Guest Post by RaP This week, Israeli PM Netanyahu concluded an historic final trip to Washington DC to visit his nemesis US President Obama, and to do some troubling things!
As everyone knows, about six months ago Netanyahu entered into an alliance with all the Charedi parties in Israel to form a new government based on a razor's edge majority of 61 Knesset votes out of the 120 there. Despite this "majority of one" government coalition, it has worked very well to give the Charedim and fervently Orthodox Jews of Israel a welcome reprieve from the afflictions they had suffered for about two years when Netanyahu dumped his long-standing Charedi allies and turned to the rabidly secularist and anti-Charedi Yesh Atid party to form the most anti-Charedi regime Israel has seen in recent decades.
For two years when Netanyahu ruled as part of a triumvirate with Yesh Atid's Lapid and Bayit Yehudi's Bennett, it was mamash a gehinom (hell) for Israel's Charedim. New decrees came out at a cut-throat pace aimed at destroying Charedi educational institutions (their Yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs), the Charedi way of life (men learning in Kollel and mothers of large families), and of course forcing them to sign up and make threats to forcibly enlist them in the army, while secular Israeli society was given a free pass and no demands were made of it at all, as they are the only ones according to themselves supposedly "sharing the burden" ("shivyon banetel") that will surely go down as one of the most twisted propaganda lines foisted on the Jewish People!
All that came crashing down on the heels of the tragic Har Nof Massacre that in turn has become a harbinger of what has now become a full-blown "Stabbings Intifida" by crazed Jihadis targeting mostly Charedi and Religious Zionist Jews.
While Netanyahu has been criticized for being all talk and no action when it comes to not stopping Iran from getting a nuclear reactor to build atomic bombs that would be aimed at Israel, very unlike PM Begin who bombed the Iraqi reactor and PM Olmert who bombed the Syrian reactor -- all without talking and just by taking the right sort of action to ensure the survival of the Jewish People in Israel. Yet Netanyahu has now revealed a pattern similar to this in dealing with the stabbings and shootings and uprising by local Arabs against Israeli Jews. He loves to talk, talk, talk, while murder and mayhem spread like wildfire and as the Ha Nof victims are joined by dozens more in the streets and anywhere the Jihadis can get at them.
Now Netanyahu went to Washington to have what was most likely his last meeting with Obama, and he "kvels" it was his "best meeting yet" while on the streets of Israel Jewish blood is spilled like water. But to add insult to injury it gets worse, if that is possible, and Netanyahu overcoming attempts to boycott him, is insistent on speaking at...no not at a meeting of Charedim in America who are now very numerous and have lots of connections, not to mention that it was once the Lubavitcher Rebbe in America and his Australian Billionaire follower Gutnick who originally helped to put Netanyahu in power, ironically it was also Rav Shach in Israel who supported Netanyahu over Peres originally (with his famous Goral of "VeShimon(Peres) Einenu Ve'es Binyamin (Netanyahu) Tikachu"! Bereishis 42:36) -- Netanyahu meets not with Charedim or the Orthodox in America whose kinsmen in Israel prop up him and his government and help him keep his fancy job as Prime Minister of Israel.
Who does he meet with the day after Obama? Not just with secular Federation-type American Jews, which is okay since they have lots of money and many support Israeli causes, but he announces to the world and it's widely reported in all the Jewish and Israeli media, that Netanyahu promises to seek legitimacy for the Reform and Conservatives and their agendas in Israel!
What kind of "home-coming gift" is this? What kind of "thanks-giving gift" is that? What kind of gratitude is that? What about the fact that he is beholden to the Charedim and Orthodox in his current ruling coalition?
Obviously it must mean that he thinks he "can do better" and that yet again he is signaling, albeit from the USA, that he will be ready to throw the Charedim under the bus one more time very soon when he is ready for it. Add to that the signals and words coming from various Israeli politicians on the Left such as from Labor's Hertzog and Yesh Atid's Lapid that they have received offers or would consider or that Netanyahu's people have reached out to them, and add in that various Charedi politicians have started to warn that a new broad-based coalition with the Left will not work and will lead to a collapse of the current Israeli government, then the only question remaining is how soon the inevitable will happen, and will Netanyahu be gone well-before or right-after Obama who is now in his last year in office.
Things they are a changin' 'cause change is coming!
These are very difficult times for the Jewish People in general and for Israeli Jews in particular. From a Torah-true perspective there is only one way out, to strengthen ourselves in Torah Umitzvos and in Emuna and Bitachon, and increase Ahavas Yisroel and Chesed. The blood of the Kedoshim of the Har Nof Massacre and all the victims before and after who join them almost on a daily basis, Rachmana Litzlan, may HaShem save us, the Mesirus Nefesh of Am Yisroel has brought some reprieve from the Gezeiras ("decrees") of recent times against the world of Torah, for six months Charedi Jews have gotten a break, even though now they are evidently being left to fend for themselves on the streets of Israel, many are afraid to leave home every day and everyone is worried when travelling or walking, while the PM flies to Washington, gets the red carpet treatment, smiles at Obama and says he has had his "best" meeting with him, and the right away the next day rubs salt into open wounds by saying he wants to help the Reform and Conservatives bring their agenda to Israel, as if Israel doesn't have enough problems already!
So that is why we are waiting for the proverbial other shoe to drop because a man who is not loyal to and is obviously chafing at his current Charedi friends who keep him in power, cannot last much longer and as someone has put it, it is not "if" but "when" a new election will be called and the cycle of choices and coalition-building will once again be taking place.
Sooner or later, Israel will get the kind of government it needs and deserves and that means one that will not view Charedim as a "burden" but as Israel's greatest strength, and will look not to fight religious Jews and their way of life but to enhance the Torah and the glory of HaShem and not create the opposite milieu by siding up to and welcoming the Reform and Conservatives to Israel, that will not help them keep up the shaky crumbling secular front in any case.
Israel is a corrupt anti-Torah State. What else is new?
ReplyDeleteRaP, you have been writing these articles for a few years saying that the Government is going to fall etc. Eventually your prediction will turn out right, but so far it has been wrong.
ReplyDeleteYes, Moshiach isn't here yet, and we do not live in a perfect world. Netanyahu is not the Eda Hareidis, so he considers all Jews as Jews, and sometimes that may include Reform (who obviously may have non Jewish geirim amongst them).
To fulfill your wishes, you would need a candidate from the Eidah, who does not recognize the Medina, would not enter the Knesset or Hechal Shlomo of YU (following Brisk tradition), would avoid the Kotel, and would oppose the Army.
Since it is unlikely for such a candidate for PM to stand, or be voted in, then you are asking for too much. Bibi would all Jews for America to come to Israel. He is not the Moshiach, but the joke is that the hareidi rabbis do not want this to happen, and have opposed it for the past 100 years.
I would just add a few more points - and this is purely my own speculation.
ReplyDeleteBibi, Begin, BG or any other secular or even religious PM of Israel has no real control on what is happening in a spiritual sense. They can be destructive, like Golda was or Peres , but Hashem has His plans. If you look at the Hezbollah terror group, who only a couple of years ago was boasting at their 100,000 missiles brazenly aimed at Israel. Now that terror group is being destroyed at the hands of their fellow Islamic "misnagdim" who consider them to be apikorsim. This could not have been predicted 3 or 4 years ago, although it may have been part of my wishful thinking.
The PM can make secular decisions, and brave ones, and try to keep Eretz Yisroel in Jewish hands. But he is just a surfer who is riding on the wave of history, and when he falls off another one will take the helm.
I humbly predict that the next enemy, Iran, will soon be brought to its knees, again by unforseen circumstances, and the modern day Haman will be hanged like his predecessor will. This is the pattern of Hashem's workings which are unfolding. One has to look at the bigger picture to see patterns repeating themselves.
An anti-Torah state that supports thousands of Torah institutions.
ReplyDeleteYou sound confused.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you sound confused, or are deliberately creating confusion.
ReplyDeleteEach article I have written has been focused on a current event or personality and the results of their actions. I am not making a mish-mash as you imply. Who said anything about the EIDAH being on the Israeli government? There are other Charedim in the Israeli Knesset and government not affiliated with the EIDAH, such as Agudat Yisrael, Degel HaTorah, and Shas that are all guided by various "Moetzes" rabbinical leadership councils headed by virtually all the major Ashkenazi Roshei Yeshiva, Chasidic Rebbes and Sefardi Chachamim in Israel, and none of them are members of the EIDAH.
Israel does not have the "monopoly" on corruption. Corruption can be found anywhere and it is found everywhere among all groups, communities and states, because it is part of the failings of all human beings, even among very Frum people, as this blog has pointed out many times and tries to do something about it.
ReplyDeleteNext point, Israel is the center of the Torah world today, and while the state is not fully friendly to Charedim, it is nevertheless connected to them and Charedim, like all Israelis, are dependent on the state and its organs and leaders for their basic needs as citizens, such as a health system (hospitals, doctors, medicines, clinics etc), municipal and local government (for trash removal, traffic control and street lights, water and sewers, electricity and gas, pavements and roads, parks, etc), security (police, crime prevention, etc), judicial system (courts, jails, crime fighting etc), national security and defense (military preparedness, army, polcie, security services, intelligence services, etc), and general government functions (diplomacy, government services, passports and much else, etc), keep democracy alive and running by having proper regular FREE and FAIR elections, etc, and much in between.
Charedim in Israel, like all Israelis need and rely upon all the above to live in an orderly and well-governed society and country and that is why the majority of the Charedi leadership encourages voting for Knesset elections so that there can be bigger Charedi and Orthodox representation and that will allow Charedim to sit in the government and be invoved in it as much as possible. There is no other choice and the Jews do not have a better country, so efforts must be made to improve the only, admittedly inperfect country, we've got!
The real "final solution" to the secular-religious conflict in Israel, and it is really very simple.
ReplyDeleteIt is a quid pro quo, just as the seculars (Chilonim) have been yelling "shivyon banetel" ("share the burden") claiming that when Charedim do not go to the army and "do not work" (a false charge in any case), they are thereby somehow "not sharing in the burden" of living and maintaining modern Israel. So taking this line of "reasoning" the Charedim who are being attacked should respond in the same manner, that secular Israelis are themselves NOT "sharing in the burden" of observing Judaism. Yeah, yeah, they secular Jews will say that "Zionism" has "replaced" Judaism, but no one believes that now because Zionism is only a modern-day political IDEOLOGY. True, that in political science courses they teach that Zionism is a "messianic political ideology" because, like Marxism for example, it preaches the UTOPIAN "political redemption and salvation" of an entire nation and people, but it is still not Judaism that has proven its strength, durability and that it is here to stay, as proven my the hundreds of thousands if not millions of Charedi, Chasidic and Orthodox Jews in Israel and the USA today.
Therefore, just as secular Jews claim they want that Charedim should be "just like them" and "serve in the Israeli army" and "work 9 to 5" just like everybody else, that does not sound unreasonable if you think about it really, but it takes two to tango, and the same can be said back by the Charedim to the secular Jews, that WE EXPECT YOU TO MEET US AT LEAST HALF WAY AND YOU MUST ACCEPT TO BECOME OBSERVANT LIKE US TOO!!!
You want us to share the burden with you, then we want you to share the burden with us and that means you must become at least basically SHOMMER SHABBAT.
Maybe, probably, then if the Charedim will see that the Chiloni secular Jews ALL agree and start to become Shommer Shabbat to some degree or another, then they will feel reassured that they are not being hounded and that since the other side is willing to take on more observances to become Shommer Shabbat, then they too would and should consider sharing in starting to work for a living and NOT relying on state hand-outs and support for all their necessities and would consider some form of participation in the military defense of the only country they have and live in: Israel!
That is the plan for the "final solution" of the Jewish religious-secular divide. And then Shalom Al Yisrael, we don't have to wait for Mashiach to get this job done, when he comes we can then ALL be dressed in our Shabbos best to greet him!!
P.S.
If this sounds like a "fantasy" it is not, because just look at the success and potential of The Shabbos Project under the leadership of Chief Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa that has created an earthquake in the Jewish world making the keeping of Shabbos not just a dream but very easily attainable and doable. There are no excused for secular Jews to avoid their part of "sharing the burden"!!!!
An anti-Torah state that impedes, threatens, arrests, hounds and harasses thousands of Torah institutions and hundreds of thousands of lomdei Torah.
ReplyDeleteDavid I have lived in Israel for over 25 years - your description is nonsense
ReplyDeleteOf course. the central argument i am taking issue with is that Netanyahu is a rasha because he met with and recognized Reform and Conservative judaism. But we have some historical precendents of tzaddikim doing the same:
ReplyDelete1) Hizkiyahu HaMelech, who was slated to be Moshaich, wrote to the ovdei avodah Zara and secular jews of his time, to come to
Jerusalem and bring the Pesach sacrifice at the Beit Hamikdash.
2) When Yoshiahu was told about the hidden scroll of the Torah, he went to Huldah the prophetess. The meforshim ask the question why did he not go to Yirmiyahu? The answer is that Yirmiyahu was trying to bring back the dispersed tribes who had been exiled.
More recently, Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld together visited a secular Kibbutz to mekareve the kibbutzniks. And the Chazon Ish also visted a kibbutz, and the driver who colelcted him was given a brocho, that his sone should be a Torah scholar. that son is R' Effie Eitam, who was also a politician in one of the Nationalist parties.
So reaching out to reform is not wrong in any way. If there are problems when they return to Israel, that is for Eliyahu haNavi to sort out.
Utter foolishness.
ReplyDeleteThis is s question for Rav Moshe sternbuch.
ReplyDeleteYour Rov, Rav Shternbuch shlita, has lived in Israel longer than you and he agrees with me. Certainly is much closer in agreement with me than with you on this point.
ReplyDeleteNever heard. him. say what you said
ReplyDeletewell said!
ReplyDeletethe opposition to Zionism by groups like Satmar, Munkatch, Neturei Karta etc was based largely on what they saw as the halachic status of the 3 oaths. That is a whole debate in itself.
ReplyDeleteThe claim you are making is to allege there is oppression of religious Jews by the State. This is ridiculous. The Knesset has religious parties in Government, and funds religious education. In public sector jobs, having a Semicha is a recognized qualification, and will give you a higher salary, i.e. it is comparable with having a PhD for example. This generous State benefit has even been abused by some rabbis who gave fake semicha to people, so they could get a higher salary - the complete opposite of what Chazal say in Avot - do not make the Torah a spade to dig with ( as a tool for your own benefit).
Is that because you never asked him... (Also do you mean you heard him say the opposite or that you never heard him address the issue?)
ReplyDeleteAnd that picks up the tab for the tuition of the vast majority of children in Chadorim, Bais Yaakovs, and other orthodox schools. The הבל פיהם של תינוקות של בית רבן is almost entirely funded by "an anti-Torah state."
ReplyDeleteThe frum pay taxes that fund all schools, religious and irreligious. So they're simply getting back their school tax shekels.
ReplyDeletejust like in America, right?
ReplyDeleteThe frum and everyone else. I daresay the frum get back a lot more than their own school tax shekels, by an order of magnitude.
ReplyDeleteBut that's not even relevant. If this were actually an "anti-Torah state that impedes, threatens, arrests, hounds and harasses thousands of Torah institutions and hundreds of thousands of lomdei Torah," as some fools maintain, then the state would not give a single penny to frum schools. They would maintain a system of public schools, as in all other countries (such as the US), and support only those. All private schools would have to function on their own dime.
Yes, just like America. If you want to argue America funds Torah, your can similarly argue that Israel and Europe funds Torah. Europe also find private schools, not just public schools, as Israel and some U.S. Stares do. There's no good reason for a government to only find government run (and usually poorly at that) public schools but not (usually better run) private schools.
ReplyDeleteAre you claiming that America funds Torah the same way and degree that Israel does?!
ReplyDeleteMy payments for my children's education were drastically lower than what I was paying in New York
New York doesn't pay private school tuition, secular or parochiol. Europe and some other US States do pay.
ReplyDelete@Moe are you disagreeing with the basic idea that considering the degree to which Israel does in fact fund religious education - that it is difficult to conclude that they are trying to destroy religion?
ReplyDeletePrivate schools are not at all subsidized in the US.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what your point is that taxpayers fund school taxes. Correct, and they still must pay tuition. Not so in Israel.
The idea that they are trying to destroy religion is ludicrous on its face. It is the stuff of paranoid conspiracy theories, but is unfortunately gaining currency among ordinary frum people.
ReplyDeleteHow do you explain their kidnapping Yaldei Teiman, cutting off their peyos, police on horseback storming into peaceful unarmed protestors at burial sites, trying to draft kollel yungerleit, etc.
ReplyDeleteSome States do fund private school tuition. In Europe is almost universally the case.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/06/tax-dollars-private-school/2623101/
@Moe there was a time when they were anti - religion. But that has clearly changed over the years.
ReplyDeleteYou might be aware that a significant amount of funding comes from America and it is important to show victim hood to justify those funds.
Are you aware that there is a problem all over the world with police brutality of various degrees.
Bottom line when you look at the overall picture and compare it to the norms in other countries - Israel is a very nice environment to be religious and to raise religious children.
According to you the obvious solution would be to flee Israel for the safe haven of America or even Russia or perhaps France? Why are the citizen's of those countries coming to Israel - don't they know as much as you do?
America and Europe have a large number of Israelis who left Israel, for what that's worth.
ReplyDeletesecular Jews who are seeking money
ReplyDeleteMoe did you ever live in Israel?
ReplyDeleteYaldei Teiman: decades ago, there has been nothing comparable in many, many years.
ReplyDeletePolice on horseback: I was at some of those hafganos. The police could be brutal, although it's been decades since those times too. I'll note as well that they were reacting to some really violent behavior. If the protests had been peaceful, as the rabbonim wished, such scenes would not have occurred. In any case, I don't consider police reactions to violent rioters as proof that the state wants to destroy religion.
Trying to draft yeshivaleit is not about wanting to destroy Torah. It's about wanting everyone to shoulder an equal burden. I of course believe it is a misguided effort -- the bnei Torah protect us as much and probably more than the army -- but it's an understandable impulse for those who are not religious, and even for many who are. Also, going to the army is not automatically anti-Torah -- there are serious bnei Torah among the mizrachi population who have gone to the army, and the same could work for chareidim if done properly. R' Shteinman himself evidently agrees, as evidenced by his support for Nachal HaChareidi. And let's not pretend that the yeshiva system is not abused to keep non-learners out of the army. Unfortunately, it is often abused, as is obvious to anyone who cares to see. If yeshivos would clean house, and shelter only those who are seriously involved in learning, I believe the secular view of yeshivos would improve immensely.
If they were trying to destroy yiddishkeit, they would make like the majority of the states that don't fund private schools, and cut off yeshivas. It would be an obvious move. The reason they don't is that they are not trying to destroy yiddishkeit.
ReplyDeleteSome move to Germany.
ReplyDeleteThe international norm is that states fund private schools. The US is an exception with separation of church and state. Israel has no such excuse.
ReplyDeleteRav Shteinman opposes Nachal Chareidi. He wrote a handwritten letter to this effect, calling out those false claims about him. He said even if someone isn't learning they should not serve in the army including NC. The only ones he "doesn't oppose" joining Nachal Chareidi are Mechallel Shabbos/OTD children from Chareidi homes. As an aside, NC is constituted with 80% being daati leumi.
ReplyDeleteAnd a large portion of DL who join the IDF as frum, discharge as chilonim r"l. And indeed that is one of the IDFs melting pot goals. Not to mention the numerous everyday stories such as of the IDF implementing vital national security measures such as forcing unwilling religious soldiers to attend kol isha / women singing army concerts at penalty of jailing. Must I begin relating the prevelant open immorality in the IDF between men and women soldiers?
Moe we are going around in circles. Please write up a guest post as to
ReplyDelete1)why you think Israel is anti religious - what would it need to do differently to lose that designation
2) What society do you think most favorable to religion. Name names
3) historically whether Judaism has benefited the most from freedom and persecution
4) Whether you consider emancipation as beneficial such as R S R Hirsch or as harmful - eveyone else
5) would you recommend people leave Israel because of what you consider anti-Torah attitude and move where?
Rav Shteinman was a supporter of Nachal before he became Gadol HaDor, but has since retracted his position.
ReplyDeleteIf a larger portion of DL become less DL when they leave the army, it would mean there are no DL men left, and no DL families. But this is a growing sector, with more yeshivot , etc. In any case, a portion (i don't know how large) of hareidi youth end up leaving frumkeit, even without serving in the army, so cause and effect is not necessarily proven vis a vis the army.
No question the army as presently constituted is not a place of spiritual safety for the average chareidi young man. What I said was that it could work for chareidim if done properly. So far that has not happened.
ReplyDeleteYou undermine your own argument. The very fact that they do not separate "church" and state (i.e. Torah and state) demonstrates that they are not anti-Torah. Why would an anti-Torah state empower a religious rabbinate?
ReplyDeleteYou are conflating too many time frames (incorrectly and illogically by the way) and too many diverse subjects (wrongly comparing a secular Israeli PM to a Melech of Novi in Tanach, or to recent Gedolim is a false analogy). A Kibbutz is not a Reform or Conservative movement. A Kibbutz is secular set-up devoid of religion or just anti-religious, a Tinokos Shenishbe'u place, while Reform and Conservative are deviant break-away heresies. The Reform and Conservatives are not "lost, dispersed tribes" they are in the here and now. Stop making classical "category mistakes"! Stick to the realities of the present.
ReplyDeleteThe only theoretical way it could be done properly were if the Israeli Army were to endeavor a 360 degree complete overhaul of their army. There army as it is currently construed is a spiritual danger to any and all.
ReplyDeleteRav Shteinman was never a supporter of the Nachal. Hi letter says so clearly and specifically. So unless you are accusing him of being a liar...
ReplyDeleteIsrael couldn't separate synagogue and state even if they wanted to. Because if they ever contemplated that, it would immediately and clearly demonstrate to one and all that Israel is not a "Jewish State".
ReplyDeleteI think it could be done with units consisting only of chareidim with religious officers, and with rules in place guaranteeing the integrity of a chareidi lifestyle in the army.
ReplyDeleteIt's common knowledge that at one time he supported it.
ReplyDeleteNonsense. They could be a culturally Jewish state, composed of Jews, but without religious affiliation. Which is what you actually claim they are.
ReplyDeleteClaiming to be culturally Jewish State without practicing Judaism is like claiming to be culturally Native American State without being Native American Indians. It ain't Jewish and it ain't Indian. Which is why Israel needs to pretend to have religion. Because they know without it they have no leg to stand on in claiming to be a Jewish State.
ReplyDeleteSo you're calling Rav Shteinman a liar. Because in his letter to Rav Don Segal he unambiguously writes he never supported it.
ReplyDeleteWhat's your proof/source for this "common knowledge"?
They have a history of forcing religious soldiers to violate Jewish Law on unimportant issues such as forcing them to listen to women sing. And you would trust them even if they promised a so-called "chareidi lifestyle" in the army?
ReplyDeleteI'm not calling anyone a liar, least of all R' Shteinman.
ReplyDeleteCommon knowledge doesn't require a proof/source. It is what it is.
I said if it was done properly, and that's what I meant.
ReplyDeleteClaiming to be a culturally Jewish State without practicing Judaism is
ReplyDeletelike claiming to be a culturally Native American State without being
Native American Indians.
A poor analogy, since Israelis, religious or not, are in fact Jews.
ReplyDeletehere is one example amongst many over a period of years when it was common knowledge that he viewed the Nachal Charedi as a legitimate option
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3298583,00.html
Klatzkin is not the only target of the Sicarii, who have also attacked some of the most important haredi rabbis and a public figure. They threw stones at the home of Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, head of the Lithuanian faction of the haredi community, when he handed down a ruling in Jewish law that they didn’t like about desecration of graves on the Pisgat Ze’ev road.
Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, one of the haredi world’s most respected and important rabbis, was forced to go to the wedding of one of his grandchildren in Bet Shemesh accompanied by a guard when the Sicarii threatened him for giving permission to haredi men to join the haredi Nahal battalion of the IDF.
Recently they have harassed Eda Haredit rabbinical court member Rabbi Meir Brandsdorfer because he dared to shake hands with Rabbi Steinman. After Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski lost his grandson, the Sicarii published a pashkevil declaring that the toddler’s death was caused by a “pulsa dinoura” curse placed on his head.
the Sicari can not be considered as Torah observant Jews, it is an extremist group, which is at the other end of the spectrum from reform. they also falsify the Torah and are mevazeh Talmidei hachamim.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, dear kishkeyum, we are fighting the same battle!
ReplyDeleteAre you going to accept the anti-religious Ynet zionist rag over the the ksav yad of Rav Shteinman himself about what Rav Shteinman did or didn't say or support? Or will you accept the delusions of violent thugs who physically assault gedolei yisroel shlita over their delusional assumptions about said gedolei yisroel over what the godol himself says about himself, in writing no less where you can see his ksav yad?
ReplyDeleteYou're saying that Rav Shteinman's letter saying he never supported the Nachal Chareidi is a lie.
ReplyDeleteAnalogy or no analogy, a State without Judaism is not a Jewish State. Culture or no culture. So-called "Jewish culture" does not Jewish make.
ReplyDeleteThe letter of recent times is Rav Shteinman as the Hareidi Gadol HaDor, and after the previous government when Lapid and friends wanted to conscribe all Yeshiva students into the army. At that point, the Gedolim reacted very strongly to the new status quo. 15 or 20 years ago, Rav Shteinman was not the final spokesman for Degel and was not at that point the Hareidi Gadol haDor. The political situation was also different.
ReplyDeleteSo many things have changed.
Will wonders never cease. Who is influencing whom, I wonder.
ReplyDeleteDon't tell me what I'm saying. I can speak perfectly well for myself.
ReplyDeleteIs this letter available online? Please provide a link or a source.
ReplyDeleteWhy not? There are Jewish organizations and synagogues that have been around a long time despite not observing the Torah. The Israeli state could do the same. It has not done so.
ReplyDeleteHere is Rav Shteinman's letter to Rav Don Segal:
ReplyDeleteLike the Reform. They've been around hundreds of years.
ReplyDeleteCatskills, i am trying to understand what your claim is but it does not make much sense. In the Torah, and NaCh, we see for many years that the Kings and people would practice Avodah zarah. yet the Neviim still address them as "Israel" or "Yehuda" , Ephraim, etc.
ReplyDeleteAnd the message of the Neviim is for them to return to Hashem. However, the great prophets, Isaiah and Jeremiah for example, often cry out at hypocrites who practice religion but are sinning in a particular area, eg injustice, charity etc.
So your simplistic equation of not totally religious = not Jewish is quite laughable. In fact halacha refutes your position. There are certain things that take into account the Jewish presence in Israel. Thus, a majority of Jews living in Israel will make shemitta laws d'oraita, rather than d'rabbanan (at present). This halacha does not say that the observance of those jews is me'akev. In other words, it becomes a halachically Jewish majority regardless of whether the inhabitants of Israel are frum or not.
Newsflash! By last night, Netanyahu passes 2015-2016 state budget with help of Charedim in 61-59 Knesset vote, everyone is scared by the latest outbreak of Islamic violence it seems! Coalition with Charedim in governing coalition saved for now, future uncertain, uneasy alliance between Netanyahu and Charedim holds for now. He's itching to dump them but he can't as he is on the brink all the time.
ReplyDelete