אנו משכימים הקליפ הרשמי של עצרת המיליון by Daas-Torah
Friday, March 7, 2014
Huge Charedi Anti-Draft Rally paralyzes Jerusalem
This is a picture I took in front of the Convention Center. While it was a huge crowd - the real crowd was on Malchei Yisroel street which was primarily chassidic. When the crowd started to move there it was like battling a tidal wave to avoid being trampled.
אנו משכימים הקליפ הרשמי של עצרת המיליון by Daas-Torah
אנו משכימים הקליפ הרשמי של עצרת המיליון by Daas-Torah
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What was the bottom line? Is it true that senior rabbis spoke about the army?
ReplyDeleteit looks like these guys are having a good time - it would have been a good opportunity to have a badatz kosher frankfurter stand
ReplyDeleteThis picture was taken about 10 minutes before the program started with Mincha
DeleteWhy did you go?
ReplyDeleteMost people - including myself - went to show solidarity with the Torah observant community. I didn't hear many specific reasons given by friends and family - just the importance of unity around the idea of Torah study - especially when it has been under attack.
DeleteI heard or read on Bhol a very good vort given by R' Auerbach shlita on the subject. He said that if the gius were about defending the country or even equality of burden, they would not protest, but that it is an attempt to crush the yeshiva world. I am in agreement with this to a large extent - the gius seems to be a repressed anger dating back 30-50 years when tehre were real reasons for gius, whereas today, a sensible discussion with the Roshei yeshivot and gedolim on what the real manpower requirements of the army are , and the availability of some Hareidi recruits, and the problem would be reasonably solved.
DeleteSensible discussion includes two willing partners, which never evolved.
DeleteAll nonsense. This was not a rally about Torah study. There is no attempt to "crush the yeshivah world." It's about the charedi community not willing to make any contribution whatsoever to the burden of defense.
Delete"went to show solidarity with the Torah observant community"
Deletethat should be "went to show solidarity with A Torah observant community" (not "the")
nobody is stopping anyone from learning 24 hours a day before they are 18 and after they are 21. the idea that this is about shmad and the destruction of torah is the BIG LIE.
DeleteDT wrote "Most people - including myself - went to show solidarity with the Torah observant community. I didn't hear many specific reasons given by friends and family - just the importance of unity around the idea of Torah study - especially when it has been under attack."
Deletei have several qs for you. 1) do you have a Rav? ["assay lecha Rav"] If yes what is his name( rav m. shternbuch)? 2) did the rav say people should go to the rally? if yes what was his reason? 3) i was suprised by your reason of "just to show solidarity..." & nothing about davening together with multitudes of Torah loyal Jews! the power of such tefilla ,especially when its unites different types...Also a great kidush shem shamayim, especially when it is seen by goyim & has the potential to awaken assimilated jews worldwide to their heritage; & nothing about the true reasons behind lapids attempts to change laws that effect yeshivas & kollelim. 4) you wrote "Most people..." really? Most people?? did you take a poll?? i didnt , but i would guess most people went because they care about the tremendous chillul hashem of the govt.,the potentialy "shmad" type of laws that they are seeking to pass, & for my reasons cited above. but more importantly -perhaps- they went because their "Rav" rabbonim Gedolim said they should go! i await your Daas Torah reply. thanks.
What were the charedim thinking calling it a ''Million Man March''? Who knew that the charedim were fans of Louis Farrakhan, who called for the original ''Million Man March''? On October 16, 1995 masses of blacks gathered in Washington, D.C. around the National Mall in the city. The National Park Service issued an estimate of about 400,000 attendees
ReplyDeleteWell now the charedi rally is over. Israel police reports 300,000 participants. Channel 2 TV News reports 250,000. And the charedi shakranim/propagandists are claiming 600,000 participants. There is a special prayer for a gathering of 600,000 Jews... they said it... one problem there weren't 600,000 Jews present. So approximately 250,000-300,000 charedim made a bracha levatala...
They called for a ''Million Man Atzeres''...and all 3 Moetzes Gedolei HaTorahs called in unison (for the first time in history) on the faithful to participate...announcing Lech Kenos Es Kol HaYehudim... all this, and they only got 300,000 participants...and this includes tens of thousands of pre-teens...(did the children have any say in whether or not they wanted to come to the rally?)
The 300,000 man charedi demonstration didn't change anything. They are still in the opposition. They have no power. They are at the mercy of Lapid-Bennett. By March 10-12 -- in 1 week! -- the draft legislation will pass & the charedim will have to live with the consequences, whether they like it or not.
No one has to go to the army or perform national service til July 2017. The government is granting some 50,000 charedi males -- who until now have been imprisoned in their yeshivas -- permanent exemptions from the army, effective immediately. IOW, the shtetl walls are being lifted & charedi males will be able to leave yeshiva & go to college & join the workforce... The charedi rabbinic leadership is very afraid...
And now get ready for the backlash. The spectacle of 300,000 unemployed charedi men marching in the streets in middle of the week, during work hours...will strengthen Yair Lapid.
“This picture proves why equality in the burden of military service is so important, because anyone looking at this mass of people understands that the State of Israel can’t carry these people on its back without them taking part in military and civilian service and taking part in the labor force and the Israeli economy.
A state with self-respect understands that there is a connection between rights and obligations. There can’t be one sector that is freed from the obligations. I have nothing against them, but I want them to fulfill the same obligations as my son has. They need to have a part in being Israeli, and this is not an outrageous demand. They need to know that this is not an attack on the Torah world or Torah study.” -- Finance Minister and Yesh Atid chairman Yair Lapid
Funny that you should parrot the claims of Shmarya Rosenberg about the number of attendees when Israeli media says more.
DeleteHaaretz (500,000 plus) http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.577376
Jerusalem you live in a bubble. While in principle I agree with some things you say - the political and social processes don't change based on simple logical observations.
DeleteYou might look up the Dubno Maggid's explanation of why the angels were so vociferous against Moshe getting the Torah when as G-d pointed out it really wasn't relevant for them.
Regarding your "psak" that a beracha l'vatala was made. Obviously there is no need to count 600,000 people in order to say the beracha.
this is also the halacha concerning defining a reshus harabbim
נדבת חכם הרדים
ה( ונכלל אנחנו מוכרחים לומר ולא צדיך מנין ממש של ס' רבוא והגע בעצמן דבשו"ע סי' רכ"ד איתא וז"ל: הרואה ששים רבוא מישראל ביחד אומר ברוך אתה ה' אמ"ה חכם הרזים האם דוקא היכא שספרו את ישראל קבעו ברכה זו הלא לפי שיטת הרמב"ן אסור לספור את ישראל אפי' ע"י,,,
שקלים עי' בדבריו בתחילת פ' במדבר אלא ודאי דלא בעינן מספר ממש וא"כ איך אפשר לדעת אם יש שם ששים רבוא או שלשים רבוא והיאך קבעו ברכה שאי אפשר לעשות ובמקום ספק הלא ספק ברכות להקל ולא מברכין ולהרבה ראשונים יש חשש של איסור לא תשא וא"כ ע"כ קבעו הברכה כמנין הנראה כששים רבוא וא"כ גם ל גבי דין
דרה"ר לגבי שבת לא בעינן אלא מספר הנראה כששים וברא רדו"ק.
וז''ל חגאבדק"ק קל ריזענברר ג ב שר"ח דברי יציב ס' קע"ג: דאין סברא כלל לומר שיצטרכו העדים בחיובי מיתת ב''ד ובחיוב חטאת לדעת ולספור אם באותו יום ובכל יום עוברים שם ששים ובוא במספר אלא דכל שהמקום ידוע שעוברים דרך שם אנשים רבים מאוד בכל יום חשוב רשרה"ר . וכוונתם רק לפרש דהך רה"ר שדיברו בו חכמים לענין שבת אין הכוונה ברבים ושלשה או עשרה וכטומאה ברה"ר אלא ובעינן שיעור מוגזם
''מאוד של עם גדול ורב והיינו רה"ר שאמרו חז"ל עכ"ל . ול פי דברינו הגדר הוא מקרם הנראה ס' וברא וא''כ לאר הגזמה היא אלא גדר של נראה כששים וברא וכמו בוכת חכם הרזים דהוי ג"כ גדר כזה ודו''ק.
Good as a Limud Zechus, maybe, but not to Pasken to do so. You know how flimsy this 'Halachic' argument is. Must I explain?
Delete1) Multitudes are Maikel on an Eruv when there is clearly no Shishim Ribo, so now we make a Bracha because the Klausenburger makes this comparison?
2) In who's eyes should it look like Shishim Ribo? in the eyes of someone who doesn't know how to count? I think that the average person would be overwhelmed by a crowd of 100,000 or even less, so should we make a Bracha and Assur the Eruv?
3) If this argument is correct, it would apply when Mevinim are Mesha'er around the 600,000 mark give or take, not when the Mevinim say that it was between 250,000 and 300,000.
If a serious Rov (with no Negios) would be asked this question before the fact, he would certainly not rule to make the Bracha.
Please provide citations.
DeleteIs that how it works? The Halacha in all the Poskim clearly states Shishim Ribo, with no Machlokes whatsoever, and someone comes to totally change the Pshat of the simple Mashmaos, and says that Shloshim Ribo is enough too, brings a Teshuva where we find a Pshat Mechudash in the Ra"n, when many different Pshatim were given, and many Rishonim don't hold like the Ra"n altogether, but they require Shishim Ribo Mamash, and many Poskim rely on that for Eruv and are thereby Matir Hotza'ah. And the words of this Teshuva are not spoken for the purpose of ruling for the Bracha of Chacham Harazim, and doesn't define 'Mugzam', and on the basis of that we allow anyone to redefine the Halacha to whatever number he feels like, and I have to bring citations to support the clearly stated Halacha?!
DeleteIt's as I said:
If a serious Rov (with no Negios) would be asked this question before the fact, he would certainly not rule to make the Bracha.
Please tell me how they establish that there are at least 600 000. Is it necessary to actually count them?
DeleteSee http://www.laeruv.com/eruv-guide/
That is an excellent question.
DeleteBut when we know that there ain't, then it's not much of a question after all.
Men paskent nisht azoi kein shaalos. If you can find me a serious Poisek that rules to make a Bracha on 250,000-300,000, please let me know. I would be very VERY surprised.
This was a huge disgrace. The message being put out was that the state is trying to stamp out religious judaism by forcing charedim into the army. Obviously, they claim, those who go to the army become non religious. This is spitting in the face of the hundreds of thousands of religious jews who have served and the entire national religious sector. They may as well have gone to every hesder yeshiva and painted on the walls that they are all non religious.
ReplyDeleteEverything they say and do is based on falsehoods and hate. MK Gafni has been spending his time vowing to harm the hesder system and the national religious just for revenge. It seems incredible that a religious jew would make such statements but the charedi representative in the kenneset has done so.
They claim that this law is the end to the torah world, but it merely forces a small percent of students into the army (3,800 in 2014, 4,500 in 2015, and 5,200 in 2016) absolving everyone else and allowing them to legally work. Criminal sanctions only comes into effect after the next election; meaning that anything could happen and either way, why do the haredim feel they are different from every other israeli who has to suffer criminal sanctions.
I am from a charedi background though i would consider myself national religious now. Yet knowing orthodoxy has leaders like this who work off mass hysteria and intellectual fraud makes me wonder that if this is what judiasm is about, why bother.
Dave you don't have the foggiest idea about Israeli politics
DeleteIs this about politics or is this about values?
DeleteRegarding what? the fact that the charedim are stating that the state is doing all it can to destroy judaism and implying that the national religious are not religious because they went through the terrible army?
DeleteAs Rabbi Druckman said "“I totally reject [the march]. If this demonstration is being held to say that Israel is fighting against the rule of the Kingdom of Heaven, I am so shocked and outraged by it."
Perhaps you didn't read what gafni said. From the jewish press:
"Haredi MK Moshe Gafni (Yahadut HaTorah) told Makor Rishon that, to avenge the Shaked law, as soon as he is back in power, he will destroy the Hesder Yeshivas — where students both study Torah and serve in elite combat units. MK Gafni also threatened to end all funding to the settlements, and to dry them out, as soon as he is back in a government role. For the record, his one government role so far has been, during the 12th Knesset (this one is the 19th): Deputy Minister of Religious Affairs. In the past, in retaliation for budget cuts that hurt Haredi families, MK Gafni, who Chairs the Knesset Science and Technology Committee, also threatened to intentionally create problems the Finance Ministry would have to spend a lot of state money to fix."
You want to claim this is israeli politics? For a frum jew, a representative of frum jews, to direct such hatred against yeshivot and talk about revenge just for the sake of it? This is extremely low. Don't tell me this is israeli politics.
(This is not his first attack against hesder yeshivot; he isn't merely threatening.)
Tell me exactly what I am missing.
I identify as a chariedi but in one of your points I agree with you. No matter what side of the debate one is on, the chariedi mks talk of taking revenge is reprehensible especially as they claim to represent daas Torah.
DeleteI don't get how bitul Torah on a massive scale helps the cause of Torah. My son is in yeshiva and went to this rally. We are livid about it. We did not send him to EY to learn in yeshiva with our hard earned money for him to be used as a political pawn.
ReplyDeleteWe missed the boat years ago. When things were good and the stipends were generous and rolling in, we should have held the million man hakaras hatov rally. But really, was what we were getting ever enough according to our leaders or politicians? We chareidim refuse to view things from the other side of the fence, and we will pay dearly for our lack of hakaras hatov to a medina we refuse to give any credit to.
The logical conclusion of your assertions is that we should accept the "Daas Torah" of the secular government
DeleteNo, not "Daas Torah" of the secular government" but intellectually honest. I am disgusted wth those who call themselves "frumme yiden" and spit so much hatred against other yiden as MKs Gafni, Eichler and others. They recuires respect but do not show any for those of a different opinion. Those so called rabbis are proving that many hours wrestling with Talmud does not mean that you in the every day life behave in line with The Torah and Talmud. They nare fulfilling the letters of Mitzvot but don´t bother of the essences of them?
DeleteNo, not "Daas Torah" of the secular government" but intellectually honest. I am disgusted wth those who call themselves "frumme yiden" and spit so much hatred against other yiden as MKs Gafni, Eichler and others. They recuires respect but do not show any for those of a different opinion. Those so called rabbis are proving that many hours wrestling with Talmud does not mean that you in the every day life behave in line with The Torah and Talmud. They nare fulfilling the letters of Mitzvot but don´t bother of the essences of them?
DeleteAs everyone knows, I am the last person who would be labeled hareidi. However, Israel is a democracy, and there are regualr protests by every group, including leftists, rightists, gays, arabs, etc etc. Some of these protests are violent, and require intervention . arrests, and shooting. The protest of yesterday was legitimate in Israeli law. there was no vandalism, no violence. it was not like Ukraine (where the ancestors of many of the protestors may have come from). In Ukraine, the Jews would be too scared to protest, but in Israel they are free to do as they like.
DeleteI would agree that there should be a hakaras haTov, but of course, that might be asking too much.
having hakarat hatov is accepting the secular government's daat torah? trying to understand the other side is accepting daat torah?
DeleteThe claim "The government is trying to destroy Torah study" is about as believable as "Our Torah study is the real protection for Israel". Nobody, not even the Chareidim, believe the latter either.
ReplyDeleteand none believes the zionists are a real protection for anyone either
DeleteRabbi Eidensohn, can you please answer one simple question: Are the Chareidi Roshei Yeshiva telling us the truth? When they quote gemaras about Talmidei Chachamim being exempt, aren't those gemaras referring to Milchemes Reshus? But today, aren't we in a Milchemes Mitzvah, where nobody is exempt?
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn, can you please answer one simple question: Are the Chareidi Roshei Yeshiva telling us the truth? When they quote gemaras about Talmidei Chachamim being exempt, aren't those gemaras referring to Milchemes Reshus? But today, aren't we in a Milchemes Mitzvah, where nobody is exempt?
ReplyDeleteThe press said the לויה of ROY was 800,000... If so from the air photos this was at least twice as much.
ReplyDeleteOne of the lies heard in 'haradim' seaving in the army... This is about לומדי תורה... Who must be exempt... Not as the hilonim mis- represent...
ReplyDeleteYes garnel , the לומדי תורה protect the jewish people... I could bring you 30 sources but u are smart and can find them yourself...
ReplyDeletethe supposed official video of the not-protest
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waDkfiEHxsg&feature=youtu.be
1) if limud torah protects then why do you need to protest. Or even have a government party? Just learn torah and everything will be ok.
ReplyDeleteI feel sorry for moshe and dovid hamelech; they are obviously not on the level we are today as they felt the religious jews should physically fight.
2) How much torah exactly is needed for this protection? there are tens of thousands learning in yeshivot around the world. Isn't it lucky that we have just the right amount; sending a few thousand to the army each year would really bring the amount of torah being learnt under the red line.
Dovid... Look at sanhedrin 99: at the bottom... Mah mahani rabbanan
ReplyDelete2) אלף למטה... For each soldier there was one in the shule learning( midrash rabbah)
3) yoav's sucess in battle came from david' learning( מכות 10)
4) i have 27 more sources but mainly i rely on the גדולי תורה RALS, RCK, the klausingberger rebbi and all the others which i can't mention now
I once heard rav carlebach of the אור החיים seminary in בני ברק say it's hard to find shiduchim for all his sefardi girls because the sefardi boys go in the army and become irrelgious... 90%!!!!
ReplyDelete