the comments of Rav Henkin apply to anything. it is not clear from this letter whether he was poskening or simply voicing displeasure with Satmehr. He was not the gadol hador - his views on Civil marriage was not accepted - so unless you are saying he is Daas Torah and therefore all must accept anything he ever said
ReplyDeleteSo soros is gadol hador?
ReplyDeletehe is gadol in money, but that's all.
in America, there were 3 or 4 gedolei hador _ rav Aharon, rav Henkin, and rav Moshe. Rav Yaakov was in parallel with rmf. And rav soloveitchik was considered by some to be the greatest Gadol b Torah.
but all this is a red herring. You see no problem in perverting what he said to use against me, but when I try to clarify his statement you dismiss him altogether.
nonsense!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ytcte.org/shiurim/rav-yosef-eliyahu-henkin-ztl-the-orginal-mara-dasra-of-america/
ReplyDeleteDon't see any chidush - so what is your point
ReplyDeleteJust need to clarify what we disagree on?
ReplyDeleteRav Henkin's status as gadol hador?
Strength of his statement?
Use of term rodef in general?
Expressing outrage towards someone who is a rasha? Or are we only allowed to call Israeli chilonim rashaim?
You find one statement in a non halachic letter by someone who was at onetime was viewed as the major posek of America.
ReplyDeleteYou use that statement as a psak- even though it was not written regarding your situation - no one knows if he would agree with your use
Obviously you can not produce other poskim who saw his statement or produced similar statements.
Thus you take on yourself the right to use it and claim it is a general principle. The right to label people you feel are harming Israel or Jews as Rodef is very problematic.
Find other examples e.g. did Rav Soleitchik, Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe or Rav Kook say such? Since your conclusion is clearly not widely held that means it is not acceptable practice
OK thanks for your clarification.
ReplyDeleteHere is discussed rodef in a few contexts, but obviously not the same as ours. Chazon ish is cited
https://dinonline.org/2011/07/23/the-deadly-pursuer-2-killing-one-for-saving-many/
Don't see how this is relevant?!
ReplyDeleteFrom 60 minutes interview:
ReplyDeleteKroft: "My understanding is that you went out with this protector of yours who swore that you were his adopted godson."
Soros: "Yes. Yes."
Kroft: "Went out, in fact, and helped in the confiscation of property from the Jews"
Soros: "That's right."
It's not directly related, best I can do at the moment
ReplyDelete