Tuesday, June 18, 2013

Rav Soloveitchik: Mesira doesn't apply in democratic countries


Mesirah In Contemporary Times June 14, 2012  
Jewish Press page 57
FROM A LECTURE SERIES
BY RABBI AHARON ZIEGLER 


[...] Rav Soloveitchik had a different point of view on this matter. He said in the name of his father Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik that the laws of mesirah simply do not apply in democratic countries. Therefore, the determination of how reliable an accusation is should be left in the hands of trained and professional law enforcement personnel and not rabbanim. 

In the haredi world, this position is viewed as marginal, but in the Modern Orthodox world this position can clearly be accepted as mainstream, or even normative.

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Can anybody provide a specific source that backs up this assertion? The Aruch HaShulchan apparently held this view. From my Child and Domestic Abuse volume II -

Aruch HaShulchan (C.M. 388:7): Comment: It is known to all students of history that in early times in far away lands that a person had no personal security because of bandits and other forces even if these forces called themselves a government. This is still true today for some countries such in Africa where the government itself is involved in theft and robbery. In contrast the governments of Europe and in particular to our master the Czar of Russia and his ancestors and well as the government of England who have spread the protective wings of their governments in foreign lands in order to ensure the protection of the individual in such a manner that the rich do not need to hide themselves to prevent being plundered or killed. This reality of looting and killing was the reason for the halachos against informing and slandering that are found in the Talmud and poskim as we explained them. Thus these halachos only apply to someone who is an informant on others to bandits such as these and is considered a rodef (pursuer) against the person and his property and thus can be stopped even by killing.

Tzitz Eliezar (19:52): 5).....b) Even concerning the non‑Jewish courts it would appear that there is a difference between uncivilized countries and enlightened ones as is stated in the Aruch HaShulchan (C.M. 388:7): All that is written in the Talmud and poskim regarding the prohibition of moser – is referring to distance lands where a person’s life and money are not secure because of the bandits and lawless people – even though they have a government as we find in various countries such as those in Africa… as opposed to the European countries. It is obvious from the words of the Aruch HaShulchan that he truly meant this and not out of fear of the government… As I mentioned, the above was written for the general clarification of the prohibition of moser. Side point: In addition to what we have said that the essential prohibition of moser is to hand the case to a non-Jewish court, but if the times require it and it is done with the permission of the beis din – there is a basis to say it is permitted in a situation where it is not possible for the Jewish court to handle the case. We find an example of this in the Mabit (1:22) concerning the imprisonment of a heretic by the non‑Jewish government and the condition of freedom was to leave the country and to divorce his wife….

44 comments :

  1. I don't know if the issue is democratic countries or the other kind. If a country has an honest system of justice, that is the key. We know that in NY State there are problems with justice because of individuals who are not honest or capable. It has nothing to do with democracy. One policeman was found to be involved in many false accusations, and he did it to advance his career. I don't know if he was the only one.

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  2. It has everything to do with Democracy. Democracy=the People's voice, is a deterrent to despotic and cruel behaviour. I use the word deterrent advisedly. There are no guarantees, but when something is wrong, as was shown in Guantanamo Bay, people power has an affect. There is no people power outside of a democracy, unless you want to parade in Tiannamen Square or Turkey or Syria.

    As to this view, HaGaon R' Hershel Schachter has spoken and written about it many times.

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  3. Oh come on that doesn't "freg up" the whole system. That happens in any system-even lehavdil....

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  4. I repeat my post:


    " I am not going to get into whether Mesirah applies today. There
    is ample precedent among major Poskim – both past and present - that in a
    country where there is a fair system of Justice, Mesirah does not apply. I
    agree with them – as does just about all of the Poskim that I value."

    While obviously the psak of rav elyashiv is paramount, and hence it is permissible only in the case of pikuach nefesh to report a rodef, the naivite of people who really believe the US justice system is just is unbelievable, especially from intelligent people.

    How many innocent people on death row etc in Texas and other States? What about Pollard and what about the millions of divorced fathers in the US whose human rights are trampled upon by feminist divorce courts.

    It is astounding that anyone with seichel can claim these courts are fair and just. Are they better than the Soviet Union, in most cases yes but in many no. At least in the soviet union no pretense was made of erlichkeit but here it is a circus.

    Do we know that US courts are more fair than the UK, Australia, South Africa, the rest of the Western world? We dont?

    OJ Simpson, the woman in Florida last year let off scott free when her child "disappeared" even in the Rubashkin case a judge should not decide whether to recuse herself or not. Please the US justice system is very, very far from perfect.

    It is those YU Rabbi types with law degrees who are pushing this baloney that the US court system is fair.

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    1. Stan can you please explain what Pikuach Nefesh Rav Eliashiv saw in turning a thief over to secular authorities?

      Rav Eliashiv(Divrei Sinai page 45-46): … See Panim Me’eros (2:155) concerning our issue in which someone found an open chest from which much was stolen. There is reasonable circumstantial evidence that one of the workers was the thief. He was asked whether it was permissible to inform the secular authorities and that this will lead to him to confess … However at the end the Panim Me’eros concludes, “It is improper to turn a Jew over to secular authorities as our Sages say they will treat him like a trapped animal and there is concern that if he confesses they will kill him.” From here it is clear that this ruling is not applicable in our times. Therefore by halacha it is proper to turn to the police.

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  5. Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein is on the record here at 36:30. He heard it directly from his father in law who heard it from his father.

    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/735242/Rabbi_Dr_Aharon_Lichtenstein/Q_and_A_576

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  6. I think the issue may not honesty but whether or not the system systematically arrests people to extort money from them. I am not aware of that happening even in Brooklyn, a corrupt DA who i despise, mostly because he lets haredi molesters off the hook most of the time. I have detailed this in my post: http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/hynes-delivers-scalps-to-hasidim-just-the-wrong-ones/

    Regarding the Rav (Yosef Dov Soloveitchik)it may be hard to confirm his position with a written psak since he rarely wrote piskei halachah in keeping with the brisk tradition. So it will probably be a question of securing accounts from people close to him who are talmidei chachamim and very trustworthy. I would think the best candidates would be R. Hershel Schachter and R. Aaron Lichtenstein.

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  7. This is Hillarious
    In contrast the governments of Europe and in particular to our master the Czar of Russia and his ancestors
    YES TRUE JUSTICE FROM THE CZAR!!!!

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    1. that is why many question the validity of this heter - including Rav Moshe Sternbuch. So far the Tzitz Eliezar is the only written psak that I have found that supports this as the genuine view of the Aruch HaShulchan.

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    2. I have heard some argue that his reference to England was a wink to his readers that that is the kind of government he was actually talking about.

      Delete
  8. R Michael Tzaddok
    I frankly cannot answer you. If rav elyashiv were alive I would try and find someone to clarify. if what you are saying is correct then his psak on molestors is entirely superfluous by kal ve'chomer. if you can report for theft then surely it is poshut you can report for pikuach nefesh so what is the big deal of his psak.

    There is no doubt that James nonsense about Rav Soleveitchik's opinion is laughable. Such an opinion is beyond belief. The American court system is so unjust and the vast majority of lawyers would agree to it that all they do each and every day is game the system for thewir clients. If the answer is that it is one of the best in the world, who cares. In absolute terms it is disgraceful.

    The "psak" with regards to America is laughable. Basically in s'dom geneivaoh and oppression was muttar because that was the majority view held. Does that mean there was no mesirah involved? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. I mean no disrespect to Rav Soleveitchik, his fahter or son in law but they have deluded themselves.

    I cannot believe that such intelligent people with such high IQs can have such ridiculous opinions. It shows that they can be so utterly wrong and cannot be relied upon all the time and one needs to use common sense.

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    1. if what you are saying is correct then his psak on molestors is entirely superfluous by kal ve'chomer. if you can report for theft then surely it is poshut you can report for pikuach nefesh so what is the big deal of his psak.

      Unless you learn Rav Eliashiv's psak as saying that there is indeed a nezek in molestation, and that it is so serious that it is considered a pikuach nefesh.

      Delete
    2. Why are you attacking me? The Moderator asked for a source so I pointed him to the source. You can disagree with the opinion and think it is laughable but the source is 100% reliable and I think RYBS was 100% reliable in stating his father's opinion.

      I am not advocating for the end of mesirah. I am just giving the Moderator the source he requested.

      Delete
  9. @Stan,

    I fully agree with you - the claim that in a so-called democracy the laws of mesirah should not apply is utterly laughable. Democracy now is just a euphemism for unconstitutional despotic mob-rule by the favored PC groups such as black & Hispanic supremacists, homos, and feminists.

    Here's just a few examples of the lack of justice in America today.

    a) In the words of the Tzitz Eliezer - "distance lands where a person’s life and money are not secure because of the bandits and lawless people". America today is full of lawless people, many of them PC "minorities" and illegal aliens, who commit crimes with impunity and will never be convicted by a jury of their criminal minority peers. A non-minority person who defends himself from these minority criminals will likely be charged with a crime instead of the criminal himself.
    http://crownheights.info/crime/

    b) A Jew who commits a financial crime (such as Rubashkin) may very likely receive a far worse sentence than a non-Jew who commits a similar crime.

    c) A Jewish husband whose wife makes false domestic violence charges against him can easily be imprisoned without any jury trial, deprived of his children, and stripped of his constitutional rights, while corrupt Jewish feminist groups cheer the wife on. Of course the YU trolls here such as James don't even seem to recognize the concept of moredes in halacha.


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  10. Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, Rav Soleveitchik z"l, R Hershel Schachter and all other modernishes

    Please go to tell all this to the marines. April fools day is once a year, not every day.

    http://listverse.com/2013/04/09/10-innocent-people-sentenced-to-death/

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row

    http://madamenoire.com/73840/exonerated-after-execution-12-men-and-one-woman-found-innocent-after-being-put-to-death/

    http://www.judgesgonerogue.org/

    http://exposecorruptcourts.blogspot.com/

    Do i need to go on. I will not even put in words the revulsion that any sensible person should havefor such an opinion.

    1) OJ Simpson had the whole world laughing at your justice system.

    2) Casey Anthony

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  11. The modernishe oylom are real hypocrites. They laugh at the chareidim for believing their human gedolim are as infallible as the pope. Yet all over your web site we see them posting about hagoan this and hagoan that holding opinions that a 10 year old would consider laughable.
    My rov said the only way you can interpret such foolish opinions of people with such high IQs is pure negius- they wish to justify their move to overlook archo'oys and mesirah so they come up with this baloney. Unfortunately in this cae i think he is spot on.

    Bottom line: American justice is a joke.

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  12. All those modernishe biryonim who had the temerity to personally attack rav menashe klein about his frankly not logical views on reporting a molestor to the police should be ashamed of themselves.

    rav menashe was in the holocast. his views of goyeshe authority must have been influenced by what he went through.

    yet an equally illogical conclusion that there is no longer mesirah because of the "just american legal system" that these thugs justify and actually implement. note how they support women who have been oyver mesirah in making false allegations against their husbands to the authorities yet they still put siruvim on these unfortunate men. shame on you. you are responsible for delaying moshiach.

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  13. Stan if you really believe what you are saying then in fact we should forget about beis din as well since as you well known there are problems.

    The basic point is whether the general system of a democratic country is significantly more likely to produce justice then a dictatorship or monarchy is the question.

    If you demand a system that is totally neutral then there is no possible justice system. However Chazal tell us that we must have a justice system even though errors are inevitable. The question is whether mesira applies to a system that in principle and most of the time is just and treats everyone the same.

    There are a number of different understandings of mesira 1) giving a Jew into the control of a non-Jew. This obviously makes now distinction between democacy and dictatorship 2) Giving a Jew over to a corrupt systme which is biased against Jews - In this case democracy would be acceptable 3) placing a Jew in a situation where he has a significant chance of losing his property or his life. - Rav Elishiv and others say that this is not so today. Thus a democracy would not be mesira. 4) Giving a Jew over to the government with the intent of harming him financial, physically or causing him to be killed - this view also would not not differentiate between democacy or dictatorship.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 20, 2013 at 5:29 AM

      Don't feed the Trolls.

      Delete
  14. No you are once again totally incorrect. The only reason that there are problems with bais din in NY is because we have a corrupt bunch of leaders. In NY we have 2 very ehrlich botei din - that of rav gestetner and rav abraham who do not take a cent, which have been despicable and falsely discredited by the corrupt leadership we have.

    If what you are telling me is that out of the thousands of talmidim in lakewood in the US and the Mir, Ponevez and Chevron et al in Eretz Yisroel we cannot produce 50 or 100 ehrlich dayonim for klal yisroel as a start then frankly what you are telling me is that the religion you hold so dearly is frankly an utter farce. i hope not.

    "The question is whether mesira applies to a system that in principle and most of the time is just and treats everyone the same" you must again be kidding. Is this justice system the same for rich and poor? how many corrupt investment bankers do you know who have been jailed in the US for the depression that would have been caused by them without TARP money that President Obama so wisely injected into the US economy with all its wrinkles.?

    What about corrupt politicians who allegedly lied about the reasons for the Iraq war with not so hidden agendas or is it coincidences that companies like Haliburton suddenly had huge windfalls and are now respected as elderly statesmen?

    The american justice system is utterly corrupt. You can disagree but then again you don't live subject to its corruption while many divorced men certainly do, certainly many millions in the US who suffer daily persecution and "have a significant chance (equal to 100%) of losing their property and proper access to their children."

    Respectfully please do not put words into the mouth of rav elyashiv. he would been horrified at the draconian divorce and other laws in this country called the US which with all its claims to exceptional ism are immoral.

    I can only conclude from your remarks that you have been equally fooled by the narishkeit of the MO that America has a just legal system that for a start usually involves litigation that for the average citizen will bankrupt him. I can also only conclude that fortunately for you you have never been personally affected by this "just" justice system.

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    1. Stan you simply refuse to acknowledge that depending on your definition of mesira - a democractic country can eliminate the problem - as the Tzitz Eliezer says is clearly the view of the Aruch HaShulchan.

      Obviously you have whom to rely on to disagree - but you can't say that some big people who know how to learn and know their way around psak - think the distinction is valid.

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    2. Against the TrollsJune 20, 2013 at 10:36 AM

      Told you. Don't feed the trolls.

      What we are now going to hear is:
      1) There are only two valid Batei Din in the world.
      2) The secular court systems are utterly corrupt. In fact worse ever than in history.
      3) Anyone who says otherwise is a moron.
      4) MO is an evil and corrupting force that is working its way even into the Chareidi world, and that is the only reason that any sensible person will object to the first three points.

      None of this is meant to be constructive(or even based in verifiable facts) to the conversation. It is meant to be disruptive, and to cause hot dispute.

      It wouldn't surprise me if "Stan" doesn't belong to some Troll community(possibly antisemitic) where he brags about his ability to bring constructive conversation to a halt, and then laughs at everyone who takes him seriously.

      Delete
  15. DT you are right they can have their opinion in theory but it certainly does not apply to the United States. They know how to learn and are blinded by negius

    Please also explain the following if the US has non-corrupt laws:
    1) Billions spent on lobbying each year to get laws that favor certain groups over others.
    2) corrupt tort law and awards that are ridiculous
    3) personal injury law awards that are corrupt
    4) amnesty international and other human rights organizations has repeatedly condemned the US for human rights violations.
    5) gun laws that have almost as many guns as people as the highest murder rates in the western world.
    6) Guantanamo bay and holding people for years without a trial.
    7)far larger prison populations than any other wwestern country per capita.
    8) Allowing gay marriage - while liberals are in favor of it -the torah is obviously not.
    9)very liberal abortion laws which are unjust.

    That is besides for other areas of law which are fundamentally flawed that I have raised already such as:
    1) ridiculous marriage laws in some states.
    2) a legal system that totally favors the rich such as the banks and has another set of justice for the poor.
    3) a totally discredited system based on the corruption of the judges
    4)by far the highest per capita number of lawyers in the western world because filing lawsuits in torts / personal injuries is not only so lucrative but even in matters such as divorce an evil/ litigous party can litigate until the shomayim in order to bankrupt you.

    So again it appears you either never understood what I wrote or chose not to understand what i wrote. It is one thing for me not to respect Gush and YU. Another to condemn the opinion of the Oruch hashulchan. Anyone who understands the basics - that the US does not fall in the category of the oruch hashulchan's psak understands that theory is very nice but the reality is very different.

    Now please address the fundamental flaw in your argument: the US has a just legal system. It does NOT. That is the bottom line. Explain the position of those who believe the US has a fundementally fiar legal system in practice. I am not that stupid as to articulate that ther oruch hashulchan is wrong. I will leave that to others.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 20, 2013 at 5:27 PM

      4) amnesty international and other human rights organizations has repeatedly condemned the US for human rights violations.
      Israel too. Though they give Cuba, Iran, North Korea and China clean reports. Something about that ought to set off alarm bells.

      5) gun laws that have almost as many guns as people as the highest murder rates in the western world.

      The US is 3rd in murders throughout the world(it is actually behind the UK). However, if you take out the four cities with the strictest gun laws, DC, Detroit, Chicago and New Orleans, the US would be 4th from the bottom. So your argumentation here does not make sense.

      7)far larger prison populations than any other wwestern country per capita.
      Again that distinction goes to the UK.

      Delete
    2. Against the TrollsJune 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM

      6) Guantanamo bay and holding people for years without a trial.

      All of whom fall under the enemy combatant non-regular army/saboteurs/spies clause of the Geneva Conventions. Which state that they forfeited any legal protections when they took up arms.
      The US, under the Geneva Conventions has the right to torture or summarily execute spies/saboteurs/terrorists.
      Instead they are giving them trials... You say that something here is corrupt?

      Delete
  16. Against the trolls is a moron because:
    1) I was referring to the Us Not world wide.
    2) US courts are corrupt. no one said anything about worst in history - stop inventing things i never said.
    3) you are a moron.
    4)many aspects of MO are evil such as their botei din perverting halocho - this has been discussed ad infinitum on this blog.

    "based on verifiable facts": I posted a whole bunch of references about how many people have been unfairly put on death row, corrupt judges etc. So go and prove those allegations wrong.

    it wouldn't surprise me if "against the trolls" what part of the eirev rav, amoleik modern orthodox yeshiva universit that reb elchonon would not step into and which countless gedolim claim is heresy.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 20, 2013 at 5:22 PM

      1) I was referring to the Us Not world wide.
      Then why do the first two links that you posted have folks from Spain and Japan?
      US courts are corrupt.
      For which we are supposed to take your trollish word.
      4)many aspects of MO are evil such as their botei din perverting halocho - this has been discussed ad infinitum on this blog.
      By you. Spewing your same trollish garbage over and over again without ever offering a shred of evidence doesn't make something true.

      I posted a whole bunch of references about how many people have been unfairly put on death row, corrupt judges etc. So go and prove those allegations wrong.
      Those are blog posts and entertainment sites. None of them offer actual verifiable facts. Just admit that you are a troll and we can be done with this.

      it wouldn't surprise me if "against the trolls" what part of the eirev rav, amoleik modern orthodox yeshiva universit that reb elchonon would not step into and which countless gedolim claim is heresy.
      Look more Trolling. Instead of actually staying focused on discussion you go to an attack hoping to elicit an emotional and vitriolic response.

      Delete
  17. Against the trolls. You are an utter liar, They have folks from the US.

    You are new to this blog and hence I will not even dignify you with a response as to how many times H Schachter, Willig et al have been shown to be ciolating halocho. I guess you think the rashbo calling the BDA using secular law pure rishus is a joke.

    you know not what you speak about. go and post your nonsence on a MO blog biryon. correspondence with you is now closed since according to you:
    1) us has just lobbiests bribing the govt each and every day to pass laws that are often not in the interests oif its citizens
    2) gitmo has been closed or is moral
    3) GW invading iraq found WMD
    4) tort law reform in the US isunnecessary
    etc etc.
    the best example of the utter corrruption of the BDA is michael broyde.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 20, 2013 at 10:21 PM

      Against the trolls. You are an utter liar, They have folks from the US.

      Nice try TROLL. But let's take your first link.
      http://listverse.com/2013/04/09/10-innocent-people-sentenced-to-death/

      #8 Akabori Masao: quoting from the article- Ultimately, Masao was exonerated and finally found himself a free man again in 1989, receiving compensation of just under a million dollars from the Japanese government.

      #2 Gregorio Valero and Leon Sanchez: quoting from the article Those two men were Gregorio Valero and Leon Sanchez, and the gross miscarriages of justice that led to their conviction were to become infamous in Spain.

      #1 Sakae Menda: quoting from the article: . Yet that’s exactly what Sakae Menda went through. He spent more than three decades on Japan’s death row for a crime he did not commit.

      Considering that they are going through the last 103yrs of legal cases and can only come up with 7 people from the US who were wrongfully sentenced to death in the US...

      While we are at it, can you explain why Rabban Gamaliel banned the death penalty for the Sanhedrin?

      The hurdle given was not that the justice system be perfect, just that it not be horribly unjust, like it was under various dictators.

      Now let's go through your points:
      1) us has just lobbiests bribing the govt each and every day to pass laws that are often not in the interests oif its citizens
      Never said anything about lobbyists, but I don't see how it affects criminal law for the average citizen one bit.
      2) gitmo has been closed or is moral
      Said neither. What I did say was that it was within the bounds of the Geneva Conventions. Also most likely within the bounds of what the Torah says, at least according to the sefer Torat HaMelekh.
      3) GW invading iraq found WMD
      Said nothing about this. However given that Saddam Hussein was a rodef, and had killed his own people, are you saying an invasion to get him removed was unjust? Do you go to Tehran and hug Ahmaninjad in your spare time to?
      4) tort law reform in the US isunnecessary
      Again never said anything about this, and I am not enough of an expert in hilchos nezekin to know what the current valuses for damages to human beings would be. However Tort is civil court not criminal court. Rav Eliashiv clearly made a psak that you could even turn a thief over to the secular authorities. So apparently he didn't see a problem with modern secular govts in regards to criminal law. Who are you to say he is wrong?

      the best example of the utter corrruption of the BDA is michael broyde
      Here we go again with another of your trolling attempts.

      Delete
    2. "7)far larger prison populations than any other wwestern country per capita.
      Again that distinction goes to the UK."

      If that distinction does go to UK, it may be due to the fact that something like 40% of the prison population is muslim - far larger than their representation in the overall population.

      And Stan, how does this claim show the US to be unjust? They have a large population of thugs, and they put them i prison to protect the general law abiding populus. The opposite of the haredi concept, where they allow their thugs to attack and abuse people, and they mustn't be reported because of "mesira". So US is evil for protecting its people and instituting Shoftim and Shotrim, whereas the haredim are tzaddikim for violating the torah commandment to appoint shoftim and shotrim, and the ensuing chaos it leads to.

      Delete
  18. the MO biryon makes ridiculous claims.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

    Large income inequality leads to more crime.

    "The opposite of the haredi concept, where they allow their thugs to attack and abuse people" like boruch lanner. so then why is H Schachter, G Swatz and M Willig still walking around?

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    1. Stan, you are talking rubbish. You are simply throwing in your own communist/fascist /biryon ideology to explain phenomena you do not understand. A large prison population could be evidence of a good and effective judicial system. In UK, they often let out murderers, rapists etc after a few years, who then go on to commit more crimes. IN US, they have a history of being the wild west, with all kinds of people running around with guns, gangs, mafia etc.
      Also, politically, some governments do not want to too many prisons, so they let criminals walk free.

      All you have done is to speak motzi shem ra against Rabbis that you do not agree with, claiming they should be in prison. HOwever, they have not committed any imprisonable crimes, thus you are also breaking secular law, of secular loshon hara (libel).

      Delete
    2. Against the TrollsJune 21, 2013 at 12:57 PM

      Unfortunately the Wikipedia data is skewed because they are using the ICPS numbers. The UK is thus broken up into eight parts, and every pretrial detainee(21.5% of the US number) is also counted. Meaning if you spend a night in lockup for a DUI you become part of that number. Another 5.9% according to ICPS are foreign detainees. Meaning every time they arrest an illegal alien for deportation, that also becomes part of that number.
      If we take out that skewing data(27.4%) the US thus has 583 per 100k.
      However lets just hold off on that, and instead re-assemble the UK.
      Anguilla=487
      British Virgin Islands= 460
      Cayman Islands= 382
      Jersey=167
      England and Wales=148
      Scotland= 146
      Northern Ireland= 99
      Ireland=94
      Suddenly the UK's prison population is 1983(that's a lot bigger).
      Or if you just want to go with those areas that actually have representatives in Parliament, we have 654.
      Now for sake of argument let's remove what ICPS has as the UK's pretrial detainees and illegal aliens(a total of 16.9%) and compare that number with the US number(also minus pretrial detainees and illegal aliens).
      UK=543
      US=519

      Stop using data that you don't understand and don't know how to read.

      Delete
    3. Against the TrollsJune 21, 2013 at 1:02 PM

      the MO biryon makes ridiculous claims.
      Since when is following the Psak of Rav Eliashiv make one MO? He said one may hand over even a suspected thief to the secular authorities. Which is clearly siding more the the Titz Eliezer and Arukh HaShulchan then anything you have said so far.

      Why are you arguing on Rav Eliashiv's psak?

      Delete
  19. he MO biryon makes ridiculous claims.
    Since when is following the Psak of Rav Eliashiv make one MO? He said one may hand over even a suspected thief to the secular authorities. Which is clearly siding more the the Titz Eliezer and Arukh HaShulchan then anything you have said so far.

    Why are you arguing on Rav Eliashiv's psak?

    That is the opinion of R Tzaddok. So please cut the bull out.

    Don't selectively quote Rav Elyashiv. He hated MO with a passsion because of its krumkeit.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 21, 2013 at 2:25 PM

      That is the opinion of R Tzaddok. So please cut the bull out.

      Lie.

      ר' יוסף שלום אלישיב (דברי סיני - ירושלים תש"ס ע' מה-מו): תשובה: עיין בשו"ת פנים מאירות ח"ב סי' קנה, מ"ש בנידונו בא' שמצא תיבה פרוצה ונגנב מתוכה הון רב, ויש לו אומדנות המוכיחות שאחד ממשרתיו עשה את המעשה הזה, אי שרי לי' למוסרו לערכאות, ע"פ אומדן יעצו שיודה באמת. והביא שם מעשה רב מהבאון העשל והש"ך, עי"ש. אלא שבסוף הוא מסיק "וחכך אני מאוד שלא למוסרו לערכאותיהם, וכבר אמרו רז"ל כתוא מכמר, יש לחוש שאם יודה, ידונו אותו למיתה." ומכאן דזה לא שייך בזמננו. הרי מן הדין ראשים לפנות למשטרה.

      Those are clearly the words of Rav Eliashiv in his psak. Look it up, the source is there.

      This once again proves that you are a TROLL. You claim to follow Rav Eliashiv's psak. But when someone does you call them an MO biryon. You are just trying to be disruptive. As well as dishonest about who says what.

      Delete
  20. Against the trolls you have not answered a single charge about the corruption and lack of justice of the US legal system. Not a single one.

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    1. St@n,

      you don't even follow what ATT says -
      he says R' Elyashiv permitted mesira for serious crimes. That doesnt make him MO, but it makes your position untenable.

      Delete
    2. Against the TrollsJune 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM

      Against the trolls you have not answered a single charge about the corruption and lack of justice of the US legal system. Not a single one.

      That is because you haven't made a serious one. When you can pull actual statistics and show that you know how to read them from actual sources(not opinion pieces from blogs) I will gladly discuss it with you.

      Delete
  21. Rabbi Eidensohn, please curtail a fruitless, distracting repetitive abuse of commenting privileges by some of the above commenters.

    I like a constructive argument as much as the next guy. But that is not what we have above.

    For what it is worth, I am well aware that there are serious problems with the US criminal justice system. Sadly, some of the worst involve excessively long sentences and overuse of imprisonment to deal with individual drug use. However, notwithstanding the way it fell on Shalom Rubashkin, orthodox sex abusers are rarely affected by them. Even Nechemya Weberman could have gotten off with about 5 years in prison if he had pleaded guilty. Even if convicted at trial he probably would have gotten a 10-15 year sentence until he infuriated the judge by trying to make a mockery of justice with attempts at witness intimidation, bribery, perjury on the stand (including his brother-in-law) who declared to snickers there is no such thing as a vaad hatznius in Williamsburg, etc.

    Even so the judge was acting within the law, just giving him the maximum sentence. That is why judges are given discretion.

    The important fact about serious judicial miscarriage is that it falls most often on poor people without the resources for a good legal defense, and without influential political groups able to hold the system accountable if it goes too far. However the orthodox community has outdone itself in making sure every last one of its molesters had a gold-plated defense. Weberman's defense expenditures were lavish including a high powered jury selection firm with a three person team in the courtroom. Baruch Mordechai Lebovits' lawyer, Arthur Aidala is a personal friend of DA and is joined by Alan Dershowitz, who does not come cheap. Yosef Kolko had his legal expenses paid in advance and had the money for an appeal committed before his trial started. Etc. Also, to the best of my knoweldge, every last of orthodox defendants was out on bail awaiting trial, something that reduces pressure for a premature plea bargain, and motivates defense attorneys to press for delays which usually help defendants.

    While there have been, and doubtlessly will continue to be false convictions, I am not aware of a single credible allegation of a false conviction of an orthodox Jew for sex abuse.

    In fact, the only falsely accused orthodox Jew i know about in Brooklyn is Samuel Keller whose crime was bringing in witnesses against Hasidim guilty of CSA. I am very optimistic that he will be exonerated somewhere over the next 1-3 months.

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  22. Yerachmiel your pet cause now is child abuse. You are welcome to your oppinion or belief that courts are not corrupt in this case. Given my experience with many men in divorce cases i am certain that the matrimonial courts are totally biased and unfair. Hence using them involves mesirah even according to the oruch hashulchan. As for the trolls refusing to acknowledge the truth about the us. Court system they are just acting like idiots.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 22, 2013 at 9:04 PM

      You are mixing up US Civil law with US Criminal law. They are two very separate things, which is again an attempt to be disruptive.

      The Aruch HaShulchan, the Tzitz Eliezer and(unless you can provide a source saying otherwise) Rav Soloveitchik never said that one could opt for a secular court instead of Beit Din in those areas that Beit Din handles. That is clear from the Gemarra, Rishonin, Achronim and poskim. The Gemarra says that we don't use a secular court even if they rule exactly the way we do, and to do so is a denial of Moshe Rabbeinu and the Torah. No one has argued that.

      So stop being disruptive. We are talking criminal court, which the modern Beit Din totally doesn't handle.

      Once again you are simply trolling by trying to bring in an unrelated issue that happens to be very controversial on this blog.

      Delete
  23. Against the trolls has still failed to produce a single drip or drop of evidence that the US has just laws just law enforcement and just judges.
    On the contrary
    http://www.hrw.org/united-states/us-program

    "The enormous US prison population, the world's largest, partly reflects harsh sentencing practices contrary to international law, such as disproportionately long prison terms and mandatory sentencing without parole. Those behind bars include a growing number of elderly people, whom prisons are ill-equipped to handle, and youth under age 18 held in adult prisons. Unauthorized immigrants and their families in the United States are vulnerable to abuses stemming from an outdated, ineffective immigration system that deprives them of basic rights, and increasing numbers are held in detention facilities. A number of abusive counterterrorism policies have continued under President Barack Obama, including detentions without charge at Guantanamo Bay."

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/01/31/us-injustices-filling-prisons

    (Washington, DC) – The enormous prison population in the United States partly reflects harsh sentencing practices contrary to international law, Human Rights Watch said today in its World Report 2013. The sentencing practices include disproportionately long prison terms, mandatory sentencing without parole, and treating youth offenders as adults. The US maintains the world’s largest incarcerated population, at 1.6 million, and its highest per capita incarceration rate.

    Human Rights Watch research in 2012 found that the massive overincarceration includes a growing number of elderly people whom prisons are ill-equipped to handle, and an estimated 93,000 youth under age 18 in adult jails and another 2,200 in adult prisons. Hundreds of children are subjected to solitary confinement. Racial and ethnic minorities remain disproportionately represented in the prison population.

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    1. Against the TrollsJune 22, 2013 at 11:10 PM

      Now you are quoting a group that even its own founder(amongst many others) has accused of being antisemitic and biased. Nice one TROLL.

      Delete

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