this should come as no surprise, even the Traditional YU Rabbonim have blasted the OO "halacha", and in general their (OO) statements are violating the 13 principles of Maimonides, most significantly their denial of Torah Min ha'Shamayim.
Is THIS what the Moetzes finds important? What about Eishes Ish that one of their members actively permits, and the only response from his colleagues is.........SILENCE!!!!!!!!! Unbelievable!!!!!!
The problem is the number of people who know so little about the true breadth and depth of Yiddishkeit as to be ripe for exploitation by OO. Such people may not even know or care what the Agudah is.
It is for this reason that it's important, because the Heter of T.E. may seem as OO became acceptable to the traditional orthodex. Comes the MOETZES and clarifies the all MATZEV
Not everyone accepts the 13 Ikkarim of haRambam. And how about the views of other rishonim who might differ with Maimonides, eg Ibn Ezra on certain aspects of Torah Authorship?
So we need to agree what we mean by Torah Judaism, before giving it a name!
this is an interesting article http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.668002 in particular, the graph shows the demographics of different religious views in Israel. Only 3% are "secular"! That means apart from the don't knows, the rest have some relationship to Torah. An important question is to think about how to engage to the large group of people in the middle who are Jews and have some connection to the Torah. The squabbling about matters within the frum world can occupy our time and we forget why we were originally exiled from Israel.
It would evidently seem that RAS and RSK are united, with R Dovid Feinstein and Malkiel, they have found a way to create "unity" and not deal with excoriating RSK as this blog have been doing about the "heter nussuin", by instead ganging up on....the MOs instead!
You see, once a rabbi is a member of the exclusive Moetses club, he gains the papal infallibility of so-called "daas torah" and he cannot be reprimanded, demoted or attacked really. So from time to time there are flareups and this Moetzes member will maneuver against another Moetzes member, but at the end of the day, they are all glued in place and cannot be touched by accusations from the past or present.
So therefore the anti_RSK people lose big time on this anti-RSK jihad, and all their protests against RSK are no better than the past protests against RAS, so anyone can tell (if they think about it for a minute) how it feels to know the truth, to try to uphold it, and to be scorned and marginalized for daring to speak up for the truth! It's not fun, I know, but hopefully the anti-RSK folks can take it!
By the way, in North America, most MOs are more like the Avi Weiss radicals than the old-time YUers. They have become the new Reform while the Agudists have become the new "MOs" and the ultra-Charedim and Chasidim are the "just plain frum folks"! The world has been moving LEFTWARD for a long time now! Perhaps on the surface it may seem like a so-called rightward tilt, but it's only superficial and external, people wearing darker clothing and longer beards and payos, but in reality, the Earth and the reality on the ground and real life has shifted leftward, like everyone else, moving a few big notches into being something they were never before.
“Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah: Open Orthodoxy is not Orthodox Judaism”
I agree, of course, but saying it like this looks bad. We need the resolution of the Mendel Epstein et al first. So many of Rabbi Weiss’ supporters are involved with the crimes of Mendel Epstein et al. After the sentencing, surely, Rabbi Weiss and his supporters will do a rethink. if Rabbi Weiss and his supporters will walk back on some of their more controversial anti-men stuff, could be Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah could tolerate them.
The proclamation has very little to do with those issues. It has to do with their positions on the historical truth of the Torah and the concept of Torah MiSinai.
Ami Magazine is in favor of open orthodoxy. Tamar Epstein a married woman getting remarried without obtaining a get from her husband is open orthodoxy.
Those who "differ with Maimonides" are differing with an explicit Gemara in the beginning of chelek. It is a mystery to me why some people continue to "blame" the rambam for this. Though I think we can figure out why.
In the past a Rosh Yeshiva from Torah Vodass has been a member of the Moetzes. Through Rav Pam zt"l. Is there any reason the current Moetzes doesn't include a R"Y from Torah Vodass? Are any of the current R"Y serving in the same capacity in the yeshiva, as R"Y, as Rav Pam was?
Also, hasn't Mir (Brooklyn) also in the past had a R"Y serving on the Moetzes?
The core difference and issue with open orthodoxy as opposed to "traditional" orthodoxy is not any specific halachic or hashkafic deviation; that alone would not write them out of the fold- it would raise ire but not total rejection (see chabad for example).
The real underlying fault line is in the approach to religion- do I say what can I get from Judaism or do we say what can I give. In other words am I subservient to religion or is it subservient to me. Open orthodoxy has taken the latter approach which is a radical and fundamental departure from the way Judaism was practiced for all of history. And that is why mainstream Orthodox Jews have such a visceral to rejection of them.
No we don't - just because I can't tell you the exact height at which a hill becomes a mountain, doesn't mean that the word "mountain" has no meaning. When borderline cases present themselves we can deal with them then. Do I need to know the Halachic status of an Androginos before I use the term "man" and "woman"?
Please clarify what Gemara you are referring to. This would mean a Gemara that lists those particular 13 ikkarim as the deifinition of Torah-true theology, absent the belief of which one is a kofer.
The Roshei Yeshiva of the Mirrer Yeshiva and the Bais HaTalmud Yeshivos in Brooklyn have traditionally avoided getting involved in "politics" and in recent memory have refused to serve of the Moetzes of Agudas Yisroel of America. The late Rav Shmuel Birenbaum ZT"L RY of the Mirrer Yeshiva was asked many times to join, but he always refused saying he had no time for that kind of stuff because he needed time to learn!
As for Rav Yisroel Belsky (what's with all the hush-hush, he is famous and can take it) he has been kept off the Moetzes mainly by the objections of RAS because, hey guess what, they are so similar, and in fact Rav Belsky is actually a genuine Posek and Av Bais Din while RAS is not! Rav Belsky basically upholds all the Shitas of Rav Moshe Feinstein, including having once given a "heter nissuin" about ten or so years ago, over which Rav Aron Schechter went ballistic and wrote a vociferous letter against Rav Belsky.
To the one below who asks if I have a "fetish" over RAS, the answer is no I do not, I just have an awareness, that you seem to be lacking, that Rav Aron Schechter is the the dominant voice within the Moetzes, he is actually the most powerful Moetzes member, most people know this, so it is important to focus on him because he is at the center of all the important decisions and moves in the American Aguda world, and in organizations such as the Jewish day school organizations Torah Umesorah, and he has great influence over Malkiel Kotler of BMG-Lakewood who does not make a move without consulting with RAS. So it is just a reality we all have to accept and live with, it is not an on "obsession" by an means!
As for Rav Yisroel Belsky the current main Rosh Yeshiva of Torah Vodaas, his power and prestige are now sky-high in the Litvish Aguda and Yeshiva worlds simply because, aside from his standing as a huge Torah scholar, his BILLIONAIRE son in law Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz from California is now probably the biggest supporter of Litvish Yeshivos in Israel and America.
Recently there seems to have been a thawing of relations between RAS and Rabbi Belsky given that their names appeared together prominently on the huge full page ads in the Charedi and Orthodox papers, supporting to recent "Shabbos Project" and, even more noteworthy, lo and behold, Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz agreed to have his name on the main dinner committee for the next huge Chaim Berlin dinner in December. this can only mean that behind the scenes they are preparing the Oilam for a rapprochement and to even expect, logically, that Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz would not be lending his name to Chaim Berlin's fundraising efforts if as a quid pro quo (a deal for deal) RAS drops his objections to Rav Belsky being on the Moetzes. It is hard to see any other type of coutcome from all this kissing-and-making-up!
So things they are a changin', and given that Rav Belsky and his son law work together and are very close, it cannot be long that Rav Belsky will be let on to the Moetzes whether people like it or not or like him or not. That's how it seems right now.
See below, can you really tell the difference between Rav Aron Schechter and Rav Yiroel Belsky?:
RaP, I very much appreciate your lengthy and incisive comments (as I did those of your alter-ego CBT) and I thank you for your continued posting. However, on this point I think you are way off-base. To appoint Belsky (defender of pedophiles and of Dovid Weinberger) to the Moetzes would be a major PR nightmare for Aguda. The Moetzes is already caught in a downward spiral in terms of their influence, authority and prestige. To appoint Belsky would be an absolute death-knell. I would also add that RAS was not the only one who went ballistic over Belsky's heter in the S case, I believe that letter was also signed by HRH"G RSFC.
I think RaP is on target regarding Rav Belsky's future potential membership on the Moetzes. Gedolim have disagreements all the time between each other. Even voiciferous disagreements. Even hard, loud, disagreements with much language and denounciation. But they are all l'sheim shamayim. They don't lose respect for each other (other than in the rarest of rare cases such as R. Emden/R. Eibshutz - but those are the cases where it is less than once in a lifetime.)
And Rav Belsky is accepted as a godol b'yisroel. Period. Despite whatever disagreements there were in the historical past. Yes, its true the online crowd here doesn't like R. Belsky's positions on divorce and gittin issues. But the online loudmouths don't get a vote on whose a godol or who is added to the Moetzes.
I was not referring to all 13 ikkarim just the authorship of Torah.
סנהדרין צ'ט עמוד א:
תניא אידך כי דבר ה' בזה זה האומר אין תורה מן השמים ואפילו אמר כל התורה כולה מן השמים חוץ מפסוק זה שלא אמרו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא משה מפי עצמו זהו כי דבר ה' בזה ואפילו אמר כל התורה כולה מן השמים חוץ מדקדוק זה מקל וחומר זה מגזרה שוה זו זה הוא כי דבר ה' בזה
he is right about the leftward tilt. It is obvious. A generation ago, the [un]Jewish Observer was mevazeh Rav Soloveitchik and YU in general. This process began at some point when RYBS left Agudah , but in those days some Hareidim boycotted YU, although the greatest gedolim like Rav Henkin and Rav Feinstein would still visit.
The situation today is that there are no more great rosh yeshivas in America, and hence they respect Rav Herschel Shachter instead of mocking him (i dont refer to the NK nut types). American Hareidim do their own Yeshiva + University, and when they come to Israel it is obvious they are more meikel than their Israeli cousins. They also support Israel, and are often clean shaven.
1: Do you think that this Gemara holds that the opinion in the Gemara that Yehoshua wrote the final 8 pesukim of the Torah is in the category of כי דבר השם בזה? 2: The answer to the previous is obviously no, and the reason is that the focus of this Gemara is the point of the contrast between מן השמים on the one hand and מפי עצמו on the other. Accordingly, saying, as the Ibn Ezra alludes, that there were other pesukim added later based on divine guidance would not contradict this Gemara either. A careful reading of the Rambam in Mishne Torah may lead to the same conclusion.
That's hogwash. The Jewish Observer article on RJBS's petira was anything but mevazeh anyone. Other than in the vividly imaginative minds of the hard MOs. The article was very respectful. But the MOnics didn't think it praised RJBS to the hilts enough so they wrote articles saying it was mevaze him.
Rav Aharon Kotler ZT'L, and Rav Schneur ZT'L after him, would under no circumstances even walk into YU. Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT'L also, when he came to America in the '30s, was invited to speak in YU, and he refused to even walk in to the place. Rav Shneur didn't go into YU for the funeral of a close talmid. He had his driver circle outside until they came out. Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy'd declined an invitation to speak in YU when he was in America. See this letter referencing YU from Rav Elchonon during the war where he writes its better to remain in physical danger in wartorn Europe than to be brought to the US by YU at where the students will in spiritual danger.
Rav Elchonon's position was a tragic failure. Rav Kotler also had this position until it dawned on him what was really going on. he ended up working with Reform and being mechalel Shabbes in order to save lives. BTW, I've seen that letter, however, I am curious where there is a halachic basis to such a claim (of course it would be foolish of me to imagine that Rav Wasserman H'YD did not know halacha well enough to make such a statement).
No, it most certainly not a failure. Rav Elchonon hy'd specifically and directly in the letter said that it was better to face a physical risk of death than to face a spiritual risk of death. IOW, better to die al kiddish Hashem, Rav Elchonon said, than to for one's life to be saved by YU but turned into a living apikorus by the heresy spread and taught by the university.
It was never a matter of working with Reform or goyim to save lives. That's okay according to anyone. The issue was enrolling into YU, which was a spiritual danger due to the apikorsus taught - that would have been required enrollment in order to be saved by YU. So Rav Kotler's pikuach nefesh activities are not relevant to this discussion or point.
Controversy goes with leadership. A leader who is not controversial in some way, is, what exactly? There is an old saying that Rav Hutner would like to tell over whenever someone would point out something negative resulting from "good" actions or some sort of fallout, and he would say, "az mehakt holtz fallen shpalten" -- "if you chop wood, splinters go flying"! There is an even sharper vorth I heard in the name of Rav Aron Kotker ZT"L, that once a boy was going crazy from too much learning in yeshiva and someone came to complain, maybe a relative or family friend, to point out that Torah learning was being "harmful" -- and Rav Aron Kotler was totally unfazed and unmoved and replied back "lernen heist milchamta shel Torah, und in yeder milchama fallen korbonos" -- "Torah learning is called 'war of Torah' and every war there are casualties"!
Thus just take a look at each name on this list of Moetzes members and virtually with each one, the more prominent they are the more controversy trails them or they generate controversy. Such as, Rav Aron Schechter has had lots of controversy around him, this blog has mentioned and listed so many that I will not repeat them again; Rav Levin from Chicago was connected with the Meisels family and he has escaped subpoenas to testify in abuse cases by a hair; the Novominsker Rebbe deso not oppse the Boro Park eruv he lived in even though his predecessor as head of the Moetzes Rav Moshe Feinstein fought his whole life against big city Eruvin; Rav Feldman has ignored pleas to fire rebbeim accused of pedophilai on Ner Israel; Rav Malkiel Kotler got a heter meah rabbanim to remarry, when no one one would even hire a first grade rebbe who came with such personal baggage not to mention stuff that goes on in Lakewood that he should be speaking out against and doesn't; Rav Dovid Feinstein defended his brother Reuvain's grandosn in withholding a get for a long time that made the Dodelsons go crazy and wage a rampage against the world; and of course now Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky and this mistake he has made which he is not about to go back on no matter how much anyone shouts because the dye is cast and choose who you want to go by in this sordid affair.
so the bottom line is that the "perfect Gadol" does not exist because, hey, the perfect human human being does not exist.
So Rav Yisroel Belsky will fit right in, because at one point or another virtually every Gadol has defended one sort of pervert or another! And they will all tell you that they are right and yoiu are wrong! By the Chasidim they don't even get into this type of discussion, because a pervert can be convicted and jailed but they will still support him no matter what the witnesses say against him. Such is frum life, it is brainless at many times, like arguing with a parents whose child is misbehaving but the parents insist that their little darling can do "no wrong"!
There is an old saying that "a community deserves the rabbi it gets" and likewise it is also true that an Oilem gets the Gedolim it deserves. Standards are lower all around for everything, even for getting on the Moetzes!
So there is no reason to keep someone of Rav Yisroel Belsky stature and influence off the Moetzes because of petty stuff (at least that is how current frum society looks at it, per hiskatnu hadoros) that is trivial in the greater scheme of things!
Oh where to start, forget it I will only say a few things. Rav Belsky is not what people make him out to be. While there is no doubt that he is more posek than many on the Moetzes, he would have been better off not allowing the printing of his a teshuva sefer, as it shows him up to be very middling at best. Some of your other facts are simply wrong, but I will leave this for another time.
Oh, I should add, that this comment is totally off base, “the Novominsker Rebbe does not oppose the Boro Park eruv he lives in even though his predecessor as head of the Moetzes Rav Moshe Feinstein fought his whole life against big city Eruvin. ” First of all, the Novominsker rebbe signed on the kol korei kneged the BP eruv. Second of all, RMF allowed an eruv in Kew Garden Hills, Queens, and Oak Park Detroit. So much for RMF fighting his whole life against big city eruvin.
this should come as no surprise, even the Traditional YU Rabbonim have blasted the OO "halacha", and in general their (OO) statements are violating the 13 principles of Maimonides, most significantly their denial of Torah Min ha'Shamayim.
ReplyDeleteIs THIS what the Moetzes finds important?
ReplyDeleteWhat about Eishes Ish that one of their members actively permits, and the only response from his colleagues is.........SILENCE!!!!!!!!!
Unbelievable!!!!!!
OO left Orthodoxy a while ago. It's been right wing Conservatism with a dash of Reform and a token mechitzah for some time.
ReplyDeleteWe need a new word for Torah Judaism instead of "Orthodox". Any ideas?
ReplyDeleteWhen did the Vyelepoler Rebbe shlit"a and Rav Yitzchok Feigelstock shlit"a join the Moetzes?
ReplyDeleteHow about "open marriage" ?
ReplyDeleteTorah MiSinai
ReplyDeleteThe yeshiva is falling apart, two talmidim left today, and more will be leaving at end of week
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the number of people who know so little about the true breadth and depth of Yiddishkeit as to be ripe for exploitation by OO. Such people may not even know or care what the Agudah is.
ReplyDeleteBecause of this incident?
ReplyDeleteJudaism
ReplyDeleteWhich yeshiva is falling apart?
ReplyDeleteIt is for this reason that it's important, because the Heter of T.E. may seem as OO became acceptable to the traditional orthodex. Comes the MOETZES and clarifies the all MATZEV
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I always thought that Orthodox it a bit of an insult. I think it originates in Christianity and there is has a different meaning.
ReplyDeletevayhi bimei shfot hashoftim. Id be careful "Lakewood Yeshiva Guy".
ReplyDeleteThe term Orthodox was imposed upon those called Orthodox Jews by the non-Orthodox Jews.
ReplyDeletethey obviously know something you and i dont.
ReplyDeleteYes, yct
ReplyDeleteThe students are not all OO, they go for free tuition, but are not interested being in a non Orthodox institution
Id be careful
ReplyDeleteCareful not to endorse adultery?
Howabout a definition of Torah Judaism? :)
ReplyDeleteNot everyone accepts the 13 Ikkarim of haRambam. And how about the views of other rishonim who might differ with Maimonides, eg Ibn Ezra on certain aspects of Torah Authorship?
So we need to agree what we mean by Torah Judaism, before giving it a name!
this is an interesting article http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.668002
ReplyDeletein particular, the graph shows the demographics of different religious views in Israel. Only 3% are "secular"! That means apart from the don't knows, the rest have some relationship to Torah. An important question is to think about how to engage to the large group of people in the middle who are Jews and have some connection to the Torah. The squabbling about matters within the frum world can occupy our time and we forget why we were originally exiled from Israel.
Everyone's Leftward tilt!
ReplyDeleteIt would evidently seem that RAS and RSK are united, with R Dovid Feinstein and
Malkiel, they have found a way to create "unity" and not deal with excoriating
RSK as this blog have been doing about the "heter nussuin", by instead ganging up on....the
MOs instead!
You see, once a rabbi is a member of the exclusive Moetses club, he
gains the papal infallibility of so-called "daas torah" and he cannot be
reprimanded, demoted or attacked really. So from time to time there are flareups
and this Moetzes member will maneuver against another Moetzes member, but at the end
of the day, they are all glued in place and cannot be touched by accusations
from the past or present.
So therefore the anti_RSK people lose big time on this anti-RSK
jihad, and all their protests against RSK are no better than the past protests against
RAS, so anyone can tell (if they think about it for a minute) how it feels to know the truth, to try to uphold it, and
to be scorned and marginalized for daring to speak up for the truth! It's not
fun, I know, but hopefully the anti-RSK folks can take it!
By the way, in North America, most MOs are more like
the Avi Weiss radicals than the old-time YUers. They have become the new Reform
while the Agudists have become the new "MOs" and the ultra-Charedim and Chasidim
are the "just plain frum folks"! The world has
been moving LEFTWARD for a long time now! Perhaps on the surface it may seem
like a so-called rightward tilt, but it's only superficial and external, people
wearing darker clothing and longer beards and payos, but in reality, the Earth
and the reality on the ground and real life has shifted leftward, like everyone else, moving a few big
notches into being something they were never before.
“Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah: Open Orthodoxy is not
ReplyDeleteOrthodox Judaism”
I agree, of course, but saying it like this looks bad. We need the resolution of the Mendel Epstein et
al first. So many of Rabbi Weiss’
supporters are involved with the crimes of Mendel Epstein et al. After the sentencing, surely, Rabbi Weiss
and his supporters will do a rethink. if
Rabbi Weiss and his supporters will walk back on some of their more
controversial anti-men stuff, could be Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah could tolerate
them.
The proclamation has very little to do with those issues. It has to do with their positions on the historical truth of the Torah and the concept of Torah MiSinai.
ReplyDeleteAmi Magazine is in favor of open orthodoxy.
ReplyDeleteTamar Epstein a married woman getting remarried without obtaining a get from her husband is open orthodoxy.
Well said rabbi again, how pretty the world looks with shain being the only one talking sense
ReplyDeleteThose who "differ with Maimonides" are differing with an explicit Gemara in the beginning of chelek. It is a mystery to me why some people continue to "blame" the rambam for this. Though I think we can figure out why.
ReplyDeleteAgain with RAS. Is this a fetish of yours?
ReplyDeleteIn the past a Rosh Yeshiva from Torah Vodass has been a member of the Moetzes. Through Rav Pam zt"l. Is there any reason the current Moetzes doesn't include a R"Y from Torah Vodass? Are any of the current R"Y serving in the same capacity in the yeshiva, as R"Y, as Rav Pam was?
ReplyDeleteAlso, hasn't Mir (Brooklyn) also in the past had a R"Y serving on the Moetzes?
Who from Torah V'daas is eligible - Rabbi Reisman? Thankfully, Rabbi B doesn't stand a chance...
ReplyDeleteWhy wouldn't they add Rabbi B or Rabbi R?
ReplyDeleteRaP will give you a rundown. Enjoy! I apologize for my previous response on this.
ReplyDeleteThe core difference and issue with open orthodoxy as opposed to "traditional" orthodoxy is not any specific halachic or hashkafic deviation; that alone would not write them out of the fold- it would raise ire but not total rejection (see chabad for example).
ReplyDeleteThe real underlying fault line is in the approach to religion- do I say what can I get from Judaism or do we say what can I give. In other words am I subservient to religion or is it subservient to me. Open orthodoxy has taken the latter approach which is a radical and fundamental departure from the way Judaism was practiced for all of history. And that is why mainstream Orthodox Jews have such a visceral to rejection of them.
No we don't - just because I can't tell you the exact height at which a hill becomes a mountain, doesn't mean that the word "mountain" has no meaning. When borderline cases present themselves we can deal with them then. Do I need to know the Halachic status of an Androginos before I use the term "man" and "woman"?
ReplyDeletePlease clarify what Gemara you are referring to. This would mean a Gemara that lists those particular 13 ikkarim as the deifinition of Torah-true theology, absent the belief of which one is a kofer.
ReplyDeleteThe Roshei Yeshiva of the Mirrer Yeshiva and the Bais HaTalmud Yeshivos in Brooklyn have traditionally avoided getting involved in "politics" and in recent memory have refused to serve of the Moetzes of Agudas Yisroel of America. The late Rav Shmuel Birenbaum ZT"L RY of the Mirrer Yeshiva was asked many times to join, but he always refused saying he had no time for that kind of stuff because he needed time to learn!
ReplyDeleteAs for Rav Yisroel Belsky (what's with all the hush-hush, he is famous and can take it) he has been kept off the Moetzes mainly by the objections of RAS because, hey guess what, they are so similar, and in fact Rav Belsky is actually a genuine Posek and Av Bais Din while RAS is not! Rav Belsky basically upholds all the Shitas of Rav Moshe Feinstein, including having once given a "heter nissuin" about ten or so years ago, over which Rav Aron Schechter went ballistic and wrote a vociferous letter against Rav Belsky.
To the one below who asks if I have a "fetish" over RAS, the answer is no I do not, I just have an awareness, that you seem to be lacking, that Rav Aron Schechter is the the dominant voice within the Moetzes, he is actually the most powerful Moetzes member, most people know this, so it is important to focus on him because he is at the center of all the important decisions and moves in the American Aguda world, and in organizations such as the Jewish day school organizations Torah Umesorah, and he has great influence over Malkiel Kotler of BMG-Lakewood who does not make a move without consulting with RAS. So it is just a reality we all have to accept and live with, it is not an on "obsession" by an means!
As for Rav Yisroel Belsky the current main Rosh Yeshiva of Torah Vodaas, his power and prestige are now sky-high in the Litvish Aguda and Yeshiva worlds simply because, aside from his standing as a huge Torah scholar, his BILLIONAIRE son in law Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz from California is now probably the biggest supporter of Litvish Yeshivos in Israel and America.
Recently there seems to have been a thawing of relations between RAS and Rabbi Belsky given that their names appeared together prominently on the huge full page ads in the Charedi and Orthodox papers, supporting to recent "Shabbos Project" and, even more noteworthy, lo and behold, Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz agreed to have his name on the main dinner committee for the next huge Chaim Berlin dinner in December. this can only mean that behind the scenes they are preparing the Oilam for a rapprochement and to even expect, logically, that Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz would not be lending his name to Chaim Berlin's fundraising efforts if as a quid pro quo (a deal for deal) RAS drops his objections to Rav Belsky being on the Moetzes. It is hard to see any other type of coutcome from all this kissing-and-making-up!
So things they are a changin', and given that Rav Belsky and his son law work together and are very close, it cannot be long that Rav Belsky will be let on to the Moetzes whether people like it or not or like him or not. That's how it seems right now.
See below, can you really tell the difference between Rav Aron Schechter and Rav Yiroel Belsky?:
RaP,
ReplyDeleteI very much appreciate your lengthy and incisive comments (as I did those of your alter-ego CBT) and I thank you for your continued posting.
However, on this point I think you are way off-base. To appoint Belsky (defender of pedophiles and of Dovid Weinberger) to the Moetzes would be a major PR nightmare for Aguda. The Moetzes is already caught in a downward spiral in terms of their influence, authority and prestige. To appoint Belsky would be an absolute death-knell.
I would also add that RAS was not the only one who went ballistic over Belsky's heter in the S case, I believe that letter was also signed by HRH"G RSFC.
I think RaP is on target regarding Rav Belsky's future potential membership on the Moetzes. Gedolim have disagreements all the time between each other. Even voiciferous disagreements. Even hard, loud, disagreements with much language and denounciation. But they are all l'sheim shamayim. They don't lose respect for each other (other than in the rarest of rare cases such as R. Emden/R. Eibshutz - but those are the cases where it is less than once in a lifetime.)
ReplyDeleteAnd Rav Belsky is accepted as a godol b'yisroel. Period. Despite whatever disagreements there were in the historical past. Yes, its true the online crowd here doesn't like R. Belsky's positions on divorce and gittin issues. But the online loudmouths don't get a vote on whose a godol or who is added to the Moetzes.
I was not referring to all 13 ikkarim just the authorship of Torah.
ReplyDeleteסנהדרין צ'ט עמוד א:
תניא אידך כי דבר ה' בזה זה האומר אין תורה מן השמים ואפילו אמר כל התורה כולה מן השמים חוץ מפסוק זה שלא אמרו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא משה מפי עצמו זהו כי דבר ה' בזה ואפילו אמר כל התורה כולה מן השמים חוץ מדקדוק זה מקל וחומר זה מגזרה שוה זו זה הוא כי דבר ה' בזה
he is right about the leftward tilt. It is obvious. A generation ago, the [un]Jewish Observer was mevazeh Rav Soloveitchik and YU in general. This process began at some point when RYBS left Agudah , but in those days some Hareidim boycotted YU, although the greatest gedolim like Rav Henkin and Rav Feinstein would still visit.
ReplyDeleteThe situation today is that there are no more great rosh yeshivas in America, and hence they respect Rav Herschel Shachter instead of mocking him (i dont refer to the NK nut types).
American Hareidim do their own Yeshiva + University, and when they come to Israel it is obvious they are more meikel than their Israeli cousins. They also support Israel, and are often clean shaven.
1: Do you think that this Gemara holds that the opinion in the Gemara that Yehoshua wrote the final 8 pesukim of the Torah is in the category of כי דבר השם בזה?
ReplyDelete2: The answer to the previous is obviously no, and the reason is that the focus of this Gemara is the point of the contrast between מן השמים on the one hand and מפי עצמו on the other. Accordingly, saying, as the Ibn Ezra alludes, that there were other pesukim added later based on divine guidance would not contradict this Gemara either.
A careful reading of the Rambam in Mishne Torah may lead to the same conclusion.
That's hogwash. The Jewish Observer article on RJBS's petira was anything but mevazeh anyone. Other than in the vividly imaginative minds of the hard MOs. The article was very respectful. But the MOnics didn't think it praised RJBS to the hilts enough so they wrote articles saying it was mevaze him.
ReplyDeleteRav Aharon Kotler ZT'L, and Rav Schneur ZT'L after him, would under no circumstances even walk into YU. Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT'L also, when he came to America in the '30s, was invited to speak in YU, and he refused to even walk in to the place. Rav Shneur didn't go into YU for the funeral of a close talmid. He had his driver circle outside until they came out. Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy'd declined an invitation to speak in YU when he was in America. See this letter referencing YU from Rav Elchonon during the war where he writes its better to remain in physical danger in wartorn Europe than to be brought to the US by YU at where the students will in spiritual danger.
Rav Elchonon's position was a tragic failure. Rav Kotler also had this position until it dawned on him what was really going on. he ended up working with Reform and being mechalel Shabbes in order to save lives.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I've seen that letter, however, I am curious where there is a halachic basis to such a claim (of course it would be foolish of me to imagine that Rav Wasserman H'YD did not know halacha well enough to make such a statement).
No, it most certainly not a failure. Rav Elchonon hy'd specifically and directly in the letter said that it was better to face a physical risk of death than to face a spiritual risk of death. IOW, better to die al kiddish Hashem, Rav Elchonon said, than to for one's life to be saved by YU but turned into a living apikorus by the heresy spread and taught by the university.
ReplyDeleteIt was never a matter of working with Reform or goyim to save lives. That's okay according to anyone. The issue was enrolling into YU, which was a spiritual danger due to the apikorsus taught - that would have been required enrollment in order to be saved by YU. So Rav Kotler's pikuach nefesh activities are not relevant to this discussion or point.
Controversy goes with leadership. A leader who is not controversial in some way, is, what exactly? There is an old saying that Rav Hutner would like to tell over whenever someone would point out something negative resulting from "good" actions or some sort of fallout, and he would say, "az mehakt holtz fallen shpalten" -- "if you chop wood, splinters go flying"! There is an even sharper vorth I heard in the name of Rav Aron Kotker ZT"L, that once a boy was going crazy from too much learning in yeshiva and someone came to complain, maybe a relative or family friend, to point out that Torah learning was being "harmful" -- and Rav Aron Kotler was totally unfazed and unmoved and replied back "lernen heist milchamta shel Torah, und in yeder milchama fallen korbonos" -- "Torah learning is called 'war of Torah' and every war there are casualties"!
ReplyDeleteThus just take a look at each name on this list of Moetzes members and virtually with each one, the more prominent they are the more controversy trails them or they generate controversy. Such as, Rav Aron Schechter has had lots of controversy around him, this blog has mentioned and listed so many that I will not repeat them again; Rav Levin from Chicago was connected with the Meisels family and he has escaped subpoenas to testify in abuse cases by a hair; the Novominsker Rebbe deso not oppse the Boro Park eruv he lived in even though his predecessor as head of the Moetzes Rav Moshe Feinstein fought his whole life against big city Eruvin; Rav Feldman has ignored pleas to fire rebbeim accused of pedophilai on Ner Israel; Rav Malkiel Kotler got a heter meah rabbanim to remarry, when no one one would even hire a first grade rebbe who came with such personal baggage not to mention stuff that goes on in Lakewood that he should be speaking out against and doesn't; Rav Dovid Feinstein defended his brother Reuvain's grandosn in withholding a get for a long time that made the Dodelsons go crazy and wage a rampage against the world; and of course now Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky and this mistake he has made which he is not about to go back on no matter how much anyone shouts because the dye is cast and choose who you want to go by in this sordid affair.
so the bottom line is that the "perfect Gadol" does not exist because, hey, the perfect human human being does not exist.
So Rav Yisroel Belsky will fit right in, because at one point or another virtually every Gadol has defended one sort of pervert or another! And they will all tell you that they are right and yoiu are wrong! By the Chasidim they don't even get into this type of discussion, because a pervert can be convicted and jailed but they will still support him no matter what the witnesses say against him. Such is frum life, it is brainless at many times, like arguing with a parents whose child is misbehaving but the parents insist that their little darling can do "no wrong"!
There is an old saying that "a community deserves the rabbi it gets" and likewise it is also true that an Oilem gets the Gedolim it deserves. Standards are lower all around for everything, even for getting on the Moetzes!
So there is no reason to keep someone of Rav Yisroel Belsky stature and influence off the Moetzes because of petty stuff (at least that is how current frum society looks at it, per hiskatnu hadoros) that is trivial in the greater scheme of things!
Have a great Shabbos!
RaP your examples are not examples
ReplyDeleteSorry RaP you don't know what is going on and what you know you don't understand.
ReplyDeleteOh where to start, forget it I will only say a few things.
ReplyDeleteRav Belsky is not what people make him out to be. While there is no doubt that
he is more posek than many on the Moetzes, he would have been better off not allowing
the printing of his a teshuva sefer, as it shows him up to be very middling at
best. Some of your other facts are simply wrong, but I will leave this for another time.
Oh, I should add, that this comment is totally off base, “the
ReplyDeleteNovominsker Rebbe does not oppose the Boro Park eruv he lives in even though
his predecessor as head of the Moetzes Rav Moshe Feinstein fought his whole
life against big city Eruvin. ” First of all, the Novominsker rebbe signed
on the kol korei kneged the BP eruv. Second of all, RMF allowed an eruv in Kew
Garden Hills, Queens, and Oak Park Detroit. So much for RMF fighting his whole life
against big city eruvin.