Sunday, September 17, 2017

Should I view my stroke as punishment

While there are a number of confused and ignorant individuals who strongly disagree with Chazal and RAV Sternbuch, it is far more likely that my actions are the reason for my well being after being declared legally dead a number of months ago following a massive stroke

note rashi in Berachos 5a the suffering should match the sin in the eye of the sufferer

alsp bote shulchan Aruch YD  visiting the sick based on Nedarim 40

32 comments :

  1. It is problematic to see this as purely a punishment, unless it is part of general condition of bnei Adam. As we age, we become more prone to illness, and eventually we leave this world. if my understanding of Adam haRishon is correct, had he not sinned, then he may have lived and not died.
    On the other hand, we all must do teshuva, and in my personal life, many (if not all) bad things have come as a result of "al chet" , , but that is only if I do my own heshbon nefesh. Superficially, I see myself as innocent and hence these events are unwarranted. That's how the mind works.
    If you were "legally dead" and are now alive, then you have had the zchus of techiyat hameitim. I wish you a full refuah shleimah.

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  2. It could be that your yisurim in Olam HaZeh are in order that your reward in Olam HaBah will be greater. Only Hashem knows.
    May you be blessed with good health and may you be written and sealed for a good year.

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  3. What did Rav Shternbuch say that you're referring to people disagreeing with him about?

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  4. 1) We do not have any prophets at this point and time. Anyone who claims to know with any sort of certainty why an individual went through what he did would need to be either a child or a bumbling fool (Boba Basra 12A).

    2) The innumerable zechusim that you have shall hopefully remain with you for eternity.

    3) King David was destined to die at childbirth. Part of why he got his seventy years was to accomplish what he did. It's quite possible that Hashem would be happy if you would continue in accomplishing more and more. ( It is claimed Rav Schach only became actively involved in Klall issues after recovering from a serious illness. It is claimed that Rav Chaim Shmulevitz only began giving his shmoozin - which became the famous Sichos Musser - after his illness with his voice. A "simple" person in Brooklyn ended up spreading Torah far and wide, as well as making about 100 shidduchim, after he had an illness.) Unfortunate illnesses can push people to accomplish more, but that is only their business...which leads into:

    4) If there's an area that you should be doing teshuva about, it is certainly not anyone else's concern other than yours. These big-mouths who cast accusations are doing precisely the opposite of what Hashem would like them to do. They should take a lesson from Penina who caused Channah pain with the intention of helping her. She did help her, but was still punished. How much more so should a person who is just trying to cause you pain recognize their error.

    5) Collectively, we need to stop trying to shoot Messengers. If people have an issue, they should argue about the substance only.

    -----

    (After saying g all this, I think we all still have the right to disagree about substance...)

    May you have a full and speedy recovery. May continue to able to do many, many more good, productive and necessary things. A Kesiva v'vhasima Tova!

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  5. Im roeh odom sheyisurim boim oluv yifashfais bmaasov.

    Hashem gives yesurim as a message to people when they've done something wrong so that they should do tesuhva and fix the problem. The nature and circumstances of the suffering provide hints as to the cause of the suffering. First mida kineged mida should be evaluated, and if the person can't find the cause because of the nature of the suffering he should assume that it's from bitul torah.

    This is a highly abbreviated description of what a person who is suffering should do. The best thing for you in my opinion would be to confer with gedolei torah such as Rav Shternbuch, Rav Leff or Rav Malinowitz or any competent rov that you choose and find a derech for your tikun. Apparently, Hashem yisborach cares for you since you have escaped a death sentence.

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  6. I think that you are totally misreading me. I in no way meant to condemn you. However, ain tzaddik booretz sheyaase tov velo yecheta and everyone has difficulties of one sort or another.

    Hashem provides everyone with information which allows them to see what needs repair so that they can do the proper teshuva. I simply indicated the path that I felt would be best. If you don't like it, you are free to ignore it.

    There is no question that you went through a very difficult time. How you deal with it, is your business.

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  7. I don't think you understand the gemora in bm 58b

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  8. Do you mean to tell us that Rav Sturnbach approves of your blog? He approves of you making fun of gedolim who you disagree with? He approves of being מבייש ברבים anyone who you decide that deserves it? Wow, and now you are saying even chazal approve of your tactics! It's hard to imagine a person who thinks himself always right as much as you do.

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  9. your amazing ignorance 9f basic facts in this case is astounding . i have discussed my relationship with Rav Sternbucuh many times

    i m not making fun o f gedolim bu ihave pointed out the clear universlly accepted fact that RAv Shmuel and son egineerered the invalid and aDULTEROUS marriagef aWITHOUT a get.if you dnnt think adultrey is not a serious matter please find another blog to read

    given your obvious disdain for facts please show me where i have erred in fact or halacha

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  10. Not sure whom this was aimed at, deleted "admirer" perhaps?
    Even if it is "punishment", how do you know what it it is for? Perhaps the one occasion 30 years ago you found a pen in your pocket on shabbes, or something like that - perhaps it means you have a First class Olam Haba, with no "waiting" in that very hot area . Who knows?

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  11. ע' ב"מ נ"ח: לא תונו איש את עמיתו באונאת דברים הכתוב מדבר .... הא כיצד אם היו יסורין באין עליו אם היו חלאים באין עליו או שהיה מקבר את בניו אל יאמר לו כדרך שאמרו לו חביריו לאיוב (איוב ד, ו) הלא יראתך כסלתך תקותך ותום דרכיך זכר נא מי הוא נקי אבד וע' תוס' שם וז"ל כלומר הי' לך לירא מהקב"ה וזה היה בטחונך ... אם היית נקי לא היית אובד כו עכ"ל

    In other words, when someone is suffering, to tell him that it is because of his sins, is an issur deoraissa of onoas devarim

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  12. “Should I view my stroke as punishment” No.
    See what I wrote recently on “You must be wholehearted with the Lord your God. Those nations that you are about to dispossess do indeed resort to soothsayers and augurs; to you, however, the Lord your God has not assigned the like. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed” (Deuteronomy 18:13-15).
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/20931

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  13. First, I would like to wish you Refua Shleima.

    You should probably view it as a possible punishment for something that you have done or you have not done.

    It is expected that narrow minded people will use your misfortune against you, this surely has no relevance whatsoever.

    Ksiva Vechasima tova to all

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  14. First, once again Refuah Sheleimah
    Now, you can look at this any way you like.
    1) It was a punishment for maligning a gadol despite what you think he did wrong
    2) It's reward in this world for your great efforts to spread truth and Torah and you're in for a spectacular olam haba after you turn 120
    3) You didn't exercise, you ate the wrong foods, you didn't take the warnings about your blood pressure seriously. What did you think would happen?

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  15. However in this case, the person himself raised the question in a public forum, and invited comments from others.

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  16. The_Original_Bored_LawyerSeptember 19, 2017 at 10:53 PM

    "It was not given as a means of judging your fellow man"

    True, but you invited it by asking the question.

    I would never tell someone who is ill that it is a punishment. My commandment is to give comfort and help to the extent I can. Whether it is a punishment is between the person and his Maker.

    If it happened to me, then I would view it as an impetus to review my spiritual state. Or at least I hope I would.

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  17. it is irrelevant what i like it is what is correct

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  18. duh?that is a question how reconcile the two gemoras

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  19. He did not raise the question. It was a rhetorical question, as is evident from his following statement.

    The Gemara you bring is a good question but the gemara I brought is the halacha in The Ramba'm and Shulchan Aruch, so your questions remains a good question but the halacha remains the halacha. (Unless, of course, it isn't relevant here, if you can show that it is rather to be compared to the gemara you brought, once we have understood the answer to the stira and the correct application of the halacha.)

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  20. if an individual sees something that deserves such a puritanism for his own behavior

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  21. The difference might lie in whether or not the afflicted person is seeking answers as to why he is being afflicted.
    Rav Hunna was probably interested in hearing his colleagues take regarding his loss, whereas the average Joe who is hurting is not really interested in hearing what people think about his situation.

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  22. “I'm not making fun of gedolim but I have pointed out the clear universally accepted fact that Rav Shmuel and son engineered the invalid and ADULTEROUS marriage WITHOUT a get.”

    Bravo for the scorn and derision aimed at adultery! In olden times it was scoffing at idol worshipping and adultery. Today, only adultery.

    Sanhedrin 63b:
    R. Nahman said: All scoffing is forbidden, excepting scoffing at idols, which is permitted, as it is written, “Bela is bowed, Nebo is cowering, Their images are a burden for beasts and cattle; The things you would carry [in procession] Are now piled as a burden On tired [beasts]. They cowered, they bowed as well, They could not rescue the burden, And they themselves went into captivity” (Isaiah 46:1-2). And it is also written “The inhabitants of Samaria fear For the calf of Beth-aven; Indeed, its people and priestlings, Whose joy it once was, Mourn over it for the glory That is departed from it. (Hosea 10:5). Read not Kebodo [its glory], but Kebedo [his weight] [Rashi explains that the reference is to its excrements].”
    “Hear the word of the Lord, O people of Israel! For the Lord has a case Against the inhabitants of this land, Because there is no honesty and no goodness And no obedience to God in the land. [False] swearing, dishonesty, and murder, And theft and adultery are rife; Crime follows upon crime! For that, the earth is withered: Everything that dwells on it languishes— Beasts of the field and birds of the sky— Even the fish of the sea perish. “Let no man rebuke, let no man protest!” For this your people has a grievance against [you], O priest!... They sacrifice on the mountaintops And offer on the hills, Under oaks, poplars, and terebinths Whose shade is so pleasant. That is why their daughters fornicate And their daughters-in-law commit adultery! I will not punish their daughters for fornicating Nor their daughters-in-law for committing adultery; For they themselves -turn aside with whores And sacrifice with prostitutes, And a people that is without sense must stumble. If you are a lecher, Israel— Let not Judah incur guilt— Do not come to Gilgal, Do not make pilgrimages to Beth-aven, And do not swear by the Lord! “ (Hosea 4:1-4, 13-15).
    רש"י הושע פרק ד פסוק יד
    לא אפקוד על בנותיכם - עוד לבדקן במים המרים כשתזנינה למה כי בעליהם עם זונות יפרדו וכאשר אין האיש מנוקה מעון אין המים בודקין את אשתו,
    The scoffing, scorn and derision, at idols is really scoffing at adultery.

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  23. How do you expect to accurately determine what is "correct"?

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  24. I think you are dead wrong. If someone ascribes your suffering to something that you did, that would possibly be onoas devorim. However, if I point out the derech that the gemora prescribes for a person judging some unfortunate event in their lives, that is not maligning them but rather showing them the proper was to react.

    Do you really feel that your stroke was not an incident of yesurim that requires introspection? I believe there a number of things that you've said or ascribed to which could be questionable.

    What statement of Rav Sternbuch are you referring to in your introduction?

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  25. I think you are dead wrong. If someone ascribes your suffering to something that you did, that would possibly be onoas devorim.......

    Do you really feel that your stroke was not an incident of yesurim that requires introspection? I believe there a number of things that you've said or ascribed to which could be questionable.


    In one singular post you just violated the issur D'oraisa of onoas devorim. You should be very careful and expect punishment for what you have just done.
    (I don't mean that at all. I am trying to highlight the point of what you have just done, Mr. FactsofLife. May you be healthy. Just realize the error.)

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  26. Introspection means investigation and does not imply guilt necessarily.

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  27. Think this through.
    1) Telling a person that he was punished for his sins is wrong. This we agree on, as the Gemara clearly says this.

    You are trying to bifurcate this and claim that
    2) telling a person that he should figure out what he did to deserve the punishment is not wrong. I disagree. Telling a person, specifically, that he needs to introspect in this type of situation is the same Onoas devorim, but on a slightly lower level.

    I will completely agree with you though, that not during a time of crises, one may, and should!, discuss yesurim and introspection. But once you get to a specific individual and case, it is onoas devorim.

    ----
    If you will be honest with yourself, you probably were upset with the treatment of Rabbi Kaminetzky, and would like to imagine that this somehow clears his actions. Well, that requires introspection on your part.

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  28. I only agree that condemning a person for a particular sin is wrong because no one can know the full range of issues of each individual. However, I know that Hashem is just and Chazal have also stated that if suffering comes on a person they should search their actions which means they did something wrong and the suffering is showing what it is. (except in the rare case of just bitul Torah or yesurim shel ahava.).

    I understood Reb Doniel's question as to whether his stroke was a punishment as an expression of his realization that he should embark on an analysis of the nature of the suffering to know what to correct since in the vast majority of cases, this is the true state of affairs of most people that the suffering is for some sin. I was suggesting who he could consult with to determine this and I did not make a declaration of any particular sin and I don't in any way feel that this is onoas devorim in the slightest

    Your perception about my opinion of the Rabbi Kaminetzky issue is not correct. I feel that there are other things that need review such as the condemnation of the Orthodox public for not being menachem ovel Banki while I feel that it was correct not to go and give any support for the Toeiva lifestyle and I am not saying that his stroke came because of that.

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  29. I only agree that condemning a person for a particular sin is wrong because no one can know the full range of issues of each individual.

    You obviously disagree with the Gemara, in many ways and places. No worries, seems par for the course for you.

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  30. You simply are expressing your wrong headed biases and there is no need to respond to idiotic statements such as yours.

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  31. Lol thanks for the laugh!

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