The following is the first of a series of posts that asks why hasn't the second shoe fallen? Why hasn't EJF been closed down?
Now that Tropper has left the organization - even without the foul odor associated with the organization - it still has not produced the "universally accepted geirim" and its geirim are not uniformly high quality. The following contends that it is a chaotic mess which sows discord and confusion and in reality has fallen significantly short of what they claim they are doing. It is a poorly organized group that doesn't even have a manual which describes the halachic principles it follows , a program sylllabus for educating candidates or even the standards for accepting candidates or mentors.
====================================
Too little too late,
ReplyDeleteIf he saw problems whil with the EJF, why did he wait till now to protest?
Had Tropper have not been exposed, then presumably this guy would still be going along with the whole scam. The tropper scandal is not limited to the znus involved; NO, the scandal is about how the allegedly highest "halacha standards" were played with in the equivalent of Madoff ponzi scheme. Just like Madoff, tropper was taking money and haskomos from the most repsected Torah personalities - but there was nothig real being done, it was all a fraud - financial and Halachic fraud.
Stop blaming our gedolim for their silence!
ReplyDeleteRav Yehonoson Eibshitz comments on when We Think Our Leaders Don't Measure Up.
What was the big deal that Moshe was Aral Sifasaim? Did we need a great orator to take us out of Mitzrayim?
Rav Yehonoson Eibushitz explains that the leaders of each generation reflect the level of the people. The greatest leaders are given to the greatest generations. If we are not happy with our leaders instead of blaming them we should know we are staring at a mirror image of ourselves.
To take the Bnei Yisroel out of their bondage in Mitzrayim required the greatest leader ever. Moshe said to Hashem, "Look at me. I am an Aral Sifasayim. I can't even speak clearly. Bnei Yisroel took one look at me and dismissed me saying this can't be our leader! If this is the leader that Hashem has designated for our geneartion, there is no way we are worthy to leave Mitztrayim." As such continues Moshe Rabbeinu, "Is there chance that Paroh will be impressed?"
I GUESS IT'S TIME FOR US TO TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK IN THE MIRROR! :-(
Quite insightful. However, i'm puzzled by this part of the article, concerning 2 other mentors who actually had much experience in working with converts:
ReplyDelete"Neither possessed any daas Torah whatsoever. How do I know this? First of all, they don't mention anybody on their resumes about it, for one. I also know these two individuals in another capacity whereby both are moderators of an online group that helps people in the process of conversion.
"These prospective converts have a place to go, so to speak where they can ask their questions, get reading material and listen to the stories of others in the same process. These moderators see the questions come, and either allow them to go in or reject them.
"The all important question you may ask is where is the rabbinic advisory board that oversees the questions that are asked and what is allowed or disallowed."
I wouldn't ask such an unimportant question. Why would such a forum need Rabbinic supervision? To filter each question being asked? Is this author another of the crazies?
the writer would definitely help his case if he would be willing to put his name to his essay.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't ask such an unimportant question. Why would such a forum need Rabbinic supervision? To filter each question being asked? Is this author another of the crazies?
ReplyDelete====================
Why are you being so nasty? The point made was that when dealing with geirus there is a need for rabbincial consultation. These moderator/mentors apparently do not have any - or they didn't feel it necessary to mention.
It doesn't mean that a rabbi must read each comment to see if it is allowed. But it does mean that there should be rabbinic advisors that set general guidelines and can decide issue when they arise. this is especially important for geirim
yair said...
ReplyDeletethe writer would definitely help his case if he would be willing to put his name to his essay
Anon said;
he has much to fear, the scaremonging tactics of the EJF and lubicom are far reaching
yair said...
ReplyDeletethe writer would definitely help his case if he would be willing to put his name to his essay.
================
Actually you anticipated a future post about the intimidation and threats against those who didn't obey tropper's commands.
A person whose livelihood depends on referrals is in big trouble if he angers tropper and is cut off. This also applies to programs and yeshivos.
In general this bullying in the chareidi world isn't just for mentors or kiruv programs - but even gedolim are threatened and cave in on issues
sorry, there is no such thing as Dass Torah in halacha. It a new invention (maybe 100 years old) mostly by Litvishe / artscrol style yiddishkeit - because they dont have the concept of a Rebbe/ mesoirah as Chasidim do. Today its become code word for mind control and throwing out your schechel out the window. Everyone must have a Rav to ask Halachic sheylos but beyond that follow the derech of your parents
ReplyDeleteSorry i ythink its discusting to be mekuriv intermarried let them go in the plauge of choshich
Of course we are not allowed to encourage intermariage and we must do everything in our power to break one up.
ReplyDeleteHowever, i have heard in the name of Rav Moshe Solovetizik ZT"L that in the situation where the HUSBAND is not Jewish and there are or could be children with a solid marrige, , that one should actually try to encourage the husband to convert, obviously with complete kabalos mitzvos. Not because of him but rather so the children who ARE Jewish would therfore receive a proper Jewish Education in Torah and Mitzvos, which wouldn't happen if the husband remained a gentile.( He said that he veen tried once to encourage the non-jewish husband to convert but he wasn't successful) I asked Rav Sholomo Zalman ZT"L what he thought of the above scenario, and he agreed with Rav Moshe Soloveitik's opinion
kolpogimbo said...
ReplyDeletesorry, there is no such thing as Dass Torah in halacha.
===================
your confusing two issues. Daas Torah as in the Daas Torah - is not what is being mentioned here.
A Daas Torah position where the normative understanding of a community is decided or what is appropriate to understand or discuss - does require an experienced talmid chachom. Also an experienced talmid chachom can see if the explanation giving a legitimate according to the sources used. It is not unusual in kiruv situations for the rabbis to improvise and make up explanations on the spot which really are not good scholarship or are simply wrong.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteOf course we are not allowed to encourage intermariage and we must do everything in our power to break one up.
However, i have heard in the name of Rav Moshe Solovetizik ZT"L that in the situation where the HUSBAND is not Jewish and there are or could be children with a solid marrige, ,
===================
citation? We have had this problem in the past of people quoting halachic conclusion - without accurately describing the parameters or conditions required
I didn't mean to appear nasty. My comments were only that the criticism seems unfair -- especially in developing such a positive website, or blog, where people can share situations etc.
ReplyDeleteI do feel it is stretching it to say such a forum needs rabbinic oversight. (Especially as these people are serious enough that they were chosen as mentors.)
Theres's a posting on Cross-Currents, 12-29-09 "EJF":
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2009/12/29/ejf/
Comment #57 seems to be one of this other couple. Beautiful thoughts she has, which echo much of this author's concerns. (Well worth reading. Along w/ comment #24 - a convert who felt he was abandoned by the community.)
As far as NAILED writes above -- or Archie Bunker, as he's known elsewhere -- you have me all wrong, and your tone is typical of your other rantings and postings, and certainly lives up to the "Archie Bunker" TV character.
It doesn't make any sense to demand a rabbinical board decide which questions can be aired on an internet listserv. First of all, the email group (I assume the author is referring to the "Orthodoxconversiontojudaism" Yahoo Group) is not run by EJF; I think it actually existed before EJF, and has several moderators able to reject or accept posts, and only some of these moderators are EJF mentors.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I know one of the EJF mentors who is a moderator of the online group, and he is an ordained rabbi who does submit questions to knowledgeable authorities when he is unsure of the answer.
Third, a email discussion group is an email discussion group. People talk about whatever. I know -- I'm a member of the list. It's not formal, with people asking formal halachic questions. Most of it is very basic information, or people sharing experiences about their first times visiting shuls and rabbis and so on. I assume that the only posts that are rejected are those that are offensive or inappropriate, like attacking another person or saying something against a belief or practice of Judaism. The idea that a list serve about conversion should not exist unless it each post is submitted a rabbinic board is not realistic or necessary in a case like this.
it still has not produced the "universally accepted geirim" and its geirim are not uniformly high quality. The following contends that it is a chaotic mess which sows discord and confusion claim they are doing. It is a poorly organized group that doesn't even have a manual which describes the halachic principles it follows , a program sylllabus for educating candidates or even the standards for accepting candidates or mentors.
ReplyDeleteWho wrote this article?? It is full of lies, and really should not be on your site!! I personally know of at least 8 couples that are leading Torah authentic lives because they came and were inspired by these seminar a few years ago!! The audacity to print sheker without any author!!! shame on all of you!!
yeshaya said...
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't make any sense to demand a rabbinical board decide which questions can be aired on an internet listserv
==============
I really don't see that you and the author of this post are in disagreement. If in fact those moderators do have a rabbi that they go to if they have a questions and guidelines - then he would not have objections. His point was that apparently they don't.
Being an ordained rabbi doesn't really mean that much these days regarding knowledge or authority or even commonsense.
Re: Daas Torah as a recent invention:
ReplyDeleteSomebody once asked R' Zelik Epstein Ztz"l why the Mir Yeshiva left Europe during the war if all the gedolim at that time said to stay?
R' Zelik answered "Daas torah hadn't been invented yet."
Who wrote this article?? It is full of lies, and really should not be on your site!! I personally know of at least 8 couples that are leading Torah authentic lives because they came and were inspired by these seminar a few years ago!! The audacity to print sheker without any author!!! shame on all of you!!
ReplyDelete==============
You are hilarious. You anonymously complain about the lack of crediblity because the author didn't identify himself - and mantain that you know the truth. Why don't you identify yourself? Also no one is saying that the millions of dollars they spent didn't produce some positive results. What the article is saying is that even if the idea behind the EJF was good - and that is not necessarily true - but the poor and chaotic organization and implementation of programs was often counterproductive and destructive of the very goals they were promoting.
Article is free but registration is required. Could someone get this and post it?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=d1f38d41-38b8-47d1-b410-957c2a636fe8
How private are personal emails – part III
Lexology (registration) - Jan 11, 2010
Paul McCawley, an attorney for Defendant Guma Aguiar, was deposed in connection with ongoing litigation between Mr. Aguiar and various ...
Here is what the author says:
ReplyDelete"These prospective converts have a place to go, so to speak where they can ask their questions, get reading material and listen to the stories of others in the same process. These moderators see the questions come, and either allow them to go in or reject them. The all important question you may ask is where is the rabbinic advisory board that oversees the questions that are asked and what is allowed or disallowed. As I sat in disbelief a number of times from these two individuals were that they did not have a rabbinical board or had any desire sending questions to Rabbanim because they were afraid it would turn off perspective people interested in the group."
In this passage, the author clearly indicates that he thinks a rabbinical board should decide which posts on a listserv can be posted, and which should be rejected.
In this passage, the author clearly indicates that he thinks a rabbinical board should decide which posts on a listserv can be posted, and which should be rejected.
ReplyDelete===============
The above simple indicates that there should be general principles and when there is a question of something violating the general principles to ask. It doesn't mean that a rabbinic board must pass judgment on every comment before it is posted.
If you think that a discussion group of potential geirim should have no guidance or general principles that would be acceptable to a major talmid chachom then the author and I would disagree with you.
I agree that it would be good to have these kinds of general principles -- if the discussion group was run by an organization like EJF. But it is not. It is just a email discussion list that existed before EJF, and which has several moderators, a couple of which have been employed by EJF at some point. The rabbi on the list is sometimes in contact with knowledgeable rabbis, such as R' Reuven Feinstein, whom he occasionally asks gerus-related questions.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with the author that an organization like EJF, if it should exist at all (which it shouldn't, in my view), should have general principles about what is halachically acceptable, and general standards such as reading lists and other things. If it doesn't have such things, all the more reason to defund and dismantle the organization. From my experience of EJF I know they do have at least some structure, for example a suggested reading list (including for example Shmirat Shabbat by R' Neuwirth). I'm not aware about what else they have had along these lines.
Daas Torah said
ReplyDeletecitation? We have had this problem in the past of people quoting halachic conclusion - without accurately describing the parameters or conditions required
==============
I did personally hear from Rav Shlomo Zalman ZT"L that he agreed with the opinion of Rav Moshe Soloveitzik ZT"L, one should try to have a spouse convert
The conditions are as my post
1. The non jew in the marriage is the husband
2.The marriage is a solid one with little chance of it breaking up or of breaking it up.
3.The wife has or will have children who would of course be Jewish as she is Jewish
I understand your questioning the credance of what i wrote as this post is anonymous and i do want to remain so. I will therfore
write to you privately as we know each other.
Has anyone else heard of a similiar psak?
i think every potential convert should have a phychological evaluation and a criminal check as part of the process
ReplyDeletehttp://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteTropper / Kaplan gave $3.2 million in 2008 to American Friends of Beth El which is based at a Forest Hills, NY address belonging to Sherman Simanowitz.
http://openjurist.org/881/f2d/1155
Simanowitz was involved in a huge fraud with convicted felon Bernard Gelb, but got off the hook by testifying against Gelb for the government.
In general this bullying in the chareidi world isn't just for mentors or kiruv programs - but even gedolim are threatened and cave in on issues
ReplyDelete=======================
A topic for a separate post perhaps, but how does one deal with the cognitive dissonance of the model of daas torah/gedolei yisrael and this statement?
KT
Joel Rich
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDelete$75,000 for Bircas HaTorah
http://www.bircas.org/index.php?page=faculty-staff
Rabbi Shimon Green is the Rosh Yeshiva of Bircas HaTorah.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteTropper's rabbonishe backers tell you the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation is kodesh hakadoshim but here they are giving money to a Catholic school.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteWhy would they give $50k to Tiferes Tzvi at 1337 East 8th St in Flatbush?
This address belongs to Barry Hertz, the billionaire owner of Track Data (or at least he was a billionaire until he got the biggest margin call in history)
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteThis one is really shocking.
R' Shimon Alster, a Brisker, who is seemingly pure of any scandal, was seen at the Tropper chassuna. Although Leib Tropper was boasting that he drew him there, the speculation was that he probably came altz the chosson or Alpert.
R' Shimon Alster received $200,000 in 2008.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteDown the street from Rav Alster is the very suspicious address of 3054 Bedford Ave.
http://www.taxexemptworld.com/organizations/brooklyn_ny_11210.asp
Suspicious because there are literally dozens of registered charities at this address.
The one that got $180,000 is Darchei Horaah Lerabbanim which is affiliated with Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rishon Letzion.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteGuma obviously still had say here that Tovya Singer (Outreach Judaism Monsey) received $400,000.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteA Reform temple in Washington D.C. might seem out of place.
http://www.whctemple.org/our_clergy.htm
especially considering their 3 women rabbis.
But don't forget that Reform temples are swarming with intermarried couples.
http://www.riverdaleshteeble.org/about%20us.html
And a small amount for Rabbi Lissauer's Riverdale shteeble.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TomKaplanDonations.jpg
ReplyDeleteHere is a mystery
http://mhdinner.com/5.html
Yeshiva Meor Hatalmud got a whopping $3 million.
Who is this rosh yeshiva R' Moshe Weiss and what makes him so important that Tropper is funneling him as much money as R' Reuvein Feinstein?
Anonymous, so are you saying if a Jewess is married to a man but the man wants to convert, we should encourage them to get divorced, and break apart their family and scar their children for life, rather than allowing the conversion (if both will be observant afterward)? I can't agree with this. This is like the rabbis who counsel new ba'alei teshuvah whose spouses are not going along with it at first, that they should divorce them and find a frum spouse. As R' Shalom Arush has demonstrated (see his book Garden of Peace), this strategy is not a good strategy.
ReplyDeleteSo there you have it. It's not true as they said in their recent ad blitz that they only work with couples where the Jewish spouse is a fully observant Ba'al Teshuva.
ReplyDeleteWhat else are they lying about?
could it be that the poster who claims to know 8 couples is using sarcasm as a tool?
ReplyDeleteTo Anon at 10:42
ReplyDelete"I asked Rav Sholomo Zalman ZT"L what he thought of the above scenario, and he agreed with Rav Moshe Soloveitik's opinion"
As you surly understand - without your name this "testimony" of supposedly Reb S.Z. carries zero credibility!
Of interesting note, it seems that the prominent link of the letter of support to EJF from Gateways.org Rabbi Suchard has been removed from EJF's web site.
ReplyDeleteDid they have a falling out? or does Rabbi Mordechai Suchard, Founder and Director of Gateways still have a partnership with them.
He can be reached at
Rabbi Mordechai Suchard
845-352-0393 x104
The whole EJF web site is down?!
ReplyDeleteMaybe because Gateways used to be a Kiruv org.
ReplyDelete"I wouldn't ask such an unimportant question. Why would such a forum need Rabbinic supervision? To filter each question being asked? Is this author another of the crazies?"
ReplyDeleteThe author responds:
The issue of daas torah is a real burning issue. There are many people out there, rabbanim as well, who act on their own without asking questions to higher rabbinical authorities.
Just because someone has been a rabbi for many years, doesn't mean that they have no obligation to ask their rabbi for advice. Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy'd never went to the Chofetz Chaim? The Chozon Ish never spoke with Rav Chaim Ozer? and so on.
The Mishna in Pirke Avos tells us that every person has to know their place. This means that if I am put in a situation and I am not sure what to do, I should speak to someone bigger than me or more experienced in that subject. Doctors for example, refer to colleagues when they have a particular issue they are not sure about what to do etc.
Why should this be any different? Isn't there an obligation to ask those things that are seemingly out of our jurisdiction? Anavah, humility is about when to say I am not sure, I have to ask someone more authoritative to as the question to.
The red flag over here is that fact that these moderators have said unequivocally that they don't want an advisory board to oversee what they do. What does that tell you?
I saw many times that certain things were allowed to pass through that never should have been written in such a public forum. Remember the old adage, not everything said should be written, not everything written should be printed and not everything printed should be published!
Eddie said...
ReplyDeleteToo little too late,
If he saw problems whil with the EJF, why did he wait till now to protest?
The author responds:
Yes, the problems were there but who was there to talk to? After speaking to Rabbi Tropper and Rabbi Jacobs and seeing that it went nowhere, what was I supposed to do? I tried to steer people in an other direction and put them in contact with other people to help them but in reality, when you have such a "plethora" of Torah authorities on the bandwagon in Tropper's pocket, who really is going to listen anyway?
Anyone I did speak to, I warned them about the organization and their lacking. Even big gedolim I spoke too, did not tell me to go speak to the world about the fraud. Everything was done with daas Torah.
You are right, sometimes you have to protest even if you think if nothing will come of it. I certainly didn't stand on the sides, the real question was who to go to and who would really listen. I really didn't think any results would come of it and it could have hurt me in other ways in the long run.
Author = Rav Dunner?
ReplyDeleteThank you for your reply, and yes, this is sadly the environment of today:
"I really didn't think any results would come of it and it could have hurt me in other ways in the long run."
In other words, true Yorei Shomoyim are terrified to speak out, becasue kanoim and extremists will blacken anyone who is brave enough to speak the emet.
In the time of Sodom + Gommorrah, reason would not prevail, and only those with violence would be in power. It took Divine intervention to break this.
In a sense, this exposure of tropper's true nature is a Nes - a miracle. It has been done to prevent further evil being doen to Am Yisrael.
Rav,
ReplyDeleteI converted with the Beit Din of Bergen County in Marcheshvan 5770. The Rav with whom I had been working in the states had finished his shlichut job and had gone back to Israel. I was deemed ready to dip at that point by my Rav, and was packing recommendations by several others. When I started doing the phone learning with the EJF, it became clear very quickly they planned on starting me over from the beginning at that one-hour-a-week schedule you mentioned. Several times, the tutor never called.
I met a lot of people that year that made it their personal business to deter me from converting, as if it were incumbent upon them. I took those missed calls as the same thing.
Baruch Hashem, I also got hooked up with the Rebbes in Teaneck. I heard back from my tutor three weeks after I finished the conversion process.
Reading your piece, first in the 5 Towns Jewish Times and seeing other things you have to say about the organization, it is pretty clear to me that the so called crisis in the US regarding conversions seems to be less and less about the quality of converts - I am not sure if it ever was. The EJF just serves as a separate Rabbinical court from the ones run by the RCA. What this crisis has done has limited the Orthodox Jewish community's capacity to convert students in the country hosting the largest population demanding those conversions. The RCA has only converted 300 people in the last two years. It is mindboggling to me that in those two years I have met 6 prospective converts on my college campus alone. Some English-speaking yeshivot and midrashot in and around Jerusalem have 20% of their student bodies coming from homes with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother. It makes no sense.
The real crisis has been the inflation of one. The consequent "nullification" of conversions, done with the hope of sending people 'back to school' so to speak to redo their conversions with a different curriculum and under different auspices. This is a policy decision, not one of halachah, stemming from a belief that to recognize certain conversions b'diavad no matter how kosher d'orayta they are would lead to a liberalization of the process in Orthodoxy.
It has no bearing. It has served to encourage people with all but certified Orthodox conversions to give up shmirat shabbat and shmirat kashrut, and risk sending true Jews back into the world hillul shabbat and hillul whatever other mitzvah can be thought of.
The only crisis that exists is the convoluted attempt to make the process more stringent. It is already backfiring. Many Jews look at these giyurim l'chumrah as unnecessary. It is weakening Rabbinic authority and causing people to have scorn for it, increasingly getting people to stop recognizing it in general.
Furthermore, the paranoia about a conversion's validity is creating an atmosphere of fear for converts. Horror stories about someone undergoing 3 or 4 Orthodox conversions are circulating - nevermind the old Reform, then Conservative, then Orthodox tale.
Thanks to these innovative policies and perspectives in halachah, Jews are either being driven from respecting their elders or respecting the 'ger asher b'shareichem.'
The Orthodox community needs to prepare itself for a wave of converts, not try to build levees to keep out the water. The waves are hitting the wall, and someone is going to open the floodgates. Is it going to be the Orthodox or the Reform?
Why does a conversion forum need decent moderation?
ReplyDeleteI know the forum. It has some serious issues. It's a very large forum where people come in and out. Usually people leave after they've converted. Someone (usually EARLY) in the process asks a question. Many people respond with their opinions. The pre-converts are getting guidance from know-it-all conversion candidates instead of from a rabbi. That's not a problem?
I have a smaller forum, all women, comments go up without being moderated. However, there's 3 veteran converts (over 20 years Jewish) as well as myself and some others who have converted on a forum of less than 50 people. The veteran converts will respond to anything outlandish and I try to make members aware of which members are veteran converts. If a question comes up that's out of our reach, I say outright, "you should ask your rabbi this." I mention repeatedly, the forum is not there for shaila answering. There are other things like, "what do I eat for Pesach?" And the question isn't what CAN I eat but, what do I want to eat given this requires extra dishes, in other words, "what do REALL people eat?" and other questions like that.
Andy Bee,
The "mentors" on the OCTJ forum are a rabbi but, c'mon every man's a rabbi in the Jewish world and a converted lady. They don't even behave professionally as she constantly calls him by his first name on the forum and he doesn't correct her that it's grossly innappropriate. Furthermore, I've seen a number of times where she either says she doesn't know something or gives wrong information. She powertrips on the group. She will pick on people and then refuse to publish their rebuttal comments. She constantly censures a woman who runs a conversion school in Israel and knows more than either of them.
Yeshaya,
2 of 3 OCTJ moderators are EJF-affiliated. Yes, the group existed before EJF. However, they push EJF to the enth degree. Also, posts are turned down if you know more than the moderators. For example, see above. Also, when know-it-all non-Jews are advising people who want to convert... you don't think that's a problem?
Follow the Money:
ReplyDelete"Tropper / Kaplan gave $3.2 million in 2008 to American Friends of Beth El which is based at a Forest Hills, NY address belonging to Sherman Simanowitz."
Forest Hills? Scratches head. I thought they only gave money to black hats. The only black hats in Forest Hills are Chabad and some Bukharians. It's not a religious neighborhood. Jewish, yes, religious, no.
Which brings me to a beef I have with OCTJ, why do they tell conversion candidates to live in Forest Hills, when it doesn't even have a true kosher butcher?
Joshua,
I know what you mean. Anyone that finds out I'm a convert feels the need to question me. This has happened like, someone sets me up with a Shabbos meal and the hosts ask question after question about the validity of my conversion. People try to disuade me from conversion after I've already converted. I'm not the only one. Many others are going through the same thing. These questions and grilling sessions are in addition to what I get for not being married. Don't get me started on how the prospective dates feel entitled to disgrace my status as a convert by asking question after question over the phone then never asking me on a date.
Oh, and I don't think the author is necessarily R. Dunner. I've been on the other side of the equation as a convert talking to people in the process. Everything this person says is right on point. In fact, I know of a rabbi where EJF asked him to work with someone, but told him, "you're not working with her, you're just watching her." The local beis din told him he didn't have enough experience to sponsor a candidate. He is less than 5 years out of rabbinical school. I know because when a class I went to was hijacked into a class for them instead of the rest of us, I chatted up the girls after class and they asked me if I was converting. So, I Emailed the rabbi and suggested that he create lessons just for them (hint, hint-not teach them basic stuff like kosher when the rest of us come for a refresher on the laws of Pesach.) He responded telling me well, he was sponsoring one of the but, kinda not really.... I offered him a basic curriculum that other rabbis use. I think he was annoyed that I thought I knew something. When I was in the process this same rabbi complemented "whoever was training me..." Well, I, too didn't get guidance from any rabbis but, I made sure I learned every possible thing that I could possibly need to learn... I've been told COUNTLESS times I know so much more than other gerim. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap.
ReplyDelete"Thanks to these innovative policies and perspectives in halachah, Jews are either being driven from respecting their elders or respecting the 'ger asher b'shareichem.'"
ReplyDeleteThat's exactely the point. Thank you!
Gerim have become a pawn in rabbinic politics.
In the past, there was a fashion not to recognise each other's hechsher or sh'chita.
Today's fashion is not to recognise each other's Giurim.
It's almost the same, except that meat is dead and has no feelings. Gerim are alive and have feelings.
And then there is, as you pointed out, the other side of the "Giur le chumra", the "safek of Gerut"...
What is the Din of a "Ger be safek"? Would those individuals and rabbanim who cast aspersions on Giurim be ready to take on the responsibility if the Ger stops practicing anything, based on their p'sak that it is not sure he is a jew?
"I've been told COUNTLESS times I know so much more than other gerim. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap."
ReplyDeleteI've been told several times I know so much more than other COMMUNITY MEMBERS. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap.
"I've been told COUNTLESS times I know so much more than other gerim. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap."
ReplyDeleteI've been told several times I know so much more than other COMMUNITY MEMBERS. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap.
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Instead of leaving it to our imaginations what this means - would somebody like to write a post about this subject.
It is clearly prohibited by the Torah to abuse a ger - so exactly what is the problem and what do you propose as the solution? I am willing to give you a platform - as long as you are also willing to listen to critics as well as supporters
Gioret said...
ReplyDelete"I am willing to give you a platform - as long as you are also willing to listen to critics as well as supporters"
No, thank you. I have seen in the past that you give a platform to some quite vitriolic Giur-Antagonists.
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no problem - I'll give you or any other convert two other options - 1) I'll remove any comments you find objectionable or 2) I reject all comments postive and negative as I did for Rabbi Wender.
I think that it is important to converts or potential converts a voice.
What has been going on in this blog for the past 18 months is quite representative of how sincere Gerim are hurt by sweeping statements and generaliations.
ReplyDeleteGioret said...
ReplyDeleteWhat has been going on in this blog for the past 18 months is quite representative of how sincere Gerim are hurt by sweeping statements and generaliations.
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Actually you are also making "sweeping statements and generalizations."
the issue of conversion is a very difficult and controversial one. It wasn't too many years ago that the halachic debate applied to relatively few actual cases. Today it is a world wide free for all involving the changing nature of society, the vast numbers of converts and the applicablity of halachic norms from the past.
So yes there are very strongly held opposing views being considered and when you mix that with money, political power, etc it becomes a very explosive mixture.
Would you suggest it not be discussed or that I limit dicussion to only those views i personally accept?
People who are descended from Anusim are being told that they are really Jews - despite the oppositiion of most poskim. Mixed couples are being persued for conversion - desptie the fact that normative Jewish practice has been just the opposite. The social needs of Israel demands that the large non-Jewish Russian population be converted - even though it is highly unlikely that they are valid converts. Ethiopians are a huge halachic problem.
In sum, we are in the middle of a huge battle in establishing what is legitimate and who has the power to decide this. It is a shame that potential converts and converts are stuck in the middle.
If you don't like watching the blood and guts being spilled in the battle then no one asked you to read these discussions. I am simply trying to present the different views and issues and clarify the underlying factors. I agree they can be painful - but I really don't see an alternative.
Do you have any suggestions that have a possiblity of being accepted?
How come that your enthusiasm in helping chilled off all of a sudden, as soon as I revealed that it was not just about "the others" but also about yourself?
ReplyDeleteYou see, this is quite representative of the problem: no-one means to do harm. It's a bit like "See, I am not against Gerim, some of my best friends are Gerim, but the Gerim..." (and then comes the list why you cannot marry them, why you cannot trust them, why you cannot trust any Giur you did not perform yourself (and even those are subject to doubt), etc.
I understand that the question of sincerity, which is crucial in hilchot Giur, makes it very difficult to cast Giurim into some "Bureaucratic pattern".
In your blog, you attack several organisations that - in your view - do not meet the necessary standards when performing Giurim.
This in itself is legitimate, in my view.
What I find particularly legitimate is to denounce organisations that take advantage of Gerim and their lack of information.
However, I did not get the impression that this is the main thrust of your blog. Your blog seems to warn against organisations who "sneak undeserving Gerim into Am Israel".
And this is sometimes so similar to xenophobia, that it is difficult to make the distinction.
To me, it would be easier to understand what you mean if you could come up with hard facts and figures that prove that organisation X produces more insincere Gerim than organisation Y.
To take an example: the main objection you had against EJF (before the scandal broke out) was that they were "proselytising" in the murky waters of mixed marriages.
As far as I can see, most "modern-orthodox" communities do convert non-jewish spouses of jews (provided that they both agree to keep Torah u Mitzwoth). And the "proselytising forces" behind them are the family-in-law or the fact that marriage will not take place without conversion.
So if you could come up with a "ranking", stating that out of Rav Druckman's converts X% stayed frum after 5 years, the Batei Din in Europe have a success rate of y%, the out-of-town communities in the US Z%, the whole story would look much less polemic and less hurtful for Gerim.
Furthermore, I think it would be helpfull to emphasise, even at the risk of being repetitive, that criticism towards a particular organisation does by no means imply that all the Gerim going through this organisation are insincere.
As far as the "returnee's" problem is concerned, my main concerns are linked to timing.
If you alert potential returnees to judaism before they start out on their journey that you advise them not to 'become jewish', I'm fine with that.
However, you should not slam the door in their face nor ridicule them once they went through considerable hardships in order to reclaim their jewish heritage.
Furhtermore, in this case too the information you provided was neither specific nor precise enough to get a clear picture of the individual cases.
So I just got the impression, and it was perhaps wrong, that you were shooting at certain groups of people, including Gerim and Returnees to judaism.
And this hurt me because of the specific journey I went through.
1. Well lets see, my father lost 7 brothers and sisters in Aushwitz-
ReplyDelete2. May family has made a concious choice to marry jewish for thousands of years despite lost "opportunities" to blend in the prevailing culture.
3. I recall being smashed in the face and called a kike while walking down a melbourne street at age 7.
Why should we let some weakling jew who decides to live with a siksah have his partner just join the club. what sacrifices have they made in being jewish? where were all the goim when millions of jews were going up the chimney at Aushwitz? sorry you can cry me a river i dont accept you and never will -
"I've been told COUNTLESS times I know so much more than other gerim. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap."
ReplyDeleteI've been told several times I know so much more than other COMMUNITY MEMBERS. Sure, but the community still treats me like crap.
Michal says:
Yep, that too.
"Instead of leaving it to our imaginations what this means - would somebody like to write a post about this subject.
ReplyDeleteIt is clearly prohibited by the Torah to abuse a ger - so exactly what is the problem and what do you propose as the solution? I am willing to give you a platform - as long as you are also willing to listen to critics as well as supporters"
I will be happy to write up such a post. If "gioret" wants to collaborate with me, I'm at michaltastik at yahoo.
http://michalbasavraham.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-annoys-me-about-tropper-thing.html
ReplyDeleteThis is start for a what I could say about respect of gerim, but, I should really write something more honed and polished with extensive examples. If a ger/gyoress wants to contribute anonymously... Email me at michaltastik at yahoo and I can include any juicy tidbits you want.
"However, I did not get the impression that this is the main thrust of your blog. Your blog seems to warn against organisations who 'sneak undeserving Gerim into Am Israel.'"
Gioret,
It's in our best interest that conversions are done better. It's after people encounter or hear stories of insincere gerim that they question gerim they meet or who end up at their Shabbos table. If the RCA and EJF would stop converting girls in less than a year when the girls really just want a rich Jewish husband and they are not sincere, we wouldn't have so many problems. Also, if they didn't convert so many people (and I'm a gioress who thinks many of them shoudln't be converted) the community would have more resources to support those of us that are sincere. There just aren't enough families to "adopt" the gerim who we have. Now, I was yelled at by the very rabbi who defended me to the beis din, why? I'm not married, after a year or so as a gioress. He's panicking because he knows that the families who are good to me will dump me and he's afraid that I'll go OTD.
"Furthermore, I think it would be helpfull to emphasise, even at the risk of being repetitive, that criticism towards a particular organisation does by no means imply that all the Gerim going through this organisation are insincere."
True. Unprepared for Jewish life is probably more accurate. However, I have seen first hand that a conversion was dragged out on someone I didn't think should be converted. Sure enough, she wanted to get married so bad, she didn't wait for the conversion to find a Jew. She went back to a former religion. She expected me to be upset, as many were upset for her to not convert. As she is speaking against Jews online, now, I would say the community dodged a bullet.
My beef with these organizations is that NO ONE (ok, maybe someone living sorta Jewish) should be converted in under a year. I've seen first hand. Girls that I've known not in the process very long, have told me things that indicated they weren't sincere. I was told to shut my mouth because the rabbis know what they are doing. Ok, fine. So, they converted two girls that I know of who shouldn't have been converted. Who am I to judge? One of them I overheard her say motzei Shabbos about what a drag it is to keep Shabbos (which she didn't-she was turning lights on and off all Shabbos) and she just needed to go out and "shake something" she needed to shake it. I wonder how tznius she dressed in the nightclub, amongst other things. The other was lying about wearing skirts all the time. She has pics on her FB where she was behind someone and if you look hard enough you can tell she was in tight jeans. If she lied aobut that, what else did she lie about?
Again, if people didn't see stuff like this going on, maybe they would do what they do so much.
Where do I Email this polished essay on how badly they treat us?
Where do I Email this polished essay on how badly they treat us?
ReplyDelete====================
yadmoshe@yahoo.com
"where were all the goim when millions of jews were going up the chimney at Aushwitz? sorry you can cry me a river i dont accept you and never will"
ReplyDeleteWell, to be completely honest, my decisions to take upon myself ol Torah u Mitzvoth was, to some extent, a statement against Auschwitz, Nazis, and the mentality that produced them.
Interestingly enough, I received only positive reactions from people who went through the shoah themselves.
It is more from the second or third generation, who grew up safely after the war, albeit perhaps with secondary trauma that I get reactions like yours-which I can completely understand, fair enough.
Someone was asking earlier about Queens Vaad gerus and it was unclear if they are still active. Are they?
ReplyDeleteI asked a rov who hates EJF about the Queens Vaad and he said he has received some reports of suspicious cases handled by them with improper motives, kabolas mitzvos, et cetera. He stressed that these cases would not cast a pall on all cases done by the Queens Vaad but it is nonetheless a concern.
crymeariver,
ReplyDeleteare you aware that also some gerim were killed by the Nazis?
Tropper / Kaplan gave $3.2 million in 2008 to American Friends of Beth El which is based at a Forest Hills, NY address belonging to Sherman Simanowitz.
ReplyDeletehttp://openjurist.org/881/f2d/1155
Simanowitz was involved in a huge fraud with convicted felon Bernard Gelb, but got off the hook by testifying against Gelb for the government.
That was not from tropele, it was from Reb Guma.
The Rambam's letter to Ovadiah the convert is timely to our discusiion
ReplyDeleteThis week we present a letter written by Rambam z"l (R' Moshe ben Maimon; "Maimonides"; 1135-1204) to a convert by the name of Ovadiah. Prior to his correspondence with Rambam, the letter's addressee had asked his teacher whether Moslems are considered idol worshippers according to halachah. In his response, that teacher had, for some reason, addressed Ovadiah as a fool. After addressing the question, Rambam adds:
Regarding the fact that your teacher answered you inappropriately, saddened you, insulted you, and called you a fool-- this is a great sin on his part. It is likely that he sinned inadvertently and should ask your forgiveness, although you are his student. Then he should fast, cry out, pray, and humble himself; maybe G-d will forgive him. Was he drunk that he did not know that the Torah demands 36 times [some of them in our parashah] that we take pains to treat a convert properly? Furthermore, while he was discussing whether Ishmaelites are idol worshippers, he should have worried about his anger which led him to insult a convert unjustly, for our Sages have said that one who becomes angry is himself considered an idolator. Know that the obligation that the Torah has imposed on us with respect to converts is great. When it comes to parents, we are commanded to honor and fear them. With regard to prophets, we are commanded to listen to them. It is possible to honor, fear, or listen to someone you do not love. In contrast, we are commanded to love converts just as we are commanded to love Hashem. Also, the Torah says that Hashem Himself loves converts.
The fact that he called you a fool is incredible. You are a person who has left his father, his birthplace and his nation, which is a great power, and because of an understanding heart came to cling to the nation which, as of today, is "loathed by the nation" [quoting Yishayah 49:7]. . . . You have recognized [the truth of Judaism] and have run after Hashem, passed down the holy road, entered under the wings of the Shechinah, and [figuratively] sat in the dust at the feet of Moshe Rabbeinu, the master of all the prophets, a"h. You desire the mitzvot and your heart has uplifted you to approach and be enlightened by the light of life [the Torah], to rise to the level of angels and rejoice in the joy of the righteous . . . . Should such a person be called a "fool"? G-d forbid. You are not a fool ("ksil") but rather an understanding person ("maskil"), a disciple of Avraham Avinu, who left his father and birthplace to follow after Hashem. May He who blessed your master Avraham and gave him his reward in this world and the World-to-Come bless you, reward you appropriately in this world and the World-to-Come, lengthen your days until you merit to teach Hashem's laws to His entire flock, and cause you to merit to see the ultimate consolation that is destined to come to Yisrael. [Reprinted in Otzrot Ha'mussar p.84]
Gateways hasn't run a Kiruv seminar in a year. Suchard is busy with Russians and shidduchim. Now he wants to take over EJF, which he evidently feels will be a step up for him.
ReplyDeleteThere is a special mitvah from the Torah to Love the Convert, besides the Mitzvah of V'ahavta l'riacha c'mocha
ReplyDeleteit's not a minhag or a d'rabbanan
it's a mitzvah d'oraisa.
see post of anonymous re. letter from Rambam to Ovadiah.must reading. We should learn from it how to be sensitive
crymeariver said...
ReplyDelete"1. Well lets see, my father lost 7 brothers and sisters in Aushwitz-
2. May family has made a concious choice to marry jewish for thousands of years despite lost "opportunities" to blend in the prevailing culture.
3. I recall being smashed in the face and called a kike while walking down a melbourne street at age 7.
Why should we let some weakling jew who decides to live with a siksah have his partner just join the club. what sacrifices have they made in being jewish? where were all the goim when millions of jews were going up the chimney at Aushwitz? sorry you can cry me a river i dont accept you and never will -"
According to my grandmother all the while I was growing up, her father was picked on by Hitler in kindergarten. This is supposed to be why my family left Germany.
As it seems that some of these posts have been talking about my group and me, I would like to clarify a few points. I am a musmach. I ask shaylos to Harav Dovid Feinstein and various Dayanim. I wrote a Gerus Guide which was well received by several rabbonim. We do not force group members to follow any one line but those who work with me spend from two to three years in the Gerus process and several months in follow-up mode. Some of my students were converted by Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein, others by the Lakewood Beis Din, etc.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who wants more information can reach me at aryehmoshen@yahoo.com
With Torah Blessings
Rabbi Aryeh Moshen
It is also important to note that someone converting to Judaism MUST live in accordance to the methods that our rabbis tell us to live. Those who claim to convert yet find excuses to dress in ways that are not tzniusdik or practice other "leniencies" may find that many authorities question their conversion and may even question the ability of their Beis Din to function as a Beis Din, thus casting doubts on other Gerim. It is the responsibility of the mentor and the Local Orthodox Rabbi to determine if they can truly support their candidate's converion and to refuse to sponsor those who are not 100% committed to listen to our Gedolim, shita.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Aryeh Moshen