One of the major signs of an abusive husband is his attempts to isolate his wife from all other support and normal human interaction - and to make her totally dependent on him - as well as to destroy her self-esteem and independent judgment and initiative. [As I have repeatedly stated, Dr. Schlesinger is welcome to present his side of the story.]
Dr. Schlesinger has been obsessed with the idea that Beth is mentally ill - post-partum depression and paranoid schizophrenia - despite repeated evaluations that she is not and has not been suffering from mental illness. As recounted in a previous post, he arranged with a psychiatrist that had never met Beth to certify that she was schizophrenic and then Michael called the police to have her committed by falsely claiming that he was a psychiatrist. However this plot failed when the police psychiatrist said Beth was not mentally ill and Michael was kicked out of the apartment and custody was awarded to Beth. This was not his only attempt to get Beth certified as mentally ill as well as to spread rumors in the community that she was mentally ill. He also successfully got a therapist to write an invalid report for the custody trial indicating that she had mental health issues. (That report has been shown to be invalid by subsequent evaluations by recognized therapists.)
However this post is about another attempt to confirm his diagnosis that she was mentally ill - which involved Beth's friends betraying her.
What follows are Beth's notes of the confession of "Janet" whom she once viewed as a good friend who was after consultation with Michael and some of his supporters - agreed to trick Beth into seeing a psychiatrist who was expected to declare her mentally ill. I had asked "Janet" yesterday to publicly reveal her identity as a means of doing teshuva for her betrayal of Beth. However "Janet" now denies that she betrayed Beth and claims the rest of the account is not what happened. She does acknowledge tricking Beth into going to a psychiatrist to be evaulated for post-partum depression. In fact even after the psychiatrist said Beth was not mentally ill (post-partum depression) "Janet" actively spread false rumors in the Jewish community that Beth was suffering from depression. I have the letter from the psychiatrist saying that Beth did not suffer from post partum depression.
you've got a real best seller on your hands, DT.
ReplyDeleteOne inconvenient thought, however, might be that Beth really was exhibiting signs of heavy depression and incapacity to mother her newborn twins, and thus a good friend would be so easily persuaded to "betray" her that she'd go along with Dr. S's attempts to have her see a psychiatrist.
I repeat that I have no idea, like so many here, who's really the bad guy, bust suspect that alot of huff and puff is being manufactured in order to make a splash. I applaud your calls for the father and his community connections to be more compassionate on the mother, but I'm very wary of your near-vigilantism.
Here are some more inconvent thoughts for you to consider:
Delete1) why was rabbi biderman behaving in a corrupt manner to help the fathers custody case?
2) why did willinger feel the need to write a report that was so wrong it has been discredited by so many independent psychologists?
3) why was konstanze thau involved at all?
4) why has the father or any of his supporters not responded to any of the claims of corruption?
The only explanation is that the case is corrupt and the father has no defense other than to keep quiet.
If the truth was on his side, why did he resort to so many corrupt strategies, some of which, have contributed to a massive reputational hit on chabad worldwide?
The psychiatrists who have examined Beth disagree. If in fact Beth was depressed etc the normal thing would be simply for her husband to discuss it with her. There really was no justification for what was done.
DeleteYY I am glad to see you are maintaining your studied and intelligent neutrality
I'm going to jump in here as a husband who has had a wife with moderate to severe post partum depression(PPD). PPD does not inherently incapcitate a parent, in can manifest in numerous ways. I say this to say that even if Beth were to have suffered PPD in some form, that is not an automatic reason to invalidate here as a caregiver for her children. She wasn't suffering PPD, but even if she were that alone should not be sufficient grounds to separate her from her children or her children from her.
DeleteI have to say, that I am still uncomfortable claiming that an entire Jewish community is corrupt. Especially as even Beth has said that some Rabbis have offered their help in various ways. I can see how under the right set of circumstances, given a manipulative enough husband, parts of the community could be fooled into thinking it was acting in the children's best interest. Let us not demonize an entire community without first giving them a fair and full hearing.
That is not to minimize Beth's feelings of betrayal, or grief. However, consider it from the community's perspective for a moment. You have the Schlessinger family, apparently pillars in the community, saying(falsely) that Beth is ill. You have the Austrian court system that has agreed with them from top to bottom. The idea that the entire court system is corrupt(or simply wrong) is hard for many to fathom. They have probably never seen the evidence in Beth's favor. To my knowledge this is the first blog that has set it with the various documentation in earnest...
Perhaps when the smoke settles the Vienna community will deserve our scorn, as perhaps many of the people that Beth thought were friends. But just as likely perhaps not. Perhaps they too were victims in Michael Schlessinger's schemes... I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
I, like YY, am maintaining a studied and intelligent neutrality.
DeleteI will not know who is right until and unless the father presents his version of events. So far we've only heard her side exclusively.
I do respect his right to choose not to engage in a public spat with his ex over the details or who is right, as he has the right to privacy and a right to maintain a private profile.
I, will maintain a studied and intelligent neutrality, unlike SZ and YY.
DeleteYou see, SZ, YY and the other supporters of the father have for a long time been attacking the mother in a most horrible way. Yet, they do it anonymously. They do it in public.
They attack, while claiming that they aren't responding.
The emperors new cloths at it worst.
SZ,
Deletemost abusers are hiding the way Dr. Schlessinger is doing now. They are using their money, power and connection to hurt the person they are divorcing and of course Dr. Schlessinger knew that he could only hurt Beth over the children. He is not raising his children the way Beth would have done it. He is letting Asian nannies take care of the twins, and the boys are both showing signs of neglect and/or abuse.
I disagree with you. In a case like this, he has absolutely no right of privacy and to maintain a private profile. His children are suffering and if he truly would love them, he would tell his side of the story, so everybody could make an opinion about where the truth is. To me it's clear. Beth is fighting so hard for the boys. Dr. Schlessinger is just fighting to be able to hide the abuse and to maintain his power. If he would have loved his children, he would never have taken them away from their mother. Never.
Oddly the mother's supporters here post anonymously and then criticize anyone who isn't a diehard supporter of the woman, like they are, for also posting anonymously.
Delete@Mikw N. you are right - the more relevant distinction between the two sides is that Dr. Schlesinger's supports no longer even attempt to justify his behavior - while the outrage is growing amongst Beth's supporters. In fact all they do is repeat the mantra "he won so Beth should give up", "if you read the court decision you see why he got custody" Both are rather circular arguments justify the correctness of the decision because the decision was made in his favor.
DeleteI am still waiting for one of his supporters actually justifying Dr.Schlesinger taking custody away so that the twins can be raised by two Fillipinos instead of their mother. It is clear that Beth has no mental health problems and she is a competent mother as well as having a close relationship with her sons. How can two Fillipinos better than that?! What is the justification of denying Beth overnight visits with her kids?
To Rabbi Michael Tzadok,
DeleteI sense you are excruciatingly trying to see some good in the Vienna jewish community.
It is very upsetting to see most of a jewish community, except of course, maybe the odd person, persecuting a young girl who is from outside Vienna. (She was the new kid on the block).
I do not think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
They have seen the evidence in Beth's favour.
They are very well aware circumstances were falsified against her.
They live in Austria, they have Germanic mentality
Mike N.,
DeleteYou stated: "Oddly the mother's supporters here post anonymously and then criticize anyone ... for also posting anonymously."
Here is the difference. I, and others, are not deceitfully claiming to be neutral, while trying to attack the mother as some sort of schoolyard bully attempt at justifying the father's behavior.
We are clear and forthright.
These others are trying to imitate Kolev's tactic, just they are using it in an attempt to destroy two precious children ("Mi shyesh beyado limchos, v'lo micha..." Here it is worse, as they are actively pursuing this!).
Yes, I am calling you out on that.
If you believe you are correct, then just clearly explain yourself - without sheker and deceit.
They have seen the evidence in Beth's favour.
DeleteHow exactly is that? We haven't seen the evidence in Beth's favor. My reason from moving from neutral to supporting the young lady is because I personally know, and also trust, Rav Eidensohn, and he says he has seen the evidence.
Never mistake how much one vindictive person can turn a community against someone, so long as they are a trusted pillar of the community.
TC:
DeleteThe mother's supporters are coming here anonymously pretending to be outside unbiased observer who only "happen" to agree with the mother.
You are being hypocritical in criticizing anyone who agrees with the father when you have no such qualms with those agreeing with the mother.
RMT: RDE needs to present the evidence to the public. The public cannot rely on his word that he's seen evidence that remains unpublished.
DeleteI'm writing much later, Rabbi Tzadok, after reading the dialogue between Beth and her "friend" "Janet". "Janet", as we have been told by Rabbi Eidensohn, was once a good friend of Beth's. And according to Beth, she confessed to having played this foul trick on her - collaborating (an unpleasantly familiar word) with the husband to get her to go to a psychiatrist when she thought she was heading for a baby clinic. As Beth had neither ever been mentally ill nor had a child before, it was logical that she had no idea why members of the Jewish community or Vienna public went to ESRA and must have been very easy for her friend to deceive her into going there at the husband's instigation - in the sleep-deprived state she was in and suffering from the treatment she got from an unsupportive man (let's not count bathing the boys, etc - I mean emotional support, which it's clear she didn't get). From your wise comment, Rabbi, regarding "one vindictive person", I can well imagine that "Janet" is a woman (mother of 6, I read a while back) who is well known and greatly respected in the Vienna community but made a catastrophic mistake that she is now having the audacity to deny. The fate of these poor children - separated from their loving, competent mother - is the direct consequence of her well-meaning but absolutely out-of-place intervention! She was not the only one of course - Judge Konstanze Thau clearly played an equally ignominious role with her illegal involvement with the judge. These two women, trusted pillars of the community, quite obviously succeeded in turning almost all of it against Beth and her children. Shame on you both!
DeleteMike N.
DeleteYou stated: "The mother's supporters are coming here anonymously pretending to be outside unbiased observer who only "happen" to agree with the mother."
Have you forgotten that SZ wrote "I... am maintaining a studied and intelligent neutrality.
"I do respect his right to choose not to engage in a public spat with his ex over the details or who is right, as he has the right to privacy and a right to maintain a private profile."
But he and his sympathizers are doing just that! There have been hundreds, yes HUNDREDS!, of vile and disgusting comments posted by his sympathizers on this blog that viciously attacked the mother.
I am calling you out for this double deception. One, claiming to be neutral, when in fact you are not. Two, claiming to "not engage in a public spat" while doing engaging in wicked public character assassination attempt.
Do you have a way of answering this? Is an attempt to throw some clean mud at me going to justify you?
What did you say about hypocrisy?
TC: Again, you are attributing to the father's supporters what in fact the mother's supporters are doing here. You have it backwards.
DeleteMike N you remind me of a comment regarding measuring brain waves as a means of ascertaining the significance of a person's thoughts.
Delete"It is like describing the nature of manufacturing in a factory by observing the amount and frequence of smoke coming out of their chimney"
Your obsessive focus on who is making the most negative statements is really unhelpful to resolving any issues. How about making some constructive suggestions as to how Beth can be reinstated as the twins' mother instead of the 2 fillipinos?
DT: I don't see you making that same comment to the mother's supporters commenting here with unconstructive and unhelpful shrill yelling and shirking.
DeleteIt is a shame that Beth is finding it necessary to prove that she has been a victim abuse in this way, but who can blame her?
ReplyDeleteWhy should she stay quiet and let people believe things about her that
are not true.
If she stays quiet she will remain a victim and her children will remain, if
not physically abused, definitely
psychologically abused!
This situation does not need to continue. There is no good reason
why the father should not give Beth
lots more access to her children
He obviously doesn't care about his dirty washing being washed in public.
He cannot be protected for ever. The truth about him is slowly coming out and will continue to do so.
How can a man behave in such a selfish manner to the detriment of his children?
In this case I cannot see how neutrality is either intelligent or right. By remaining neutral, you are allowing these children to grow up without their mother in their lives. That is a big responsibility.
ReplyDeleteThe correct approach is to call/email people in Vienna to get their versions of the story.
Silence only encourages the oppressor. I find it very disappointing that someone who is allegedly trained as a dayan is happy to sit back and not seek out the facts for himself.
The Austrian judiciary has been corrupted for years by knostanze thau ('the Jewish judge') so the Austrian Jews are hardly surprised at all the judges throwing the case in such a blatantly corrupt manner. We have already seen how the whole community is corrupt from Miriams blogpost.
To get an idea of a corrupt Jewish community, look no further than Williamsburg or Lakewood. It is not so unusual.
Just google and you'll find Konstanze Thau accused at least a couple of times of abuse of her position of authority (in German). Although one story (about an old lady and an Austrian bank) sounds extremely credible, it seems Judge Thau has never been convicted ("Vienna rules" again?). Why not????
DeleteRabbi Tzadok you are right. Even if Beth suffered from any form of depression, why was she not helped firstly by her husband?
ReplyDeleteMichael went out on the night of the boys Brit to a party leaving Beth to cope with two new borns. When she
asked her husband to assist because
the boys were sore and distressed, he, the father and a doctor, just expected Beth to get on with it, whilst he went out enjoyed himself.
The court sited the fact that Beth did not know how to insert suppositories into newborns backsides as a criticism of her. We in England only very rarely
use suppositories. We would never
dream of using them after a brit when
baby boys are sore in that area. Why
did the father even give this advice and
why did he only give advice and did not return home immediately to help Beth to comfort their children. Why did he even leave them in the first place?
What was more important than the children and supporting his wife who had just gone through the ordeal of
giving birth?
Rabbi Tzadok would you have left your wife in such circumstances?
Would I have left my wife immediately after a Brit? No. I'm a mohel, and was one before my first son was born. I came home with my wife and children immediately after the Brit, and except for davening, thats where I stayed until after day three when the bandages all come off. Lot's of things can go wrong, and I wanted to be on hand should they.
DeleteEven aside from that, the first 24hrs after a Brit is the hardest on a child. While I guess suppositories would, and could work, I'm not sure how you would insert them without aggravating the wound. I recommend to parents a type of oral acetaminophen called Novimol. Further the diaper needs to be changed every hour to prevent infection for the first 24hrs. There is no way a parent can do that by themselves, and be capable to parent.
That is a lot of words to say "no".
So it seems outside of his apartment he is able to charm others, and persuade them to harm and double cross Beth.
ReplyDeleteJust look at those amazing smiling teeth in the above photo, they could charm anybody, as they once did Beth!!
Turn those teeth into a hating snarl, and you sure would shudder!!
What I do not understand again is, that if a police psychologist was witness to Michael Schlesinger trying to section Beth under false pretences, why was this not reported to the Medical Council in Vienna. Surely any Medical Council would see this man is not fit to be a doctor. All so bizarre. We have a rabbi and a doctor who act with impunity.
Leah, do you really want the level of these discussions about the merit of each position to descend into nasty remarks about the husband's teeth??
DeleteRabbi Tzadok
ReplyDeleteI understand that the judge Suzanne Gottlicher looked up on the Internet regarding the use of suppositories and
the fact that Beth could not follow
Michael's instructions to insert them
into the boys thats first night after their Brit, when she was left all alone with
two screaming tiny babys, who were naturally in a lot of discomfort after
their ordeal, Michael beratted Beth for
ddisturbing him whilst he was at a party enjoying himself and called her
stupid!
This was one of the reasons the judge
gave in her decision that Beth was not
a capable mother!
Since I first became a supporter of
Beths and she told me about this, I
have discussed the subject with Molim
Doctors and Rabbis lawyers and judges in England, who
are in agreement with you. Rabbi Tzadok
This is one of the reasons that we in England feel that Beth and the boys
have not been treated fairly by the
father, the secular courts and theJewish Community. How can they
side with a father who behaved in this
way. This is only one example!
This is one of the reasons why our British Board of Deputies made their ststemen that this has been a misccarriage of justice, a stain on Austria and the British Government got involved!
We do not believe this can be stated as a reason by the Judge for Michael Schlesinger to be given custody!
What happened to the boys beautiful pearly teeth? Why are so many
missing at the ages of two, three and four. Highly irregular and suspicious!
What else is Michael doing to harm his
sons?
I think the underlying problem is, that while courts in general have a bias in favor of the mother getting custody, they also have a bias in favor of locals. In this case, the father was a local, the mother a foreigner. It is quite frequent, not only in Austria, but in any European countries, that in this case, the father gets custody.
DeleteI don't know whether this is a legal issue (they do not want the children, who have their nationality, to be forced to leave the country if the mother decides to go back hoe) or a question of "greed for children", i.e. they do not want children to leave the country as a matter of principle.
It is a fact that the parent susceptible to move the children away from the country where the divorce takes place has worse chances of getting custody than the local parent.
As far as the ceremony for transitions is concerned, I suppose that Beth is not completely innocent, since I suppose this was made after she caused a few stirs in the house where her ex lives...(as she writes herself)
Family courts around the world, rightfully, want children to remain in the locality where the parents raised them while married - if after the divorce one of the parents will remain in the locality of the marriage. This is because it is wrong for a parent to move to a far away city or land, away from the other parents, thus separating the children with a great distance from one of the parents. Thus courts will favor the parent who chooses to remain in the original city of marriage/
DeletePatience,
DeleteChange moniker, rehash and repeat dis-proven arguments. When that fails, then just .. change moniker, rehash and repeat dis-proven arguments.
You state: "As far as the ceremony for transitions is concerned, I suppose that Beth is not completely innocent..."
You've been through this many times. The father refuses to do the handover in Rabbi Eisenberg's house. There is no excuse for this.
The father also insists, that under all circumstances, the mother should pay 50 Euro for each time she sees them. Again, there is no excuse for this.
What was the point you were making and how is it relevant to the conversation on hand?
A little honesty, Mr. Patience.
P.S.
Would you now like to claim that these precious children, Yiddishe neshomos, are doing just fine under the fathers care, and that it's just how Hashem wants us to behave? You have done that before - several times. Again, please be honest.
What will it take to convince the good doctor to at least give his wife equity in raising their children?
ReplyDeleteHas anyone noticed even one iota of glacial shift or a scintilla of movement towards rapprochement from the good doctor of his family or their Viennese enablers?
Hardly!
One can just feel how those stubborn Viennese are gnarling and gnashing their teeth at the nosy busybody outside world as they dig in behind their larger's walls of shaming and intimidating into silence anyone who dares make even so much as a miniscule move.
They are airtight and watertight in their akshonus these Austrians. They are laughing and mocking at the efforts on the internet to dislodge them from their cruel complacency. But they need to take heed because the internet is all-pervasive and immune to blockades and stonewalling.
People are reading, watching unblinkingly as the proverbial birds high above circle a commotion down below trying to figure out what to make of it all.
Watching and waiting, posting on blogs and outing the guilty one by one, it is not pleasant and it is not meant to be. But it is unavoidable since how does one get to read the minds of a virtual hostage takers and his enablers?
Slowly, ever so slowly, the truth is hemorrhaging out for the record and it cannot be a pleasant experience to see all the kishkas of one's private life come into full focus on public display as a lasting cyber-record.
There are ways to end this Mexican stand-ff and it is up to the good doctor to decide how far he wants to see all the gory details of his private life become a public record forever.
His ex wife has obviously crossed that red line and is willing to reveal all, and with that she is willy-nilly dragging her ex husband down that path as well whether he likes it or not.
Some kind of scale is shifting somewhere...can you hear it?
I take issue with the fact that no one in Vienna called Beth to help.. When she first had her boys, I called her to help. She was vague, I sent my cleaning woman over who related that there were several other cleaning women there, all waiting around and doing nothing, Beth firing them all the time.
ReplyDeleteI understand that Beth was in pain, living a painful marriage, but let's be accurate.
thank you for your observation. Does that mean that you agree with or have no disagreement with the rest of the post?
Deletevienna might not know how much of the rest of Beth's story is accurate or inaccurate. She only knows the part she was involved in was inaccurate. Which demonstrates Beth is being less than truthful and cannot be trusted for anything she claims.
DeleteVienna, no one is fooled by your crazy allegations. Let's be accurate, let's have a blogpost from you under your own name.
DeleteIn what other ways have you attempted to help since then? Have you also been spreading around false rumors on the instructions of the father?
I think we need to hear your comment more precisely, vienna. It would not go down well in a court of law. You are writing (I presume deliberately) vaguely, just as you accuse Beth of having been at the time things were so hard for her - with twins, no proper sleep and an emotionally unsupportive husband. "Beth firing them all the time" - what is that supposed to mean? Nobody can be firing cleaning ladies "all the time". So the women were sitting there, like in a doctor's or dentist's waiting room? Hard to believe. WHO WERE the other cleaning women? Also sent by you?
DeleteI have met schizophrenics and I have met Beth. Paranoid schizophrenics do manage to get on planes to Israel and London and hold jobs down as teachers unless they are heavily medicated. And you can tell they are on medication as well as those who are not.
ReplyDeleteIn the 'good old days ' men would pronounce a woman mad if they wanted to get rid of her......
The last comment about schizophrenia was mine
ReplyDeleteVague!!!! I was vague about what I needed after the birth of one child- what planet are you on...
ReplyDeleteMichael and Tina his sister plotted an evil scheme to ensure beth had no place in her boys lives. Michael and Tina obviously wanted beth out the picture permanently. Tina presented to beth's friend at the time that she was concern about Beth and that she believed beth needed help and she wanted to help her. But in actual fact Tina successfully convinced the Jewish community that beth had mental health problems and could not cope looking after the boys. The whole community that were involved in beth's boys horrific and traumatising demise need to do a specific teshuvah (repentance) if they want hashem (g-d) to forgive them. They need to offer beth financial support and provide the factual evidence needed to expose the truth in court. They need to say in court that beth does not have any mental health issues and say who in the community conspired against her and who were the Perpetrators. They also need to welcome sammy and benji into their homes. They need to organise play dates with the boys and give them the love affection and sincerity that they desperately need. Which has been cruelly taken away from them in every way. Vienna community you need to right the wrong by doing all these things now. Act now. Open your arms and homes to benji and sammy. Save them before its too late.
ReplyDeleteDo you happen to know, liyba, why Tina, Beth's sister-in-law-to-be at the time, did not attend her brother's wedding? Was this part of the evil plan? And why did Michael even bother to marry her? So many questions...
DeleteThoughtful,
DeleteDid Tina not attend her own brothers wedding? Why not? What relevance are you suggesting this has? Please be honest, forthright, and clear.
I heard from the Alexander family that she did not attend. Isn't that surprising for a sister or sister-in-law? This looks to me like it's very relevant, especially as Rabbi E. received a disgustingly disrespectful mail in the past 24 hrs, from a person calling herself "Naomi Rosenzweig", who is considered by a number of posters to be Dr Schlesinger's sister Tina. As she even had the cheek to call him, a rabbi, a "son of a bitch" in German, not daring to write this rude and entirely inappropriate expression in English, one wonders about her sanity. And she is extra-close to those unfortunate twins, being their aunt and living in the same building, I believe. These pieces of the puzzle could fit together: Dr S. appears to have a sister who resented his marrying a lovely young Englishwoman to the extent that she didn't attend his wedding (but why this was so, we don't know), we have read that she and her mother, the children's grandmother, offered Beth practically no help with the boys when they were babies, so something must have been radically wrong with them. These are usually the first people to be offering assistance, especially to a stranger in town who had twins by c-section. Both the sister and the grandmother are divorced, leaving their children to grow up without their fathers. And on this blog, where the good Rabbi E., with his expert knowledge of cases like this, is attempting to clarify the situation in order to help the boys, there are people who are trying to sabotage his blog by posting obscenities and remarks which indicate a total lack of concern for the welfare of either the twins or their mother. The Schlesingers may be nobodies in the Vienna Jewish community but through their hatred and vengeance as displayed here, they have caused readers all over the globe to form an opinion of this community which is anything but positive.
DeleteIt is worth pointing out that even the most vile supporters of the father are not disputing this conversation above took place.
ReplyDeleteThey are obviously working very hard to think of other ridiculous ways to respond as they know they will be shown as liars like they were with "Sarah" if they are not careful!
Watch this space and you will see what I mean!!!
It is so sad to read this.
ReplyDeleteWhat's sadder is to realize how hard it is to admit a mistake and take action based upon that.
And the saddest part that the Viennese community has to realize is, that what goes around - eventually - does come around, if we don't properly seek to do teshuva.
"Janet" in this sad saga does deserve credit for what she has admitted to. It is superb step in the right direction.
(There's much more to yet be done...)
Perhaps it was not hired help that Beth needed, but good friends. Friends she could trust!
ReplyDeleteWhere are all you so called friends now. Do any of you ever invite Beth for a Shabbat meal?
We in London show true friendship and that is why we have chosen to support Beth by being real friends to her.
What are you doing Vienna?
Christian churches also show true friendship - there are some of us reading this blog and to say the least, we are horrified!
DeleteToo bad RDE/DT censors comments that demonstrate the inaccuracies of Beth's position. Perhaps this can be renamed the All Beth Blog.
ReplyDelete@Mike N. which posts have I censored that "demonstrate the inaccuracies of Beth's position." Have your posts been censored? What about Vienna? I didn't censor Sarah's comments but asked her for a guest post defending Rabbi Biderman - which she never wrote.. In fact there are many negative comments about Beth that I have allowed through which clearly show the general nastiness of Dr. Schlesinger's supporters - and have very little actual content..
DeletePerhaps we should rename Dr. Schlesinger's supporters as "The Table Pounders" after the advice that the experienced lawyer gave the new graduate. "If you have evidence present it. If you have no evidence just pound the table."
So Mike N. - where is the evidence to refute Beth's comments?
Being new I assumed missing comments were gone since there were newer ones posted. I see now they appear, so apologize for that assumption. As far as nastiness, by far and away Beth's supporters here have been extremely nasty to anyone who doesn't fully swallow Beth's position. The nastiness of the other side doesn't even come close to that. Especially when the mom's supporters are requested for evidence they lack of their many wild accusations.
DeleteThese are far from being wild accusations, Mike N (or Mike S maybe?). How about you being positive for a change? All your remarks are negative and critical of Beth's supporters. What have you got against them? She's an honest person and we are far more likely to believe her than a person like yourself who is so negative. What do you think of "Janet's" betrayal? Is she a friend of yours? I hope you both and all the others who have been so cruel to a mother and her helpless little children will have the nightmares you deserve.
DeleteThe tone of Beth's supporters comments are far more negative than the other side.
DeleteMike N - do you have anything of importance to say about the case? You say they are more negative - I say they aren't more negative. So what?
DeleteIt really is about as important as what you had for breakfast today.
It's funny how "thoughtful" made this attacking comment right here.
DeleteInterestingly, just 8 minutes before this comment, someone with the moniker "thoughtful" made a comment in support of the father. Just scroll up a bit. That "thoughtful" is claiming to be privy to some very private family information. Who might this thoughtful be?
Might it be a family member of Micheal? Might that family member have purposely planted this comment here, in a scheming way, to somehow justify Micheal's horrible behavior? Hmm.
No, True Chosid, am quite relieved not tol have been born into the Schlesinger family!
DeleteMike N we know who you are. You have no where to hide. Give benji and sammy back to beth otherwise you will find thousands of peoples turning up at your place of work in the hospital. We will be holding banners and we will be following you wherever you go. You have no where to hide. Give benji and sammy back to beth or you will experience the bitter result from your own evil actions.
ReplyDeleteGreat idea - liyba! We will be there! Up at Steinhof! It won't be the first time this place has been associated with cruelty and sadism to children.
Deletehttp://gedenkstaettesteinhof.at/en/exhibition/steinhof-vienna
Liyba - really now. What is all this hyped up snarly polemic getting anyone. It's just low grade lashon ha'ra. I understand you suspect Mile N to be the horrible father. But you really have no idea. Nevertheless you browbeat him with absurd demand os "Give back benju and sammy". They hare HIS kids too! This case is not about stealing. Perhaps many of those who are viscerally so sure that Beth is the martyred tsaddekes of a mother really believe that this is a fight against light and darkness, but let us not forget that this is a blog read by ANYone, including "Not Jewish" above, and such unsubstantiated mudslinging is not bringing anything good.
DeleteWhat we need is more information, as well as genuine support for a mother wanting to be more lovingly involved in the lives of her children. Everything else is a crass bandwagon...
Knowing the people who were foolish enough to help Schlesinger I can tell you that I'm embarrassed to be from the same nation...
ReplyDeleteChazal warned us from the impact that living with other nations may have on jewish communities and individuals.
In this case the 3rd reich have left a big mark on several Jews in Austria I'm sorry to say!
We are not all bad!! Don't blame us all for 5 women stupidity...
DeleteSomeone wrote some time back that these Schlesingers are descended from a famous rabbi (was it Rabbi Akiva Eger - Schlesinger Güns?) who was very close to the also famous Chatam Sofer: Well, if this is in fact true, how the family has come down in the world since those days..
DeleteChava, if you are not bad, why don't you send Beth an email of support? Why don't you email your Austrian Rabbi's and ask for them to call for a fair solution for the sake of the twins? If you don't do anything, then yes, you are bad!
DeleteSo people. Let's start a massive demonstration and walk proudly with our banners and show the world we mean business. Who's with me?
ReplyDeleteWe all need to ask for Beths forgiveness... I hope there was something we could do to turn back time.
ReplyDeleteI feel sick for hearing this Lashon Hora and not taking action.
At least you're able to confess your guilt at believing it, Benjamin. But what a pity you and so many others unquestioningly accepted what was nothing but a rumour. You'll need to ask for G-d's forgiveness too. And take some positive action, like inviting the boys around.
DeleteBenjamin, if you're serious, why don't you take up Liyba's offer of a demonstration. If you both don't want to reveal your identities, can I suggest you both privately email RDE and ask him to connect you both?
DeleteIt would be good to finally see some genuine support from Vienna instead of these ridiculous anonymous comments.
I just dont get how a whole community can be against a lovely caring mother. I admire Beth for her determination and the way she has conducted herself.
ReplyDeleteWhy cant the parents mediate. This whole story is a horror story and one you couldnt imagine yourself in.
I feel sorry the most for 2 beautiful children whose lives are in pieces.
I wish the father could see that they need 2 parents in their lives.. Not just once a week for a few hours. Their development would progress and they would be so much happier.. Do this for your children. Why are you punishing them??? Why?
May g-d watch over Beth and give her strength for the road ahead of her
Amen
Reading the confession brought tears to my eyes. Poor Beth.
ReplyDeleteYou could say these women behaved like the ancient Romans did.
They might as well have been sat in a roman amphitheatre with Beth stood in the middle, as they cheered on for the lions to be released.
What was the difference!!
The frightening thought here is, that these women were mothers, and probably have their hair covered by scarfs or sheitels.
So the moral of the story here is, don't think because a jewish woman who is seen to be keeping everything to the 'book,' is a good jew!!
Benjamin you don't need to ask for forgiveness ot do you. What do you think you have done wrong?
ReplyDeleteWe can't turn the clocks back
We can only move forward. What are you going to do yo help Beth and the boys?
Some good suggestions please!
I'm with you Liyba! And right-minded people in Vienna must join us as we stand with Beth. This sorry tale reminds us of the insiduous and enormously destructive power of lashon hara and motzi shem ra. Once the lie is out it is very difficult to reverse it, even if we ask forgiveness from the victim.
ReplyDeleteseems to me that the pro-Beth campaign is indulging in counter lashon ha'ra, to an extreme. Nothing good is going to come out of this. Those campaigning for a call to arms need to ask themselves where exactly they're coming from. Are you sure there's not a thrill tickling your belly to find some big bad guy to tar and feather? Are you sure there's not an extra dose of feminist rage at how (once in a blue moon) a man comes out of a bitter divorce with the upper hand?
DeleteOf course there are going to some to jump on me right away and seek to lump me with some amorphous group of horrendous, pseudo nazi supporters of a scheming doctor to rip a mother away from her children - but it just aint the case. I'm just a passive observer, from time to time, FULLY supportive of all efforts to get both sides to a table to genuine speak out, respectfully, what are the needs of their children and how they can help each other fulfill them.
But stop whipping up this tar and feathering campaign!!
Yy, you have a point. This has gone on far too long and is currently in no ones interests. We need to get both sides at the negotiating table and come to the best solution in the interests of the children.
Deleteyy, please write an (anonymous?) Guest post calling for a fair mediation to take place RIGHT NOW!!!!
YY What is your problem? Don't you want to see justice done?
ReplyDeleteWhat has happened to Beth and the
boys is unjust!
It's gone on for far too long with the doctor/father milking the situation by
rubbing Beth's nose in it! Depriving his
children of their mother in the way that
he has is a crime
No one can sit back and let this situation continue, neither can you.
Where will the boys be this Pesach? Where will Beth be?
Do they ever spend Shabbat and Yom Tov together. If not? Why not?
Get real!
yy Personally I don't know the husband and have never heard his side of the story. But I do know of other young Jewish women (one very close to me) who have suffered in strikingly similar ways to Beth - the 'frum' husband, the apathetic and complicit 'frum' community, blind and complicit rabbis, the mental illness strategy to get the children, the abuse, the lashon hara campaign, the use of influence, the betrayal by (life-long) 'friends' who had no backbone. It's a pattern and unless we stop this kind of abuse it will go on and on...Kol Hakavod to Beth for having the courage to expose it. And yes, it is a shame that non-Jews ahould be witness to all this....but maybe that's a wake-up call to all of us to start behaving with integrity and compassion towards a broken-hearted Jewish mother whose children were taken from her so cruelly. .
ReplyDeleteRR, you're talking from deep personal honestly, and not from hysterical political machinations. I appreciate that.
DeleteIt's perfectly reasonable for anyone who's familiar with "such" experiences to be upset and seek to contribute their voice to the campaign for the Jewish community to do their best to not let such a tragedy continue. Yet we have yet to get the full picture, and just because the father has yet to respond to any of us out here on some blog does not give us the right to rant and rave and drum up a witch hunt. We have NO real idea why he's not responding. Granted, it's frustrating and with Beth's heartwrenching pr campaign it's very tempting to beat our chests and say we demand justice. But the fact remains that WE ARE NOT THE JUDGES! We are not in the position, do not have all the info, clearly the wife is not some pure angel targeted for some antisemetic, anti-female, anti-post-partem, anti-British or anti-WHATEVER evil. For all we know, she MAY have been suffering some sort of very difficult emotional condition after the birth, and demonstrated to even some of her best friends that her care of the twins was severely lacking, and maybe even there was concern she whisk them away to England.
I really do NOT know, nor am I inclined to cast such aspersions as the likely scenario. But I do see it as a possibility, JUST like many here have been entertaining that the husband is a nefariously manipulative control freak, determined to totally eliminate his ex from their children's lives.
My cry is for humility and genuine shalom seeking on the part of those who are not in the position to judge. It might not whip up the same thrill as finding a Paroe to torture with makot, but it's the only honest task at hand.
I once heard from one of the famous Twersky Rabbonim (from Denver) that there's a midrash that explains why so many yidden died on the 9th plague (of darkness): Because after so many years of pent up rage and resentment against the evil Egyptians, they couldn't resist "giving it to them" when they were incapacitated by the darkness". But G-d said "I want you SIMPLY to go into their homes and take an inventory of what belongs to you, and then WAIT to see how I will instruct you to get them back, in a way that will not require you to descend to their level".
When G-d saw that there was a brewing segment of the yidden determined to mete out their own "justice", he quietly took them home.........
(for anyone wanting to continue this debate, I'm sorry that I will not be available until later tonight. PESSACH is coming!)
Deleteyy I find your judgmental comments in the name of being non-Judgmental truly fascinating.
Deleteyy, I think by reading the latest postings from women who worked for the Schlesingers and took care of the boys with the mother, you can now see what the situation at home was like after their births. I had a c-section twice and without an enormous amount of assistance from my husband and his dear mother, would never have survived all the feeding, milk-pumping and diaper-changing, sleep deprivation and stress associated with only one newborn, let alone two, who, as the au pairs have described, woke up constantly because the crying of the one upset the other. The reaction of mothers of twins or- God forbid - triplets or quads - to the stress of the new state of being the main caretaker of helpless, tiny humans has nothing whatsoever to do with real mental illness that has existed in a person in most cases for at least several years by the time they bear children. If Beth had been mentally ill prior to having the twins, her husband, especially as a medical graduate, would definitely have noticed it. And of course it was disproven in any case by Drs Leixnering and Wörgötter.
DeleteYY I am pleased to hear that you do have compassion. Are you Austrian? Do you live in Vienna. If not, where are you from?
ReplyDeleteDo I understand from what you are saying you would like to help Beth and tbe boys? who are victims of this awful situation?
yy Pesach is also coming for Beth, but for her the gates of freedom are locked. And for all of us as long as she and others like her are still suffering in Mitzrayim. A fair mediation could definitely be a solution with a mutually acceptable mediator. PG it should happen and I would advise Beth to have her lawyer present to advise her and to read the small print of any potential agreement.
ReplyDeleteThis woman "Janet" seems to be deprived of any kind of common sense and the whole community are a bunch of old gossips. I'm not surprised - thus it is with small communities. I don't like the way this blog is going in terms of helping Beth but I understand Beth's frustrations.
ReplyDeleteI am frustrated at this community. No- one can seem to be clear if their allegations against Beth is one of schizophrenia or post natal depression. But these are different diagnoses. They just seem to be a bunch of gossips and kleine steiteldik. What business is it of theirs to conjecture if someone has post natal depression? Real depression is when someone can't get out of bed and is in tears all the time and can't function.....
Is there any reason to assume this so-called "Janet" is nothing more than figment of Beth's very vivid imagination in her very public and bitter war against her ex?
ReplyDeletePerhaps Michael is also a figment of her imagination? Perhaps we are all part of her imagination and really of no independent existence?
DeleteI think if we work on it we can come up with even more "creative" excuses for not dealing properly with this custody case.
Did you not read "Janet's" confession, CV? Beth would never have given it to DT to post here if she had not had this genuine conversation with "Janet". She is not that kind of person. You should come to Vienna and talk to her and the people who know her - she does not invent conversations.
DeleteErev tov, erev Chometz cleaning someakh!
ReplyDeleteDT - It's not new that we find in one another "truly fascinating" ways. If you'd like to pt out where you find me judgmental - b'vakasha. The only agenda, so to speak, that concerns me, besides finding more ways to bring this loving Eema into the lives of her children, is to calm down the lets-find-a-bad-guy mania that so often gains traction in such threads. Lashon ha'ra, kina, and sinas chinam are some of chazal's major issues that I fear creep into this business.
Adam - I am American & Israeli, and yes am moved quite often by compassion. You may be interested to know that I recently completed a 2 year training program in Rabbinical Marriage Counseling. OF COURSE I 'd like to see the Eema and children find more and quality time together. As said, however, I'm very wary of the quick judgmentalism bent on taking the mother's side, and the vigilantism against the father.- especially before all the facts are in. I DO believe that no matter what, everything should be done to convey to the father and the community the importance of having the mother more in the kids' lives.
RR - I hear ya abt how challenging Pessach is going to be for Beth, and my heart goes out to her. But I imagine that if some of you had your way, you'd pull the kids from their father at this time - which would be equally devastating. I have no clear solution. But villifying and doing pr campaigns abt a case we can't fully understand does not seem to produce anything good ... except for some vicarious pressure release.
Has anyone thought of simply sending to Dr. S a collective letter appealing in a NON-AGGRESSIVE way for the mother to share some of the chag with her children?
YY, I don't want to offend, but I don't think you properly realise just what type of characters Beth is up against.
DeleteA 2 year Rabbinical Marriage Councelling Course would not touch the surface on this marriage.
YY you think a letter politely appealing to Dr S for Beth to share some of the chag with her children, I am afraid YY you are on another planet, these children need to be rescued, not shared.
I realize, Leah, that there are numerous ppl feeling the children need to be rescued, not shared. I don't share that sentiment. At least not at this point.
DeleteOn the other hand I'm sure it's extremely naive to think that a polite letter to the husband will make a dent. My working premise is this:
1. We are not in the position to judge, and certainly not play vigilantes, after a full court process has been completed, her "best friend" made efforts to have her diagnosed for mental illness, and that the main Rav in the community seems to be supportive of the father.
2. I agree with DT that there are a number of fishy elements in how the above transpired, and since its an awful tragedy if the mother is actually capable, competent an loving, to keep her at such a distance from her children, then those in the position to research this and bring the fact to light should do so.
3. Nevertheless, without any totally clear new info to indict the Austrian justice system and the local Rav, nor pronounce the husband unequivocally abusive, we need to act with great respect and trepidation in how we try to change the status quo.
4. Accordingly, the one proposal that comes to my mind (and I'm open to hearing others, as long as they don't smack of tar and feathering the "evil" father) is to appeal to his and his rabbis higher sensitivities. I'm certainly a nobody to do that. But perhaps if someone respected by both sides could circulate amongst rabbonim and caring Orthodox yidden a letter with hundreds of signatures, with a message of the need to simply find a way to get the mother 50 % back into the lives of her children - that may do something.
It's really an awful tragedy, as you suggest it could be in (2) above, yy. The mother, as described by people who worked in the Schlesinger household with her (see latest postings, although one has evidently had to be removed) and the boys, was both loving and competent, but suffered when the boys were small from terrible sleep deprivation. I think all of us who have lived with babies can relate to that. Mothers who have to get up several times during the night, have no chance to catch up in the daytime either because while the baby's sleeping the work has to be done. Fathers who have to leave for work early in the morning, yet live in a small apartment and suffer from the same disturbed sleep as the mother. It's a terrible tragedy that the father decided to collude with his friend, the psychiatrist from the hospital where he was working, and endeavour to have Beth committed - when she was only, as the ESRA doctors stated and we can read here, suffering from the stress of being a wonderful mother to her children and wife to her husband.
DeleteI don't publish anonymous comments
ReplyDeleteyy perhaps you would be good enough to draft a letter for us to send to the father and another to the community.
ReplyDeleteDo you really think by sending him letter, he will respond positively?
Adam - see my last comment above
DeleteSo come on Adam....have you drafted that letter yet for us all to sign. I will print it out and send it to Chabad house in Vienna to the Rabbi and to the manager of kindergarten the kids go to. Please step up and walk your talk. We support you and your "marriage counselling" ideas and are waiting to sign it already
ReplyDeletesorry that last comment was meant for yy not Adam. Daas Torah you can change my original text if you like and by the way I am so respecting your take on life and existence. It is obvious that your wealth of knowledge comes from a rich life filled with lots of personal experiences as opposed to reading books.
ReplyDeleteChevreh - if there is genuine interest in a letter that will be RESPECTFUL and NON-JUDGMENTAL, without agendas to support the claims of one side or another, and certainly not to insult or shame anyone, I'm very willing to do my part to convey the widespread concern among readers of this blog that every effort should be made to have both parents as much involved in the children's lives as possible.
DeleteWe could also note the variety of heated opinions flying around on the net, based on incomplete info, and that we are concerned about major chillul H' if the truth is not spelled out.
But it will have to wait until after Pessach.
Btw, my training was not merely a course, but it doesn't really matter. I'm just one yid who believes in the giant Mitzvah of maintaining the integrity of Jewish homes, before, during and even after the parents have become combatants.