sb's comment "World of Geirim - IV Seeing both sides":
DT: "Before addressing your other points could you explain your positive response to these posts while Michal and Gioret have viewed them asattacks on them?"
I don't know what to explain. You seem nterested in the truth and exploring tough issues in a sensitive andhonest way.
DT: "Would you mind writing a post about this?
Describe a little about your background. What your expectations were?What possible solutions do you see?
If in fact this is somethingwhich you think is painful but understandable - do you think it should be mentioned clearly to prospective conversion candidates?"
Inthe interest of anonymity, I don't know if I would write a whole post. If you could give me guidelines on how to write a post without givingaway who I am, I could do it.
I'll post a bit here, and I'll keep it vague: My background is that my father is Jewish, mother not. I have learned for quite a few years in 3 yeshivas, the last two "mainstream," in both Israel and the US.
I didn't really have anyexpectations. I realized that the Torah is true and I realized that things might be difficult but it didn't matter.
As for the last two questions, I can't suggest solutions since I don't understand the problem. I have never heard a cogent answer as to why being a convert,or a bt, is considered such a bad thing in terms of shidduchim. The thing is that most (all?) ffb families would take a far less accomplished fbb over a far more accomplished ger/bt. From this it seems that it is some sort of intrinsic issue. This doesn’t make sense to meand I’m still trying to figure it out or hear an answer from someone.
Maybe it’s the Gemara you referenced in Berachos (and also in Arvei Pesachim) about not marrying a giyores, along with the b’nei niddahissue for BT’s? I just have a hard time believing that everyone knows those gemaras and that they are so makpid about them…Sometimes I think maybe it has to do with a "What will my friends/family think" type of thing, but that seems too shallow for many of the people and it doesn't really explain it.
MT: “Didn't you tell me you were a BT, is there two "SB"s?”
I may have said that. I use BT sometimes as a blanket term for a person that didn’t grow up religious. Also, my father is Jewish and I actually thought I was Jewish growing up – reform Hebrew school etc – before I found out at some point that I wasn’t, so it feels like a technicality to me anyhow. I guess it wasn’t really technically correct, though. (Although if we are nitpicking the word "ba’al t’shuva" is not really correct for bts either.)
I think part of the reason people are reluctant to make shidduchim with BTs/Gerim is fear of the outsider. When you marry someone you are marrying not just that person, but you are becoming involved with their family. In the case of BTs and converts, that means the parents' future grandchildren will be involved with either OTD Jews or actual non-Jews. For people who live in the kind of tight bubble that certain communities generate, this is a great concern.
ReplyDeleteNote that in conventional terms I myself am a BT married to a convert. I don't support the view described above, I'm merely noting its existence.
""What will my friends/family think" type of thing, but that seems too shallow for many of the people and it doesn't really explain it. "
ReplyDeleteI believe this to be why and yes, these people are that shallow.
Re: BT, well, knowing that I was a gyoress, you'd think you would have just told me you were a product of patrilineage with intermarriage.
Anyhow... I have to run out now... so, my computer will be silent for a 7 or 8 hours....
"I think part of the reason people are reluctant to make shidduchim with BTs/Gerim is fear of the outsider. When you marry someone you are marrying not just that person, but you are becoming involved with their family. In the case of BTs and converts, that means the parents' future grandchildren will be involved with either OTD Jews or actual non-Jews. For people who live in the kind of tight bubble that certain communities generate, this is a great concern."
ReplyDeleteThis is what I was referring to when I spoke about "over-confidence in stability".
Those persons think that the "status quo" is the best conceivable world and that therefore, energy must solely be devoted to maintaining the status quo.
This has several adverse effects.
1) the status quo will not be preserved, even if you do not change anything... How can grandparents sustain 50-100 grandchildren each? If status quo is preserved, we go straight into the wall
2) I think that in general more openness to "osmosis" would benefit the Torah world. Because not only are Gerim and BT suffering from the negative prejudice and rejection a big part of the "Torah World" holds against them, not only is it against fundamental principles of the Torah, it is also about the FFB: not every FFB is cast to "fit the mold". Sending every boy to Yeshiva for 10+ (or 20+?) years is as if you wanted to make a little Mozart of every child in Chicago: some are gifted, others are not, some like music, others do not.
The overconfidence in stability is harmful for the whole "Torah world", not only for Gerim and Bts...
And, needless to say: when applying shallow, superficial criteria, the risk of error is quite great.
How many times did a girl marry the son of a great Rebbe or an "excellent learner" and found herself to be unhappy? (For more information consult blog "living in two languages")
I think the main reason that sincere people are hesitant to marry a ger or BT is the fear that they will return to their roots. That is what people do in times of stress.
ReplyDeleteI believe that is also a reason that we are supposed to push away a ger, to make sure that it is not an easy decision or process. The cognitive dissonance involved that prevents one from dropping the whole thing later in life and going back to atheism or another religion is much stronger if one spends years working at it and dropping their connections to their old lives. More so if they have to prove that they want to be migayor in the face of obstacles.
Another, smaller reason for hesitation is the lack of similar backgrounds that a BT/ger and an FFB have. This could make for a difficult marriage, and parents don't want that for their children.
Another is the possible watering down of yichus.
Another is hashkofo. Though a BT or ger may understand it intellectually, an FFB might have it in the very fiber of his/her being. Though what proper hashkofo is today is very unclear to me, especially with all the fighting going on.
To more than balance out all of the above is the mitzvah to love a ger. I mentioned all the reasons above because the question seemed to be what people's objections were. They may be objections, but the Torah countermands them.
BT's on the other hand...
Well, it depends who was mekarev them. We live in Monsey and used to have BT's over at our house from a yeshiva in the news these days. Most (not all) seemed to feel that since they were BT's everyone was there to serve them. They would have eating contests at our house, and we are not rich. Some would fill their plates with the meat from the chulent so there was not enough for anyone else. I remember some offering to help clean the table in the 80's and early 90's, but that stopped many years ago. Some would say they were tired after Shabbos lunch and ask for a bed!
I don't know where that attitude came from. But we couldn't afford it any more and started inviting non BT's over for Shabbos instead. It caused friction with the Yeshiva but reduced friction within our home.
This is not a BT bashing, but it is a bashing of that particular Yeshiva. Just like for a shidduch with an FFB one must check into yeshivas and background, one must do the same for the background of a BT and not just lump them all together. Keep in mind that if it is the best interest of the yeshiva's founder to have the shidduch to a respected FFB family, then that person is not a valid reference.
A lot of the entitlement mentality that you describe is typical in all circles today, FFB, BT, gerim, Jewish and non Jewish.
ReplyDeleteI have done many shidduchim and am an active shadchan. I find that to many FFB families men who are BT are often more desirable because the girl's family does not have to support them.
The Rav who advises us with regard to shidduchim told us ten years ago only to look for BT's to marry our daughters because they are much less likely to be extremely messed up as a result of attending yeshiva (ie. Motty Borger a"h).
A relative of mine who is involved with Invei Hagefen told me that the Asian/Pacific Islander (Oriental for A.B.) giyoros in that group are in so much demand and are asked for more dates than they can handle.
ReplyDeleteMy relative says is a fetish that some Orthodox men have.
I agree that entitlement is a big issue today. I live in an insulated environment, so I don't know much about non Jewish.
ReplyDeleteAs for the BT's from that Yeshiva, it seemed that their sense of entitlement came from their misguided belief that we were entertained by the stories of their pasts, of which they seemed very proud. The contrary was true; we did not wish our sons to envy them for being in that world, and we did not want our daughter to develop a yearning for something not in our culture.
As far as FFB entitlement, I think that comes from the parents. The parents in many cases did not wish to make the sacrifices that were once needed in order for the husband to sit in kollel. Then some of them made a lot of money and became yunge leit vicariously through their sons and sons in law.
Then it became a status symbol, being able to say, "I'm supporting all my children so they can sit and learn". But the point is the children aren't making any sacrifices by living that life, and so perhaps are not comparable to those who do or did make sacrifices to live that life. On the contrary. It is not unusual to hear the men say that it is just too hard to go out and earn a living. Many are getting good money from kollel, have their parents buy them houses, have the most beautiful clothes, baby carriages, and so forth and consider themselves maimus b'ohel. Compare their newlywed lifestyles with a couple with one spouse in med school or law school, or learning any profession.
And just to end this rant, I am even familiar with couples who mortgage their houses and sell their jewelry just to keep up appearances so that they can get a "good" shidduch for their children. It is not just the girl's parents who have to carry this comfortable lifestyle for the children. Many times the boy's family must agree to support the children as well. And support does not mean just keep them from starving.
When things get hard for the parents economically, we end up with a lot of women slaving away and a lot of men with no skills except verbal. Many of the men have no work ethic either. It's a disaster. No wonder so many are seduced by the money available from EJF and other such free lunches (just sell your integrity). The men have been emasculated, and changing direction now would be saying that the basis for their marriage was a mistake. That is unacceptable since it could destroy their lives, so they try to find the next handout or worse.
Our society is messed up.
Thank you, anonymous. Your rant about jewish life in closed groups is a nice counterweight to your rant about Gerim and BT...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:
ReplyDelete"I believe that is also a reason that we are supposed to push away a ger, to make sure that it is not an easy decision or process."
I think that halacha is only before the gerus, not after. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Anonymous:
"Another is the possible watering down of yichus.'
Can someone explain yichus to me? What makes it important? And since there have been so many gerim over the years, aren't all Jews fell of ger "blood"? Even if you can trace your gevaldiga yichus back to David Hamelech, from Rashi or the Maharal or whatever - do I even have to mention who he is descended from? It seems like it is a real inyan but I've never understood it.
MT:
"Re: BT, well, knowing that I was a gyoress, you'd think you would have just told me you were a product of patrilineage with intermarriage."
I'm sorry if I offended you by using bt as a general term and not specifying that I am "a product of patrilineage with intermarriage."
Yichus is like onions, the best part is in the ground.
ReplyDeletesb said...
ReplyDelete"Anonymous:
"I believe that is also a reason that we are supposed to push away a ger, to make sure that it is not an easy decision or process."
I think that halacha is only before the gerus, not after. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Anonymous:
"Another is the possible watering down of yichus.'
Can someone explain yichus to me? What makes it important? And since there have been so many gerim over the years, aren't all Jews fell of ger "blood"? Even if you can trace your gevaldiga yichus back to David Hamelech, from Rashi or the Maharal or whatever - do I even have to mention who he is descended from? It seems like it is a real inyan but I've never understood it."
===================================
Please do me a favor and read what I wrote in context.
The main topic of discussion included the question of what people might have against marrying a ger or giyores. I listed the reasons that I have heard in my life. Though at the end I mentioned that felt they are overcome by the mitzvah to love a ger tzedek, some chose to ignore that part of the post. To be clear and politically incorrect, I'd rather be married to Roos than a spoiled JAP with no clue what Judaism is about. But not everyone feels that way.
Once a person is a Jew, then that person is a Jew. I mentioned that one reason people object to a ger shidduch is because people are afraid they will return to their roots. Then I mentioned that I believe this is a reason that we push away someone who wants to convert, so that there would be cognitive dissonance involved in case they were in a lot of stress and they would not give up on being Jewish. I hope I was plain enough this time.
I mostly agree with you on yichus. Like every other part of the mix (money, looks, intelligence, loyalty, worldliness, lack of worldliness, health, education, career, ad infinitum), it is used as currency today.
Here is something to think about concerning yichus: Not all Jews look like we stepped out of Mesopotamia.
Why don't we all look like semites from Iraq? Because the vast majority are of mixed heritage, be it through geirus, rape by conquerers or other means. There is a lot of new blood in the line. There were times when it was necessary to add new blood to our dwindling population, there were times when slaves converted, there were all kinds of times. B'EH, we go back a ways.
So why is yichus an issue? Just my uneducated opinion: Whatever people have, they wish to maintain in importance. If they have a lot of money, usually they want to marry money. If they are descended from great families, then they want to hold onto that (especially if their family name is associated with a Yeshiva). Sometimes they marry into their own family line. But there are other things to look for besides a person's yichus.
It's one more ingredient in the mix. Or one more box on a checklist.
it looks that BTs have it all!
ReplyDeleteGeirim who are attractive or have money are on demand!but mainly for BTs
BTs VEry smart, attractive or good money can married ffb with ichus
FFB with emotional ,phisycal,or finnancial problems marry BTs
I think "Yichus" was the problem the Habsburg and many other "noble" families in Europe had: Any marriage to someone "lower" than themselves was considered a "Mesalliance" so that they ended up with children thatn had 4 instead of 8 great-grand-parents and a high rate of genetical diseases like epilepsia, and many diseases involving mental retardation.
ReplyDeleteOf course, the kind of genetic disease that will crop up is specific of each family. Some have six fingers, others have problems with the the kidneys, others with blood cells, many of those "autosomal recessive diseases" involve mental retardation and early mortality. For a rough overview see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Autosomal_recessive_disorders. Click any disease you like. It is a very interesting read.
Hashem knows why he orders us to be nice towards strangers, be it Gerim or "Jews who are not like us": If we keep marrying "strangers" (Gerim and jews from other regions), the problem of inbreeding can be checked. If we don't, there is another way hashem can avoid degeneration: by uprooting large parts of jewish population and mixing them anew. But generally, the "uprooting" is not a nice process.
No the problem I think is hegemony and wanting sameness. Any difference is looked upon as a defect. A good example of that is this young ladies blog post. Though being FFB and B"Y she is being rejected from dates because her father passed away. Since in normal society people of marriageable age have two parents, having one is is a disqualifying defect.
ReplyDeleteWhat hope to Gerim on B"Ts then have?
"Jersey Girl said...
ReplyDeleteYichus is like onions, the best part is in the ground."
"AY said...
I think "Yichus" was the problem the Habsburg and many other "noble" families in Europe had: Any marriage to someone "lower" than themselves was considered a "Mesalliance" so that they ended up with children thatn had 4 instead of 8 great-grand-parents and a high rate of genetical diseases like epilepsia, and many diseases involving mental retardation."
Jersey Girl, I respect your intelligence, but you seem to resent anyone who believes they have something that you do not.
AY, I agree with you, but I think that whole inbreeding thing with the Hapsburgs is really overplayed as an argument against breeding in general.
Long before Gregor Mendel explained a mechanism, and long before Darwin's books led some people to confuse breeding with the concept of evolution, animal and plant breeders understood the advantages of refining breeds. From dingos and coyotes to great danes and poodles, from wild bovines to domesticated milk cows, from Native American maize to popcorn, we have been breeding for improvement since we can remember. Look at hilchos kelayim, where you are not allowed to graft for a change in species. That is important for breeders (better grapes and so forth, but not grape-apples, if that's how they would be made. The same with animals).
Of course anything can and has been overdone. The horror of eugenics that both the Nazis Y'SH' used as an excuse with their scientists and that led to the mass castration of "undesirable" bloodlines in the US, the wanton interbreeding of the Hapsburgs, etc., are examples. It has also led to some humorous circumstances. After the Roman Empire fell apart, King Mark united the barbarians (Anglos, Saxons, etc.) against Ireland and into a kingdom. The ones who supported Mark became the aristocracy and thus the land owners. If you read old English literature, you will find cases where, for example, a family that had been stablemasters to the Royal family are considered aristocracy and refuse to mix their bloodlines with commoners. If you ignore the pain inflicted on their subjects, it's a riot.
But breeding works if done with intelligence and goals. Undesirable recessives can be tracked and avoided, especially today.
But just like when you breed a foxhound, you need to train it to make correct use of its breeding. Nature and Nurture together. That was and is the goal of royal breeding: find a natural leader and raise that person to lead.
So though some just see yichus as a status symbol, others see it as a way to possibly have an iluy come from them. In my limited experience, I have seen geniuses come from some of these families. Unfortunately, I don't think morality can be bred. (You can end up with an iluy who pressures conversion candidates into unwanted sexual behavior, or a leader who protects perverts.)
Ashkenazic Jews have a problem, though. There was a time not long ago when there existed only a handful of Jewish families in Europe. Without opening the gene pool (as was done), the gross interbreeding of these families do lead to nasty recessive traits such as Tay-Sachs manifesting. We test for these recessives now in shidduchim. Some people are so set in their lust for yichus that they ignore such dangers.
So it's not so simple. A baby brother and sister left on a desert island can be disastrous (though if they grow up together most will not be attracted to the other),intelligent breeding can yield results, overdoing it can cause inhuman policies in groups.
Certainly on one hand Jews could be well served by expanding our gene pool. On the other hand, those who have their identities based on their yichus will go the other way.
Whatever floateth thy boat.
I also think wanting stability sameness and stability is a big factor. Back in the day, if the daughter of a Galizianer married the son of a Litvak, the family would likely see the marriage as a tragedy, because the family line would be diluted, the minhagim would be confused, the in-laws will have very little in common, etc. Even now, most chassidim will likely marry within their own chassidus. I think the nature of a BT, and even more so, a ger being seen as having a strike against them vis-a-vis shidduchim are just particular manifestations of this general phenomenon.
ReplyDeleteMany of us, as products of the modern world, are used to being judged solely on our individual merits, and when we're not, we get upset.
Family status is easier to take for certain things like being a kohen, which matters only to a very circumscribed set of responsibilities and priveleges. No one really gives more kavod to a kohen these days. However, when family status is applied as a general signifier of how "good you are", e.g., will it help you with finding friends or jobs, will people be impressed, and last but not least, will it make finding a marriage partner easier, people lacking status will get upset.
The idea that people should be judged primarily on their individual merits, divorced from their family background, is a big chiddush. Most cultures in the world, throughout history, have seen family status and social class to be important factors, certainly in marriage, and Jews are *not* unusual in this respect.
The last Mishna in Horiyos lists the order in which people should be saved in a life-or-death crisis (e.g. who gets in the lifeboat first): kohen, levi, yisrael, mamzer, nasin, ger, freed slave. However, concludes the Mishna, this rule is true only where comparing people of equal scholarship - even a mamzer who is a talmid chacham takes precedence over a kohen gadol who is an am ha’aretz.
This mishna is limited to a particular accomplishment, Torah learning, but I believe that it also speaks to a general attitude about valuing personal accomplishment.
This mishna notwithstanding, the Jewish way, just like all the nations around them, has traditionally been to judge individuals based more on family and class than individual accomplishment.
I, for one, would be perfectly happy to see Jews become a bit more "modern", at least in this respect.
"But breeding works if done with intelligence and goals."
ReplyDeleteYou remark is very interesting. When I look at the "Shidduch industry" I discover some similarities to "breeding" indeed (e.g. the utter cruelness with which "persons who could have a 'breeding defect' in the family are excluded)
However, I do not think that the comparison with animal breeding is entirely appropriate.
When humans breed animals or plants, in general they do not do it for the benefit of the plant/animal, but for their own benefit.
Today, there is a huge problem in the beef breeding industry because almost all the calves come from the same father (small, frozen test-tubes sent around the world)...
And of course "overbred" animals do develop congenital diseases. The examplaries with the diseases are slaughtered or kept from breeding. No problem there...
But the aims we have when humans have children are not entirely the same.
"Undesirable recessives can be tracked and avoided, especially today."
Think it over: If we avoid that Tay-Sachs-positive marries Tay-Sachs-positive, what happens?
In the end, there will be more recessive Tay-Sachs-positive in the population than if you did not care at all. And if you keep the population closed (no-one coming in from outside), there will be inevitably a moment where 100% are recessive positive, and you are forced to put two positives together.
Now this might take a while (I do not know how frequent the Tay-SAchs-Gene-defect is with ashkenasim)
"So it's not so simple. A baby brother and sister left on a desert island can be disastrous"
Statistics about risks are often misunderstood.
"There is an increased risk" does not mean "every child from such a union will have "autosomal recessive disorders"
In general, the risk is 1 in a million, with inbreeding it will perhaps increase to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 100, or, if both parents have the affected gene, 1 in 4...
The risk of inbreeding exists of course in the "brother-sister" constellation you mentionned, but this is forbidden in most societies. In countries like Turkey, Iran, Kurdistan, the risk comes from the custom that a cousin marries a cousin. If you do this a few times over, you end with a quite restricted gene pool.
But also if you have many descendents from very few "founding families" as is the case with fundamentalist (still polygamist) mormons, autosomal recessive diseases appear.
And this is also the case for Ashkenasim (see increased incidence of Tay-Sachs and other diseases)
to AY:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
I don't see that we disagree on anything except perhaps (I can't tell) that you think we should not keep those with recessive problem genes separated, and that you believe breeding of people is also done for the benefit of the ones who are married instead of for those controlling the breeding.
All in all, it is just one aspect of shidduchim. You may hear people say that they want an intelligent girl for their boy (who they believe is intelligent) so that they have intelligent grandchildren. This aspect doesn't even have to be tied to yichus, just breeding in general. (And I do understand that intelligent boy and girl does not necessarily mean intelligent baby.)
In learning sefer Beraishes we find discussions that if you wish to see how the child will turn out, look at its uncle and so forth. Trying to figure this out is not a new endeavor, nor is it frowned upon. It's not mandatory either, I don't think.
We disagree on more points. However, we do not disagree on the fact that transmission of Tay-Sachs should be avoided through genetic testing before marriage.
ReplyDeleteThe main point we disagree on is: Can you "breed" humans the way you breed animals? I say no. I think it is immoral.
mekubal said...
ReplyDelete"No the problem I think is hegemony and wanting sameness. Any difference is looked upon as a defect. A good example of that is this young ladies blog post. Though being FFB and B"Y she is being rejected from dates because her father passed away. Since in normal society people of marriageable age have two parents, having one is is a disqualifying defect.
What hope to Gerim on B"Ts then have?"
I know this one all too well. Besides, being a convert, I catch slack because my parents are dead.
You'd think since there's such fear that a gyoress will want to go to their parents for Xmas, they would be relieved. Furthermore, I add, if she is living Orthodox, she is not going to do that.
"In the end, there will be more recessive Tay-Sachs-positive in the population than if you did not care at all. And if you keep the population closed (no-one coming in from outside), there will be inevitably a moment where 100% are recessive positive, and you are forced to put two positives together."
ReplyDeleteNow, it's been a while since I took Biology, but this isn't exactly right. However, the point is clear that people should consider gerim and BTs.
Incidentally, this run after the almighty yichus isn't that different from the secular world that goes after looks. I was actually better off.
I think breeding people involuntarily, such as the eugenics horror of early last century, is abhorrent and immoral.
ReplyDeleteI think voluntary breeding is moral. If I want my children to be capable of going to Med School, then part of my search in a wife will include that sort of ability and ambition. We breed anyway. Why not try to affect its outcome in a positive manner if one is capable? Isn't that what we are doing with the questioning of shadchanim and the genetic testing?
I seem to remember that the Avos searched for particular traits in their wives. I don't remember if part of the reason was to have those traits in the B'nei Yisroel, and I'm traveling now.
I've heard my daughter and her friends say, "If she marries him, what do you think their children would be like?" It seems to be on the mind of young women as well as some young men.
I agree that morality on some of these issues is a hard question. That is why we need real gedolim to answer some of these questions.
"Jersey Girl, I respect your intelligence, but you seem to resent anyone who believes they have something that you do not."
ReplyDeleteNo, I do not have any resentment toward anyone. It is just an old saying that is very true.
My mother is a great niece of the Gerrer Rebbe and my father is a grandson, great nephew and cousin of Sephardic Chief Rabbis.
(I have "papers" I can email to R'DE to prove this).
(Neither side approved of the match BTW. My father and my mother's brother were friends from school and my parents dated secretly. I know what it is like to belong yet not belong everywhere).
Every Jew has the best possible yichus as we are all the children of Avraham, Yitzcack, Yaakov, Sarah, Rivkah, Rachel and Leah.
Ultimately, yichus is what you make of it. When any Jew acts as the son/daughter of Hashem, created in Hashem's image as he/she is, then the yichus of our Avot and Imot is meaningful.
When any Jew makes a Chillul Hashem, it is bad for Klal Yisrael.
I once heard a great Rebbetzin of famous Gerrer yichus say "yichus is a bunch of zeroes. Your behavior can be a "1" in front of those zeroes in which case you are like a million dollars, or you can behave like a "zero" and then you are nothing but a GREAT BIG ZERO.
A "zero" is a "zero" no matter how many zeroes it is in front of.
"No, I do not have any resentment toward anyone. It is just an old saying that is very true. "
ReplyDeleteOh. My apologies.
"That is why we need real gedolim to answer some of these questions."
ReplyDeleteDo people really ask a Sheileh before they reject Gerim/Bts????
Michaltastik said...
ReplyDelete"In the end, there will be more recessive Tay-Sachs-positive in the population than if you did not care at all. And if you keep the population closed (no-one coming in from outside), there will be inevitably a moment where 100% are recessive positive, and you are forced to put two positives together."
Now, it's been a while since I took Biology, but this isn't exactly right. However, the point is clear that people should consider gerim and BTs.
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It's not just "not exactly right" it's dead wrong. Even two carriers can produce off spring that are not carriers. It's simple Mendelian genetics. Two carriers have a 25% of an affected child, 50% of producing a carrier and 25% of producing a child that is neither affected nor a carrier. For a carrier and a non-carrier, the chance of producing a non-carrier 50%. Time to review Biology 101!
AY said...
ReplyDelete"That is why we need real gedolim to answer some of these questions."
Do people really ask a Sheileh before they reject Gerim/Bts????
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Yes, some do. And sadly they are told to reject them for reasons such as their parents didn't go to the mikvah or "what could you possibly have in common?". One of my good friend's husband was told not to date her by his maggid shiur b/c she was a BT and "what could they possibly have in common". Something didn't sit right with him and he spoke with his rosh yeshiva who asked "is she a good girl? with good middos? then what is the shaila?" They've been happily married more than 25 years.
C"hava said...
ReplyDeleteAY said...
"That is why we need real gedolim to answer some of these questions."
Do people really ask a Sheileh before they reject Gerim/Bts????"
================================
What are you guys talking about? That statement was made regarding planned breeding, not Gerim/BT's.
Enjoy your discussion, but please don't attribute it to me.
"Yes, some do. And sadly they are told to reject them for reasons such as their parents didn't go to the mikvah or "what could you possibly have in common?". One of my good friend's husband was told not to date her by his maggid shiur b/c she was a BT and "what could they possibly have in common". Something didn't sit right with him and he spoke with his rosh yeshiva who asked "is she a good girl? with good middos? then what is the shaila?" They've been happily married more than 25 years."
ReplyDeleteWell, if they started looking at middos of the FFBs, that would be awesome, I'd find a guy right away because wouldn't be much competition.
Michal - maybe you need to get out of NYC ;)
ReplyDelete"t's not just "not exactly right" it's dead wrong. Even two carriers can produce off spring that are not carriers."
ReplyDeleteTake four persons, 2 men, one Tay sachx positive, one Tay sachs negative, 2 women, one TS+, one TS-.
Let's say they all have 4 children. Let's say the probabilities of getting the + or - gene are exactely the same. Let's assume the outcome is according to statistics, even if it is a small sample.
If you combine
two couples +/- and -/+
each couple has 4 children, according to statistics it will be 4+ and 4-.
If you combine
-/-
+/+
the healthy couple will have 4 children that are not carries.
The +/+ couple will have, according to statistics, two children with one +, one who is not a carrier, and one who has ++.
The one who has ++ probabily won't make it to adult age.
So of the second combination, you have 5 non carrieres, two carriers, one ill child.
Whereas before you had 4 carriers and 4 non carriers.
Therefore, the number of carriers tends to increase if you systematically mate a carrier with a non carrier.
Can you follow me?
But of course, it would be cynical to risk that a couple has children who really do have the expressed disease when allowing to marry two carriers. So this is not at all what I would recommend.
My point was: if you are in a closed society, even if you do screening and testing, the risks increase on the long run...
Furthermore, if you have just a slight increase of the proportion of carriers and a closed society, statistically there will inevitably be a moment when all the members of the group will be carriers. But it might be far, far away in time.
Got it?
the danger that a ger may go back to his goyshe world from which he descended is much to big as not to take it into account. then there is the problem with the gers mental situation and his goyishe pseudo mishpacha. gerim are truely no-jews untill the tenth generation (as rashi says in Parshat Yithro).why getting into all this trouble and inflict your future children with this endless pain of separation and not realy knowing who they realy are. they will allways bee torn between the goyshe family and the jewish side. bal teshuvas remain jewish even if they return to bee non religiouse but gerim ???
ReplyDeleteNice telling comment....
DeleteFunny how no one has a problem with us dating FFBs 20 years our senior, only ones our own age.