In my opinion, that fact that this has come before non-Jewish sources and there still is no across the board outcry from Rabbanim to do what is necessary to stop this madness; that is a great Chilul HaShem.
This blog does not need postings of this sort. Leave the public airing of sexual abuse in the Orthodox velt to the 'other' blogs who eagerly, enthusiastically post this information. Our Gedolim do want us to deal with the Goyish media regarding these issues. Please do not attempt to dance at every chasana.
This blog does not need postings of this sort. Leave the public airing of sexual abuse in the Orthodox velt to the 'other' blogs who eagerly, enthusiastically post this information. Our Gedolim do want us to deal with the Goyish media regarding these issues. Please do not attempt to dance at every chasana. =================== Could you give me a source that "Our gedolim do not want us to deal thie Goyish meida regarding these issues?" Why doesn't this blog need to post this? Do you think it is alright for goyim to know that Jewish children are being molested but that it is not alright for Jews to know? The reason that this is a serious problem is because it has been covered up in our community. Rav Sternbuch has been encouraging me to write and publish a book on the subject - don't you consider him a gadol?
Why don't you identify yourself and your sources who you claim are demanding that we not publicize these matters?
This is in response to the post that stated that there is “no across the board outcry from Rabbanim”. ; The Rabbanim work around the clock regarding this issue. We only hear of the few cases that were mishandled, the Kolko case for instance. However, sexual abuse in the frum community is not a new problem; please tell? In whose able hands were the majority of cases throughout the years, handled; handled according to halacha, handled in a way that protected the community and the dignity of the abused and limited chilul Hashem? Certainly not in the hands of the blogs or the shomer Shabbos, am haartzim askunim advocating running to the police at the slightest hint of wrongdoing? No, these issues belong in the hands of our Rabbonim, the leaders of our communities. Further if anyone thinks that the NRP story will do one bit of good, they are dreaming, and in essence enamored of the Gentile press, the Gentile legal system and at the end, the justice of the Nations of the World.
Feel free to reach me offline regarding contacting the Gentile (even secular Jewish) media regarding sexual abuse in the frum community specifically and in general. Unfortunately, I have been involved in several high profile cases.
However, it is a different matter regarding publicizing these matters in our velt. There has been cover up and there needs to be proper exposure within our community. Nevertheless, the posting of this particular NPR piece here, will not bring the best results. We cannot use a shotgun approach. We must use the limited firepower at hand with great discernment and care. I cannot discuss this further online. Trust me that I have shimush in this issue.
The Rabbanim work around the clock regarding this issue. We only hear of the few cases that were mishandled, the Kolko case for instance. However, sexual abuse in the frum community is not a new problem; please tell? In whose able hands were the majority of cases throughout the years, handled; handled according to halacha, handled in a way that protected the community and the dignity of the abused and limited chilul Hashem? ====================== From the rabbis and psychologists that I have talked with I don't hear about the able and capable handling of the majority of cases. Who told you that the majority of cases that were covered up by the community that the victims was handed ably?
However I have heard about the community success in covering up so that for many years most in our community were not aware that these problems even existed! I have heard about the mikvos where children were regularly abused not getting watchman until the 'crazies' protested.
I did have a long talk with a therapist who works for Rav Silman about how Bnei Berak is paradise for a child molester because they have little fear of getting caught. The parents, rabbis and community leaders have generally urged people not to talk about the issue.
However, it is a different matter regarding publicizing these matters in our velt. There has been cover up and there needs to be proper exposure within our community. Nevertheless, the posting of this particular NPR piece here, will not bring the best results. ============ Maybe we don't disagree after all. I did not cite the NRP because I though their understanding was great. I did post it to show that while the claims that we should not talk about these issues because it is a chillul hashem is true - but it is even a greater chillul hashem that out motivation to do something comes about because we learn from the goyish media that we are covering up and sacrificing children to protect the system - something Rav Sternbuch told me is against the halacha.
Ideally your are right. These cases should be dealt with out of the range of the secular press by rabbis well versed in psychological matters who deal with psychologist well versed in halachic and social sensitivities and both working together with governemetn social agencies and the police - but that is not happening except in some rare instances.
It is a sad thing that papers such as the Jewish papers such as the Yated have not dealt with these matters until brought to our attention by the blogs - some of which are truely disgusting - and the secular press.
Certainly not in the hands of the blogs or the shomer Shabbos, am haartzim askunim advocating running to the police at the slightest hint of wrongdoing? No, these issues belong in the hands of our Rabbonim, the leaders of our communities. Further if anyone thinks that the NRP story will do one bit of good, they are dreaming, and in essence enamored of the Gentile press, the Gentile legal system and at the end, the justice of the Nations of the World.
Are you truly suggesting that the Poskei HaDor such as R' Eliashiv and R' Ovadiah Yosef, when advocating reporting to the police, are actually advocating a position that is contrary to Halacha?
The truth is that Rov Gedolim have advocated that position. However, somewhere between the ink they spilled upon the pages, and the ravished victims their words get lost. It becomes a matter of hide the perpetrator and shame the victim.
How ridiculous that an agent for the cover up establishment comes here at 12:44 am to insult our intelligence.
Kolko was NOT from the "few" cover ups - he got away with it for years as did virtually every other predator.
And while there are some improper people using the abuse issue improperly like a certain former Lubavitcher and others who were never abused themselves, here are some of the non-"am-haaratzim" at the forefront of the blogs: R' Yosef Blau (mashgiach of YU & eidim by alter Slabodker Rav Teitz) who gives his haskomma to Awareness Center to list predators that the public should know who to stay away from. R' Feivel Mendlowitz (semicha from Torah Vodaas & finished Shas a few times) who saved countless children by bringing about the arrest of a number of predators. R' Yudel Shain, talmid of R' Aron Kotler & baki in hilchos kashrus. R' Nochum Rosenberg who is probably the biggest baki alive in hilchos mikvaos.
And why isn't the American Agudah listening to the psak from the gedolei hador in Eretz Yisroel that requires bringing in the authorities, dehaynu Rav Elyashev, Rav Sternbuch, Rav Wosner & others?
All we got from the American Agudah so far was that they devoted a convention to attacking Mendlowitz (although not by name) when he was osek in pikuach nefesh where others failed.
If the rabbonim would not keep Jewish children safe, the media will bring attention to it and eventually the government will step in and will try to keep them safe. It took the government many years to take the Italian mafia down and will take them much less time to take down the child molesters and their enablers.
As I was told from older relative of mine (hassidic) that in the old country cases like were dealt like this: First time the molester would be warned, second time he would get beaten up, third time they would whack him and will throw his body outside the ghettoand blame it on the kozaks or whatever.
That way the kids are safe and the family of the molester can keep their reputation and his children can still find a shidduch.
Today, the molested kid family is the one who is being threaten.
Rabbi Sternbuch reference to modern day Molech worship (sacrificing children) is right on target, the UOJ alluded to it as well.
To the who posted "Are you truly suggesting that the Poskei HaDor such as R' Eliashiv and R' Ovadiah Yosef, when advocating reporting to the police, are actually advocating a position that is contrary to Halacha?"
Please do not make the horrific mistake and think that these poskim issued blanket permission to go to the authorities. Permission is granted in a case by case venue. Prove otherwise. In the meantime stop spreading your interpretation of psak halacha.
To the Monsey Tzadik: You mentioned that "Today, the molested kid family is the one who is being threatened.” You are behind the times. As this post has shown, the media has indeed stepped in. NPR picked the story up late. Local NY television did a multi-part program featuring the same Survivor group. Due to the publicity and the resultant lynch mob mentality, Rebbe is the one who is being threatened. Thus, the inyun has come full circle, for there have been several, very recent egregious false accusations of sexual abuse against Rebbes. Due to lynch mob mentality the the administrations went directly to the police. How to protect the Rebbe will be the next big issue.
My point was that the American Agudah has stopped or attempted to stop every case I know of, of reporting pedophiles to police. And those are a lot of cases. They are clearly not listening to the gedolim no matter how you slice it. There were askanim who quit the Agudah, saying that at a meeting, an Agudah lawyer advised them not to allow going to the police because the organization itself and some of it's rabbonim & officials could be implicated for past mistakes. Some of the Agudah rabbonim decided to take this legal advice which goes keneged everything in the Torah. The vociferous protests of Rav Pam and other tzadikim did not change their minds.
And there cannot be many cases where the gedolim will say to hold back, since batei din are not equipped for these kinds of investigations.
And Dayan Sillman on Rav Wosner's beis din writes clearly in a teshuva that child predators have a din of rodef. Halacha permits using ANY means to stop a rodef who you know will strike again.
At the tragic-comedies that Agudah conventions have become, they not only attack Mendlowitz and belittle any other voice of protest, but because they felt threatened that some rabbonim were citing gedolim from frierdik doros who advocate going to the police and exposing corrupt rabbonim who cover up abuse, they sent Efraim Wachsman up to the podium to lecture Klal Yisroel that we are to only listen to what the current Agudah administration tells us and not listen to any gedolim from a previous dor, unless they give us the go ahead.
I have asked poskim if there is any basis in halacha that gives Agudah & Wachsman the right to say something like that. They replied that the Agudah-Wachsman directive is preposterous.
"following through" and his fellow Agudah propagandists are detached from reality.
There were scores of Torah Temimah parents who received threatening phone calls, to silence them from going public about abuse or speaking to anyone about it. No one knows who these shadow operatives are but it is clear who sent them. Similar things happened in the Gerrer community in Boro Park.
And the Agudah's conduct has been shameful by allowing garbage like this to go on. Instead of at least shunning these mosdos, their leaders are given kibbudim at Agudah functions.
The chochomim haroim es hanolad, R' Chaim Ozer Grodzinski & R' Chaim Soloveitchik zl refused to join the Agudah because of what it would become one day. One of them said that the secretaries would eventually take over from the gedolim.
While Rav Eiashiv says that this is contingent upon certainity. R' Ovadiah Yosef(the Posek HaDor for us lowly Sephardim) does not. He says that it is an absolute Chovah to report, as can be found in Yehaveh Da'at 4:60.
Correction: I meant to say that the school teachers, i.e. the chader Rebbes are the ones being threatened. I wrote just 'Rebbe', which could be misconstrued.
Daas Torah posted: “Maybe we don't disagree after all. I did not cite the NRP because I though their understanding was great. I did post it to show that while the claims that we should not talk about these issues because it is a chillul hashem is true - but it is even a greater chillul hashem that out motivation to do something comes about because we learn from the goyish media that we are covering up and sacrificing children to protect the system - something Rav Sternbuch told me is against the halacha.”
Agreed, but this diuk that is not apparent from the mere posting of the NPR clip. There has been a great deal of secular coverage; the issue is now ‘upfront’. The major Orthodox communal organizations have gone public regarding this issue. More needs to be done, however major steps have been taken and G-d willing, there will be no turning back. This issue is very adin, with deep klal and prati implications. As a previous posting noted, the publicity has had a deep affect; the street is on fire. However, fire, in its destructive path, burns the good and bad alike.
Please take the following word of advice, for it comes from an informed and caring place. Be very careful with what you post regarding this issue. Every item must be brought to an individual of very great standing. Because of unintentionally improper askunas, the innocent can suffer along with the wicked. The lines are extremely fine here. Bloging is a dangerous avocation!
To Mekubal: R' Eliashuv, in this psak, is not addressing yichidim. Individuals, school authorities, etc., must deal with the issue of sexual abuse through the Rabbonim. This is our system; we adjudicate and hand over to the Gentile only in specific cases. This is the heart of R' Eliashuv's psak.
When the Temporal meets Divine, there are sparks of imperfection. Agudath Israel is a prime example. However, the am haartzim fighting the Aguda must look deep down into their souls and see whom they are really attacking. Are there attacks helping to build our Torah organizations or are these complaints leading simple Jews away from our community, to the arms of self-righteous propagandists, or worse?.
P.S. As an activist, I have dealt with the Aguda, from bottom to top, in America and abroad. I know the organization at it awful worst and at its exalted heights. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! There ain’t another baby.
Sad how the gadfly Agudist keeps maching avek Agudah critics as "am haaratzim".
I suppose the greatest American lamdonim of modern times do not hold a candle in his view to his college educated Moetzes members.
Misnagdim of the Agudah include R' Zelig Epstein, R' Shmuel Berenbaum, R' Avigdor Miller and the roshei yeshiva of Brisk and Beis Hatalmud, among others.
R' Berel Soloveitchik observed that the makeup of the Moetzes is pegged to political apppointments and photo ops.
R' Berel's son said in Chumash shiur that the convention has devolved into a fress fest of taanugei oylam hazeh where you hear episs a vort in the middle.
R' Mottel Weinberg was barred from ever speaking again at the convention when he said they should focus on the taaruvos in the hallway before worrying about problems outside the hotel.
Most importantly, some non-Agudah gedolim were fighting with every ounce they had to stop the child abuse at Torah Temimah.
When faced with Communist demands that they change their curriculum to add secular subjects, the Voloshzin Yeshiva(at the time only one of three in Europe) decided that instead of possibly harming younglings it was better to sacrifice the institution, and folded the Yeshiva, thereby destroying 1/3 of the Torah institutions in Europe.
Today there are three hundred Yeshivot in Jerusalem. Three maybe four months ago now the Aguda(in fighting the passage of the NY child abuse law) decided quite publicly that instead of possibly harming the institutions, it is better to sacrifice the younglings.
Why don't you provide us with a comprehensive defense of the Agudah - including their history of not protecting children from abuse claiming that the yeshiva comes first (something which Rav Sternbuch said that there is no basis in halacha) or not demonstrating leadership against gay marriage and other moral issues?
What in fact do we need the Aguda for and what have they actually accomplished?
If it weren't for the blogs, we wouldn't know crucial information that is censored by the Agudah machine.
Moshe Sherer used to cut the microphone when he didn't like what particular rabbonim had strayed from the Party Line in saying at the convention.
The Novominsker who is the current de facto chief of the Agudah Politburo, stated at the last Agudah dinner that we do not listen to "protesters and picketers".
It just so happens that askanim who are acting midina shel Torah and on the Tzavaah of R' Avigdor Miller to fight abuse cover ups at the Agudah are the very voices that the Agudah is trying to squelch out.
Regarding the Aguda's stance on the particular 'NY child abuse law' in question: read the law and then figure if this insane law were passed, how many private educational institutions would remain standing? We would be confined to home schooling. Maybe that is what you want. If so, state it.
Rav Eidensohn is asking the million dollar question. What do we need the Agudah for?
I learned in Lakewood. The view of myself and many of my chaverim, who are supposed to be the Agudah's core constituency, is to ask the same question.
The way we see it, the Agudah is serving a purpose of keeping aging hockers occupied. In their 50s & 60s, they are too fatigued to go running around with Hatzolah and the like, so they need an organization like the Agudah where they get to sit around at meetings proposing boych sevoros about the Klal's needs.
The Agudah's fear is the same as proposed by their legal counsel. They could be implicated. If they were clean, there would be nothing to be afraid of.
They are hyping bogus concerns about all or most yeshivos being shut down on account of 60 year old stories that cannot be defended against. In California & Delaware, these things never happened, because like with the proposed NY law, there are too many protections to allow it to come to that.
No yeshiva has anything to fear unless they are behaving very badly, in which case they should be shut down.
This is the Agudah's fault in any case that we have come to this. They conspired with Torah Umesorah to not allow any self-policing which is why we now require govt intervention.
What R' Avrohom Yehoshua Soloveitchik said in chumash shiur about the Agudah convention was actually much more graphic. He said the ikkur is to sit there for a weekend stuffing their faces with food.
Daas Torah, G-d forbid, if a loved one were in trouble in Eretz Israel, say mentally ill and the health care system has broken down, where do you turn? To Meretz? As an askun, I have been there and Agudath Israel has been there!
Again, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Do you know how many sexual abuse cases where not covered up? No, you don't, and will never know. The Gur Chassidim for example, a part of the Aguda, has stopped several mazikim and did not have to go to the Goyisha press secular authorities.
Daas Torah, regarding demonstrating against the Gay parades: Demonstrating succefully would bring a Pyrrhic victory, for the issue would end up in our living rooms. Were the Eidis out in force over this issue? I do not remember so, and probably for the same reason.
Any sentient person knows that a speaker at a Aguda function who 'speaks up' and doesn't glad hand is finished. He will never be invited back. Az ma, so what. From the Aguda's inception, Great Rabbonim have had to step aside and act as watchmen, e.g., the Briskers, the Lubavitchers of old, the Gedolim in America that were mentioned in the post; they watched and advised from afar. For examples see the two volume set of the biography of the Brisker Rav that was just translated into English. For the Brisker Rav's view of the Aguda see same.
As I mentioned, regarding the Aguda, the Temporal is meeting the Divine, perfection is impossible. Let this sink in. This is not simple. We all mean well, let us keep open minds. Remember, this is from one who has witnessed the worst. I am no shill.
Again, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Do you know how many sexual abuse cases where not covered up? No, you don't, and will never know. The Gur Chassidim for example, a part of the Aguda, has stopped several mazikim and did not have to go to the Goyisha press secular authorities. ================ I really appreciate getting some straight answers which are not filtered through a patronizing - "you don't know anything so just trust us - we know what is good for you" attitude.
So why is Ger protecting Mondrowitz? I was told that the Aguda was largely responsible for his escaping to Israel where he has been an example of chillul hashem for over two decades. Is this what you meant by handling mazikim and not involving the Goyisha press secular authorities? Rav Sternbuch told me that Mondrowitz should rot in jail.
Daas Torah, do you have concrete evidence that the Aguda is holding up Mondrowitz's extradition? Or, are you making this assumption based on his connection to Gur? This could be motzei shem ra., please read on. 1) The Mondrowitz case is very complicated legally, for it is only the second case to be tried in Israel under the new extradition treaty with America. The first case, the Colmer case, was cut and dry; the sexual abuse charges in America were fresh and he had been an Israeli citizen for only several months. Thus, the delay in extradition may have nothing to do with Gur. 2) I have been told by Rabbonim that the Mondrowitz case, vis a vis mesira, is not open and shut; Mondrowitz was was in a controlled environment and posed no danger to the community, unlike Colmer, who was hefker, and moving from place to place. He belonged to no one and the Rabbanim pulled the trigger; mesira was allowed. In addition, there was an issue of agunas looming. Thus, regarding mosering Mondrowitz, there may be opinions that differ from HaRav Sternbuch, shlita. Thus, if Ger is protecting Mondrowitz, it may be doing so al pi halacha. Sometimes the halacha is not to our taste. Personally, I would like to see the mazik rot in he**.
What straight answers are you looking for? The details of the krumkeit I witnessed at the Aguda, or the names and dates of the situations of pikuach nefesh where the Aguda stood up and fought. I will not provide this informatin in a pubic forum. I think you want me to fall in line with everyone else and just bash the Aguda. This is a patronizing attitude on your part and is wrong. It is one thing for the children of the Brisker Rav, or other great Rabbonim, to speak up against the Aguda; for that is their job, not ours. I shall take my own hint; I have spoken too much and perhaps out of turn. Hatzlacha Raba.
Following through - do you realize what you are saying? You are publicly acknowledging that the Aguda is run by pragmatic politicians - not the gedolim. You acknowledge that there is a lot of moral compromise for what? For the greater good!?
This is your description. You are also saying - this is the real world and this organization is critical in dealing with Olam HaZeh. The true moral figures are the gedolim who stayed out of the Aguda and are its critics. However those who are not gedolim have no right to criticize it because 1) we don't really understand what is going on 2) we meed to maintain the illusions of Daas Torah and the infallible of the Moetzes for the sake of chareidi unity.
I have major problems with this description. BTW I am not inherently an Aguda basher. My late father in law, Charlie Young z"l served as secretary of the organization before he moved on to RJJ and he was R' Moshe Scherer right hand man as well as working with Mike Tress.
Your "real politic" grates on my ears and it is not the description I heard of the Aguda when Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakov were involved In sum, I don't hear any concern with morality or Torah. Just power politics which is why the Aguda in Israel is not respected either.
I don't deny that there is a need to be reality oriented - but I have a problem with an organization which you are discribing as akin to Tammany Hall or the Daly Machine of Chicago (that is inherent in your words). Btw they and the Mafia are also good at providing medical and other benefits.
One rav told me that Rav Aaron's greatness lay not in his Torah - there were other great talmidei chachomim. Rather it lay in his mesiras nefesh for Chinuch Atzmoi despite that it was so corrupt - because that was the only way that Torah would be established in Israel. I don't think this was meant as a praise of Chinuch Atzmoi. Likewise if you are saying that there are parts of our homes which are not places of kavod - but they are still needed - I would agree with you.
Our difference is that I think that just as gedolim need to pressure these politicians to do what is right - the masses do also. The Aguda at present is not inherently a makom Torah and morality. It is simply a tool contained in an illusion.
Following through - do you realize what you are saying? You are publicly acknowledging that the Aguda is run by pragmatic politicians The Aguda has been quite upfront here, (always has) with the elevation of a lawyer, Rabbi Zweibel as the Executive Vice President. - not the gedolim. Askunim run the Aguda, taking advice from the Gedolim, did you think adaraba? (BTW, an askun must know when not to ask) You acknowledge that there is a lot of moral compromise for what? For the greater good!? BTW, are you at a madraiga to understand fully the concept of ‘moral compromise’ in klal issues? Are you perched at the lofty level to grasp the ‘greater good’ of klal Israel? In a previous post you asked me to provide “a comprehensive defense of the Agudah…” I ask you now to provide us with a comprehensive list of Aguda’s ‘moral compromises’, along with their many kiddushei Hashem. We take many things for granted in our soft, easy frum life; what ungratefulness to turn and bite the hand that helped establish this unprecedented level of comfort. What about a bare minimum of hakaoras hatov?
"Daas Torah, do you have concrete evidence that the Aguda is holding up Mondrowitz's extradition? Or, are you making this assumption based on his connection to Gur? This could be motzei shem ra"
Feivel Mendlowitz says he has information that Agudah is working with Ger to stop the extradition. Their motivation is so that Agudah officials circa 1980s don't get exposed at trial for facilitating Mondrowitz's escape. Mondrowitz was working for Ohel even though he did not have real semicha or a psych degree as he claimed. Agudah figures knew the NYPD was closing in to arrest him and tipped him off to escape to Israel. The Justice and State Depts wanted badly to extradite him for a long time but were stonewalled by DA Charles Hynes who has money funneled to his election campaigns by Iggud Harabbonim and other groups. Hynes only relented when Feivel Mendlowitz started a campaign to flood him with 1000s of protest calls that he would not be reeelected if he refused to extradite.
"The Mondrowitz case is very complicated legally, for it is only the second case to be tried in Israel under the new extradition treaty with America."
Who cares how many cases? The law is the law. Very complicated? It is very simple except for Ger trying every manouever to hold him back in Israel.
"The first case, the Colmer case, was cut and dry"
In other words, Colmer was a BT who has no political and family connections. So virtually no one fought on his behalf. (Yet there is still one delusional Agudah official who after failing to cover up for him, tried to raise the $1 million bail to keep him out of jail before trial)
"I have been told by Rabbonim that the Mondrowitz case, vis a vis mesira, is not open and shut; Mondrowitz was was in a controlled environment and posed no danger to the community. Thus, if Ger is protecting Mondrowitz, it may be doing so al pi halacha. Sometimes the halacha is not to our taste."
Ain aputrufus learayos. Israeli police found he was downloading child porn on his computer. No one was chaperoning him. Ger is protecting a predator of the worst kind. Starting in Boro Park where Mondrowitz raped boys in the basement of Gerrer yeshiva and elsewhere, whoever told Gerrer rabbonim about it were kicked out of the yeshiva to silence them. Now Ger has no smach in halacha to continue protecting him. Incredible how you are so naive or boneheaded to believe their propaganda.
Daas Torah, do you have concrete evidence that the Aguda is holding up Mondrowitz's extradition? =================== It is what is called common knowledge which I have heard from a number of frum sources. Here is an example from the JPOST
However, a prominent member of the Ger community in Jerusalem defended Mondrowitz.
"There are people who are trying to disparage Mondrowitz's name," said the source.
"Mondrowitz is a very intelligent, talented man and so are all of his children. His father is highly respected in the community. I can't believe these stories are true.
Following Through to the Post of "The Confusion" and "Daas Torah"
Daas Torah, my reply to "The Confusion" applies to your post as well, however, to say that the Aguda's protecting Mondrowitz is 'common knowledge' and backing it up with some verbage taken from the Jerusalem Post.....well, if this is part of what constitutes a body of 'common knowledge', it may be time to head out to the wildnerness. My post may enlighten you.
My comments to "The Confusion" are bolded and interspersed.
“Feivel Mendlowitz says he has information that Agudah is working with Ger to stop the extradition. Their motivation is …..” Mendlowitz has a motivation why he thinks Aguda may be working to stop the extradition. This is all you are saying. No one to my knowledge has any evidence. Regarding manipulating the Israeli Supreme Court in order to stop the extradition: the idea of the Aguda/Gur ‘fixing’ the Bagatz is laughable. This is not how the Israeli Supreme Court functions. You hatred for the Aguda has led you to classical Anti-Semitic thinking; ridiculing and humiliating the source of your hatred but at the same time ascribing to it superhuman qualities. Manipulating the Bagatz would be ascribing to the Aguda/Gur superhuman qualities! Further, since you believe the Aguda/Gur is so powerful and connected, they could certainly handle the exposure over Mondrowitz’s extradition. Ohel was involved with Colmer, his excape to Israel was probably facilitated and the heat was not so great. If the Aguda has the power to fix the Bagatz they certainly can deal with a bissel heat in NY. Even if we go with your your havamina; do you really think that the Aguda/Gur would pull in so many chips, extend so many assets for this piece of s***?
"The Mondrowitz case is very complicated legally, for it is only the second case to be tried in Israel under the new extradition treaty with America."
Who cares how many cases? The law is the law. Very complicated? It is very simple except for Ger trying every manouever to hold him back in Israel.
Extradition law is very complicated, especially the application of a new treaty. Even the Colmer extradition was complicated. You wrote "The law is the law." You know better than this. Why do we have so many lawyers?
Israeli police found he was downloading child porn on his computer. No one was chaperoning him. The porn was in his chader chaderim. How do you know what level of shemiras he was under? Ger is protecting a predator of the worst kind. Starting in Boro Park where Mondrowitz raped boys in the basement of Gerrer yeshiva and elsewhere, whoever told Gerrer rabbonim about it were kicked out of the yeshiva to silence them. What does this have to do with the current situation regarding mesira? Sounds like you want revenge. Again, your proof that Gur is protecting Mondrowitz is based on theory, not evidence. We have no evidence whatsoever that Mondrowitz, in Israel, ever molested. He was not served with extradition for watching videos; perhaps the videos were a therapy and prevented this warped, sorry excuse for a human being from actualizing his taiva and destroying others. Ger has no smach in halacha to continue protecting him. How do you know? Are you a posek with real information, not just theories? This is D'nei Nefoshes we are dealing with. Incredible how you are so naive or boneheaded to believe their propaganda. BTW, I am not an Agudist. My derech is different. Thus, I am the last to believe any propaganda. Besides, I do not read their literature, except the recipes in the Hamodia,(I like to cook).
The Jerusalem Post has only a small excerpt of what is common knowledge of Ger protecting Mondrowitz. I and others have reports from many people including dissidents inside Ger who are angry about it. These reports are not only from govt sources which are harder to verify but from statements made by Gerrer rabbonim.
Israel is like a banana republic compared to the US and is very politically corrupt. You are either naive or lying if you think Israeli govt officials cannot be gotten to.
The Agudah has fought every American law that has potential to expose them for past misdeeds. Why shouldn't they want to stop the extradition of a man they helped escape which would surely come up in any trial? You ignored this point in your "rebuttal".
So the porn was "only" bechadrei chadarim? Don't you know the yesod the Torah tells us that what the eyes see the heart desires and that hirhurim bring to mayseh? And Mondrowitz was unemployed. Ever heard of batolo mayvee lidei znus? Surely you must know these elementary facts from yeshiva. Besides that your claim of Mondrowitz being monitored is a farce as he was seen for years coming & going freely. He was also said to be carrying a weapon after some of his victims confronted him.
Finally, your preposterous claims are a slap in the face to Rav Sternbuch & the Badatz who declared al pi Hatorah that Mondrowitz is a rodef who should be jailed. Perhaps you should argue it out with them. You are basically pulling a Tropper when it comes to child abusers.
Following Through to the Post of "The Confusion" and "Daas Torah"
Daas Torah, my reply to "The Confusion" applies to your post as well, however, to say that the Aguda's protecting Mondrowitz is 'common knowledge' and backing it up with some verbage taken from the Jerusalem Post.....well, if this is part of what constitutes a body of 'common knowledge', it may be time to head out to the wildnerness. My post may enlighten you. ============== I think you are incredibly naive. Last night I had a long talk with a Gerrer Rosh Kollel who was explaining to me the high degree of discipline in Ger and how the Gerrer Rebbe's pronouncements control many areas of daily life . It is ludicrous to think that Mondrowitz is still in Israel without the knowledge or awareness and active defense of the Gerrer Rebbe.
Mondrowitz was in Israel for some 27 years, not due to Gur protection, but to an archaic Extradition Treaty. The treaty was changed two years ago and that is why the US served the Israeli government with an extradition request. Thus, with all their power and connections, how did the Aguda/Gur, so committed to protecting Mondrowitz, mess up so completely and allow for his extradition in the first place? BTW, I know the activists behind the Mondrowitz extradition; average people with little resources.
If the Eides has issued such a psak, why are they not fighting? They are experts in fighting the Banana Republic and the Aguda, and have fought over issues of much less import. Keep in mind, what HaRav Sternbuch, shlita wishes, as I wish, mentioned in conversation is one thing, a psak halacha from the Eides is another.
Remember, Zionism is a replacement theology and certain aspects will always remain ‘frum’. The Bagatz is kadosh, l’havdil, unlike say the Interior Ministry. The Israeli Supreme Court is their Sanhedrin, nebuch, and to imagine the very ones they replaced i.e. the shomrei shabbos, ‘fixing’ their Kodesh Hakodashim …This is fantasy. Areas of the Israeli government are corrupt, but not here, boychik.
Oh please. Charlie Hynes refused to extradite Mondrowitz even after the treaty was changed. Attorney Lesher from Passaic is in possession of internal documents from Justice and Foggy Bottom (State Dept) that were attempting extradition but were stonewalled by the Brooklyn DA who has loads of money steered to him by a Boro Park askan who does the bidding of various Chassidishe groups. The askan has been telling people he knows that it's not his job to determine if sex offenders are guilty, that it's only his job to keep them out of jail. Hynes comes once a year to the askan's home where checks are passed to him from interested parties.
Ger also covered up the sex abuse from yeshiva mashgiach Leizerowitz who also took off to Israel after the NY Daily News started asking questions.
It finally hit me about what in is going on in these posts. You fellows have read my posts and understand that I have no sympathy for this creature, Monsterwitz. However, please be aware that I mosered on a frum individual, who was subsequently arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned. Through this shimush, I became sensitized as to how adin and complicated the halachas are regarding mesira, and how counter-intuitive they may indeed be. Because of this experience, I feel their is void of awareness in the tzibur in general, and how mesira may become, G-d forbid, a 'dropped halacha' like the way shatnus was after the War. Chas v'shalom, I do want to sound gaivadik; it is just that I am coming from a place of painful experience. In this issue, we must learn to put our emotions aside.
It finally hit me about what in is going on in these posts. You fellows have read my posts and understand that I have no sympathy for this creature, Monsterwitz. However, please be aware that I mosered on a frum individual, who was subsequently arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned. Through this shimush, I became sensitized as to how adin and complicated the halachas are regarding mesira, and how counter-intuitive they may indeed be. ============ You raise an important issue - but I disagree with you. I haven't found a single place where it says that even though it is permitted to inform please be careful to minimize of the collateral damage.
It does say of a rodef that one should use the minimum force necessary to stop him. This is not necessarily a case of rodef.
Tzitz Eliezar(19:52) poskens that if abuse is a danger to the child it is permitted to call the police - even though he will be taken away and given to non-Jews.
Starting with BM 83a where the thieves that R' Eliezar caught were executed. It doesn't say that since the punishment was not the Torah punishment it isn't permitted
Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u’Mazik 8:11): …. Similarly all those who distress the community and harm it – it is permitted to hand them over to the nonJewish government to be beaten, imprisoned and punished. However if the person is only disturbing an individual and not the community – it is prohibited to hand him over. It is also prohibited to cause the loss of the property of the moser – even though it permitted to cause the death of the moser himself. That is because his property belongs to his heirs.
Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 388:12): Whoever is a informant (moser) regarding the community and harrasses it – it is permitted to hand over that individual to the nonJewish government to be beaten, imprisoned or to be fined. However if this individual only harrasses and individual it is prohibited to hand him over to the secular government.
To Confused: at the time of his extradition, there was no Badatz sanctioned mesira. If there was, and if the 'teshuvos of gedolei haposkim also allow(ed) for it', a lot of ink would not have been spilled in vain and a lot of misery would have been averted. Some of that ink and misery, mine. These psakim would have short-circuited all that grief. But they did not exist, verbally or in writing, just in your dreams.
What if the 'Rodef' no longer poses a current danger to the community? How is ‘current danger’ defined? How do we define today's secular government', in light of the SA. On and on... onlyposkei hador can deal with these issues, for the fifth section of Shulchan Aruch comes into play. It frightens me that you think this is stam and you begin citing m’koros.
What if the 'Rodef' no longer poses a current danger to the community? How is ‘current danger’ defined? How do we define today's secular government', in light of the SA. On and on... onlyposkei hador can deal with these issues, for the fifth section of Shulchan Aruch comes into play. It frightens me that you think this is stam and you begin citing m’koros. ============ A child molester has a chazaka that he is a danger. I am surpised at your comment because it shows that you really are not familiar with the literature. I asked for a single source to back up your statement. Claiming the fith chelek of the Shulchan Aruch is a cop out.
There is a solid literature on this matter and it doesn't say what you are saying.
You stated that "A child molester has a chazaka that he is a danger". A danger enough to moser?, even if he is contained and no longer deemed a danger to the community? I have shimush here, from huge Talmidei Chachamim, poskim, that this is not so. You see, the Jew I mosered was a child molsester. You are quick to cite, so start citing.
You stated that "A child molester has a chazaka that he is a danger". A danger enough to moser?, even if he is contained and no longer deemed a danger to the community? I have shimush here, from huge Talmidei Chachamim, poskim, that this is not so. You see, the Jew I mosered was a child molsester. You are quick to cite, so start citing. ========= Did anybody ever tell you that you are rude! You feel guilty for what you did and perhaps some rabbis have criticized you. That isn't proof that you did anything wrong.
You are the one who has been making claims without citing a single source. I just cited a number of sources to which you have not addressed yourself.
Anyway to answer your question. Why don't you call Rav Sternbuch and describe what happened and ask him if what you did was wrong. He has told me that a child abuser is likely to repeat - which is the same understanding that psychologist have.
Furthermore what do you mean contained. He promised to behave himself? Doesn't mean anything. He has a 24 hour guard - perhaps. He has been told he will be seriously beaten if he repeats his crime - sometimes this works but not always. Or does it simply mean he has agreed to stay away from children - doesn't mean much.
Please show me any source which says I need to take a chance with my kids when someone claims that the molester has been contained?
If he is paralyzed or castrated perhaps you are right - but I assume that is not the case. Please cite a single source.
It sounds like he may have been told incorrect information by corrupt rabbonim in on the cover ups. But his biggest problem is his post dramatic guilt disorder.
To further explain, the recidivism rate of molesters is almost 100%. America also does not have the same din of the malchus of old as per R' Shlomo Zalman and other gedolim.
And, the letter from the Badatz was issued before Hynes was forced to extradite by Mendlowitz's pressure.
But don't hold your breath. Even when Mondrowitz is brought back, Hynes will probably try to let him off easy like he did with Kolko, Brenner and others. Hynes lied to the public that Kolko's victims refused to testify and gave him only probation for "child endangerment". Hynes knows that chassidim vote in blocks and does not want to anger the Gerrer and others.
Confusion: Ask Michael Lesher for a copy of such a letter from Badatz. If it exists, he will be happy to produce it. Your friend Mendlowitz is not even a foot note in the saga.
Daas Torah: Sorry, I really did not mean to be rude. I hate to wake you up, but many molesters have been 'contained'. Through my shimush, I learned that our Rabbanim are aware that containment has become more difficult as our community expands and modernity seeps into our velt. Yes, certainly a molester is likely to repeat, this is pshat, and is just one of the many issues involved in issuing such a psak halacha, a shmeck of what goes into the pot. One Rav mentioned that if there was psak halacha to moser the Monster, a major reason would be deterence. We do not have a Sanhedrin, nor a King, and we can't kill the bast***s; thus, mosering may be the best way to achieve deterrence. From what I understand, this was part of what informed the Colmer decision. Some say containment was possible there, I don’t know.
BTW, I have no guilt. How could I, for I am a Shulchan Aruch Jew, who was given a clear psak by gedolei hador. I slept like a baby.
However, please be aware that I mosered on a frum individual, who was subsequently arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned. Through this shimush, I became sensitized as to how adin and complicated the halachas are regarding mesira, and how counter-intuitive they may indeed be. Because of this experience, I feel their is void of awareness in the tzibur in general, and how mesira may become, G-d forbid, a 'dropped halacha' like the way shatnus was after the War. Chas v'shalom, I do want to sound gaivadik; it is just that I am coming from a place of painful experience. In this issue, we must learn to put our emotions aside.
however on another occasion Following Through said... BTW, I have no guilt. How could I, for I am a Shulchan Aruch Jew, who was given a clear psak by gedolei hador. I slept like a baby.
=============== Are there two of you? One has no guilt just got his psak and the other one had a painful experience in being moser?
So far you haven' shared your shimush, explained what confinement means, offered a single citation, have not quoted a single sevora from your interaction with gedolim - so what are you contributing to the discussion?
You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch or that you observe what other's tell you is the halacha?
R' Ovadia states very clearly in Yahave Da'at 4:60 there is a Chovah to moser anyone who has the possibilyt of being a nezek the to tzibor. He details everything from a person with an infectious illness, to one who disobeys traffic laws, to a common thief, and states very clearly that if a person has the potential to be nezek one has a Chiyuv to report him immediately to the proper secular authorities.
That is a clear psak halacha with a clear and documented source. What is your supposed source? Which supposed posek or Gadol haDor said it?
only poskei hador can deal with these issues, for the fifth section of Shulchan Aruch comes into play The supposed "fifth section of the Shulchan Aruch" is seichel. While I will admit that very often it seems to be in very short supply even amongst some supposed gedolim it is not the sole jurisdiction of Poskei HaDor.
Mekubel: R'Ovadia, shlita's psak covers nezek, not dinei nefashos. Thus, this has no connection to mosering a child molester. What source are you asking from me? I have been hounding you fellows for a pshak halacha that allowed the Monster to be mosered
To Daas Torah: You posted, "Are there two of you? One has no guilt just got his psak and the other one had a painful experience in being moser?
Have you not the breath of experience and open enough mind to realize that an individual may have a broad range of emotions in a complicated situation? Thus, I had no guilt and slept like a baby the night the pedophile was arrested, for I did my duty as halacha prescribed. The painful part was this man has devoted parents, wife and children. The childrens' pain is particularly painful. He indeed reached out for psychological help, several times. To see a Jewish family destroyed, and not to feel pained, one would have to be an emotional neuter. You will not like this Daas Torah, but the molester's family situation is also thrown into the soup, so to speak, and does factor into the decision to moser. {This is part of the seforas I watched being discussed(*see below)} As I mentioned previously, I was told that Colmer's wife faced possible agunas, and this was one of factors that led to his being mosered. I realize I may have contradicted myself earlier regarding Colmer. In one post, I mentioned he was hefker and moving from place to place and in another post, I said that I heard he could have been contained. I do not hold an opinion here. I just threw this in for food for thought to show the extent to which the mesius is taken into account as the posken weigh the many factors.
Daas Torah, I hope you consider these seforas, which I gleaned by working with the Rabbanim. Here are several others regarding containment. Rabbanim are looking into GPS devices and other state of the art protection devices. Containment in small tsiburs with knowledge and permission of communities has been discussed in my presence. Extensive dealings with psychiatric specialists discussing drug therapies that would rend the molester harmless have also been vetted. We must work to strengthen our community infrastructure to see that mesira is seldom used and when used, is used al pi halacha. We are not a bunch of Italian undertakers with a red roses pinned to our lapels.
Daas Torah posted "You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch or that you observe what other's tell you is the halacha?"
I am a BT who is far from having mastered the Shulchan Aruch. I can chap pshat from the Mishnah Brura, OK, not great. I study the Kitzer, attend shiurim, and ask questions feely to several poskim and friends more learned than I. At the end I always seek the advice of our family posik. My favorite learning is starting with the Tur, going to the Gemoras, hitting the Rambam and then working our way back to the commentaries. This is a touch of Gan Eden. My Loshen Kodesh skills are poor, thus I cannot attempt this sort of learning alone. Finding a skilled and patient chavrusa is difficult. The main thrust of my learning is Gemora, not to halacha l’misa. Six months ago, I began attending a gemora shiur using a unique marking system, see here, http://www.gemaramarkings.com/faq.htm this has been a great tool, I am mastering the use of it and am greatly indebted to these fine people who developed this learning aide. Please look at the site. You may know others who may benefit from it.
Mekubel: R'Ovadia, shlita's psak covers nezek, not dinei nefashos. Thus, this has no connection to mosering a child molester. What source are you asking from me? I have been hounding you fellows for a pshak halacha that allowed the Monster to be mosered
================== From your last post it is clear that You have no credibility as someone who can competently discuss the halachic sources and issues in this matter. You apparently do not understand nor are you familiar with the sources that I cited nor the many references which I have posted on this blog. Are you familiar with the discussion in the Nishmas Avarahm or the series of teshuvos from gedolim found in Yeshurun concerning mesira for child molesters? Have you gone through Simon 388 in Choshen Mishpat or Simon 2 in Choshen Mishpat? Do you know the Chasam Sofer on Gittin 7a and the use of this by the Minchas Yitzchok? Have you gone over the basic teshuva of R' Ovadiya Yosef concerning mesira in Yechave Daas 4:60? Have you seen R' Broyde's article on mesira?
Rabbi you are pulling rank on me. I indicated clearly that I am not a Talmid Chacham; hence, I am a non-literate in the intricacies of the sources regarding mazikim, such as pedophiles, and the laws of mesira. However, you asked me for 'sefaros' that I witnessed during the course of my activism. These details illuminate the abovementioned halachic sources you cite (and others, certainly), for they show the halacha process being activated in a real case. You obviously did like the seforas. Perhaps it is difficult to accept that not all is cut and dry when applied to the real world. I did not like it either.
If you don't like the message, don't shoot the messenger
Rabbi you are pulling rank on me. I indicated clearly that I am not a Talmid Chacham; hence, I am a non-literate in the intricacies of the sources regarding mazikim, such as pedophiles, and the laws of mesira. However, you asked me for 'sefaros' that I witnessed during the course of my activism. These details illuminate the abovementioned halachic sources you cite (and others, certainly), for they show the halacha process being activated in a real case. You obviously did like the seforas. Perhaps it is difficult to accept that not all is cut and dry when applied to the real world. I did not like it either.
If you don't like the message, don't shoot the messenger ============ I am not pulling rank and but you mistakenly have assumed that you are qualified to be the messenger of the gedolim to explain what and why they did what they did.
It seems clear at this point that what you thought you are doing and what we thought you are doing are not accurate.
The gedolim that you spoke with didn't appoint you to explain what they did and what they told you and why they told you - you are not their messenger.
Perhaps you should be considered an observer? However you keep providing halachic explanations for what happened - despite the clear fact that you are not familiar with the halacha in this area.
Consequently when you started talking about the impact on the perpetrator's family as a consideration in mesira - it simply doesn't compute. That is why I said tell me a single source that collateral damage to others is a consideration in the halacha of mesira.
In other words the halachic vocabulary you claimed that they were using with you is not commensurate with the halachic literature. You are not in a position to explain the discrepancies and I don't know why you tried. In addition you keep making the condescending and innaccurate judgment that I just don't realize the complexity of these halachos in the real world.
In sum, you seem to be a nice sensitive guy but you have bitten off way more than you can chew.
Rabbi, I re-read all my comments on this thread and realize that you not only pulled rank, but you have treated me with a glaring lack of respect. You set me up and then discredited my posts. You asked, "You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch...? You probably sensed that I am a BT (you fellows can tell, easily) and my answer clearly indicated that I am not a Talmid Chacham. After setting me up, you schected, by stating, "...it is clear that "You have no credibility as someone who can competently discuss the halachic sources and issues in this matter." However, as the moderator, you were well aware that I never discussed any halachic source brought down in these discussions, nor expressed an opinion regarding these sources. (In one instance, I clarified pshat in R' Eliashuv's psak, z'oo) As requested, I shared seforas regarding the cases I witnessed and shared my opinions regarding bloging issues, “issues of the day”.
I come to your blog only to download Rav Sternbuch's divrei Torah in English. I never posted before and did so because I saw the link to the NPR piece and thought your blog was not the place for such a link. I will check to see if you reply to these last two postings. Rabbi, I have a yetzer hara and I carefully limit my Internet use. Because of this incident, your site could become problematic for me and thus, in several day time, I will delete it from my 'favorites', and will not be accessing the site again, bli nedir. It would be a great kindness if you could forward the English divrei Torah of Rav Sternbuch to me at choice613@gmail.com
A story I heard from the lips of R' Yaakov Hillel Shlit"a on why he no longer has a "B"T Yeshiva". Years after he founded his Yeshiva that had levels from learning the depths of Kabbalah b'iyun to a full B"T program, he finally had a chance to visit with his Rav HaRishon, the Rosh Yeshiva of Gateshead. He sat and spoke with Rav and finally was telling him about the Yeshiva that he, Rav Hillel, had founded. He said, "We even have a B"T Yeshiva". His own Rav yelled at him, "Don't call it that, don't ever call it that. Your job is to make them as serious a Ben Torah as a person born religious, what is more you transgress halacha by reminding them of their past deeds." R' Hillel says that after that encounter he integrated the "B"T Yeshiva into the regular Yeshiva as just a few more levels of learning, so that the students would always know that their were no limits.
Don't limit yourself to a label. Don't assume that your Torah knowledge is inferior because of your background. B"H for the age in which we live, with all of its benefits. A person today can learn at any level in almost any language. The choice is simply yours. My advice, go to: http://www.shemayisrael.com/smicha/ pick a program and go through it. They have a proven track record of taking people with no background and turning out Talmidei Chochomim in the end.
You must understand that no one set you up or pulled rank. With the language you used and forcefulness of your arguments, you presented yourself as someone with a vast Torah background and access to major Gedolim.
Rabbi, I re-read all my comments on this thread and realize that you not only pulled rank, but you have treated me with a glaring lack of respect. You set me up and then discredited my posts. You asked, "You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch...? You probably sensed that I am a BT ================= You obviously come from a different culture with different rules of enagement and interaction.
In the world of Torah, discussion of Torah ideas are described as the battle of Torah and those who engage in it are called warriors.
When you make pronouncements regarding child abuse and mesira - and I know that you are wrong then it is important to convey the seriousness of the misinformation that you are communicating.
I didn't set you up - you are imputing malicious intent to my words - but I did attempt to ascertain your competence to make pronouncements on issues that are very critical for understanding child abuse. This is not simply a debating club.
If you had been less combative and self-assured in your pronouncement then I would have responded differently to your errors. If you had raised question instead of criticizing my understanding than I would have responded with an attempt to explain. But you asserted that you already knew the proper understanding - but in fact you don't
You can't make critical assertion that I am ignorant of how halacha works in the real world and expect me to respond, "oh really, I didn't realize - thanks for pointing it out."
People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues and it would be irresponsible of me to allow ideas I consider wrong to get a free pass.
Regarding Rav Sternbuch - your request to be emailed his articles so that you don't need to access my blog is not a realistic use of my time. Perhaps you can contract Rabbi Travis and ask him to add you to his email list.
However, I would suggest you at least occasionally log on because I think you need to learn the language and style of discussion in the Torah world. You obviously have things to contribute to the rest of us. But you do need to know how to do it.
Of course it is. Since you never know who is behind the comment you receive, you cannot pretend to have a discussion between outstanding sages on this medium in this form.
Sorry, Daas Torah.
If you chose a medium where Ploni Almoni can chime in, and anonymously to boot, you cannot pretend that the outcome is reliable in any form.
So I think you should have a bit more respect for the Ploni who comments on your page and set wrongs right in a different tone.
This said: I read many previous comments and I am not that convinced that you yourself are an outstanding torah scholar.
"People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues"
No, not really.
This does not mean that your blog has no worth. You bring up interesting themes sometimes interesting discussions take place, so it is a nice place to spend some time if you do not have anything else to do.
However, it is self-evident that you cannot take everything that is said on an anonymous internet-forum for face value. There are just too many sources of error, beginning with the identification of the posters...
You can get quite good answers. but there is always the risk that 1) someone tries to mislead you on purpose 2) someone gives you a wrong answer because he does not know better 3) someone just makes a error when writing an answer.
So before I take anything from the forum, I double-check with other sources.
1) I never mentioned the "impact on the perpetrator's family as a consideration in mesira." I just mentioned how it affected me emotionally.
2) What sort of halachic explanations did I offer? I cannot even properly give over an halachic explanation! I just reported the seforas that I witnessed. What halachic vocabulary did I use?, for I have no real vocabulary; I just gave over in layman's terms the things I witnessed.
3) I am not a messenger of the Gedolim, nor did I claim to be. However, it was apparant that I was dealing with poskim of note and that poskei hador delivered the final hammer blow in the particular case where I mosered the molester.
4) Rabbi, I do not believe you have been involved in such a case. Hence, with all due koved, you just may not be aware of how complex a case like this may be. Your comments lead me to this conclusion. That you can quote from here and there in the SA and with a wave of the hand, sof misa.
BTW, I feel you are a very fine man who is of the anshei tsibor, truly, mamash. You mentioned that your father-in-law served in the Aguda, in let us say, better times. May you be matzliach in your work.
You sidestepped all over again and went ad hominem. Your attacking me was really an assault on the great Talmudei Chachamim I worked with. In these posts, I truthfully conveyed a bit of what I witnessed in laymans terms. You shot the messenger.
You are truly trying to accomplish with this site, but don't get carried away. A site that promulgates a true understanding of Torah issues, would not have posted the NPR link without explanation. Through my prodding, you made the proper diuk in the following post in this thread, "Maybe we don't disagree after all. I did not cite the NRP because I though their understanding was great. I did post it to show that while the claims that we should not talk about these issues because it is a chillul hashem is true - but it is even a greater chillul hashem that out motivation to do something comes about because we learn from the goyish media that we are covering up and sacrificing children to protect the system". However, this was not explicit in the original post on your site.
You wrote, “People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues”. Wake up, for in reality, this blog is maybe a half step up from the UOJ and is a zillion miles from a Beis Medrash. Stop fooling yourself.
If you could take a moment ans send me R' Travis's email address, it would be greatly appreciate. Again, choice613@gmail.com.
4) Rabbi, I do not believe you have been involved in such a case. Hence, with all due koved, you just may not be aware of how complex a case like this may be. Your comments lead me to this conclusion. That you can quote from here and there in the SA and with a wave of the hand, sof misa.
I cannot speak for D"T, but I have been and I currently am dealing with such issues. I consult with major rabbanim about the ramifications as well as what is halachically permissible.
that poskei hador delivered the final hammer blow in the particular case where I mosered the molester. Was this R' Eliashiv or R' Yosef? If we go a little further back we can include R' Shach and R' Feinstein, also S.Z. Auerbach, however aside from those individuals there has not been a Rabbi honored with such a title.
What halachic vocabulary did I use? Trust me that I have shimush in this issue. Shimush generally means that you have not only adequately learned all of the relevant halachot, but that you also have learned from a true Talmid Chochom or posek how to apply them.
Wake up, for in reality, this blog is maybe a half step up from the UOJ and is a zillion miles from a Beis Medrash. Stop fooling yourself. This statement is totally inappropriate. Many blogs that deal with these issues are cesspools of lashon hara, without a shred of halachic support, discussion or proof for their claims. Whereas here you will find that, the lashon hara is kept at a minimum while maintaining conversation. The halichic issues are fully sourced, cited and discussed. That is a mile of difference.
You wrote, “People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues”. Wake up, for in reality, this blog is maybe a half step up from the UOJ and is a zillion miles from a Beis Medrash. Stop fooling yourself. ============= If you can't see the difference then you really have problems. But in your own estimation why are you debasing yourself - don't you have more important things to do with your time?
f you could take a moment ans send me R' Travis's email address, it would be greatly appreciate. Again, choice613@gmail.com. ============== Sorry but I don't have it.
This does not mean that your blog has no worth. You bring up interesting themes sometimes interesting discussions take place, so it is a nice place to spend some time if you do not have anything else to do. ============== This is really sad. You really have nothing else to do? It is also sad that you view this blog as basically bubble gum for the mind - and yet still log on.
please make a serious effort to find something to do that you feel has value.
"This is really sad. You really have nothing else to do? It is also sad that you view this blog as basically bubble gum for the mind - and yet still log on."
Why? Internet, blogs, fora are in general "bubble gums for the mind", as you said quite accurately.
What we have here are two drey kops wasting everyone's time.
One is someone who has no background in halacha and thinks he can speak chutzpadik to the talmid chochom running the forum because he was privy to a discussion or two with some rabbonim, that in his own mind makes him a bar plugta.
Then we have a malicious troublemaker called "observed" sensing an opportunity who jumps into the fray to beat up on Rav Eidensohn because he has a bone to pick, probably because he is a troll for Tropper.
If they keep arguing the same non-points, I would advise that their IPs be blocked from allowing them to post.
In my opinion, that fact that this has come before non-Jewish sources and there still is no across the board outcry from Rabbanim to do what is necessary to stop this madness; that is a great Chilul HaShem.
ReplyDeleteThis blog does not need postings of this sort. Leave the public airing of sexual abuse in the Orthodox velt to the 'other' blogs who eagerly, enthusiastically post this information. Our Gedolim do want us to deal with the Goyish media regarding these issues. Please do not attempt to dance at every chasana.
ReplyDeleteJack said...
ReplyDeleteThis blog does not need postings of this sort. Leave the public airing of sexual abuse in the Orthodox velt to the 'other' blogs who eagerly, enthusiastically post this information. Our Gedolim do want us to deal with the Goyish media regarding these issues. Please do not attempt to dance at every chasana.
===================
Could you give me a source that "Our gedolim do not want us to deal thie Goyish meida regarding these issues?"
Why doesn't this blog need to post this? Do you think it is alright for goyim to know that Jewish children are being molested but that it is not alright for Jews to know?
The reason that this is a serious problem is because it has been covered up in our community. Rav Sternbuch has been encouraging me to write and publish a book on the subject - don't you consider him a gadol?
Why don't you identify yourself and your sources who you claim are demanding that we not publicize these matters?
This is in response to the post that stated that there is “no across the board outcry from Rabbanim”. ; The Rabbanim work around the clock regarding this issue. We only hear of the few cases that were mishandled, the Kolko case for instance. However, sexual abuse in the frum community is not a new problem; please tell? In whose able hands were the majority of cases throughout the years, handled; handled according to halacha, handled in a way that protected the community and the dignity of the abused and limited chilul Hashem? Certainly not in the hands of the blogs or the shomer Shabbos, am haartzim askunim advocating running to the police at the slightest hint of wrongdoing? No, these issues belong in the hands of our Rabbonim, the leaders of our communities. Further if anyone thinks that the NRP story will do one bit of good, they are dreaming, and in essence enamored of the Gentile press, the Gentile legal system and at the end, the justice of the Nations of the World.
ReplyDeleteFeel free to reach me offline regarding contacting the Gentile (even secular Jewish) media regarding sexual abuse in the frum community specifically and in general. Unfortunately, I have been involved in several high profile cases.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it is a different matter regarding publicizing these matters in our velt. There has been cover up and there needs to be proper exposure within our community. Nevertheless, the posting of this particular NPR piece here, will not bring the best results. We cannot use a shotgun approach. We must use the limited firepower at hand with great discernment and care. I cannot discuss this further online. Trust me that I have shimush in this issue.
The Rabbanim work around the clock regarding this issue. We only hear of the few cases that were mishandled, the Kolko case for instance. However, sexual abuse in the frum community is not a new problem; please tell? In whose able hands were the majority of cases throughout the years, handled; handled according to halacha, handled in a way that protected the community and the dignity of the abused and limited chilul Hashem?
ReplyDelete======================
From the rabbis and psychologists that I have talked with I don't hear about the able and capable handling of the majority of cases. Who told you that the majority of cases that were covered up by the community that the victims was handed ably?
However I have heard about the community success in covering up so that for many years most in our community were not aware that these problems even existed! I have heard about the mikvos where children were regularly abused not getting watchman until the 'crazies' protested.
I did have a long talk with a therapist who works for Rav Silman about how Bnei Berak is paradise for a child molester because they have little fear of getting caught. The parents, rabbis and community leaders have generally urged people not to talk about the issue.
Jack wrote:
ReplyDeleteHowever, it is a different matter regarding publicizing these matters in our velt. There has been cover up and there needs to be proper exposure within our community. Nevertheless, the posting of this particular NPR piece here, will not bring the best results.
============
Maybe we don't disagree after all. I did not cite the NRP because I though their understanding was great. I did post it to show that while the claims that we should not talk about these issues because it is a chillul hashem is true - but it is even a greater chillul hashem that out motivation to do something comes about because we learn from the goyish media that we are covering up and sacrificing children to protect the system - something Rav Sternbuch told me is against the halacha.
Ideally your are right. These cases should be dealt with out of the range of the secular press by rabbis well versed in psychological matters who deal with psychologist well versed in halachic and social sensitivities and both working together with governemetn social agencies and the police - but that is not happening except in some rare instances.
It is a sad thing that papers such as the Jewish papers such as the Yated have not dealt with these matters until brought to our attention by the blogs - some of which are truely disgusting - and the secular press.
Certainly not in the hands of the blogs or the shomer Shabbos, am haartzim askunim advocating running to the police at the slightest hint of wrongdoing? No, these issues belong in the hands of our Rabbonim, the leaders of our communities. Further if anyone thinks that the NRP story will do one bit of good, they are dreaming, and in essence enamored of the Gentile press, the Gentile legal system and at the end, the justice of the Nations of the World.
ReplyDeleteAre you truly suggesting that the Poskei HaDor such as R' Eliashiv and R' Ovadiah Yosef, when advocating reporting to the police, are actually advocating a position that is contrary to Halacha?
The truth is that Rov Gedolim have advocated that position. However, somewhere between the ink they spilled upon the pages, and the ravished victims their words get lost. It becomes a matter of hide the perpetrator and shame the victim.
How ridiculous that an agent for the cover up establishment comes here at 12:44 am to insult our intelligence.
ReplyDeleteKolko was NOT from the "few" cover ups - he got away with it for years as did virtually every other predator.
And while there are some improper people using the abuse issue improperly like a certain former Lubavitcher and others who were never abused themselves, here are some of the non-"am-haaratzim" at the forefront of the blogs: R' Yosef Blau (mashgiach of YU & eidim by alter Slabodker Rav Teitz) who gives his haskomma to Awareness Center to list predators that the public should know who to stay away from. R' Feivel Mendlowitz (semicha from Torah Vodaas & finished Shas a few times) who saved countless children by bringing about the arrest of a number of predators. R' Yudel Shain, talmid of R' Aron Kotler & baki in hilchos kashrus. R' Nochum Rosenberg who is probably the biggest baki alive in hilchos mikvaos.
And why isn't the American Agudah listening to the psak from the gedolei hador in Eretz Yisroel that requires bringing in the authorities, dehaynu Rav Elyashev, Rav Sternbuch, Rav Wosner & others?
All we got from the American Agudah so far was that they devoted a convention to attacking Mendlowitz (although not by name) when he was osek in pikuach nefesh where others failed.
If the rabbonim would not keep Jewish children safe, the media will bring attention to it and eventually the government will step in and will try to keep them safe. It took the government many years to take the Italian mafia down and will take them much less time to take down the child molesters and their enablers.
ReplyDeleteAs I was told from older relative of mine (hassidic) that in the old country cases like were dealt like this: First time the molester would be warned, second time he would get beaten up, third time they would whack him and will throw his body outside the ghettoand blame it on the kozaks or whatever.
That way the kids are safe and the family of the molester can keep their reputation and his children can still find a shidduch.
Today, the molested kid family is the one who is being threaten.
Rabbi Sternbuch reference to modern day Molech worship (sacrificing children) is right on target, the UOJ alluded to it as well.
Great minds thinks alike
To the who posted "Are you truly suggesting that the Poskei HaDor such as R' Eliashiv and R' Ovadiah Yosef, when advocating reporting to the police, are actually advocating a position that is contrary to Halacha?"
ReplyDeletePlease do not make the horrific mistake and think that these poskim issued blanket permission to go to the authorities. Permission is granted in a case by case venue. Prove otherwise. In the meantime stop spreading your interpretation of psak halacha.
To the Monsey Tzadik: You mentioned that "Today, the molested kid family is the one who is being threatened.” You are behind the times. As this post has shown, the media has indeed stepped in. NPR picked the story up late. Local NY television did a multi-part program featuring the same Survivor group. Due to the publicity and the resultant lynch mob mentality, Rebbe is the one who is being threatened. Thus, the inyun has come full circle, for there have been several, very recent egregious false accusations of sexual abuse against Rebbes. Due to lynch mob mentality the the administrations went directly to the police. How to protect the Rebbe will be the next big issue.
ReplyDeleteMy point was that the American Agudah has stopped or attempted to stop every case I know of, of reporting pedophiles to police. And those are a lot of cases. They are clearly not listening to the gedolim no matter how you slice it. There were askanim who quit the Agudah, saying that at a meeting, an Agudah lawyer advised them not to allow going to the police because the organization itself and some of it's rabbonim & officials could be implicated for past mistakes. Some of the Agudah rabbonim decided to take this legal advice which goes keneged everything in the Torah. The vociferous protests of Rav Pam and other tzadikim did not change their minds.
ReplyDeleteAnd there cannot be many cases where the gedolim will say to hold back, since batei din are not equipped for these kinds of investigations.
And Dayan Sillman on Rav Wosner's beis din writes clearly in a teshuva that child predators have a din of rodef. Halacha permits using ANY means to stop a rodef who you know will strike again.
At the tragic-comedies that Agudah conventions have become, they not only attack Mendlowitz and belittle any other voice of protest, but because they felt threatened that some rabbonim were citing gedolim from frierdik doros who advocate going to the police and exposing corrupt rabbonim who cover up abuse, they sent Efraim Wachsman up to the podium to lecture Klal Yisroel that we are to only listen to what the current Agudah administration tells us and not listen to any gedolim from a previous dor, unless they give us the go ahead.
I have asked poskim if there is any basis in halacha that gives Agudah & Wachsman the right to say something like that. They replied that the Agudah-Wachsman directive is preposterous.
"following through" and his fellow Agudah propagandists are detached from reality.
ReplyDeleteThere were scores of Torah Temimah parents who received threatening phone calls, to silence them from going public about abuse or speaking to anyone about it. No one knows who these shadow operatives are but it is clear who sent them. Similar things happened in the Gerrer community in Boro Park.
And the Agudah's conduct has been shameful by allowing garbage like this to go on. Instead of at least shunning these mosdos, their leaders are given kibbudim at Agudah functions.
The chochomim haroim es hanolad, R' Chaim Ozer Grodzinski & R' Chaim Soloveitchik zl refused to join the Agudah because of what it would become one day. One of them said that the secretaries would eventually take over from the gedolim.
Following through,
ReplyDeletePlease learn the relevant halachot and teshuvot before you feel the need to criticize.
First you can find here the original Hebrew Teshuva of R' Eliashiv.
with a nice translation here
While Rav Eiashiv says that this is contingent upon certainity. R' Ovadiah Yosef(the Posek HaDor for us lowly Sephardim) does not. He says that it is an absolute Chovah to report, as can be found in Yehaveh Da'at 4:60.
Correction: I meant to say that the school teachers, i.e. the chader Rebbes are the ones being threatened. I wrote just 'Rebbe', which could be misconstrued.
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah posted: “Maybe we don't disagree after all. I did not cite the NRP because I though their understanding was great. I did post it to show that while the claims that we should not talk about these issues because it is a chillul hashem is true - but it is even a greater chillul hashem that out motivation to do something comes about because we learn from the goyish media that we are covering up and sacrificing children to protect the system - something Rav Sternbuch told me is against the halacha.”
ReplyDeleteAgreed, but this diuk that is not apparent from the mere posting of the NPR clip. There has been a great deal of secular coverage; the issue is now ‘upfront’. The major Orthodox communal organizations have gone public regarding this issue. More needs to be done, however major steps have been taken and G-d willing, there will be no turning back. This issue is very adin, with deep klal and prati implications. As a previous posting noted, the publicity has had a deep affect; the street is on fire. However, fire, in its destructive path, burns the good and bad alike.
Please take the following word of advice, for it comes from an informed and caring place. Be very careful with what you post regarding this issue. Every item must be brought to an individual of very great standing. Because of unintentionally improper askunas, the innocent can suffer along with the wicked. The lines are extremely fine here. Bloging is a dangerous avocation!
To Mekubal: R' Eliashuv, in this psak, is not addressing yichidim. Individuals, school authorities, etc., must deal with the issue of sexual abuse through the Rabbonim. This is our system; we adjudicate and hand over to the Gentile only in specific cases. This is the heart of R' Eliashuv's psak.
ReplyDeleteWhen the Temporal meets Divine, there are sparks of imperfection. Agudath Israel is a prime example. However, the am haartzim fighting the Aguda must look deep down into their souls and see whom they are really attacking. Are there attacks helping to build our Torah organizations or are these complaints leading simple Jews away from our community, to the arms of self-righteous propagandists, or worse?.
P.S. As an activist, I have dealt with the Aguda, from bottom to top, in America and abroad. I know the organization at it awful worst and at its exalted heights. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! There ain’t another baby.
Sad how the gadfly Agudist keeps maching avek Agudah critics as "am haaratzim".
ReplyDeleteI suppose the greatest American lamdonim of modern times do not hold a candle in his view to his college educated Moetzes members.
Misnagdim of the Agudah include R' Zelig Epstein, R' Shmuel Berenbaum, R' Avigdor Miller and the roshei yeshiva of Brisk and Beis Hatalmud, among others.
R' Berel Soloveitchik observed that the makeup of the Moetzes is pegged to political apppointments and photo ops.
R' Berel's son said in Chumash shiur that the convention has devolved into a fress fest of taanugei oylam hazeh where you hear episs a vort in the middle.
R' Mottel Weinberg was barred from ever speaking again at the convention when he said they should focus on the taaruvos in the hallway before worrying about problems outside the hotel.
Most importantly, some non-Agudah gedolim were fighting with every ounce they had to stop the child abuse at Torah Temimah.
When faced with Communist demands that they change their curriculum to add secular subjects, the Voloshzin Yeshiva(at the time only one of three in Europe) decided that instead of possibly harming younglings it was better to sacrifice the institution, and folded the Yeshiva, thereby destroying 1/3 of the Torah institutions in Europe.
ReplyDeleteToday there are three hundred Yeshivot in Jerusalem. Three maybe four months ago now the Aguda(in fighting the passage of the NY child abuse law) decided quite publicly that instead of possibly harming the institutions, it is better to sacrifice the younglings.
Something has gone seriously wrong
Jack and following through..
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you provide us with a comprehensive defense of the Agudah - including their history of not protecting children from abuse claiming that the yeshiva comes first (something which Rav Sternbuch said that there is no basis in halacha) or not demonstrating leadership against gay marriage and other moral issues?
What in fact do we need the Aguda for and what have they actually accomplished?
If it weren't for the blogs, we wouldn't know crucial information that is censored by the Agudah machine.
ReplyDeleteMoshe Sherer used to cut the microphone when he didn't like what particular rabbonim had strayed from the Party Line in saying at the convention.
The Novominsker who is the current de facto chief of the Agudah Politburo, stated at the last Agudah dinner that we do not listen to "protesters and picketers".
It just so happens that askanim who are acting midina shel Torah and on the Tzavaah of R' Avigdor Miller to fight abuse cover ups at the Agudah are the very voices that the Agudah is trying to squelch out.
Regarding the Aguda's stance on the particular 'NY child abuse law' in question: read the law and then figure if this insane law were passed, how many private educational institutions would remain standing? We would be confined to home schooling. Maybe that is what you want. If so, state it.
ReplyDeleteRav Eidensohn is asking the million dollar question. What do we need the Agudah for?
ReplyDeleteI learned in Lakewood. The view of myself and many of my chaverim, who are supposed to be the Agudah's core constituency, is to ask the same question.
The way we see it, the Agudah is serving a purpose of keeping aging hockers occupied. In their 50s & 60s, they are too fatigued to go running around with Hatzolah and the like, so they need an organization like the Agudah where they get to sit around at meetings proposing boych sevoros about the Klal's needs.
The Agudah's fear is the same as proposed by their legal counsel. They could be implicated. If they were clean, there would be nothing to be afraid of.
ReplyDeleteThey are hyping bogus concerns about all or most yeshivos being shut down on account of 60 year old stories that cannot be defended against. In California & Delaware, these things never happened, because like with the proposed NY law, there are too many protections to allow it to come to that.
No yeshiva has anything to fear unless they are behaving very badly, in which case they should be shut down.
This is the Agudah's fault in any case that we have come to this. They conspired with Torah Umesorah to not allow any self-policing which is why we now require govt intervention.
What R' Avrohom Yehoshua Soloveitchik said in chumash shiur about the Agudah convention was actually much more graphic. He said the ikkur is to sit there for a weekend stuffing their faces with food.
ReplyDeleteAguda issues:
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah, G-d forbid, if a loved one were in trouble in Eretz Israel, say mentally ill and the health care system has broken down, where do you turn? To Meretz? As an askun, I have been there and Agudath Israel has been there!
Again, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Do you know how many sexual abuse cases where not covered up? No, you don't, and will never know. The Gur Chassidim for example, a part of the Aguda, has stopped several mazikim and did not have to go to the Goyisha press secular authorities.
Daas Torah, regarding demonstrating against the Gay parades: Demonstrating succefully would bring a Pyrrhic victory, for the issue would end up in our living rooms. Were the Eidis out in force over this issue? I do not remember so, and probably for the same reason.
Any sentient person knows that a speaker at a Aguda function who 'speaks up' and doesn't glad hand is finished. He will never be invited back. Az ma, so what. From the Aguda's inception, Great Rabbonim have had to step aside and act as watchmen, e.g., the Briskers, the Lubavitchers of old, the Gedolim in America that were mentioned in the post; they watched and advised from afar. For examples see the two volume set of the biography of the Brisker Rav that was just translated into English. For the Brisker Rav's view of the Aguda see same.
As I mentioned, regarding the Aguda, the Temporal is meeting the Divine, perfection is impossible. Let this sink in. This is not simple. We all mean well, let us keep open minds. Remember, this is from one who has witnessed the worst. I am no shill.
Following through said:
ReplyDeleteAgain, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Do you know how many sexual abuse cases where not covered up? No, you don't, and will never know. The Gur Chassidim for example, a part of the Aguda, has stopped several mazikim and did not have to go to the Goyisha press secular authorities.
================
I really appreciate getting some straight answers which are not filtered through a patronizing - "you don't know anything so just trust us - we know what is good for you" attitude.
So why is Ger protecting Mondrowitz? I was told that the Aguda was largely responsible for his escaping to Israel where he has been an example of chillul hashem for over two decades. Is this what you meant by handling mazikim and not involving the Goyisha press secular authorities? Rav Sternbuch told me that Mondrowitz should rot in jail.
Daas Torah, do you have concrete evidence that the Aguda is holding up Mondrowitz's extradition? Or, are you making this assumption based on his connection to Gur? This could be motzei shem ra., please read on. 1) The Mondrowitz case is very complicated legally, for it is only the second case to be tried in Israel under the new extradition treaty with America. The first case, the Colmer case, was cut and dry; the sexual abuse charges in America were fresh and he had been an Israeli citizen for only several months. Thus, the delay in extradition may have nothing to do with Gur. 2) I have been told by Rabbonim that the Mondrowitz case, vis a vis mesira, is not open and shut; Mondrowitz was was in a controlled environment and posed no danger to the community, unlike Colmer, who was hefker, and moving from place to place. He belonged to no one and the Rabbanim pulled the trigger; mesira was allowed. In addition, there was an issue of agunas looming. Thus, regarding mosering Mondrowitz, there may be opinions that differ from HaRav Sternbuch, shlita. Thus, if Ger is protecting Mondrowitz, it may be doing so al pi halacha. Sometimes the halacha is not to our taste. Personally, I would like to see the mazik rot in he**.
ReplyDeleteWhat straight answers are you looking for? The details of the krumkeit I witnessed at the Aguda, or the names and dates of the situations of pikuach nefesh where the Aguda stood up and fought. I will not provide this informatin in a pubic forum. I think you want me to fall in line with everyone else and just bash the Aguda. This is a patronizing attitude on your part and is wrong. It is one thing for the children of the Brisker Rav, or other great Rabbonim, to speak up against the Aguda; for that is their job, not ours. I shall take my own hint; I have spoken too much and perhaps out of turn. Hatzlacha Raba.
Following through - do you realize what you are saying? You are publicly acknowledging that the Aguda is run by pragmatic politicians - not the gedolim. You acknowledge that there is a lot of moral compromise for what? For the greater good!?
ReplyDeleteThis is your description. You are also saying - this is the real world and this organization is critical in dealing with Olam HaZeh. The true moral figures are the gedolim who stayed out of the Aguda and are its critics. However those who are not gedolim have no right to criticize it because 1) we don't really understand what is going on 2) we meed to maintain the illusions of Daas Torah and the infallible of the Moetzes for the sake of chareidi unity.
I have major problems with this description. BTW I am not inherently an Aguda basher. My late father in law, Charlie Young z"l served as secretary of the organization before he moved on to RJJ and he was R' Moshe Scherer right hand man as well as working with Mike Tress.
Your "real politic" grates on my ears and it is not the description I heard of the Aguda when Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakov were involved
In sum, I don't hear any concern with morality or Torah. Just power politics which is why the Aguda in Israel is not respected either.
I don't deny that there is a need to be reality oriented - but I have a problem with an organization which you are discribing as akin to Tammany Hall or the Daly Machine of Chicago (that is inherent in your words). Btw they and the Mafia are also good at providing medical and other benefits.
One rav told me that Rav Aaron's greatness lay not in his Torah - there were other great talmidei chachomim. Rather it lay in his mesiras nefesh for Chinuch Atzmoi despite that it was so corrupt - because that was the only way that Torah would be established in Israel. I don't think this was meant as a praise of Chinuch Atzmoi. Likewise if you are saying that there are parts of our homes which are not places of kavod - but they are still needed - I would agree with you.
Our difference is that I think that just as gedolim need to pressure these politicians to do what is right - the masses do also.
The Aguda at present is not inherently a makom Torah and morality. It is simply a tool contained in an illusion.
My comments italicized, interspersed.
ReplyDeleteFollowing through - do you realize what you are saying? You are publicly acknowledging that the Aguda is run by pragmatic politicians The Aguda has been quite upfront here, (always has) with the elevation of a lawyer, Rabbi Zweibel as the Executive Vice President. - not the gedolim. Askunim run the Aguda, taking advice from the Gedolim, did you think adaraba? (BTW, an askun must know when not to ask) You acknowledge that there is a lot of moral compromise for what? For the greater good!? BTW, are you at a madraiga to understand fully the concept of ‘moral compromise’ in klal issues? Are you perched at the lofty level to grasp the ‘greater good’ of klal Israel? In a previous post you asked me to provide “a comprehensive defense of the Agudah…” I ask you now to provide us with a comprehensive list of Aguda’s ‘moral compromises’, along with their many kiddushei Hashem. We take many things for granted in our soft, easy frum life; what ungratefulness to turn and bite the hand that helped establish this unprecedented level of comfort. What about a bare minimum of hakaoras hatov?
"Daas Torah, do you have concrete evidence that the Aguda is holding up Mondrowitz's extradition? Or, are you making this assumption based on his connection to Gur? This could be motzei shem ra"
ReplyDeleteFeivel Mendlowitz says he has information that Agudah is working with Ger to stop the extradition. Their motivation is so that Agudah officials circa 1980s don't get exposed at trial for facilitating Mondrowitz's escape. Mondrowitz was working for Ohel even though he did not have real semicha or a psych degree as he claimed. Agudah figures knew the NYPD was closing in to arrest him and tipped him off to escape to Israel. The Justice and State Depts wanted badly to extradite him for a long time but were stonewalled by DA Charles Hynes who has money funneled to his election campaigns by Iggud Harabbonim and other groups. Hynes only relented when Feivel Mendlowitz started a campaign to flood him with 1000s of protest calls that he would not be reeelected if he refused to extradite.
"The Mondrowitz case is very complicated legally, for it is only the second case to be tried in Israel under the new extradition treaty with America."
Who cares how many cases? The law is the law. Very complicated? It is very simple except for Ger trying every manouever to hold him back in Israel.
"The first case, the Colmer case, was cut and dry"
In other words, Colmer was a BT who has no political and family connections. So virtually no one fought on his behalf. (Yet there is still one delusional Agudah official who after failing to cover up for him, tried to raise the $1 million bail to keep him out of jail before trial)
"I have been told by Rabbonim that the Mondrowitz case, vis a vis mesira, is not open and shut; Mondrowitz was was in a controlled environment and posed no danger to the community. Thus, if Ger is protecting Mondrowitz, it may be doing so al pi halacha. Sometimes the halacha is not to our taste."
Ain aputrufus learayos. Israeli police found he was downloading child porn on his computer. No one was chaperoning him. Ger is protecting a predator of the worst kind. Starting in Boro Park where Mondrowitz raped boys in the basement of Gerrer yeshiva and elsewhere, whoever told Gerrer rabbonim about it were kicked out of the yeshiva to silence them. Now Ger has no smach in halacha to continue protecting him. Incredible how you are so naive or boneheaded to believe their propaganda.
Following Through said...
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah, do you have concrete evidence that the Aguda is holding up Mondrowitz's extradition?
===================
It is what is called common knowledge which I have heard from a number of frum sources. Here is an example from the JPOST
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1192380626856&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
However, a prominent member of the Ger community in Jerusalem defended Mondrowitz.
"There are people who are trying to disparage Mondrowitz's name," said the source.
"Mondrowitz is a very intelligent, talented man and so are all of his children. His father is highly respected in the community. I can't believe these stories are true.
Following Through to the Post of "The Confusion" and "Daas Torah"
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah, my reply to "The Confusion" applies to your post as well, however, to say that the Aguda's protecting Mondrowitz is 'common knowledge' and backing it up with some verbage taken from the Jerusalem Post.....well, if this is part of what constitutes a body of 'common knowledge', it may be time to head out to the wildnerness. My post may enlighten you.
My comments to "The Confusion" are bolded and interspersed.
“Feivel Mendlowitz says he has information that Agudah is working with Ger to stop the extradition. Their motivation is …..” Mendlowitz has a motivation why he thinks Aguda may be working to stop the extradition. This is all you are saying. No one to my knowledge has any evidence. Regarding manipulating the Israeli Supreme Court in order to stop the extradition: the idea of the Aguda/Gur ‘fixing’ the Bagatz is laughable. This is not how the Israeli Supreme Court functions. You hatred for the Aguda has led you to classical Anti-Semitic thinking; ridiculing and humiliating the source of your hatred but at the same time ascribing to it superhuman qualities. Manipulating the Bagatz would be ascribing to the Aguda/Gur superhuman qualities! Further, since you believe the Aguda/Gur is so powerful and connected, they could certainly handle the exposure over Mondrowitz’s extradition. Ohel was involved with Colmer, his excape to Israel was probably facilitated and the heat was not so great. If the Aguda has the power to fix the Bagatz they certainly can deal with a bissel heat in NY. Even if we go with your your havamina; do you really think that the Aguda/Gur would pull in so many chips, extend so many assets for this piece of s***?
"The Mondrowitz case is very complicated legally, for it is only the second case to be tried in Israel under the new extradition treaty with America."
Who cares how many cases? The law is the law. Very complicated? It is very simple except for Ger trying every manouever to hold him back in Israel.
Extradition law is very complicated, especially the application of a new treaty. Even the Colmer extradition was complicated. You wrote "The law is the law." You know better than this. Why do we have so many lawyers?
Israeli police found he was downloading child porn on his computer. No one was chaperoning him. The porn was in his chader chaderim. How do you know what level of shemiras he was under? Ger is protecting a predator of the worst kind. Starting in Boro Park where Mondrowitz raped boys in the basement of Gerrer yeshiva and elsewhere, whoever told Gerrer rabbonim about it were kicked out of the yeshiva to silence them. What does this have to do with the current situation regarding mesira? Sounds like you want revenge. Again, your proof that Gur is protecting Mondrowitz is based on theory, not evidence. We have no evidence whatsoever that Mondrowitz, in Israel, ever molested. He was not served with extradition for watching videos; perhaps the videos were a therapy and prevented this warped, sorry excuse for a human being from actualizing his taiva and destroying others.
Ger has no smach in halacha to continue protecting him. How do you know? Are you a posek with real information, not just theories? This is D'nei Nefoshes we are dealing with. Incredible how you are so naive or boneheaded to believe their propaganda. BTW, I am not an Agudist. My derech is different. Thus, I am the last to believe any propaganda. Besides, I do not read their literature, except the recipes in the Hamodia,(I like to cook).
The Jerusalem Post has only a small excerpt of what is common knowledge of Ger protecting Mondrowitz. I and others have reports from many people including dissidents inside Ger who are angry about it. These reports are not only from govt sources which are harder to verify but from statements made by Gerrer rabbonim.
ReplyDeleteIsrael is like a banana republic compared to the US and is very politically corrupt. You are either naive or lying if you think Israeli govt officials cannot be gotten to.
The Agudah has fought every American law that has potential to expose them for past misdeeds. Why shouldn't they want to stop the extradition of a man they helped escape which would surely come up in any trial? You ignored this point in your "rebuttal".
So the porn was "only" bechadrei chadarim? Don't you know the yesod the Torah tells us that what the eyes see the heart desires and that hirhurim bring to mayseh? And Mondrowitz was unemployed. Ever heard of batolo mayvee lidei znus? Surely you must know these elementary facts from yeshiva. Besides that your claim of Mondrowitz being monitored is a farce as he was seen for years coming & going freely. He was also said to be carrying a weapon after some of his victims confronted him.
Finally, your preposterous claims are a slap in the face to Rav Sternbuch & the Badatz who declared al pi Hatorah that Mondrowitz is a rodef who should be jailed. Perhaps you should argue it out with them. You are basically pulling a Tropper when it comes to child abusers.
Following Through said...
ReplyDeleteFollowing Through to the Post of "The Confusion" and "Daas Torah"
Daas Torah, my reply to "The Confusion" applies to your post as well, however, to say that the Aguda's protecting Mondrowitz is 'common knowledge' and backing it up with some verbage taken from the Jerusalem Post.....well, if this is part of what constitutes a body of 'common knowledge', it may be time to head out to the wildnerness. My post may enlighten you.
==============
I think you are incredibly naive. Last night I had a long talk with a Gerrer Rosh Kollel who was explaining to me the high degree of discipline in Ger and how the Gerrer Rebbe's pronouncements control many areas of daily life . It is ludicrous to think that Mondrowitz is still in Israel without the knowledge or awareness and active defense of the Gerrer Rebbe.
To Daas Torah and Confusion:
ReplyDeleteMondrowitz was in Israel for some 27 years, not due to Gur protection, but to an archaic Extradition Treaty. The treaty was changed two years ago and that is why the US served the Israeli government with an extradition request. Thus, with all their power and connections, how did the Aguda/Gur, so committed to protecting Mondrowitz, mess up so completely and allow for his extradition in the first place? BTW, I know the activists behind the Mondrowitz extradition; average people with little resources.
If the Eides has issued such a psak, why are they not fighting? They are experts in fighting the Banana Republic and the Aguda, and have fought over issues of much less import. Keep in mind, what HaRav Sternbuch, shlita wishes, as I wish, mentioned in conversation is one thing, a psak halacha from the Eides is another.
To "Confusion":
ReplyDeleteRemember, Zionism is a replacement theology and certain aspects will always remain ‘frum’. The Bagatz is kadosh, l’havdil, unlike say the Interior Ministry. The Israeli Supreme Court is their Sanhedrin, nebuch, and to imagine the very ones they replaced i.e. the shomrei shabbos, ‘fixing’ their Kodesh Hakodashim …This is fantasy. Areas of the Israeli government are corrupt, but not here, boychik.
Oh please. Charlie Hynes refused to extradite Mondrowitz even after the treaty was changed. Attorney Lesher from Passaic is in possession of internal documents from Justice and Foggy Bottom (State Dept) that were attempting extradition but were stonewalled by the Brooklyn DA who has loads of money steered to him by a Boro Park askan who does the bidding of various Chassidishe groups. The askan has been telling people he knows that it's not his job to determine if sex offenders are guilty, that it's only his job to keep them out of jail. Hynes comes once a year to the askan's home where checks are passed to him from interested parties.
ReplyDeleteGer also covered up the sex abuse from yeshiva mashgiach Leizerowitz who also took off to Israel after the NY Daily News started asking questions.
Again, the fundamental question is sidestepped. Was Mondrowitz's extradition halachically sanctioned? Somehow, mesira is no longer an issue.
ReplyDeleteThe Badatz sanctioned it al pi halacha. How many times must it be stated? The teshuvos of gedolei haposkim also allow for it.
ReplyDeleteI am convinced you are a stooge for other interests as opposed to someone interested in arriving at the truth.
It finally hit me about what in is going on in these posts. You fellows have read my posts and understand that I have no sympathy for this creature, Monsterwitz. However, please be aware that I mosered on a frum individual, who was subsequently arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned. Through this shimush, I became sensitized as to how adin and complicated the halachas are regarding mesira, and how counter-intuitive they may indeed be. Because of this experience, I feel their is void of awareness in the tzibur in general, and how mesira may become, G-d forbid, a 'dropped halacha' like the way shatnus was after the War. Chas v'shalom, I do want to sound gaivadik; it is just that I am coming from a place of painful experience. In this issue, we must learn to put our emotions aside.
ReplyDeleteFollowing Through said...
ReplyDeleteIt finally hit me about what in is going on in these posts. You fellows have read my posts and understand that I have no sympathy for this creature, Monsterwitz. However, please be aware that I mosered on a frum individual, who was subsequently arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned. Through this shimush, I became sensitized as to how adin and complicated the halachas are regarding mesira, and how counter-intuitive they may indeed be.
============
You raise an important issue - but I disagree with you. I haven't found a single place where it says that even though it is permitted to inform please be careful to minimize of the collateral damage.
It does say of a rodef that one should use the minimum force necessary to stop him. This is not necessarily a case of rodef.
Tzitz Eliezar(19:52) poskens that if abuse is a danger to the child it is permitted to call the police - even though he will be taken away and given to non-Jews.
Starting with BM 83a where the thieves that R' Eliezar caught were executed. It doesn't say that since the punishment was not the Torah punishment it isn't permitted
Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u’Mazik 8:11): …. Similarly all those who distress the community and harm it – it is permitted to hand them over to the nonJewish government to be beaten, imprisoned and punished. However if the person is only disturbing an individual and not the community – it is prohibited to hand him over. It is also prohibited to cause the loss of the property of the moser – even though it permitted to cause the death of the moser himself. That is because his property belongs to his heirs.
Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 388:12): Whoever is a informant (moser) regarding the community and harrasses it – it is permitted to hand over that individual to the nonJewish government to be beaten, imprisoned or to be fined. However if this individual only harrasses and individual it is prohibited to hand him over to the secular government.
To Confused: at the time of his extradition, there was no Badatz sanctioned mesira. If there was, and if the 'teshuvos of gedolei haposkim also allow(ed) for it', a lot of ink would not have been spilled in vain and a lot of misery would have been averted. Some of that ink and misery, mine. These psakim would have short-circuited all that grief. But they did not exist, verbally or in writing, just in your dreams.
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah:
ReplyDeleteWhat if the 'Rodef' no longer poses a current danger to the community? How is ‘current danger’ defined? How do we define today's secular government', in light of the SA. On and on... onlyposkei hador can deal with these issues, for the fifth section of Shulchan Aruch comes into play. It frightens me that you think this is stam and you begin citing m’koros.
follow Through said...
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah:
What if the 'Rodef' no longer poses a current danger to the community? How is ‘current danger’ defined? How do we define today's secular government', in light of the SA. On and on... onlyposkei hador can deal with these issues, for the fifth section of Shulchan Aruch comes into play. It frightens me that you think this is stam and you begin citing m’koros.
============
A child molester has a chazaka that he is a danger. I am surpised at your comment because it shows that you really are not familiar with the literature.
I asked for a single source to back up your statement. Claiming the fith chelek of the Shulchan Aruch is a cop out.
There is a solid literature on this matter and it doesn't say what you are saying.
Daas Torah:
ReplyDeleteYou stated that "A child molester has a chazaka that he is a danger". A danger enough to moser?, even if he is contained and no longer deemed a danger to the community? I have shimush here, from huge Talmidei Chachamim, poskim, that this is not so. You see, the Jew I mosered was a child molsester. You are quick to cite, so start citing.
Follow Through said...
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah:
You stated that "A child molester has a chazaka that he is a danger". A danger enough to moser?, even if he is contained and no longer deemed a danger to the community? I have shimush here, from huge Talmidei Chachamim, poskim, that this is not so. You see, the Jew I mosered was a child molsester. You are quick to cite, so start citing.
=========
Did anybody ever tell you that you are rude! You feel guilty for what you did and perhaps some rabbis have criticized you. That isn't proof that you did anything wrong.
You are the one who has been making claims without citing a single source. I just cited a number of sources to which you have not addressed yourself.
Anyway to answer your question. Why don't you call Rav Sternbuch and describe what happened and ask him if what you did was wrong. He has told me that a child abuser is likely to repeat - which is the same understanding that psychologist have.
Furthermore what do you mean contained. He promised to behave himself? Doesn't mean anything. He has a 24 hour guard - perhaps. He has been told he will be seriously beaten if he repeats his crime - sometimes this works but not always. Or does it simply mean he has agreed to stay away from children - doesn't mean much.
Please show me any source which says I need to take a chance with my kids when someone claims that the molester has been contained?
If he is paralyzed or castrated perhaps you are right - but I assume that is not the case. Please cite a single source.
It sounds like he may have been told incorrect information by corrupt rabbonim in on the cover ups. But his biggest problem is his post dramatic guilt disorder.
ReplyDeleteTo further explain, the recidivism rate of molesters is almost 100%. America also does not have the same din of the malchus of old as per R' Shlomo Zalman and other gedolim.
And, the letter from the Badatz was issued before Hynes was forced to extradite by Mendlowitz's pressure.
But don't hold your breath. Even when Mondrowitz is brought back, Hynes will probably try to let him off easy like he did with Kolko, Brenner and others. Hynes lied to the public that Kolko's victims refused to testify and gave him only probation for "child endangerment". Hynes knows that chassidim vote in blocks and does not want to anger the Gerrer and others.
Daas Torah and Confusion:
ReplyDeleteConfusion: Ask Michael Lesher for a copy of such a letter from Badatz. If it exists, he will be happy to produce it. Your friend Mendlowitz is not even a foot note in the saga.
Daas Torah: Sorry, I really did not mean to be rude. I hate to wake you up, but many molesters have been 'contained'. Through my shimush, I learned that our Rabbanim are aware that containment has become more difficult as our community expands and modernity seeps into our velt. Yes, certainly a molester is likely to repeat, this is pshat, and is just one of the many issues involved in issuing such a psak halacha, a shmeck of what goes into the pot. One Rav mentioned that if there was psak halacha to moser the Monster, a major reason would be deterence. We do not have a Sanhedrin, nor a King, and we can't kill the bast***s; thus, mosering may be the best way to achieve deterrence. From what I understand, this was part of what informed the Colmer decision. Some say containment was possible there, I don’t know.
BTW, I have no guilt. How could I, for I am a Shulchan Aruch Jew, who was given a clear psak by gedolei hador. I slept like a baby.
Following Through said...
ReplyDeleteHowever, please be aware that I mosered on a frum individual, who was subsequently arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned. Through this shimush, I became sensitized as to how adin and complicated the halachas are regarding mesira, and how counter-intuitive they may indeed be. Because of this experience, I feel their is void of awareness in the tzibur in general, and how mesira may become, G-d forbid, a 'dropped halacha' like the way shatnus was after the War. Chas v'shalom, I do want to sound gaivadik; it is just that I am coming from a place of painful experience. In this issue, we must learn to put our emotions aside.
however on another occasion
Following Through said...
BTW, I have no guilt. How could I, for I am a Shulchan Aruch Jew, who was given a clear psak by gedolei hador. I slept like a baby.
===============
Are there two of you? One has no guilt just got his psak and the other one had a painful experience in being moser?
So far you haven' shared your shimush, explained what confinement means, offered a single citation, have not quoted a single sevora from your interaction with gedolim - so what are you contributing to the discussion?
You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch or that you observe what other's tell you is the halacha?
B"H I am Sehpardi.
ReplyDeleteR' Ovadia states very clearly in Yahave Da'at 4:60 there is a Chovah to moser anyone who has the possibilyt of being a nezek the to tzibor. He details everything from a person with an infectious illness, to one who disobeys traffic laws, to a common thief, and states very clearly that if a person has the potential to be nezek one has a Chiyuv to report him immediately to the proper secular authorities.
That is a clear psak halacha with a clear and documented source. What is your supposed source? Which supposed posek or Gadol haDor said it?
only poskei hador can deal with these issues, for the fifth section of Shulchan Aruch comes into play
The supposed "fifth section of the Shulchan Aruch" is seichel. While I will admit that very often it seems to be in very short supply even amongst some supposed gedolim it is not the sole jurisdiction of Poskei HaDor.
To Mekubel and Daas Torah:
ReplyDeleteMekubel: R'Ovadia, shlita's psak covers nezek, not dinei nefashos. Thus, this has no connection to mosering a child molester. What source are you asking from me? I have been hounding you fellows for a pshak halacha that allowed the Monster to be mosered
To Daas Torah: You posted, "Are there two of you? One has no guilt just got his psak and the other one had a painful experience in being moser?
Have you not the breath of experience and open enough mind to realize that an individual may have a broad range of emotions in a complicated situation? Thus, I had no guilt and slept like a baby the night the pedophile was arrested, for I did my duty as halacha prescribed. The painful part was this man has devoted parents, wife and children. The childrens' pain is particularly painful. He indeed reached out for psychological help, several times. To see a Jewish family destroyed, and not to feel pained, one would have to be an emotional neuter. You will not like this Daas Torah, but the molester's family situation is also thrown into the soup, so to speak, and does factor into the decision to moser. {This is part of the seforas I watched being discussed(*see below)} As I mentioned previously, I was told that Colmer's wife faced possible agunas, and this was one of factors that led to his being mosered. I realize I may have contradicted myself earlier regarding Colmer. In one post, I mentioned he was hefker and moving from place to place and in another post, I said that I heard he could have been contained. I do not hold an opinion here. I just threw this in for food for thought to show the extent to which the mesius is taken into account as the posken weigh the many factors.
Daas Torah, I hope you consider these seforas, which I gleaned by working with the Rabbanim. Here are several others regarding containment. Rabbanim are looking into GPS devices and other state of the art protection devices. Containment in small tsiburs with knowledge and permission of communities has been discussed in my presence. Extensive dealings with psychiatric specialists discussing drug therapies that would rend the molester harmless have also been vetted. We must work to strengthen our community infrastructure to see that mesira is seldom used and when used, is used al pi halacha. We are not a bunch of Italian undertakers with a red roses pinned to our lapels.
Daas Torah posted "You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch or that you observe what other's tell you is the halacha?"
I am a BT who is far from having mastered the Shulchan Aruch. I can chap pshat from the Mishnah Brura, OK, not great. I study the Kitzer, attend shiurim, and ask questions feely to several poskim and friends more learned than I. At the end I always seek the advice of our family posik. My favorite learning is starting with the Tur, going to the Gemoras, hitting the Rambam and then working our way back to the commentaries. This is a touch of Gan Eden. My Loshen Kodesh skills are poor, thus I cannot attempt this sort of learning alone. Finding a skilled and patient chavrusa is difficult. The main thrust of my learning is Gemora, not to halacha l’misa. Six months ago, I began attending a gemora shiur using a unique marking system, see here, http://www.gemaramarkings.com/faq.htm this has been a great tool, I am mastering the use of it and am greatly indebted to these fine people who developed this learning aide. Please look at the site. You may know others who may benefit from it.
Following Through said...
ReplyDeleteTo Mekubel and Daas Torah:
Mekubel: R'Ovadia, shlita's psak covers nezek, not dinei nefashos. Thus, this has no connection to mosering a child molester. What source are you asking from me? I have been hounding you fellows for a pshak halacha that allowed the Monster to be mosered
==================
From your last post it is clear that You have no credibility as someone who can competently discuss the halachic sources and issues in this matter. You apparently do not understand nor are you familiar with the sources that I cited nor the many references which I have posted on this blog.
Are you familiar with the discussion in the Nishmas Avarahm or the series of teshuvos from gedolim found in Yeshurun concerning mesira for child molesters? Have you gone through Simon 388 in Choshen Mishpat or Simon 2 in Choshen Mishpat? Do you know the Chasam Sofer on Gittin 7a and the use of this by the Minchas Yitzchok? Have you gone over the basic teshuva of R' Ovadiya Yosef concerning mesira in Yechave Daas 4:60? Have you seen R' Broyde's article on mesira?
To Daas Torah:
ReplyDeleteRabbi you are pulling rank on me. I indicated clearly that I am not a Talmid Chacham; hence, I am a non-literate in the intricacies of the sources regarding mazikim, such as pedophiles, and the laws of mesira. However, you asked me for 'sefaros' that I witnessed during the course of my activism. These details illuminate the abovementioned halachic sources you cite (and others, certainly), for they show the halacha process being activated in a real case. You obviously did like the seforas. Perhaps it is difficult to accept that not all is cut and dry when applied to the real world. I did not like it either.
If you don't like the message, don't shoot the messenger
To Daas Torah:
ReplyDeleteRabbi you are pulling rank on me. I indicated clearly that I am not a Talmid Chacham; hence, I am a non-literate in the intricacies of the sources regarding mazikim, such as pedophiles, and the laws of mesira. However, you asked me for 'sefaros' that I witnessed during the course of my activism. These details illuminate the abovementioned halachic sources you cite (and others, certainly), for they show the halacha process being activated in a real case. You obviously did like the seforas. Perhaps it is difficult to accept that not all is cut and dry when applied to the real world. I did not like it either.
If you don't like the message, don't shoot the messenger
============
I am not pulling rank and but you mistakenly have assumed that you are qualified to be the messenger of the gedolim to explain what and why they did what they did.
It seems clear at this point that what you thought you are doing and what we thought you are doing are not accurate.
The gedolim that you spoke with didn't appoint you to explain what they did and what they told you and why they told you - you are not their messenger.
Perhaps you should be considered an observer? However you keep providing halachic explanations for what happened - despite the clear fact that you are not familiar with the halacha in this area.
Consequently when you started talking about the impact on the perpetrator's family as a consideration in mesira - it simply doesn't compute. That is why I said tell me a single source that collateral damage to others is a consideration in the halacha of mesira.
In other words the halachic vocabulary you claimed that they were using with you is not commensurate with the halachic literature. You are not in a position to explain the discrepancies and I don't know why you tried.
In addition you keep making the condescending and innaccurate judgment that I just don't realize the complexity of these halachos in the real world.
In sum, you seem to be a nice sensitive guy but you have bitten off way more than you can chew.
To Daas Torah:
ReplyDeleteRabbi, I re-read all my comments on this thread and realize that you not only pulled rank, but you have treated me with a glaring lack of respect. You set me up and then discredited my posts. You asked, "You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch...? You probably sensed that I am a BT (you fellows can tell, easily) and my answer clearly indicated that I am not a Talmid Chacham. After setting me up, you schected, by stating, "...it is clear that "You have no credibility as someone who can competently discuss the halachic sources and issues in this matter." However, as the moderator, you were well aware that I never discussed any halachic source brought down in these discussions, nor expressed an opinion regarding these sources. (In one instance, I clarified pshat in R' Eliashuv's psak, z'oo) As requested, I shared seforas regarding the cases I witnessed and shared my opinions regarding bloging issues, “issues of the day”.
I come to your blog only to download Rav Sternbuch's divrei Torah in English. I never posted before and did so because I saw the link to the NPR piece and thought your blog was not the place for such a link. I will check to see if you reply to these last two postings. Rabbi, I have a yetzer hara and I carefully limit my Internet use. Because of this incident, your site could become problematic for me and thus, in several day time, I will delete it from my 'favorites', and will not be accessing the site again, bli nedir. It would be a great kindness if you could forward the English divrei Torah of Rav Sternbuch to me at choice613@gmail.com
I wish you well.
DAas torah:
ReplyDeleteI also was quite appalled at the tone you used in your 1:07 pm post.
I can understand that your tone is extremely hurtful for Following Through and that he feels you lack respect and "shechted" him.
...and this although, contentwise, I think that no "Messira" question whatsoever should ever keep us from bringing whatever criminal to justice.
ReplyDeleteA story I heard from the lips of R' Yaakov Hillel Shlit"a on why he no longer has a "B"T Yeshiva". Years after he founded his Yeshiva that had levels from learning the depths of Kabbalah b'iyun to a full B"T program, he finally had a chance to visit with his Rav HaRishon, the Rosh Yeshiva of Gateshead. He sat and spoke with Rav and finally was telling him about the Yeshiva that he, Rav Hillel, had founded. He said, "We even have a B"T Yeshiva". His own Rav yelled at him, "Don't call it that, don't ever call it that. Your job is to make them as serious a Ben Torah as a person born religious, what is more you transgress halacha by reminding them of their past deeds." R' Hillel says that after that encounter he integrated the "B"T Yeshiva into the regular Yeshiva as just a few more levels of learning, so that the students would always know that their were no limits.
ReplyDeleteDon't limit yourself to a label. Don't assume that your Torah knowledge is inferior because of your background. B"H for the age in which we live, with all of its benefits. A person today can learn at any level in almost any language. The choice is simply yours. My advice, go to: http://www.shemayisrael.com/smicha/
pick a program and go through it. They have a proven track record of taking people with no background and turning out Talmidei Chochomim in the end.
You must understand that no one set you up or pulled rank. With the language you used and forcefulness of your arguments, you presented yourself as someone with a vast Torah background and access to major Gedolim.
Rabbi, I re-read all my comments on this thread and realize that you not only pulled rank, but you have treated me with a glaring lack of respect. You set me up and then discredited my posts. You asked, "You have also said you are a Shulchan Aruch Jew - does that mean that you know Shulchan Aruch...? You probably sensed that I am a BT
ReplyDelete=================
You obviously come from a different culture with different rules of enagement and interaction.
In the world of Torah, discussion of Torah ideas are described as the battle of Torah and those who engage in it are called warriors.
When you make pronouncements regarding child abuse and mesira - and I know that you are wrong then it is important to convey the seriousness of the misinformation that you are communicating.
I didn't set you up - you are imputing malicious intent to my words - but I did attempt to ascertain your competence to make pronouncements on issues that are very critical for understanding child abuse. This is not simply a debating club.
If you had been less combative and self-assured in your pronouncement then I would have responded differently to your errors. If you had raised question instead of criticizing my understanding than I would have responded with an attempt to explain. But you asserted that you already knew the proper understanding - but in fact you don't
You can't make critical assertion that I am ignorant of how halacha works in the real world and expect me to respond, "oh really, I didn't realize - thanks for pointing it out."
People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues and it would be irresponsible of me to allow ideas I consider wrong to get a free pass.
Regarding Rav Sternbuch - your request to be emailed his articles so that you don't need to access my blog is not a realistic use of my time. Perhaps you can contract Rabbi Travis and ask him to add you to his email list.
However, I would suggest you at least occasionally log on because I think you need to learn the language and style of discussion in the Torah world. You obviously have things to contribute to the rest of us. But you do need to know how to do it.
"This is not simply a debating club."
ReplyDeleteOf course it is. Since you never know who is behind the comment you receive, you cannot pretend to have a discussion between outstanding sages on this medium in this form.
Sorry, Daas Torah.
If you chose a medium where Ploni Almoni can chime in, and anonymously to boot, you cannot pretend that the outcome is reliable in any form.
So I think you should have a bit more respect for the Ploni who comments on your page and set wrongs right in a different tone.
This said: I read many previous comments and I am not that convinced that you yourself are an outstanding torah scholar.
"People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues"
ReplyDeleteNo, not really.
This does not mean that your blog has no worth. You bring up interesting themes sometimes interesting discussions take place, so it is a nice place to spend some time if you do not have anything else to do.
However, it is self-evident that you cannot take everything that is said on an anonymous internet-forum for face value. There are just too many sources of error, beginning with the identification of the posters...
I sometimes post on an anonymous language forum.
ReplyDeleteYou can get quite good answers. but there is always the risk that
1) someone tries to mislead you on purpose
2) someone gives you a wrong answer because he does not know better
3) someone just makes a error when writing an answer.
So before I take anything from the forum, I double-check with other sources.
I would say: the same applies here.
1) I never mentioned the "impact on the perpetrator's family as a consideration in mesira." I just mentioned how it affected me emotionally.
ReplyDelete2) What sort of halachic explanations did I offer? I cannot even properly give over an halachic explanation! I just reported the seforas that I witnessed. What halachic vocabulary did I use?, for I have no real vocabulary; I just gave over in layman's terms the things I witnessed.
3) I am not a messenger of the Gedolim, nor did I claim to be. However, it was apparant that I was dealing with poskim of note and that poskei hador delivered the final hammer blow in the particular case where I mosered the molester.
4) Rabbi, I do not believe you have been involved in such a case. Hence, with all due koved, you just may not be aware of how complex a case like this may be. Your comments lead me to this conclusion. That you can quote from here and there in the SA and with a wave of the hand, sof misa.
BTW, I feel you are a very fine man who is of the anshei tsibor, truly, mamash. You mentioned that your father-in-law served in the Aguda, in let us say, better times. May you be matzliach in your work.
To Daas Torah:
ReplyDeleteYou sidestepped all over again and went ad hominem. Your attacking me was really an assault on the great Talmudei Chachamim I worked with. In these posts, I truthfully conveyed a bit of what I witnessed in laymans terms. You shot the messenger.
You are truly trying to accomplish with this site, but don't get carried away. A site that promulgates a true understanding of Torah issues, would not have posted the NPR link without explanation. Through my prodding, you made the proper diuk in the following post in this thread, "Maybe we don't disagree after all. I did not cite the NRP because I though their understanding was great. I did post it to show that while the claims that we should not talk about these issues because it is a chillul hashem is true - but it is even a greater chillul hashem that out motivation to do something comes about because we learn from the goyish media that we are covering up and sacrificing children to protect the system". However, this was not explicit in the original post on your site.
You wrote, “People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues”. Wake up, for in reality, this blog is maybe a half step up from the UOJ and is a zillion miles from a Beis Medrash. Stop fooling yourself.
If you could take a moment ans send me R' Travis's email address, it would be greatly appreciate. Again, choice613@gmail.com.
All The Best
4) Rabbi, I do not believe you have been involved in such a case. Hence, with all due koved, you just may not be aware of how complex a case like this may be. Your comments lead me to this conclusion. That you can quote from here and there in the SA and with a wave of the hand, sof misa.
ReplyDeleteI cannot speak for D"T, but I have been and I currently am dealing with such issues. I consult with major rabbanim about the ramifications as well as what is halachically permissible.
that poskei hador delivered the final hammer blow in the particular case where I mosered the molester.
Was this R' Eliashiv or R' Yosef? If we go a little further back we can include R' Shach and R' Feinstein, also S.Z. Auerbach, however aside from those individuals there has not been a Rabbi honored with such a title.
What halachic vocabulary did I use?
Trust me that I have shimush in this issue.
Shimush generally means that you have not only adequately learned all of the relevant halachot, but that you also have learned from a true Talmid Chochom or posek how to apply them.
Wake up, for in reality, this blog is maybe a half step up from the UOJ and is a zillion miles from a Beis Medrash. Stop fooling yourself.
This statement is totally inappropriate. Many blogs that deal with these issues are cesspools of lashon hara, without a shred of halachic support, discussion or proof for their claims. Whereas here you will find that, the lashon hara is kept at a minimum while maintaining conversation. The halichic issues are fully sourced, cited and discussed. That is a mile of difference.
Following Through wrote
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “People come to this blog to get reliable understanding of Torah issues”. Wake up, for in reality, this blog is maybe a half step up from the UOJ and is a zillion miles from a Beis Medrash. Stop fooling yourself.
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If you can't see the difference then you really have problems. But in your own estimation why are you debasing yourself - don't you have more important things to do with your time?
f you could take a moment ans send me R' Travis's email address, it would be greatly appreciate. Again, choice613@gmail.com.
ReplyDelete==============
Sorry but I don't have it.
observed it said:
ReplyDeleteThis does not mean that your blog has no worth. You bring up interesting themes sometimes interesting discussions take place, so it is a nice place to spend some time if you do not have anything else to do.
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This is really sad. You really have nothing else to do? It is also sad that you view this blog as basically bubble gum for the mind - and yet still log on.
please make a serious effort to find something to do that you feel has value.
"This is really sad. You really have nothing else to do? It is also sad that you view this blog as basically bubble gum for the mind - and yet still log on."
ReplyDeleteWhy? Internet, blogs, fora are in general "bubble gums for the mind", as you said quite accurately.
Why should this blog be an exception?
What we have here are two drey kops wasting everyone's time.
ReplyDeleteOne is someone who has no background in halacha and thinks he can speak chutzpadik to the talmid chochom running the forum because he was privy to a discussion or two with some rabbonim, that in his own mind makes him a bar plugta.
Then we have a malicious troublemaker called "observed" sensing an opportunity who jumps into the fray to beat up on Rav Eidensohn because he has a bone to pick, probably because he is a troll for Tropper.
If they keep arguing the same non-points, I would advise that their IPs be blocked from allowing them to post.