Haaretz
There is no clearer sign that leaders have lost control than when they and their people can no longer trust each other. This breach of trust is at the root of an increasingly frantic campaign on the part of ultra-Orthodox rabbis against the Internet. The latest edict, announced at a gathering of rabbis and senior Haredi educators this week in Jerusalem, demands that all parents enrolling their children in ultra-Orthodox schools sign a written commitment that their home computers are not connected in any way to the poisonous web.[...]
There is no clearer sign that leaders have lost control than when they and their people can no longer trust each other. This breach of trust is at the root of an increasingly frantic campaign on the part of ultra-Orthodox rabbis against the Internet. The latest edict, announced at a gathering of rabbis and senior Haredi educators this week in Jerusalem, demands that all parents enrolling their children in ultra-Orthodox schools sign a written commitment that their home computers are not connected in any way to the poisonous web.[...]
There seems to be confusion as to what the word 'orthodox' Jew really means.
ReplyDeleteTo be an 'orthodox' Jew is to be scrupulous in behavior. Moral, ethical and ritual behaviors are meant to be upheld in the highest and most sincere expressions of religious faith.
That said, to be an 'orthodox' Jew is to be open to new ideas and potential. To be 'orthodox' is not to look backward but rather to look forward. Torah is timeless, providing values for all time, allowing us to grow as societies advance and evolve.
Torah does not look backward. To be ;orthodox' is to embrace the future and all it's potebtial with the knowledge that Torah values will light the path of future possibilities.
This isn't just another hashkofah.
Much of the Muslim world looks backwards, seeking to shun reality and impose a darker time on it's people. They fear their own daas and thus ask that their people not think for themselves.
We are different. Torah gives us the tools to deal with reality and whatever we many face down the road. We are meant to think for ourselves. We are meant to assume responsibility for our lives and the decisions we make.
We are not meant to close our eyes and pretend that avoiding reality rather than making our lives and community better is what the RSO wanted from us.
We are not Muslims.
Growing up's derash was very inspirational until he began to denigrate another monotheist faith.
ReplyDeleteThere is no Torah basis for a Jew to ever denigrate Gerei Toshav, in fact we are to praise and help them.
Muslims are suffering from EXACTLY the same problems as Jews.
Both Muslims and Jews are struggling with leadership problems, a lack of quality religious education, the influences of an immoral society and extreme inundation from within by Christian missionaries who have quite successfully changed our own perceptions of our faith which is rapidly being shaped into an extremism, archaic cult.
I have been involved in anti Missionary work for the past 20 years. In the past 2 years, I have begun to also collect materials that Christian missionaries have planted in mosques and Islamic schools.
Guess what? the materials are the same, only slightly tailored for the audience and the language.
If you monitor frum fashion blogs along side of a hijabi fashion blogs, you will see the same missionaries commenting on both blogs. And often the comments are the same.
One example of this recently has been the idea that the sounds of a woman's shoes are not tznius.
This appeared as several comments (my Imam and my Rabbi said, the commentor having the same IP address, but two different ID's one as a haredi woman and one as a Muslim woman )on both Muslim and Jewish women's blogs at the same time.
Suddenly it was all over haredi circles that a woman must silence her shoes. My daughter visited a shul for a Bar Mitzvah recently and was told that her shoes were "not tznius" because they could be heard as she walked.
One of the goals of Christian missionaries is to make both Islam and Judaism impossible to observe by introducing more and more extremism.
The women of both faiths are especially targeted because women raise children. If the women perceive that their faith is abusive and that they are being persecuted for being women, then they will leave and seek out a better lifestyle.
If you read what is being written by Christians about Orthodox Jewish women, you will see that Orthodox Judaism is being painted in the same light as Islam.
The laws for women in both faiths are essentially the same (separation during menstruation, modest dress, separation for prayers and public events, divorce initiated by husband, civil marriage with k'tab/ketubah, women do not testify in religious court, property laws and inheritance etc etc).
If you have been led to believe that Islam is cruel to women, then Judaism is the same because the laws are the same.
Christians twist both the Talmud and the Islamic writings to make it seem as though both religions are not only oppressive to women but also antagonistic to each other when neither is the case.
As both religions become more extreme (and more antagonistic toward each other and the Christian missionary blogs DO talk about dividing and conquering the individual sects), more and more members of these faiths will become either disillusioned and drop out or violent extremists with guns and bombs.
The OTD's and drop outs insure that in the next generation or two, there will be many new recruits for Christianity.
I would hope that we can fix some of our own problems without becoming Christianity's pawn in THEIR "Holy War" against 1.5 BILLION monotheists. It is a war that will destroy Jews and Judaism.
Jersey Girl-
ReplyDeleteI was not denigrating another monotheistic faith. I was making what are obvious and clear observations.
The fact remains that Islam today is a far cry from what it purports to be. Muslims today are discouraged to think for themselves.
The issue under discussion here and now is technology today.
Suppose a reasonable Muslim or imam got up and said, 'Maybe killing Jews isn't such a good idea'. How long do you think he'd keep his state paid job? In fact, as a part of job description he supposed to stamp out that kind of thinking from anyone in his 'kehillah'.
Further, suppose a Muslim goes into therapy and says, "I don't want to follow all these fatwas to kill anymore'. In those communities, that kind of thinking is dysfunctional. In those communities blind racism and bigotry is the le chatchela default position. Why? Because their 'leaders' religious and political, tell them so.
The charedi community is well on its way to that kind of thinking. Nazi uniforms on purim are acceptable but tzahal uniforms are assur. Is this what we want to become?
"One of the goals of Christian missionaries is to make both Islam and Judaism impossible to observe by introducing more and more extremism."
ReplyDeleteJerseyGirl,
You're stating that the drive toward increasing stringency in chumrot seen in Chareidi culture today is a result of social manipulation by Christian missionaries. This is an incredible claim, and extremely newsworthy if true. You're clearly hooked into anti-missionary work and have the knowledge base and resources to assemble a well-sourced article exposing these efforts, containing screenshots and URLs of relevant websites and the like. I would very much like to see you do it and, if R' Eidensohn can be convinced, have him post it up on this blog.
Your theory has a certain degree of internal consistency, but this is true for all good conspiracy theories. Until you provide extensive documentation and corroboration for your claims, and perhaps provide names of people in leadership positions in Jewish anti-missionary work who hold similar views, I'm simply not going to be convinced.
I've been having an interesting conversation on another WEB site that is geared towards those that have left Chareidi, be it Chassidsh or Yeshivish, society.
ReplyDeleteWhat troubles me most is the equation of Chumrah to Halacha.
The Rabbonim seem to put into peoples minds that the Web is the same as Chillul Shabbos. Ergo, the conclusion that folks arrive at if you want to use the Web, you may as well be Mechallel Shabbos.
This is really bad.
Ultimately, I fear the Web will have the same effect on Orthodox Judaism as the printing press did when Martin Luther launched his campaign against the Catholic Church.
Information and Education are very powerful and behave like water. You cannot stop it but you can manage it.
The first ray of hope I saw was at the symposium in Bnei Brak where there was a call for filters. This was the first time I can recall that an acknowledgment was made that the Web is ubiquitous and needs to be managed as opposed to simply banned.
Let us pray that our Gedolim come to the conclusion that one cannot stop water but one can build dams and canals to move it to a productive state from a destructive state.
Jersey Girl's having missed her medications this morning notwithstanding, I doubt there is a secret Chrisian war to cause us to distort our faith. There are 2 reasons for this:
ReplyDelete1) We need no help in distorting out faith from outsiders. We can do it just fine ourselves.
2) Chrisianity's biggest problem isn't missionizing, it's getting their home born to actually care about the religion.
At any rate,the problem in Chareidi society relates to the near complete disconnect between the leadership and the populace. Think about it. You have "gedolim" who don't read the newspaper, listen to the radio, watch the television or use the internet. Exactly where do they get their information on current events? From their helpers who have demonstrated, time and time again, that they have an agenda and given their leaders only that information that will lead to the successful implementation of that agenda.
Remember Lipa Schmelzer? Did even one signatory to the ban know the truth? No, because they relied on the malicious misinformation they were given.
Ever wonder why the Agudah still hasn't gotten around to properly ostacizing a former EJF head but has no trouble condemning Avi Weiss for his rabbit.... I mean rabba idea?
Anyone who doubts this should remember that Saddam Hussein's helpers convinced him he could beat the US in an open war. If they could do that...
Jersey girl - you take exception to Growing up's use of another religion in his/her argument, and then spend the rest of your submission talking about other religions. And you are mostly off topic.
ReplyDeleteINTERNET AND ORTHODOX - I believe that's what we are talking about. My grandmother, in her mid-90's (poo poo poo) remembers when telephones were just popping up in every home, and how the Rabbis of the day were also warning of the dangers to our spiritual well-being.
It is the easy way out to blame all of our ills on society at large. But that society is not going anywhere else too soon, so we, as the Orthodox community, had better figure out ways to live within society while not giving up our mesorah.
The answer is never banning everything which you don't understand or fear for its use. We don't ban bicycles and cars just because every day there are people who have accidents and die as a result of their usage. We educate people how to drive, rules of the road etc so that 99.99% of their usage is safe for all.
Our Rabbinic leadership are not wrong to warn of the dangers that lurk in the internet. But they are being poshai'ah if they are not educating young and old alike not only about those dangers, but why frum yidden should see those dangers as perilous for them.
We teach our kids from a young age that eating glass or other harmful substances can be fatal. Some of those substances look no different to the naked eye than candy or spices or drinks. And yet we are able to get that message across. We don't ban glass or cleaning solvents, nor do we hear any call to do so.
The biggest problem for the Orthodox today is not the internet. It is the failure of the last twenty years + to educate our own with yiras shomayim. Without that we are subject to all kinds of temptations and distractions.
I was speaking with my son's Rosh Yeshiva as he was completing high school and asking him about yeshivas in Eretz Yisrael. I asked him which yeshivas there had any dedication to teaching the boys yiras shomayim. He was silent for nearly a minute before responding "None." Either mussar is not being taught at all, or not being taught properly, or the mussar seforim are no longer relevant to the 21st century mind.
And those self-same Rabbonim of Eretz Yisrael are not facing the facts - our chinuch system is teaching lots of good Jewish stuff but not yielding good thinking Jewish kids. Or adults.
Jersey girl - you take exception to Growing up's use of another religion in his/her argument, and then spend the rest of your submission talking about other religions. And you are mostly off topic.
ReplyDeleteINTERNET AND ORTHODOX - I believe that's what we are talking about. My grandmother, in her mid-90's (poo poo poo) remembers when telephones were just popping up in every home, and how the Rabbis of the day were also warning of the dangers to our spiritual well-being.
It is the easy way out to blame all of our ills on society at large. But that society is not going anywhere else too soon, so we, as the Orthodox community, had better figure out ways to live within society while not giving up our mesorah.
The answer is never banning everything which you don't understand or fear for its use. We don't ban bicycles and cars just because every day there are people who have accidents and die as a result of their usage. We educate people how to drive, rules of the road etc so that 99.99% of their usage is safe for all.
Our Rabbinic leadership are not wrong to warn of the dangers that lurk in the internet. But they are being poshai'ah if they are not educating young and old alike not only about those dangers, but why frum yidden should see those dangers as perilous for them.
We teach our kids from a young age that eating glass or other harmful substances can be fatal. Some of those substances look no different to the naked eye than candy or spices or drinks. And yet we are able to get that message across. We don't ban glass or cleaning solvents, nor do we hear any call to do so.
The biggest problem for the Orthodox today is not the internet. It is the failure of the last twenty years + to educate our own with yiras shomayim. Without that we are subject to all kinds of temptations and distractions.
I was speaking with my son's Rosh Yeshiva as he was completing high school and asking him about yeshivas in Eretz Yisrael. I asked him which yeshivas there had any dedication to teaching the boys yiras shomayim. He was silent for nearly a minute before responding "None." Either mussar is not being taught at all, or not being taught properly, or the mussar seforim are no longer relevant to the 21st century mind.
And those self-same Rabbonim of Eretz Yisrael are not facing the facts - our chinuch system is teaching lots of good Jewish stuff but not yielding good thinking Jewish kids. Or adults.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/world/europe/25iht-poland.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
ReplyDeletewhile i don't think the internet will create another wave of haskala, i do think it is creating a more moderate hareidism. one that is less beholden to views of gedolim, and that is more open to secular studies and going to work. perhaps some would call it haskala, i wouldn't. just the idea that beghadrei hareidim and kikar hashabat and are still running and posting steady unique clicks, and etrog reopening shows that beneath the surface israeli gedolim aren't listened to. lets face it Rav Elyashiv's influence is very limited.
ReplyDeleteWhat I always found interesting is that of all the people I know, people in chinuch are the least familiar with the Internet (and computers in general). Even though most schools need some level of Internet access (since most gov't forms are online) Rebbeim and principals generally have their secrateries go online for them. As a group, mechanchim probably have less of a need to be online than the general population, and so can't seem to understand why families need it. And of course, religious mechanchim are the main opinion-setters in any religious area. I think this largely explains the complete disconnect between the upper-echelons of the religious world and the masses.
ReplyDelete