Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,
I am writing to seek your advise and your opinion on a situation I find myself in. I am a frum 36 years old woman living in New York. I came here to learn in a seminary and to find a shidduch. I have been looking for three and a half years, the process has been very very very hard and telling on me emotionally. I was very reluctant to go on line but did at the advise of an esteemed and respected rabbi in my community. There I met a very nice man that I am interested in marrying. The problem is that he is a Cohen and I am a convert. I know that this a forbidden marriage but have also learned that if the marriage were to take place it would be valid and the children would be legitimate. I understand as a religious and learned Jew that this in contrary to Torah but our situation is not an easy one.
On his part, he is over 40 and never married and is on the brink of marrying outside, chas v'shalom, since it is very hard for him to find a woman that is halachically permitted to him. Most of the woman offered to him given his age are divorced or not religious that have been with non-Jews. He comes from a traditional family and wants only to marry a religious woman.
On my part, I feel that I can no longer go through countless dates that amount to nothing. If I am contemplating such a thing it is because I look back at the quality of men that has been available to me and it is very hard to say no to this very nice man. Because of my age I get offered divorced men with issues and many children and little money. I have also had to deal with so many men that really really are not serious about marriage even though they go out on shidduchim. Many of the men I have met have seriousmental problems and some have been just very very simple and its hard for me to relate. This past summer I had such a crisis in shidduchim that I felt that I would just drop it all. I have lived a strict haredi life for almost six years now, have davenedand done all the right things but I feel I cannot take this anymore, Iwill be 37 this summer and my fertility is decreasing everyday now.
I want to ask you if it is at all possible to get a heter for such a marriage being that both our situations are very hard.
I am writing to seek your advise and your opinion on a situation I find myself in. I am a frum 36 years old woman living in New York. I came here to learn in a seminary and to find a shidduch. I have been looking for three and a half years, the process has been very very very hard and telling on me emotionally. I was very reluctant to go on line but did at the advise of an esteemed and respected rabbi in my community. There I met a very nice man that I am interested in marrying. The problem is that he is a Cohen and I am a convert. I know that this a forbidden marriage but have also learned that if the marriage were to take place it would be valid and the children would be legitimate. I understand as a religious and learned Jew that this in contrary to Torah but our situation is not an easy one.
On his part, he is over 40 and never married and is on the brink of marrying outside, chas v'shalom, since it is very hard for him to find a woman that is halachically permitted to him. Most of the woman offered to him given his age are divorced or not religious that have been with non-Jews. He comes from a traditional family and wants only to marry a religious woman.
On my part, I feel that I can no longer go through countless dates that amount to nothing. If I am contemplating such a thing it is because I look back at the quality of men that has been available to me and it is very hard to say no to this very nice man. Because of my age I get offered divorced men with issues and many children and little money. I have also had to deal with so many men that really really are not serious about marriage even though they go out on shidduchim. Many of the men I have met have seriousmental problems and some have been just very very simple and its hard for me to relate. This past summer I had such a crisis in shidduchim that I felt that I would just drop it all. I have lived a strict haredi life for almost six years now, have davenedand done all the right things but I feel I cannot take this anymore, Iwill be 37 this summer and my fertility is decreasing everyday now.
I want to ask you if it is at all possible to get a heter for such a marriage being that both our situations are very hard.
I want to ask you if it is at all possible to get a heter for such a marriage being that both our situations are very hard.
ReplyDeleteIt is quite possible to get a heter insamuch as many cohanim today are not cohanim at all.
Your best course of action is to ask a reliable Rav, not some shul rabbi or a guy who "learned a lot."
If you don't know a Rav qualified to answer this question, sign up for a "throw away" email address and post it here, so people can forward names and leads to you.
שבועה טוב
P.S. Don't let the louts who say converts are innately evil get you down.
I'm with Daniel. Heterim are to be had.
ReplyDeleteThe only issue I would ask you to consider is why an over 40 year old healthy man has never been married- to anyone, ever. From where I sit, those are the bigger questions.
I don't want to discourage you- but examining those kinds of questions can only be a most worthwhile effort.
Re:" I would ask you to consider is why an over 40 year old healthy man has never been married"
DeleteI think the same questions probably arose in his life when he was 30, 35 and people continuing to say things like that hindered him further -It's also VERY easy for a person to withdraw and give up for periods of time. Maybe he was not yeshivish and had career goals that did not work out in his 20's and he had to find himself. Then when it came to Shadchanim they might not have valued him as much -and since every eligible woman wants a BEN TORAH -or- a professional. It's easy to understand how this could happen. Also by the time a man is over 30 he notices the eligible observant women are married or divorced.
I ma a Kohen and got married at 31 and let me tell you it was scary.
My question is also... Why would you want to marry a man who is an the brink of marrying outside? CVS.
ReplyDeleteGood men are out there. I know its hard... My wife has a friend who searched for almost 20 years and, B"H, she finally found her bashert last year.
Emunah...
Online works very well, by the way. Just remember to keep everything in accordance with halacha. A good way to handle things is to exchange a few emails, ask for a reference, and then have a friend of yours call the reference. Have her ask that reference for another "unsuspecting" reference. The second reference is the one your friend should listen to when advising you. -- Don't just meet men from the internet for dates. (I hope that makes sense.)
The major part of it is whether the gentleman is FFB or just "from a traditional family". There are quite a few poskim who hold that a BT doesn't have to keep Kedushas Kehuna. Ask a serious Rov.
ReplyDeleteI know of rabbis that have married "kohanim" to gerim because as the Rabbi notes, the lineage is more suspect now. In particular, many people who claim to be "kohanim' do not have family histories of valid witnesses (if you look at the requirement for a valid witness, it's actually quite strict. R. Moshe Feinstein says that someone who causes second hand smoke is not a valid witness!) So if we don't believe their testimonies, then why be so strict about their kohanic status? On the other hand if the kohen has siblings and the siblings consider themselves valid kohanim, then your marriage could cause some tension because it's a slap in the face to the side of the family that believes they are kohanim (and you are basically saying they are all invalid). in short a Rav should be consulted.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this question being posted for responses to the unqualified online public?
ReplyDeleteHow much money does this woman want her husband to posses? (She complains the ones she sees have "little money.")
"he is over 40 and never married and is on the brink of marrying outside, chas v'shalom, "
ReplyDeleteI agree that it is a very big red flag that he is over 40 and never married.
A bigger problem is that "he is on the brink of marrying outside".
Why would any woman who is sincere in her commitment to Judaism want date a man who does not even care if he marries Jewish? He would have to be completely apathetic to Jewish life and observance if he would even consider such a thing.
The prohibition of marriage between a Kohen and a convert is d'oraita (from the Written Law).
A Kohen would have to find out that he is not a Kohen in order to marry a convert. And in that case, the many women who are already being offered to him (whom you say are divorced or who have been with non Jews) would be permitted to him.
If he has the mesorah in his family that he is a Kohen, then, when dealing with a d'oraita prohibition (ie Kohen and convert), I do not know of any Orthodox Rabbi who would perform such a marriage.
In the case of a prohibition that is d'Rabbanim (ie. a woman who has been with a Gentile, a woman with a Gentile father, a woman who was married before in the Reform or Conservative etc,) I have heard of Rabbeim finding heterim that would permit them to marry in the case of an older Kohen.
I do not agree with you that it is a hardship to be married to a man who is over 40, who has many children and little money.
I am quite happy being married to such a man!
A sincere giyoret should not even consider to date a Kohen since the Rabbeim who perform conversions make it quite clear to female candidates that they are forbidden to date a Kohen.
The fact that you would even consider to violate this very serious halacha that was surely thoroughly impressed upon you at the time of your conversion, along with the fact that you would also consider dating a man who is so non religious that he would date Gentiles makes me question your statement "I have lived a strict haredi life for almost six years now,"
Also, it is well known that on Frumster for example, you can check a box that excludes Kohanim from your searches and also excludes your profile from searches performed by Kohanim.
It should not be possible for you to meet a Kohen on Frumster, Mit Mazel or any other frum dating site.
And if you are a "strict haredi", as you describe yourself, I cannot imagine what you would be doing on a dating site for non religious Jews or non Jews as these are well known to be for "players" and not serious candidates for marriage.
I am amazed that people are offering heterim here. There is no simple heter for such a case (unfortunately - because it is a very real problem and would be great if there was a simple halachic solution!)
ReplyDeleteOne of the most famous conservative piskei halacha from the '60s was allowing Cohanim to marry divorcees. If you read it you will see that there is very little halachic basis, and mostly social issues. But even that teshuva rejects the idea that Cohanim nowadays are not real Cohanim as basis for heter. Even a quick search on the web shows that Conservative Rabbis admit that Orthodox Rabbis do not allow such a thing - look at this answer from Ask The Rabbi. Since when did Daat Torah become more lenient than the Conservatives?
If this person is frum, and his father (and brothers) are known to be Cohanim it is really not simple to decide they are not. Investigating back through history to try to passul them is not something that I would suggest. It would do more damage than help.
Obviously every case is unique, and should be discussed with a competent halachic authority. Nobody should pasken from something they read on the internet. There may be heterim. But the default halachic answer has to be that it is forbidden.
I hate being the voice of stringency, and maybe in America things are different, but I am very surprised that the first two comments on 'Daas Torah' seem to go against a Torah halacha.
Outside the religious world most people don't get married until at least 30, often the men are 40 and the women are 30.
ReplyDeleteDaniel
ReplyDeleteyou are out of line, and giving this woman a false hope which is actually very insensitive - the reality is that there are Halachos which can appear to make life really difficult for some people, my heart goes out to this poor woman, but supporting her to violate normative halacha is NOT the way forward. No reliable Rav would subscribe to the course of action you are suggesting, it is therefore disingenuous to intimate as such.
I would be amazed if any big rabbi would posul a Cohen just because he wanted to marry a giores.
ReplyDeleteJust like the daughters of Gad, Hashem is telling you marry somebody you love but only love the right kind of person.
This seems hard but really it's not. The chazaka that a man is a Cohen is quite strong. You can't undo it with the wave of a rabbi's pen.
Follow halacha and you'll be happy.
No one here on the internet can answer this question.
ReplyDeleteHere you get mostly answers from anonymous people hiding behind a nickname (as myself).
The answers you might get might be right, or wront, you have no guarantee for seriousness.
I have followed this blog for two years and found many occasions where sources were quoted in wrong contexts.
I would say that the overall "rabbinical skills" of people posting here, including the blog owner, are not up to scratch.
That's why the blog's name is a bit misleading.
Do not try to get a heter on the internet, contact a Rabbi you can trust.
PS: If you want to know what the blog owner thinks about marrying Gioret, you might want to read this post and the comments he published there.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/02/should-one-child-marry-ger.html
DANIEL
ReplyDeleteTheir is a posuk in the torah,that says to listen to the judges in all your gates...i.e (the rabbis)
They proscribed against marriages with certain individuals among klal yisrael.
They are widows, divorcees,and giyuress.
The presumption of someone being a cohan goes to the individual and their familys.
I personally know a rabbi who was attacked , because he found out that him and his family were not cohanim.
He had to go back and tell all those who had pidyon haben done by him to have it redone.
It is this presumption,that we give people claiming to be cohanim the first aliyah.
No posek would give a heter like this woman is seeking
L,CHAYIM
@conservadox
ReplyDelete"along with the fact that you would also consider dating a man who is so non religious that he would date Gentiles makes me question your statement "I have lived a strict haredi life for almost six years now,"
Why are you so judgemental?
You know full well: the more chareidi, the less they accept Gerim as spouses (see the various discussions on this blog, the newes being http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/02/should-one-child-marry-ger.html
So in principle, what you saying is: stick to the persons who do not want to marry you, and you will be happy.
I understand that dispair is looming after 6 years of hareidi life and no adequate partner in sight.
Actually I have 20 years of orthodox life on my active, and no adequate partner in sight.
Now I have given up. No favours, please.
But retrospectively I would say that my mistake was to concentrate too much on frum people, who are inherently racist against my likes.
This is from Yechezkel Ch.44
ReplyDeleteכב וְאַלְמָנָה, וּגְרוּשָׁה, לֹא-יִקְחוּ לָהֶם, לְנָשִׁים: כִּי אִם-בְּתוּלֹת, מִזֶּרַע בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְהָאַלְמָנָה אֲשֶׁר תִּהְיֶה אַלְמָנָה, מִכֹּהֵן יִקָּחוּ. 22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away; but they shall take virgins of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that is the widow of a priest.
Does the halacha today allow a Cohen to marry a widow of another Cohen?
I am a Cohen of the baal tshuvah (become observant in my twenties) variety and I went through this. I would loved to have married several of the converts I met. I went to poskim (rabbinic authorities) all over the world and could NOT get permission to marry a ger or anyone else forbidden to a Cohen. Eventually, after much suffering, I found a women who was permitted to a Cohen and we married. A few months ago, I found the grave of my great, great grandfather who was frum and you'll never guess what appeared on his tombstone - Cohen hands and the word Cohen. Imagine the painful situation I'd be in if I had gone with a cheap exemption. A Cohen carries a three thousand year plus heritage. That's 3,000 years that his family has carried and passed on this great honor. Now, in the final days of the world, you don't want to be part of throwing it all away. The children of such a marriage would no longer be Cohanim. They would be what is called challalim. That is clear. You have to walk away. The only possibility here is if the evidence for his cohanis is very, very weak. What do you mean by 'traditional family?' Are they Torah observant? If so, sounds like there is no exemption. You need a very sound, mature, learned, strict posek (Torah authority) to decide this.
ReplyDeleteeddie, the rishonim read the passuk differently. the comma that you put before the last two words is placed properly. mikohen yikachu is to be translated as "from the kohanim there is a type [of kohen] that may marry [a widow]" hence a kohen hedyot may marry a widow but a kohen gadol may not. they do not read the passuk as one long sentence without the break to mean that a kohen may marry the widow of a kohen.
ReplyDelete"They would be what is called challalim."
ReplyDeleteThis would just mean that they cannot marry a cohen if they are girls.
But according to some opinions, a daughter of a ger cannot marry a kohen anyway.
So it would not really change much.
There are many FFB men who prefer to marry giyores. Especially divorced men because they are looking for someone totally different from their ex.
ReplyDeleteFind a better shadchan.
A giyores cannot marry a non religious man. Such a man will not keep kosher, Shabbos and family laws.
A giyores who does not observe the mitzvas is not a giyores.
Daniel
ReplyDeleteyou are out of line, and giving this woman a false hope which is actually very insensitive
Your not giving me the benefit of the doubt is out of line and insensitive. Pot meet kettle.
When I got engaged, my wife and I thought she was a בת לוי. Well, wouldn't you know, when our mesader kidushin and my rosh yeshiva in the course of working out the paperwork, started talking with my soon to be father-in-law on the day of our wedding. It came out he wasn't a Levy at all. It's just like I said, it takes an expert to suss out these matters.
The giyores who is asking this question can get her answer very quickly and thereby ease her pain. Only in your bizarre world is this insensitive.
BTW, haven't you ever met anyone named Cohen who wasn't a "Cohen" at all? I've met a few. It's really in the realm of possibility for a so-called Cohen to marry a Giyores.
You can't undo it with the wave of a rabbi's pen.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the wave of a pen or magic. It may be possible with an investigation by an expert.
Since when did Daat Torah become more lenient than the Conservatives?
ReplyDeleteBecause being stringent always means it's more in accord with the Torah.
l,chayim said...
ReplyDeleteDANIEL
Their is a posuk in the torah,that says to listen to the judges in all your gates...i.e (the rabbis)
Which posuk are you referencing
A giyores who does not observe the mitzvas is not a giyores.
ReplyDeleteThanks rabbi.
Oh, I can't believe I forgot this one!
ReplyDeleteI have a friend, who, while attending a Catholic University, spent a semester in Israel. While there, she converted to Judaism about a year before I did in the U.S. Well, guess what? She's married to a Cohen! Not only that, she's a בת כהן.
How? Well, about a year after her conversion, it came out that when her grandmother was dying, she was a Holocaust survivor who had been rescued by nuns. The grandmother, being an orphan, became a Roman Catholic and had told no one.
This survivor, when she saw that her granddaughter had converted to Judaism, told her her secret days before she died. Even more amazing, my friend's biological father who died while she was a young girl and had a name that did not sound Jewish had a secret too. It was revealed, after some research, that not only was he Jewish but he was a Cohen to boot! He and my friend's mother had no idea that they were both Jews when they married in a Catholic ceremony!
So, to all of you know-it-alls and Internet "rabbis"; as I've said before, leave it to the experts and I must add, to God to suss out these issues.
כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי נאם יהוה
" I have lived a strict haredi life for almost six years now, have davenedand done all the right things but I feel I cannot take this anymore,"
ReplyDeleteI think that may be the problem. Converts want to go and become Chareidi instead of Modern Orthodox but, the chareidi community, including it's single men does not accept us converts. Why don't you look at MO liberal and MO machmir on Frumster and ask for it on SYAS. I hope you're not on JDate. Those men are not so observant so you would find that clashing with your having lived Chareidi. You might want to loosen up since in order to get married you won't be able to marry Chareidi.
No offense (and you should go to a rav, not an ignoramus like myself or the random online community) but can I ask why you went on a date in the first place with a cohen? Who allowed that? And why? Other people commented that if you are committed to Judaism you wouldn't look at a guy who is considering marrying out chas veshalom, but I would say more to the point, if you are serious about Judaism, why did you go on a date in the first place with what you thought was a kohen if you knew that lechathila a giyoreth is forbidden to marry a cohen ? Why are you posting this to a public forum is a good secondary question, but I can see why that would be useful to get names of people who are very knowledgable and can address your difficult situation.
ReplyDeleteWhat adds to my question though is that you speak of "divorced men" who had problem this problem that that you do not want to deal with .... Well your situation is not exactly ideal, it's not as if you are 20 years old and a spring chicken (no offense), and so this comes with the territory. Why turn to something that is assur in Judaism (marrying a cohen) as an alternative? Are you committed to Judaism or not? Sometimes Judaism will be hard for you like it can be for all Jews at given times and in cetain situations. Judaism does not guarantee a perfect life or easy life. It doesn't mean that if something goes wrong or doesn't go your way it's an excuse to break Jewish law etc. You were never guaranteed that becoming a Jew would mean a life without problems. So divorced men with children and "little money" is better than doing a very serious issur against Judaism, isn't it?
Just some food for thought, I hope you will consider it, and I hope you don't perceive this as me making light of your situation, which I would not dare. I appreciate what you are going through and may it be Hashem's will that it will all work out for the best.
I have to agree with others who have pointed out above that the Chereidi are by and large deeply racist and will not ever consider marrying a convert or the child of a convert. Many will not even marry BTs. I know you've been told that Chereidi Judaism is the only "real" Judaism, but the vast majority of chumras they observe are recent innovations and simply do not represent normative historical Judaism at all. If you really want to marry, you're going to have to face reality and be tolerant of someone who is MO. There is little to no chance a chereidi will ever marry you. I'm sorry.
ReplyDeleteI know that this a forbidden marriage but have also learned that if the marriage were to take place it would be valid and the children would be legitimate. I understand as a religious and learned Jew that this in contrary to Torah but our situation is not an easy one.
ReplyDeleteActually this is not the case. The Shulchan Aruch 6:6:
A Kohen who marries one of [those women who are] unfit [for marriage to a Kohen, both he and is wife] are banned, and all those, who deal with them, are banned. [The Kohen and his wife are subjected to] similar stringent measures, until he divorces her.
The marriage would not be valid. The Kohen would lose his ability to have an Aliyah or to bless from the Dukhan. The community would be required to exclude you, and pressure you and him to divorce. In addition to the children being Challalim.
There are rare exceptions where heterim can be granted, but those cannot be discussed on an internet blog, because of the complexity involved. Those have to be done on a very personal level with a competent Dayyan. I would suggest contacting the Va'ad HaKohanim. However I would not hold out great hope for receiving such a heter, especially if the person has brothers who are religious Kohanim.
Any heter would be based upon him disqualifying his own Kohanut. This involves complex problems of speaking loshon hara on one's ancestors(most likely his own mother). If he has brothers they will most likely protest, and seek to invalidate his eidus on his mother, both to defend the reputation of their mother as well as to keep their status as kohanim.
I thought this post was about a giyores marrying a cohen. The Torah's pretty straightforward on this one. Just because the answer is "no" doesn't mean that that its racist. It's just the rules.
ReplyDeleteMy sister was raped by a Gentile
ReplyDelete(police officer) when she was a teenager. She had a child as a result and my parents raised the child as their own.
Several years later, my sister met a man whose last name was Cohen but who was not a Cohen. His father was observant and the story was that in Poland Jews could not marry so his father had the maiden name of his grandmother which was Cohen.
Two weeks before my sister was to marry this man, his Rabbi "found" some sort of "evidence" that he might possibly be a Cohen and refused to marry them.
I know of another couple who a Rabbi would not marry because the boy's last name was Aaron and the Rabbi felt he did not have enough evidence that he was not a Cohen.
Finally, the young man found his great grandfather's headstone which did not have "Cohen" on it and the Rabbi was satisfied. But the young man spent the days before his wedding in a cemetery in Queens looking for a grave that had not been visited in 20 years (the family had moved out of state).
Rabbis tend to be overly cautious in the case of Cohanim, even if the by himself does not believe he is a Cohen.
>A giyores who does not observe the mitzvas is not a giyores.<
ReplyDeleteWhat does that mean??? Once a person halachically becomes a Jew they can become a serial killer who eats their victims and yet they are still100% Jewish. WHY CAN'T FOLKS GET THAT STRAIGHT?
btw, my father claims he once three people named 'Cohen' working for him and all were black non-Jews.
Joseph2
btw, my father claims he once three people named 'Cohen' working for him and all were black non-Jews.
ReplyDelete___________________________
There grandpa was probably owned by a master named Mr. Cohen.
They proscribed against marriages with certain individuals among klal yisrael.
ReplyDeleteThey are widows, divorcees,and giyuress.
This is not entirely true. A widow who is not a Chalitza is permitted to marry a Kohen. In fact Even HaEzer 6:16 states that a woman whose husband died while in the process of divorcing her(but before he actually did) on account of infidelity is still eligible to marry a Kohen
If a woman has been rumored in the city that she behaves like a prostitute, we are not concerned about her. Even if her husband has driven her out because she has transgressed Jewish Law, or because of an abominable feature [that he has found in her], and [he] has died prior to divorcing her, she is permitted for marriage to a Kohen.
There are three types of women that are forbidden to marry a Kohen according to all opinions: a Giyoret, a Zonah, and a Divorcee.
In addition to those many poskim(though it is far from universal) hold that a Daughter of a Ger or Giyoret and a woman whose father was a non-Jew are also disqualified.
These sorts of issues really need to be handled by a Dayyan who is expert in these Halachot, and all actual questions should be referred to such a person, as they will involve very personal issues whose public revelation would not be tznua.
Coreection Gayle Astik etc:
ReplyDeleteI know five very charedi people in my neighborhood who are married to gerim. And I know gerim who are Rosh Kollel with their children married to the children of gedolim. And I know gerim that Maran Eliashiv was mesader kiddushim for their children to marry charedim.
Really.
The reason some gerim can't get accepted is unfortunately very simple: a ger who won't walk the walk and talk the talk is not going to make it. If you really do join them, the charedim will accept you. And I know there are some who won't marry anybody their grandmother didn't know their grandmother. So what!
But according to some opinions, a daughter of a ger cannot marry a kohen anyway.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds non-halachic; like an urban legend.
This sounds more authoritative:
If both parents are converts their daughter shouldn't marry a Cohen, if one of the parents is Jewish from birth she can (Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer 7:21). Their son can marry a daughter of a Cohen.
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=1593
What mekubalim has written is the most stringent position, which does not seem to account for lechatihila/bdiavad differences, as most of the rishonim do account for as per the gemaras on this issue. Nonetheless, you are not married yet! So your situation is lechathila! So his quote is rather fitting.
ReplyDeleteWhat mekubalim has written is the most stringent position, which does not seem to account for lechatihila/bdiavad differences, as most of the rishonim do account for as per the gemaras on this issue. Nonetheless, you are not married yet! So your situation is lechathila! So his quote is rather fitting.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost we psak by the Shulchan Aruch. That aside, considering that who a Kohen may or may not marry is primarily M'D'Oraitta there is not much room for B'dieved.
The meforshim make no argument on the issue that if a Kohen marries a woman that is forbidden to him he is placed in Cherem until he divorces her.
I am curious as to what b'dieved differences you think there are.
n my early 20s I married a non-Jewish women in a civil court ceremony. She later became interested in Judaism and wanted to convert. Problem was, my name is Cohen and I was raised to believe that I had that status.
ReplyDeleteBut I also knew that my paternal grandfather's surname was not "Cohen" and, like thousands of eastern European Jews, had the name Cohen bestowed upon him on Ellis Island by U.S. immigration officers. Remember, these immigrants could not speak English and came with documents written in a variety of languages and alphabets. If a name was just too darned difficult to transliterate into English, the name "Cohen" was often bestowed, as a sort of Jewish anyman's name (like Ploni in Shas, or Smith or Jones in English).
In any event, our case was referred to the well-respected poseik, Rav Dovid Cohen shlit"a (of Flatbush, who is also not a Kohain) who then consulted with the poseik haDor, Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l. Certain investigations were made and my wife's geirus and our kiddushin were approved. Parenthetically, I eventually became a ba'al teshuva, was directed to consider myself a "Yisrael" and to spell my name in Hebrew: kuf-alef-hey-nun (and not kaf-hey-nun).
Botton line: every case has its own particulars, especially in our assimilated American generation where yichus is problematic. BUT, as Daniel has correctly written, it is essential that only the most authoritative Rabbonim be consulted in these matters. A LOR (local Orthodox Rabbi) who is approached about this issue MUST have a poseik of stature to turn to.
"What mekubalim has written is the most stringent position, which does not seem to account for lechatihila/bdiavad differences, as most of the rishonim do account for as per the gemaras on this issue. Nonetheless, you are not married yet! So your situation is lechathila! So his quote is rather fitting.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost we psak by the Shulchan Aruch."
Not everyone does. That is your methodology, but not everyone is so robotic.
" That aside, considering that who a Kohen may or may not marry is primarily M'D'Oraitta there is not much room for B'dieved. "
Learn the gemaras associated with this. There is room because it is talked about in the rishonim since it is the mashmaot of the sugiyas...
ReplyDeleteNot everyone does. That is your methodology, but not everyone is so robotic.
Name me one Posek that doesn't.
Learn the gemaras associated with this. There is room because it is talked about in the rishonim since it is the mashmaot of the sugiyas...
I have, and there is not the wiggle room that you claim.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/02/15/world/AP-CB-Haiti-Americans-Detained.html?pagewanted=all
ReplyDeletePay attention to the part where it talks about this guy converting to Judaism.
This guy has been in the international news for the past 4 weeks or so.
He is in the news with pictures of him wearing a yarmulka.
Pay attention to the part where it talks about this guy converting to Judaism.
ReplyDeleteYep, he's Jewish, from a Catholic family. He regularly davened by Chabad in Santo Domingo.
It was tough reading what this. This is indeed the situation in the United States.Nobody has it tougher when it comes to shiduchim here than the Kohanim.Very common for these fellows to have to wait a long and bitter time to marry.All their chavrim are married and when they hit their late thirties whats out there are divorced ladies.They would gladly marry any decent convert,divorced person or a Baalas Tshuva but sadly many are pasul because when they were not frum they had biah with goyim.So the pool of even people to date is small and as they grow older its mamhish tiny.They are human beings with regular needs too.
ReplyDeleteI have seen two tshuvas which are not applicable to the boy who wrote in.The rav would be more familiar than myself with the kohen who married a convert(or was it a divorcee?) in a tshuva in the Igros Moshe and the MTJ Kollel put out a jubilee issue of tshuvas of poskim who are musmachim.Rabbi Fishilis gave me a copy and inscribed it for me.
There is one interesting tshuva from an Av Beis Din in Virginia I think who raises these following points.That kohanim are only bchezkas kohanim nowadays and that if a persons father, grandfather and greatgrandfather told him he was a kohen but they aren't frum or totally unlearned the fact that they were told this by these people is meaningless.Also names associated with Kehuna in the USA are also not indicative of anything since its a known fact that at Ellis Island officials stamped a lot of papers with names like "Katz" for instance because customs officials were too lazy or ignorant to get the name straight.Obviously everything needs to be examined on a case by case basis by the recognized poskim.
In my humble opinion I would advise this fellow to look in Eretz Yisroel because the pool for kohanim there is much greater there.We should be zocheh to dance at his chasena.
You need to find a reliable Rav who can guide you.
ReplyDeleteHow sad it is to read most of these comments - typical. Blame the victim as if there is so obviously something wrong with him not being married as he approaches age 40. I know all too many nice men who have been subjected to the terrible stage of shidduch that is NYC orthodox dating. Every detail is dissected, especially the financial. Expectations are completely out of whack.
ReplyDeleteWhat is worse is the hypocrisy. This is the reason for assimilation more than any other. It's not the Torah itself pushing away our young people - it's the thousands of d'rabanan and custom that people except as the immutable word of G-d. These days someone can make a kiddush and 50% of the people won't eat because they "only eat XYZ sh'chita" or trust some rav about kashrut. Whatever happened to the point that the importance of being a community and adam l'adam was far more important than these chumras that destroy the entire fabric of what a community is supposed to be about?
Shame on most of you. Instead of changing the rules (which we can't do supposedly because we have no sandhedrin) we desperately Rabbi shop for heterim and loopholes. And in the future when most things will become automatically controlled by electronic devices, that which was assur today will become a heter tomorrow and nobody will question the hypocrisy of how that which was absolutely assur somehow how wasn't.
People are lucky to find their bashert. During a time when lineage is absolutely uncertain, the need to even stigmatize something practically irrelevant is why this young man has decided that he'd rather not live depressed and that this tunnel vision is counterproductive. Hashem is probably crying about what has been done to Judaism.
Shame on most of you, blaming the victim. In a world full of warped values among the New York Orthodox, it must be the 40 year old man's fault that he never found a woman to marry that he truly loved and also had found the same in return. Perhaps this man is a musician and gives private lessons. It's a living, not lucrative, and certainly not good enough for most parents who expect the man to earn a far better living to support their shayne maidel in a lifestyle she's accustomed to living along with 4-5 children who will all go to Yeshiva. On his salary, he'd be lucky to afford 1 child, perhaps 2! Not good enough!
ReplyDeleteI remember going to a shabbos kiddush and seeing 30% of the people there not eating, perhaps just having some wine and soda. This is because they didn't trust the hechsher that was in the Young Israel. They only eat shchita from their Rav. These chumrahs have destroyed the fabric of our society, where our own Rebbeim have forsaken the ultimate vital necessity of keeping the bein adam l'adam for chumrote that are completely bein adam l'makom. Hashem himself is crying watching our own Orthodox Jews creating unnecessary subdivisions in the belief like any of it will get themselves into a better place in Shamayim.
Most lineage has been lost back to the Kohanim. Such a marriage wouldn't be a willful violation. We should not be doing what always happens - the desperate search for a heter or Rabbi Shoppping in order to get the answer we want and know is a total rationalization. It's as bad as the real human hair sheytl. The man has decided that the hypocrisy maybe be too much to deal with - listening to all of you blaming him for being single.