I recently asked Dr. Asher Lipner whether he would have handled the Elon case differently. Below is his reply which he has given me permission to publish.
Dr. Lipner wrote:
I would have publicized it as soon as I knew there was Ragalyaim Ladavar and avoided two things.
1. Elon's ability to hurt more people.
2.The Chillul Hashem of people seeing that Orthodox Jews prefer to cover up their mistakes rather than protect people. Not only do they not care about others....they don't even care about their own children. Like a police officer in Baltimore said "Jewish parents are worse than Catholics. They protect their rabbis rather than their own children." We are back to the times of Aycha where "the hands of righteous women cooked their own children."
Secondly, if, bedieved, I had screwed it up, I certainly would not BRAG about it the way Rabbi Lichtenstien did, saying that "our first most important priority was to keep it quiet and protect the reputation of the alleged sinner". First of all, I'm not sure why this is a priority at all, other than the real reason that all rabbis want to protect the image of other rabbis because it protects their own power. Secondly, it certainly is not the first priority of a civilized people, especially ones who are commanded by their G-d to protect innocent people, save lives, love neighbors, heal the sick, stop sin, pursue justice, speak the truth, etc.
Let's make this simple: Hillel said that you should not do to others what you don't want them to do to you. That's the WHOLE Torah. If the Takana gang had family members who were going to Elon over the past four years for "private counseling" (no matter where he had been 'banished' to) would they have allowed that to go on undeterred? I think not. I suspect that they would warn their own friends and family to stay far, far away. How could it be then that these "Torah observant" Jews, refrained from warning OTHER people's friends and family's? The letter published by one mother of a victim full of shock and pain was enough for anyone with an ounce of compassion to realize the travesty that was done in Israel. Rabbi Lichtenstien actually cried publicly about what? About his mistake? About the people who were traumatized? Nope. About the fact that he was forced to do a mitzvah! That he had to stop the rasha and protect innocent people.He should have been making a seudas hoda'a that he had such a zchus. The Torah, once again, has been distorted, twisted and bastardized into some form of Avoda Zara that is cruel and inhuman. What is practiced today is barbaric. It is not Judaism. It is a much more dangerous thing than Reform or Conservative Judaism which do not claim to be the mesorah.
On the positive side, at least Takana did eventually admit the truth because it was about to be exposed by the secular press. This shows they still maintain a degree of "busha" one of the three midos that define a Jew. There is therefore some hope for the Modern Orthodox to get back on track, learn from this fiasco and not let it happen again. The Agudah Gedolim on the other hand....not so much. They have no busha left. None. They will never admit they goofed with Tropper. I told Rabbi H. that "Daas Torah means never having to say you're sorry." He corrected me. "Daas Torah means you never did anything wrong to begin with."
Dr. Lipner wrote:
I would have publicized it as soon as I knew there was Ragalyaim Ladavar and avoided two things.
1. Elon's ability to hurt more people.
2.The Chillul Hashem of people seeing that Orthodox Jews prefer to cover up their mistakes rather than protect people. Not only do they not care about others....they don't even care about their own children. Like a police officer in Baltimore said "Jewish parents are worse than Catholics. They protect their rabbis rather than their own children." We are back to the times of Aycha where "the hands of righteous women cooked their own children."
Secondly, if, bedieved, I had screwed it up, I certainly would not BRAG about it the way Rabbi Lichtenstien did, saying that "our first most important priority was to keep it quiet and protect the reputation of the alleged sinner". First of all, I'm not sure why this is a priority at all, other than the real reason that all rabbis want to protect the image of other rabbis because it protects their own power. Secondly, it certainly is not the first priority of a civilized people, especially ones who are commanded by their G-d to protect innocent people, save lives, love neighbors, heal the sick, stop sin, pursue justice, speak the truth, etc.
Let's make this simple: Hillel said that you should not do to others what you don't want them to do to you. That's the WHOLE Torah. If the Takana gang had family members who were going to Elon over the past four years for "private counseling" (no matter where he had been 'banished' to) would they have allowed that to go on undeterred? I think not. I suspect that they would warn their own friends and family to stay far, far away. How could it be then that these "Torah observant" Jews, refrained from warning OTHER people's friends and family's? The letter published by one mother of a victim full of shock and pain was enough for anyone with an ounce of compassion to realize the travesty that was done in Israel. Rabbi Lichtenstien actually cried publicly about what? About his mistake? About the people who were traumatized? Nope. About the fact that he was forced to do a mitzvah! That he had to stop the rasha and protect innocent people.He should have been making a seudas hoda'a that he had such a zchus. The Torah, once again, has been distorted, twisted and bastardized into some form of Avoda Zara that is cruel and inhuman. What is practiced today is barbaric. It is not Judaism. It is a much more dangerous thing than Reform or Conservative Judaism which do not claim to be the mesorah.
On the positive side, at least Takana did eventually admit the truth because it was about to be exposed by the secular press. This shows they still maintain a degree of "busha" one of the three midos that define a Jew. There is therefore some hope for the Modern Orthodox to get back on track, learn from this fiasco and not let it happen again. The Agudah Gedolim on the other hand....not so much. They have no busha left. None. They will never admit they goofed with Tropper. I told Rabbi H. that "Daas Torah means never having to say you're sorry." He corrected me. "Daas Torah means you never did anything wrong to begin with."
Wow.
ReplyDeleteWho's Rabbi H?
While I certainly am in no position to have an opinion on the way that these things should be dealt with practically, the statement:
ReplyDelete"First of all, I'm not sure why this is a priority at all, other than the real reason that all rabbis want to protect the image of other rabbis because it protects their own power"
is remarkable: This matter is an explicit gemara (Menachos 99b):
ואמר ריש לקיש תלמיד חכם שסרח אין מבזין אותו בפרהסיא שנאמר וכשלת היום וכשל גם נביא עמך לילה כסהו כלילה
Firstly, was there any involvement with children in this case? I did not read that. Secondly, let's say it was only one person with an accusation. That is enough that it should be publicized when even the attorney general and the police refused to do an investigation? Sometimes there are false accusations. I'm not sure why with ONE accusation, it should immediately be made public? They took a precaution by taking away his rabbinical position. But do you ruin someone publically because of one accusation? I'm not so convinced.
ReplyDeleteThis needs peersum.
ReplyDeleteMo'ed Koton (17a) There was once a certain Collegiate whose reputation was objectionable. Said Rab Judah, How is one to act? To put the shammetha on him [we cannot], as the Rabbis have need of him [as an able teacher]. Not to put the shammetha on him [we cannot afford] as the name of Heaven is being profaned. Said he to Rabbah b. Bar Hana, Have you heard alight on that point? He replied: ‘Thus said R. Johanan: What means the text, For the priest's lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the law at his mouth; for he is the messenger of the Lord of Hosts?5 [It means, that] if the Master is like unto a messenger of the Lord of Hosts, they should seek the law at his mouth; but if [he be] not , they should not seek the law at his mouth’. [Thereupon] Rab Judah pronounced the shammetha on him. In the end Rab Judah became indisposed. The Rabbis came to enquire about him and that man came along with them. When Rab Judah beheld him he laughed. Said the man to him: Not enough for him that he put upon that man [me] the shammetha, but he even laughs at me! Replied he [Rab Judah]: I was not laughing at you: but as I am departing to that World [beyond] I am glad to think that even towards such a personage as you I showed no indulgence. Rab Judah's soul came to rest.6 The man [then] came to the College [and] said, ‘Absolve me’. Said the Rabbis to him, There is no man here of the standing of Rab Judah who could absolve you; but go to R. Judah Nesi'ah7 that he may absolve you. He went and presented himself to him. Said he to R. Ammi: ‘Go forth and look into his case; if it be necessary to absolve him, absolve him’. R. Ammi looked into his case and had a mind to absolve him. Then R. Samuel b. Nahmani got up on his feet and said: ‘Why, even a ‘separation" imposed by one of the domestics in Rabbi's house was not lightly treated by the Rabbis for three years; how much more so
ReplyDeleteIn plain English please? ;)
ReplyDeleteAt least in this case DR Lipner is behaving like Vicky Polin, he has his heart in the right place but his acts are extreme and his reaction is hysterical.
ReplyDeleteFirst, he call the rabbis of Takana "gang", he lost the argument by using "name calling", he would not like if I call his gedolim gang of fools.
The facts so far are: Takana forbid him from giving "private counseling" to anybody so why he does Lipner say that Takana let him (Elon) give "private counseling", the reason Takana publicize it is because he started to give "private counseling".
Can Lipner show a media source where is says that the media was going to write about it and that was the reason Takana reacted ?
Media reports say that the General Attorney and the police refused to investigate so Takana did the best he they can and send him to "galut".
Also, media reports say that Takana had only one (which is one too many) complain when they made their decision.
Lipner should praise Takana or at least stays quiet until more details will come up. In any case is way too early to call the subject of the scandal "rasha"
Lipner would be better of turning his attention to the molesters in his back of the woods than criticizing people who actually are doing something about abuse.
I guess Lipner hangs around too much with Vicky Polin so he adapted her style.
The Takana group was the first I am aware of to deal with serious issue of abuse openly in the Torah community.As anything new they will learn to improve their functioning.
ReplyDeleteDr.Lipner loses his 'objective' critique by calling them a 'gang.'
They in fact went to the attorney general and tried to get the victims to go to the police.
R.Eidensohn brings the famous and appropriate Gemara in Moed Katan.
ReplyDeleteIn fact R.Elon was told to stop teaching in public.
I don't know who Dr Lipner is, or where he stands.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at Takana, they have been crticised from many sides:
The Elonites attack them for their "false accusations" against M. elon.
R' Haim druckman criticised them for exposing this affair, even if it is true!
Some meshugaim even sent death threats to R' Lichtensitein -may they be smitten for such things!
On the other side, people are crticising Takan for nto going to the police (even tho there is not a criminal case to take to the police).
Does doc Lipner know what actually occurred?
It seems that Elon is a bisexual, and had gay relationships with some gay or bisexual men.
When a Halachic arbitrator is atatcked from opposite sides for doing too much and too little, you know that they have made a balnced decision!
I think that things are being said that are not accurate.
ReplyDeleteFirst, it was more than one complaint, it was many, and since the publicity more have emerged.
Second, Rav Lichtenstein and the others have said many times that their primary goal was to remove the threat. This is why they set the condition of no private counseling, and this is why when that condition was broken they outed him.
Third, the early cases at least were all with students that were above age of consent, and the legal case would have been very difficult. I've heard from people in the prosecutors office that there is a tremendous value in what Takana did because there are many cases where damage is being done but legal recourse is shakey.
The issue of consenting adults is not relevant here. The law in Israel is that relationships between teacher-student or officer and subordinate are mandated offences.
ReplyDeleteIf Takana had gone to the police they would have been required to investigate the mattter. By going to the Attorney General they got a response that the matter could not e won in court and therefore it was dropped.
If Takana had gone to the police they would have been required to investigate the mattter. By going to the Attorney General they got a response that the matter could not e won in court and therefore it was dropped.
ReplyDelete-------------------------------------
Dear DT,
when was th last time a senior T'Hachamim went to the police for such a thing? Is it precedented in halacha?
I am talking across the spectrum of Orthodoxy.
Dr Lipner is critical of all the gedolei Torah, and begrudgingly gives takana some credit for taking some action.
Compare to the situation of 10 years ago.
So you are saying that rather than go to the Attorney general, they should have gone to the police instead? The AG is a higher authority than the police!
ReplyDeleteAlso you fail to note that the AG DID send the case to the police but sent it with his own personal recommendation not to pursue it further (not takana's recommendation, M. Mazuz's recommendation). So who is to blame here, the Takanah group or the Israeli establishment for their failure to pursue this type of sexual offense with enough vigor?
If the rabbis go to the authorities and the authorities are unwilling to act or do not act (for whatever reason the authorities have), is it the fault of the rabbis? On the one hand you say rabbis should take the advice of the authorities. On the other hand you seem to say that the rabbis know better, and when the police refused, the rabbis should have outed the case anyway to destroy the person and take the vigilante justice into their own hands. But I thought this site's message is that the "vigilante" approach, which refers to rabbis handling it themselves "quietly" (ie making excuses for doing nothing about it), is the wrong approach, and that they must defer to the authorities? If you suggest rabbis know better than the police, you give credence to the Satmar view in this issue.
Since when do rabbis answer only to the police and the Attorney General?
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked the definition of a rabbi is who answers to a Higher Authority. If the AG found the facts to be accurate and the perpetrator to be a risk, but either failed in his duty to protect the public, or felt that he could not win a conviction, don't the rabbis have an obligation to alert the public about the danger?
Does our Torah not say "Lo Saamod Al Dam Reyecha?"
Can anyone explain to me what the heter is not to inform the public? I understand that many rabbis are vociferously critical of those who publicize these dangers, but I'm asking for a simple explanation of why? Why not play it safe? Why not immediately upon proof that someone is a danger, alert the community?
Is there some number of hundreds or thousands of innocent victims/traumatized individuals/suicides we are waiting for before we begin as a community to take the problem seriously?
I ask in all sincerity, not only as a rhetorical device. To me it really seems dvarim pshutim that the same psak of Rav Elyashiv that if you know of even one true case of abuse, you must inform the authroties because of "tikkun ha'olam" that the same thing would apply to infroming the community. If this inference is too obscure for some than I ask this: Does not reporting to the police usually mean public exposure of a problem? So if Rav Elyashiv recommended it as a Mitzvah, then could there possibly be anything wrong in other was of exposing the danger in cases where the police don't want to get involved?
Again, I'm not even talking about simple allegations of abuse. In those cases, at least in America professionals and in some cases clergy are mandated reporters but Rav Elyashiv is not as clear on what is called "Raglayim Ladavar". But in cases like this one, where the perpetrator admitted to the rabbis he abused and has a problem, what possible rationale can there be for keeping it quiet?
Can anyone explain to me what the heter is not to inform the public?
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what is your problem with takana rabbis (of whom you called gang), they sent him away so he would not consult people (after they consulted with the GA), when he continued to do it they publicize it.
You should put your attention at those rabbis who sweep abuse under the rug
"Last time I checked the definition of a rabbi is who answers to a Higher Authority."
ReplyDeleteRight, just like the Satmar claims. Forget about going to the police or authorities, the rabbi knows better and with his daas teyrah he can fix everything. No matter what the health professionals or the professional enforcers of the law have to say. Give me a break.
Dear Penguin,
ReplyDelete"They sent him away so he could not counsel people"
Where did they send him that there are no people to counsel? Mars? The moon? Prison?
He counseled plenty of people and did much more to them over the past four years. Haaretz is reporting more and more facts of the cover up such as the fact that the women on the Takanah council were disculded from involvement in this "highly sensitive case" even though they were the founders of Takana in the first place. One such advocate has resigned from Takana in protest because of the fact that it was not only swept under the rug from their own committee members.
If this isn't mafia boy's-gang behavior, what would you call it?
You need to stop sweeping under the rug all those who sweep abuse under the rug.
Seriously, how would you like it if your child was living in the place where Elon moved to and was being counseled with him now that he was "removed"? I know many parents who are quite upset about this. If it was my kid who was not protected, I would be too. I would expect a warning from those "in the know" no different than if someone was selling treif chickens, or fish with worms whatever the case may be. Am I really asking too much?
I also feel that the response of the Monsey rabbis who have declined to publicize all the dangers presented to the public by Rabbi Tropper and are content to, as you say, "send him away" with no concern about where he goes and which Jews and others he hurts there, is also an example of a gang-like behavior. They have their own agenda, and use their power to cover up abuse for as long as they can and when necessary, push the abuser onto some other locale. As long as its "Not in my backyard" who cares about the rest of the people in the world.
ReplyDeleteThere is no reason I can see that they could not have implored the Agudah Gedolim for example to condemn Rabbi Tropper interntationally the same way they have condemned: Rabbi Avi Weiss for making women into rabbis (and making women into prostitutes is ok?) Lipa Shmeltzer, the government of Florida for daring to execute a Jewish murderer, advocates for child abuse victims (who were called presumptous at the Agudah dinner) and anybody they don't like.
It is beginning to seem that they like abusers as long as they have beards and know Torah.
I also feel that the response of the Monsey rabbis who have declined to publicize all the dangers presented to the public by Rabbi Tropper and are content to, as you say, "send him away" with no concern about where he goes and which Jews and others he hurts there, is also an example of a gang-like behavior. They have their own agenda, and use their power to cover up abuse for as long as they can and when necessary, push the abuser onto some other locale. As long as its "Not in my backyard" who cares about the rest of the people in the world.
ReplyDeleteThere is no reason I can see that they could not have implored the Agudah Gedolim for example to condemn Rabbi Tropper interntationally the same way they have condemned: Rabbi Avi Weiss for making women into rabbis (and making women into prostitutes is ok?) Lipa Shmeltzer, the government of Florida for daring to execute a Jewish murderer, advocates for child abuse victims (who were called presumptous at the Agudah dinner) and anybody they don't like.
It is beginning to seem that they like abusers as long as they have beards and know Torah.