When an issue repeatedly comes up in a very short time span that usually indicates it is very serious
I am dealing with couples who one had a loving relationship which has turned to raw hatred.
The issue is that the wife views their children as exclusively hers and insists on eradicating any and all relationship between the father and children. Thus he deserves no respect or love because she is the real parent he is only the sperm donor. the real problem is this view is held so strongly and deeply it is totally immune to psychological legal or halachic arguments. Whatever contact the wife allows is viewed by her as proof that she is a tzadekes. Totally destroying the well being of the children and ex husband
So question: how did it get there? One would presume that when the couple married, she didn't see things this way. What changed?
ReplyDeleteI think it is partially cultural. A lot of American men seek out wives from other countries and cultures to sidestep this issue.
ReplyDeleteit seems that the mere fact of having children is the main factor. Wife devotes herself to her children while husband is jealous of his own children who are shown much more attention and affection -. wife becomes very possessive of children. Husband realizes he is superfluous wife is vastly more interested in pleasing the children. Husband might even find another woman who acts as if he matters. This increases the downward spiral of their relationship
ReplyDeleteHow is the husband superfluous? If we continue with this scenario, one must also assume he's the primary income in the family. All that mother is able to accomplish is through funds provided by the father.
ReplyDeleteHow is the issue of feminism sidestepped by having a wife from other country or another culture?
ReplyDeletethe wife perceives him as superfluous - she is assuming she has the absolute right to be supported by her husband independent of how she treats him
ReplyDeleteIn some cultures women are,raised to respect and obey their husbands.
ReplyDeleteIt has to do in some cases with the concept of "relationships".
ReplyDeleteA "relationship" is where a woman enters into a marriage-like existence with a man, with the understanding from the get-go that it will lead to a break-up. Previously, she would be called a "girlfriend."
Sometimes a woman in a relationship will want children. In the Orthodox Jewish community it is considered in slightly bad taste to have children outside of a marriage. So an Orthodox Jewish woman in a relationship who wants children will marry in order to have children in wedlock.
Once the childbearing part of the marriage is over, the woman will terminate the marriage which really was just a relationship with a Kesuba.
A Jewish woman who has a series of relationships before her marriage can have a messed up mind. That is because she had sexual relations with a number of Jewish and non-Jewish men involving some of the most severe transgressions of the Torah. The veteran of such relationships generally hasn't repented those sins (unless you count the Yom Kippur of the day of the wedding as repentance -- but even then that only takes care of the way she dumped or mistreated men if she asks their forgiveness), which wreaks havoc with her soul and in turn with her personality.
She becomes watooc. ("Watooc" -- pronounced wah-tuke -- is an acronynm: wild and totally out of control.)
Hence, no way to break through to her.
Presumably, once upon a time, the woman in the OP also respected and obeyed her husband, until something happened that soured their relationship.
ReplyDeleteFinally discussing real issues here again.
ReplyDeleteHow did the loving relationship turn to real hatred?
And which came first here, the chicken or the egg? Was the belief that the children are exclusively hers something that materialized after (and likely *because of*) the hatred that developed, or was this a pre-existing belief that somewhere, somehow became inculcated?
If it was pre-existing, where in the world did it come from?
And if it was not pre-existing, wouldn't the problem here be more about the metamorphosis of the relationship (and others like it) rather than the side effects that ensue, which include crazy beliefs?
To clarify, I meant "more of an issue" from a societal point of view.
ReplyDeletewell, maybe American and Western culture is so corrupt morally, that this is inevitable
ReplyDeleteI'd also want to know how the man treated her and the children. Is he involved with them? Does he spend time with them?
ReplyDeleteMany hard-working men come up, put their feet up and announce "Silence! Don't disturb me! I've worked hard all day. Just put dinner in front of me and leave me alone!"
And the wife? She's there for food and sex. Hardly an honourable position.
this is similar except the man is there for food money and sex
ReplyDeleteIt’s inevitable that their relationship will sour?
ReplyDeleteI don't know what you're talking about.
The vast majority of the Torah observant people I know; have had lifelong marriages.
no it is not inevitable but it is a clearly existing problem that is very difficult to deal with - just noting
ReplyDeleteno it is not the majority of marriages
Thank you for agreeing with me that this is not the inevitable outcome of the majority of Orthodox Jewish marriages.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I was thinking about a different aspect of the discussion that Joe Orlow brought, further down this page, about certain types of "relationships" - it is incorrect of me to to make a sweeping generalisation.
ReplyDeleteAre we dealing with a woman who might have post partum depression?
ReplyDeleteno
ReplyDelete