There has been much heat and debate which seems to be primarily the result of differing assumptions of what the obligation of a Jew towards a ger.
In this post I will cite sources which illustrate what this means in practise. None of the sources indicate that one can not disagree with a ger or need to avoid giving a ger rebuke. 1) indicates that one shouldn't opress the ger because they have a greater propensity (yetzer harah) to sin and give up mitzvos 2) In the hierarchy of saving the life and providing food and support - the ger is at the bottom of the list with the freed slave. 3) There seems to be an emphasis that there feelings are more easily hurt because of their change of life i.e., they are strangers and they have lower self esteem. This seems to be similar to be careful with the feelings of women because they readily cry and G-d responds readily to tears. 4) As cited before Berachos (8b) cites a view that one should not marry a giyorus
Bava Metzia(59b): It has been taught: R’ Eleazar HaGadol said: Why did the Torah warn in 36 places – while others say in 46 places – against wronging a convert? It is because he has a strong inclination to evil [Rashi Horios 13a]. What is the meaning of the verse (Shemos 22:20): “You shall not ridicule a ger (outsider), nor oppress him; for you were gerim (outsiders) in Egypt?" It has been taught: R’ Nosson said that one should not ridicule another with the blemish you yourself have. This idea is expressed in the folk expression “If someone had a family member who was hanged one should not say to him, ‘Hang up this fish for me.’”
Horios(13a): Mishna Saving the live of a cohen takes precedence over that of a levi while a levei takes precedence over a yisroel, the yisroel takes precedence over a mamzer while a mamzer takes precedence over a nasin and a nasin takes precedence over a ger and a ger takes precedence over a freed slave. This hierarchy is only valid if they are equal in other respects however if the mamzer is a talmid chacham and the cohen gadol (high priest) is an ignoramous then the mamzer talmid chacham has precedence over the ignorant high priest. Gemora – A nasin takes precedence over a ger since the nasin the nasin was raised with us in holiness and the ger was not raised with us in holiness. A ger takes precedence over a freed slave for the slave is included in the curse while the ger was not… It was taught: R’ Shimon bar Yochai said it is logical that the freed slave should in fact take precedence over the ger for the slave was brought up by us in holiness and the ger wasn’t, however since the slave was included in the curse and not the ger – the ger takes precedence. R’ Eleazer the son of R’ Tzadok was asked, “Why do all want to marry a giyorus but not everyone wants to marry a freed maidservant? He answered that the maidservant was included in the curse while the giyorus was not. Another explanation is that the giyorous is known to protect her chastity while the maidservant is not…
Shulchan Aruch(Y.D. 251:9): If a person has many poor people who need help but he doesn’t have enough funds to feed them, giving them clothing or redeem all of them – then he should first take care of the Cohen and then the Levi. The Levi is taken care of before the Yisroel, the Yisoel comes before the Challal who comes for the Shetuki who comes before the Asufi who precedes the Mamzer. The Mamzer takes precedent overthe Nesin and the Nesin takes precedence over the Ger while the Ger takes precedence over the Freed Slave. When is this hierachy applicable? When they are all equal in knowledge but if the Mamzer is a talmid chachom while the Cohen Gadol is an ignoramous then the preferences is given to the Mamzer who is talmid chachom…
STrange similarity with the indian cast system...
ReplyDeleteTo be honest: when I read about the indian cast system and its history, it struck me that we Gerim are not that much different from their "untouchables"...
A question, where does being a mensch fit into our hierarchy? Does being a mensch get weighed in to the picture when deciding who gets what? In my way of thinking, I hope it would.
ReplyDelete"It a kindness that G-d did to Israel, that He scattered them amongst the nations... Does a person then sow a measure of grain, if not to harvest many measures? So, too, the people of Israel were exiled amongst the nations only so that converts be added to them..." (Pesachim 87b)
ReplyDeleteSo by being failing to love the ger are we discouraging other people who would otherwise convert, and thus prolonging the exile?
As with most things, it is the application that matters most.
ReplyDeleteWow. I am speechless. Why would the Jewish people even bother tryin to appease the wretched goyim by allowing conversion. It is to give the appearance of not being predudice?
ReplyDelete"STrange similarity with the indian cast system...
ReplyDeleteTo be honest: when I read about the indian cast system and its history, it struck me that we Gerim are not that much different from their "untouchables"..."
Uff! It's so true.
"“Why do all want to marry a giyorus but not everyone wants to marry a freed maidservant? "
ReplyDeleteWho wants to marry a gyoress? Hey, if he's 38 to 45, send him my way!
To Uff!,
ReplyDeleteMy knowledge on this matter is very limited, but I'm not aware of the Hindu caste system having a mechanism through which the caste hierarchy can be overriden by other considerations.
When teaching these topics in halacha, I think that it is crucial to emphasize that the hierarchy that is established among individuals based on the degree of one's dedication to Limud Torah (i.e. whether or not one is a talmid chacham) has the power to trump the pedigree-based hierarchy.
He who accepts a low societal position in order to live closer to HaShem, imagine his level in the world of truth.
ReplyDeleteYet none of the sources prohibit pointing out that an alleged Ger is in fact a non-Jew and not a Ger altogether, due to the fact that his alleged conversion was invalid in the first place.
ReplyDelete"HKBH punishes us on their account, for when their observance surpasses ours, He notes that we are not as careful about mitzvot as they are, even though they are not from Jewish stock." Tosefot Yesharim.
ReplyDeleteI can only speak from my own experiances! I stoped davening from the Amud years ago, after being told, on a number of occassions, that a Ger isn't the best person to daven in behalf of the Tzibur.
ReplyDeleteOf course such statements hurt and have marked me in a certain way. Now I just watch how people fight to daven from the Amud (sure, instead we wait 5 minutes until somebody unwillingly goes and davens).
On another occassion, when my wife gave birth to our first son people said that we should not have a Pydion Haben, as Gerim haven't got the states of a real Jew. So I went to the Satmer Dayan to ask a sheila and he paskened that a Ger has the same obligations as a born Jew and that those who think gerim are 2nd or 3rd class Jews and spread fals rumors should do teshuva and apologise to us (still waiting for their apologies until today).
We had been told that being a convert isn't easy and that is true.
I have found that the chareidi Yidden are more negative toward converts then the modern orthodox or traditional jews.
A friend of mine just told me yesterday that Chareidim seem to be more jalous of leaving the goyishe welt, as they can't understand why somebody would want to give up, how this guy said, liberty/ freedom.
May Hashem accord all Gerim and Baalei Teshuva, the strength to withstand the prejudice they suffer daily and serve Hashem with continued zeal!
DT,
ReplyDeleteFor purposes of practical halachah could you address the interpretation the idea of a mamzer talmid chochom or ger talmid chochom getting precedence over a cohen gadol. I think it is particularly pertinent since there is a question about why a giyores or ger of more learning and frumkeit is passed over for shidduchim and instead a lesser FFB is chosen. Obviously I can not evaluate the claimed facts of the case. But is such a preference halachically justified?
There are two issues here 1) There is ignorance of halachos that are not typical. Chareidi Jews normally would not have to ask or be taught these halachos but they typically would know enough to think there was a question - but not know the answer. so best not to. Thus we are not talking about any deep seated psychological bias. 2) There is no reason that you can't be knowledgable of these halachos and have the ability to say that this gadol says there is no problem or be able to cite chapter and verse.
ReplyDeleteIn sum there is a strong bias in chareidi culture to avoid situations in which there is a question. You need to know there is no question and teach them.
I have this issue all the time. "You can't do this because it is lashon harah" "You can't do this becaue Rav Moshe said so" It has to be done this way because the Chofetz Chaim said so. You have to know when your opponent is an ignoramous and is pulling a fake citation or psak out of the air. I have met many rabbis and rosh yeshiva who have made serious errors and were very confident about their error. It is helpful to have the text readily available.
But also realize baalei teshuva and gerim are also guilty of "bullying with "this godol said".
That is one of the major reasons that people are more comfortable within homogeneous groups - they are much less likely to be ridiculed for making a mistake
שולחן ערוך אורח חיים נג:יט
יש מונעים גר מלהיות ש"צ, ונדחו דבריהם. ).
ט"ז אורח חיים סימן נג ס"ק ט
(ט) יש מונעים גר כו'. - לפי שלא יוכל לומר אלהי אבותינו ונדחו דבריהם דכתיב כי אב המון גוים נתתיך דהיינו מכאן ואילך תהיה אב המון לכל גוים:
מגן אברהם סימן נג ס"ק יט
יט ונדחו דבריהם - דגר יכול לומר אלהי אבותינו דאברהם נקרא אב המון גוים:
משנה ברורה סימן נג ס"ק נ
(נ) ונדחו דבריהם - דהוא יכול לומר ג"כ אלהי אבותינו דאברהם נקרא אב המון גוים כדכתיב כי אב המון וגו' מפני שלמד לכל העולם אמונת ד'.
ערוך השולחן אורח חיים הלכות ברכות השחר סימן נג
סעיף יז
גר [בזמן הקדמון] מותר לו להיות ש"ץ ויש שמונעים אותו מזה מפני שאינו יכול לומר אלהי אבתינו ונדחו דבריהם דאברהם הוא אב לגרים כי אב המון גויים נתתיך [בראשית יז, ה] וכן מפורש בירושלמי ביכורים פ"א [הל' ד'] דכן הלכה ע"ש
Amen, Motti.
ReplyDelete"'Proselytes are as hard for Israel [to endure] as a sore on the skin'" (Bavli Yebamot 47b).
Tosafot (Kiddushin 70a-71a) says this is because Hashem commands Israel to love the ger and not to oppress him numerous times, and yet it seems impossible for Jews to avoid tormenting him.
My own homiletic interpretation: A sore is temporary (sores that don't go away are cancerous and kill the person -- and Israel will never die). Most sores do not leave scars, especially if one applies a soothing balm. Likewise, if people treat gerim with kindness then they will eventually blend in with the Jewish people, and there will be no distinction between them, just as there is no distinction between skin that used to have a sore and skin that never had a sore. Converts are more difficult than sores because unlike with healing sores, born-Jews have to work hard to subdue their evil inclination, both individually and as a community, to treat the gerim appropriately and let them blend in with the Jewish people.
"That is one of the major reasons that people are more comfortable within homogeneous groups - they are much less likely to be ridiculed for making a mistake"
ReplyDeleteI found the contrary to be true: the more a group is homogenous, the more people fear to be ridiculed for making a mistake.
Because making mistakes, being different, will make them stick out and they fear to loose their status as "one belonging to the group".
You see the symptom of this phenomenon very clearly when hareidim are so afraid to reveal that their son needs speech therapy, that they have a handicapped child, that their daughter has diabetes, etc.
All this "being afraid of lashon hara" "what will people tell about me" and also the phenomenon of lashon hara itself is generally much more pronouced in a homogenous group.
In general society, I will say: so what if my father had 20 mistresses and 2 children out of wedlock?
In the chareidi world, you need to hide even the despicable acts of sexual abusers.
"In sum there is a strong bias in chareidi culture to avoid situations in which there is a question"
ReplyDeleteI agree that this is a strong phenomenon in chareidi culture. But the problem is: they do not even know where there is a question and where there isn't.
It's not only dangerous to come into a situation where there is a doubt. It is also dangerous to be in a doubtful situation and not to know about it.
They think that "the son of a Talmid chochem" is a sure value. Is it really? Did you look at the boy? Perhaps he hates hareidi culture to the guts and dreams of nothing but escaping a world he considers a prison. (For more information see "a hasid and a heretic" and the blogs on his linklist).
It is easy to exclude. But will you "include" the right ones?
The Torah warns us against this type of discrimination. It's not just because of the Gerim. It's also because a "world without doubts" is not viable.
yeshaya you only quoted part of tosfos - the rest is here
ReplyDeleteTosfos (Kiddushin 70b): Converts are as deleterious—Rashi explains because they are ignorant of the mitzvos and thus cause misfortune by their lack of observing the Jewish laws and that they set a bad example for other Jews. … Others explain that they are a source of trouble to the Jewish people because Gd repeated the prohibition of not upsetting converts 24 times and it is impossible not to transgress this serious prohibition. … Another explanation is that converts are in fact more knowledgeable in mitzvos and are more scrupulous in observing them than Jews from birth. This contrast causes Gd to punish the Jews from birth when they are not properly observant… Another explanation is that they cause problems by being assimilated amongst the Jewish people and the Divine presence only rests on families that have a pedigree…
A few Chassidic (Breslover) teachings on converts, all of which attach the highest positive connotation to conversion:
ReplyDeleteTrue prayer must be filled with the quality of love. Prayer is a plea for God's grace and kindness. The ability to love depends upon understanding. When the forces of the Other Side sap
the strength of love, God forbid, it becomes flawed. Anger and cruelty come in its place and understanding diminishes. Immoral desires become rampant. At a time like this, prayer comes under the shadow of God's somber judgment, and the forces of the Other Side sap its strength. It takes a leader of tremendous strength to pray at such a time. The task is to release the vitality which has been captured by the forces of the Other Side in order to restore things to their pristine state. When this happens, it causes large numbers of people to convert, and the glory of God is
exalted and magnified. The power of prophecy comes into the world. Man's creative and imaginative faculty is cleansed and he is able to attain perfect faith. Then he is worthy of singing the song which is destined to be sung in time to come (Likutei Eitzot, Prayer, 81).
When those who were far from holiness draw closer -- whether they are proselytes who convert, or Jews returning to their roots, for they too were `outside' -- God's glory is exalted through their drawing closer, and His Name is glorified in the upper and the lower worlds. Glory
is raised to its root and through this peace spreads over the whole world (Likutei Eitzot, Peace, 12).
Through giving charity to the true Tzaddikim and to poor people who genuinely deserve it, converts are made. Through this one attains perfect wisdom and becomes worthy of seeing the
light of the Tzaddikim. This is how to achieve the love and fear of Heaven (Likutei Eitzot, Charity, 4).
"A friend of mine just told me yesterday that Chareidim seem to be more jalous of leaving the goyishe welt, as they can't understand why somebody would want to give up, how this guy said, liberty/ freedom."
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe that this is not an uncommon attitude. That is how my siblings and I and our cousins often feel.
Fifteen years ago, while my husband was struggling with a serious illness a well to do cousin rented us an apt. in a resort that is frequented by Chassidim.
Being Sephardic, to say that we "stood out" was an understatement.
I understand Yiddish and found great amusement in what was being said about us. My family was obviously much more exciting and interesting than a TV documentary could ever be (in a community that does not have TV).
In fact, to this day, fifteen years later friends, friends of friends, relatives and relatives of relatives of our neighbors there still call us up to come visit when they are in Florida.
We have been told, quite frankly that they do not have many opportunities to see how other Jews live. We are so different, yet we are Jewish which is fascinating.
Honestly, I am happy to oblige. Ahavat Yisrael begins with information and understanding. A person can only begin to understand by asking questions and I do not believe that anyone should be offended by sincere questions.
I also do not believe that most people ask questions to be malicious, rather they ask questions to try to learn and understand.
I serve trays of homemade sweets and mint tea in special glasses. Several Williamsburg and Boro Park Chassidic women have told me that after being at my house, they started shopping at the Middle Eastern markets on Kings Highway because they now have a taste for maamoul and mint tea.
An interesting thing happened about ten years ago as an indirect result of our summer among the Chassidim.
The son of a Chassidic Rebbe contacted my husband to ask for a translation of Judeo Arabic commentary from a 100 year machsor so that he could publish it in Yiddish for his kehillah.
I thought that was not only fascinating but a sure sign that Moshiach is on the way!
"Converts are as deleterious—Rashi explains because they are ignorant of the mitzvos and thus cause misfortune by their lack of observing the Jewish laws ..."
ReplyDeleteThat may have been true at one time, but nowadays, there's a long list of things you have to know for the beis din. Do you all know the brachah to say before smelling fruits and nuts? "...ha reach tov baw payros." I didn't look it up, just now, either. I had to memorize each and every smelling brachah amongst so many other things I had to know.
"Jersey Girl said...
ReplyDelete"A friend of mine just told me yesterday that Chareidim seem to be more jalous of leaving the goyishe welt, as they can't understand why somebody would want to give up, how this guy said, liberty/ freedom."
Yes, I believe that this is not an uncommon attitude. That is how my siblings and I and our cousins often feel. "
Let me explain it this way. I figured if Israel is Hashem's people then the rules He gives them must be there for their benefit to keep them safe, no different from the rules my mother gave me for my own benefit. I have no problem letting Hashem protect me, therefore, I have not given up any "freedom" just as a child thinks it's so much easier to be an adult becase they seem to have more freedom, yet it's the opposite.
After working with converts and baalei teshuvah for many years, I have heard and seen my share of stories as well.
ReplyDeleteThere are those who are totally baffled as to why someone would want to convert and what their interest would be in it.
There are those who think it's neat but at the same time, would never let one of their kids marry one.
We are forgetting one very important thing: people are human and say things they shouldn't and act in a way that they shouldn't.
It doesn't mean that all religious Jews are x,y or z. Even rabbis can say things that may be hurtful as well.
Unfortunately there are biases and stigma's that do exist against baalei teshuvah and converts. Some have it easier, some have it harder.
At the end of the day, as a community we have to work harder incorporating them into the community and helping them as much as possible.
"Another explanation is that they cause problems by being assimilated amongst the Jewish people and the Divine presence only rests on families that have a pedigree"
ReplyDeleteMeaning Hashem's presence only rests on born Jews. Then, is He, the Master of Universe, CS, racist and favors born Jews rather than converts?? If this were true, which is not I would convert to Atheism and live according to my own rules. And for the record, because of these stupid explanations BORN Jews nowdays dont give a damn about Torah and Hashem. Those who agree with this explanation, should become humans and think of themselves as humans because they think they're angels without realizing that BORN JEWS will die just like any other HUMAN BEING and become dust. DUST. D-U-S-T.
The highest of all Jewish souls, the Soul of the Mashiach Himself comes through Gerim. There is only one person that G-d loves more than the Jew. That is the Ger. The Halacha is that you have to love every Jew, of which the Ger is certainly a Jew. Also, you have an additional mitzvah to love the Ger. So, you have to love the Ger more than you love a Jew. I would like to see an article on the practical application of that Mitzvah. According to Chassidic thought the loftiest souls fall the farthest. Like the analogy of the top brick on the wall, when the wall falls the top brick is farthest away from the base. If the Ger is on the bottom of the list in this veld, rest assure that his source is very lofty.
ReplyDeleteThere is only one person G-d loves more than the Jew in this world and that is the Ger. HaShem chose specifically,through coverts, to bring the soul of Mashiach into this world. The Jew has a responsibility to love every Jew, which certainly includes the Ger. Also, he has an additional mitzvah to love the Ger, so you have to love the Ger more than you love the Jew. And since, HaShem keeps the Halacha, it comes out that G-d loves the Ger more than the Jew. This is evidenced over and over again in the Torah. A Jew should never forget that one time he also was a Ger. As all the Jews went through conversion at Mt. Sinia. Some congregations read the megillah Rus by Shavuos to emphasize this point. In Chassidic thought there is a mushal that is used often. That is that the highest brick on the wall falls the farthest away. This is the Ger. Who as it is mentioned above is on the bottom of the list in this world, but his source is higher.
ReplyDelete