You have acknowledged that you provided the heter for Tamar Epstein to remarry without first receiving a Get from her first husband. You have also said that you have no knowledge of the facts but based yourself on therapists that Rav Kaminetsky said were experts and reliable. You stated that based on the facts that you were told – Tamar’s marriage to Aharon Friedman was a mistake and was null and void according to your understanding of the views of Rav Moshe Feinstein. The therapists claimed that Aharon was suffering from severe mental health issues. In particular they stated that he is suffering from two major incurable personality disorders – either of which is so debilitating that no normal woman would want to marry him. It is claimed that Tamar stayed in the marriage with the hope that these conditions were curable. Finally it is claimed by the report that Tamar left the marriage when she was bluntly told that there was no cure for these disorders. There is apparently no one who disputes these statements.
However as Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Shlomo Miller , Rav Landesman, the Baltimore Beis Din and others major rabbis have stated – the reports are in fact not trustworthy for several reasons. 1) only one of the therapists actually met with Aharon Friedman and he only said that Aharon was not going to change - not that he was severely mentally ill 2) the therapist who wrote the report received his information from Tamar who paid for his services and there was no input by Aharon or opportunity for Aharon to defend himself from the negative accusations 3) it is a well known fact that psychological reports are highly subjective 4) It is acknowledged by experts in psychology that the categories of the DSM diagnostic system include normal behavior as well as pathologies – and thus receiving a label of paranoid or OCD does not by itself mean that the conditions are outside of normal behavior. 5) Only one of the two therapists is frum and he did not speak with Aharon himself. Thus there is only one frum person claiming that Aharon has severe mental issues and he is testifying only from second hand information that he received from Aharon’s wife – hardly a reliable basis for establishing the truth. 6) Perhaps the biggest refutation of the reports claim that Aharon has severe incurable mental illness is that Tamar made no such claims against Aharon to either the Baltimore Beis Din or to the secular court. It is inconceivable that Tamar who is intelligent, sensitive and knowledgeable about modern psychology would not notice the claimed paranoid or obsessive compulsive behavior even after many months of marriage – until a psychologist informed her! Furthermore Tamar made no reference to the mental illness in her diary where she specifically discussed Aharon's good and bad points. Tamar’s most serious claim was that Aharon was not sociable enough for her.
Given the above strong basis that the facts you were given a false – it is a major puzzle why you don’t retract or even investigate whether the facts you used are true. You are quoted as justifying your inaction by saying that this is no different than a case in which a person comes and says a doctor told him that it is a danger for him to fast on Yom Kippur. You say – “Just as I am not qualified to investigate the medical condition of this person but I rely on expert testimony – so here I am not an expert in Psychology and relied on expert testimony that Aharon has 2 incurable mental health problem that prevent him from being a normal husband.” In addition you have said that even if 6 psychologists disagreed with the diagnosis – you would not retract the diagnosis because it has been established by two experts. You claim you are simply applying the halacha to the data given by experts – who would not lie because of the assumption that they would not do something to ruin their reputation.
Unfortunately your explanation is a severe misunderstanding of the nature of Psychology and the value of an expert's diagnosis - especially one made based on an opponent's statement. A better model for understanding what has happened here is the following:
Tamar has been diagnosed with a potentially fatal heart disease. The doctor tells her that her heart will fail unless she stops indulging herself with a diet consisting mainly of pizza, coke, french fries, burgers and candy bars. Despite the warnings, she makes no effort to change her life style because her parents and friends say – as they always have - she is entitled to eat whatever she wants – and no one can tell her what to do.
Consequently her heart is on the verge of failing and she is told the only way to save her life is to get a heart transplant. The problem is there are few transplants available and because of her poor health she is on the bottom of the recipient list.
She goes to her rebbe Rav Shmuel with her problem and he tells her that he knows a heart surgeon who has exclusive access to hearts from men executed for crimes in China. He acknowledges that the morality and legality of the use of such hearts is questioned by many but says – “This is pikuach nefesh! You may surely rely on Rav Nota to save your life. While he doesn’t know anything about cardiology he is the world’s best surgeon and transplant man.”
Rav Shmuel urges her to hire cardiologists to describe her heart condition as terminal and that there is absolutely no other solution than a heart transplant. She finds an expert who is willing to write a report totally based on what she tells him - because she told this expert that her previous doctor said she has very little time left and there is no more time for additional testing.
She makes sure to leave out any information that indicates that life style changes would improve her condition and she distorts all test results to make her condition look as bad as possible. The cardiologist motivated not only by the fat fee he receives but the belief that he is saving her life - writes a detailed report that paints the darkest picture of her condition. He says there is no alternative to an immediate heart transplant and makes up a couple factors to make it even more powerfully urgent.
The next week Rav Nota transplants a heart from a recently executed human rights dissident. He relies on the reports of two doctors in China that the heart is healthy. With great satisfaction he observes Tamar miraculous recovery from heart failure. She is a new woman and she is very grateful to Rav Nota and to Rav Shmuel for suggesting his services. She returns to her life and her lifestyle with great happiness to be given a second chance.
But rumors start circulating on the Internet and even the mainstream media. There are apparently problems. Reports smuggled out of China indicate that the heart “donor” had a horrible disease. A disease that produces horrible disfigurement and muscle debilitation not only in the heart recipient but also in all her future children - as well as ruining her husband's health. Various concerned doctors contact Rav Nota to inform him that there is a good chance that the heart is diseased and that it needs to be removed as soon as possible. Rav. Nota is well acquainted with the disease in question, and knows that its incidence in China is much higher than average. In spite of these dangers,
he eschews all questions about whether this heart has been adequately
confirmed to be free of the disease, and did the operation on the basis
of the say so of people he doesn't know - but were described as experts.
Rav Nota replies to his callers, “I am not a cardiologist and I relied on the expert American doctors who wrote the report that she was sick and I relied on the expert Chinese doctors that certified that the heart was healthy. I don’t want Tamar to be upset by these reports. I am going to deny that there is any problem and tell her she shouldn’t worry about these rumors. Since I am relying on experts – there is nothing to worry about! While these rumors might very well be true – but I will not consider the possibility unless the certifying doctors themselves say they were mistaken. My conscience is clear since I am simply following the rules and I have been guided by the experts - as well as the beracha from Rav Shmuel himself. Stop bothering me and please don’t say anything to Tamar!”
I find it ironic and no one has ever mentioned it, that when a woman like Tamar, or the likes, goes to the public forum, and spreads her dirty laundry to the media and beyond, this in itself shows that SHE SUFFERS FROM A MENTAL DISORDER! She doesnt care how this affects her own daughter. In fact she remarries w/o a Get and is young enough to produce a mamzer and didnt give thought to the ramifications this would have on herself and her daughter. Essentially Tamar exchanged her title from " AGUNA TO ZONAH". Great move Tamar!
ReplyDeleteRav elyashiv forbade going to china for kidney transplants for reasons you allude to.
ReplyDeleteGood point, hope Rav Nota reads this blog
ReplyDelete...any other suggestions what else can be done?
The analogy may in fact fall a bit short.
ReplyDeleteDr. Nota is well acquainted with the disease in question, and knows that its incidence in China is much higher than average. In spite of these dangers, he eschews all questions about whether this heart has been adequately confirmed to be free of the disease, and does the operation on the basis of the say so of people he's never met and doesn't even know.
it must have taken lots of thought to set up such a detailed - and apt - analogy!
ReplyDeleteThe impression I'm getting is that rabbi Greenblatts is a upstanding person with old school values back in the day a Rosh hayeshiva was someone who who lived a life of hardship and dedicated his lifefor the highest values of serving hashem and klal yisroel hence was a person of the very highest caliber and integrity who one can rely on without question. we are as today the actual title is meaningless he can be of the highest caliber or he can be unscrupulous backstabbing amoral dishonest and have a little or no value system whatsoever, rabbi Greenblatt seems to be guilty of not updating his worldview and relying with his eyes closed on these unscrupulous k
ReplyDeleteI really do not understand why you continue to use the names of actual people when giving a "mashal" involving a calamity. Would you like if someone wrote a post saying: Imagine someone, we'll call him Daniel Eidenberg, who is diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, and then his wife leaves him, and he is arrested for committing a hit-and-run accident. I imagine that you would not appreciate it. מה דעלך סני וכו
ReplyDeleteYehoshua - I used the names because I am trying to translate their actual activities into a framework that Rav Greenblatt might come to realize what he is doing. Your previous objection involved a mashal with people whose relationship was not being investigated. I would object to being in a mashal that wasn't trying to understanding my behavior or thinking and thus using me in a mashal that was not true is inappropriate. The only question relevant here is whether the mashal is accurate.
ReplyDeleteIt is still in poor taste. Nothing would be lost in the mashal by calling the woman "Sarah."
ReplyDeletethanks I modified the post
ReplyDeleteI disagree. It is a time honored practice starting with Chazal to say that doing X is equivalnent to Y.
ReplyDeleteReading about the heart transplant for the idiotic
ReplyDeletewoman. Wow a new heart and successful surgery
that affects only future children.! She’s
happy. Wrong! Doing a sin affects one directly, the curses
. “Once he has made her drink the water—if she has
defiled herself by breaking faith with her husband, the spell-inducing water
shall enter into her to bring on bitterness, so that her belly shall distend
and her thigh shall sag; and the woman shall become a curse among her people”
(Numbers 5:27).
Sotah 37b:
“R. Judah b. Nahmani, the lecturer [It was customary
for a teacher to impart the lesson to a lecturer who delivered it to the
disciples.] of Simeon b. Lakish, expounded: The whole section [of the blessings
and curses] refers to none other than the adulterer and adulteress. [It
states,] “Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by
the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people
shall respond, Amen” (Deut. 27:15). Does it suffice merely to pronounce cursed
with such a person! [The penalty is death] But it alludes to one who has
immoral intercourse, and begets a son who goes to live among heathens [Being
the offspring of an adulterous union, he is debarred from the Assembly and
cannot marry an Israelite woman.] and worships idols; cursed be the father and
mother of this man since they were the cause of his sinning. [And not only with
idolatry. His heathen association will lead him to commit the other offences in
this section, provoking upon his parents the enumerated curses; v., however,
Rashi.] Our Rabbis taught: “When the Lord
your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and possess, you
shall pronounce the blessing at Mount Gerizim and the curse at Mount Ebal” (Deut.
11:29).
The NYS Court of Appeals
today denied my motion 2015-1219. My
writing here on this blog is all I can do.
The problem is you think RNG is from this generation and has nothing better to do than to read this blog. A friend of mine met him in the airport - he had been sitting with a Chumash since a family member had dropped him off close to 10 hrs earlier. The problem with you and many others here is that you lack a basic understanding of the man. As someone mentioned earlier perhaps he is guilty of not updating his worldveiw. That alone is a sad statement about our generation.
ReplyDeleteIf I understand your comment, I find it a bit troubling. I understand that for a mesader gittin AND kiddushin to *go out of his way* NOT TO ask too many questions, and here you beautifully illustrate to what degree he should not ask, would only further support my previous description of his involvement as *willful blindness*.
ReplyDeletei missed that. that's what happens when you try reading blogs in between trying to get other work done!
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your concern, but as I have said before, I relied on the fact finding of Rabbi Shalom in this case. Additionally, Rabbi Shalom said that Rabbi Shmuel agreed with his conclusions. Unless they retract their findings, my original psak stands. Finally, notice that the Agudah and Moetzes have been silent--they must agree that I am right.
ReplyDeleteChaim Gordon, you changed your name to Nota?
ReplyDeleteWe'll, if you ask me, it would definitely be better to read this blog, rather than discreetly make questionable gittin and kiddushinn try covering up and take time to retract the 'ticking time bomb'
ReplyDeleteThat question at the end is further proof that you have absolutely no inkling of what type of person RNG is. Unlike other RY or REBBES he has nothing of the sort. Gets along fine without coming on to others in spite of the fact that he is more mobile than almost any other person his age involved in klal work. And no I am not a talmid of his either. I wouldn't even say I have a close relationship with him. However I did have had the honor of speaking to him numerous times regarding halachic matters.
ReplyDeleteCurious to know..... What was wrong with Confused's comment?
ReplyDeleteA better analogy would be to a genetic disease that will be passed down to children. Mamzerus is not a visible affliction but it will be passed down to the children of Tamar and Adam Fleischer as surely as if they inherited a genetic deformity. I doubt the couple will separate even if Rabbi Greenblatt admits he erred. The important reason for him to state publicly he made a mistake is so these unfortunate children will not unwittingly cause further mamzerim.
ReplyDeleteWell, yes or no, are the facts mentioned above about this"heter" accurate or not? Was it done discreetly and quickly? And now that it is clear that it was based on lies (and even if the findings were true, it most likely won't make a difference, ) is he retracting his "heter, thereby saving people from issur aishes ish and mamzerim? Are almost all rabbonim against him? And don't tell me that so many of them are quiet, because that idea is worthless.
ReplyDeleteThank You and
I rest my case.
Discreetly yes, quickly, well the difference letters back and forth imply that it was not. But, I don't think RMF publicized these heteirim at the time they took place either and for good reason. Discreetly is a non-issue.
ReplyDeleteHiding from even poskim? Everybody was kept in the dark, on the cheshbon of Klal Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand you problem. A posek doesn't need to run around getting other poskim to agree and sign off on his psak. RMF didn't publicize them as they shouldn't become standard practice. Same here. You may disagree with the psak but that doesnt mean that everything he did was wrong.
ReplyDeleteIt's absolute insanity and complete intellectual dishonesty to compare RNG to Rav Moshe Feinstein. Period.
ReplyDeleteAdittionally, as Rav Shterbauch has pointed out, every serious yeshiva student finds this "heter" to be faulty and invalid. This is something that never, ever, happened with Rav Moshe.
Rav Moshe did it out of privacy for individuals, if he did. Here they were hiding from poskim, from those with authority. It is an issue. Take a look, so many poskim spoke out , almost no one took their side.......
ReplyDeleteSo, because poskim came out against after the fact, that proves that initially they did it privately to hide from those they knew would be against it. Thats one of the more illogical statements I believe I've ever heard.
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe? Yes. Anybody afterwards? Definitely not. Although Rav Moshe was controversial sometimes, everybody agreed that Rav Moshe was Rav Moshe,NOT IN ANY WAY SIMILAR to RNG being RNG
ReplyDelete...
You seem to have a lot of bandwidth. Not sure if you are trying to cross examine me....to make it simple: the rabbim came out. Silence counts like all the ones that came out now, but we're once silent. Their silence can also be timidity....
ReplyDeleteIn such an ephemeral issue as aishes ish, I think he should. There was no transparency. He can't do what he wants
ReplyDelete