Michael Freund, Chairman, Shavei Israel responds to "RaP's criticism of proselytizing in Poland":
I would like to respond to the spurious criticism and outright lashon hara contained in the March 19 post entitled, "RaP's criticism of proselytizing in Poland".
I find it simply incomprehensible that my organization, Shavei Israel, is being labeled as "missionary" and criticized for helping people in Poland to return to their Jewish roots. Had the person who posted this tirade bothered to read the article in Mishpacha magazine in question, they would have seen quite clearly that I am quoted as saying the following: "For those interested in halachic conversion, we send them to the proper rabbinic authorities. For those who just want to learn more, we try to provide them with positive Jewish experiences.” Shavei Israel leaves the halachic aspect of each case to Israel’s Chief rabbinate. “Each case has its own set of evidence, its own level of proof or reliability,” Freund explains. “Is the Jewish line from the mother or the father? What kind of proof is there? These are things for a beis din to decide.”
There it is - in black and white - we leave these matters for a beis din to decide, because as Torah-observant Jews our fidelity is to Halacha and nothing else. We simply refer the people in question to rabbonim, and it is up to them to make the determination. Since when is referring people to a beis din considered "missionary" activity? Since when is respecting Torah law and following it cause for being the target of lashon hara?
Michael Freund
Chairman, Shavei Israel
Michael Freund says "For those interested in halachic conversion, we send them to the proper rabbinic authorities. For those who just want to learn more, we try to provide them with positive Jewish experiences.” Shavei Israel leaves the halachic aspect of each case to Israel’s Chief rabbinate. “Each case has its own set of evidence, its own level of proof or reliability,” Freund explains. “Is the Jewish line from the mother or the father? What kind of proof is there? These are things for a beis din to decide.”
ReplyDeleteThis is a bit disingenuous. If Shavei Israel is not proselytizing, then how do people even become interested in Halachic conversion?
Marketing Jewish revival based on the possibility of some sort of Jewish blood, to both Jews and gentiles, most definitely IS "missionary activity." The fact that those attracted are later referred to a Beis Din does not take away from the fact that were it not for Shavei Israel they never would have had the thought that there is some Jewishness in them and that conversion is therefore a return to their Jewish roots.
Although we Jews understand that Jewishness is only from the mother, in a partilineal society such as Polish Christendom, your identity is from your father. So, all of these gentile children of Jewish Polish men will consider themselves Jewish thanks to Mr. Freund's outreach and marketing, and will see conversion as the formal certification of this identity.
Causing gentiles to want to become Jewish as the result of outbound communication from the Jew to the gentile is proselytizing by definition.
Sorry Mr. Freund, you're a missionary whether you realize it or not.
Michael Freund of Shavei Israel finally responds to criticism of his work on this blog even though he was already facing it a year ago. Some things takes time.
ReplyDeleteHis response reveals a lack of familiarity with the serious nature of this blog and his need to present a better researched case and rationale for his cause before he offers criticisms.
Poster Mel Kaminsky beat me to the punch in responding to Freund's words, but there are still huge problems with the way Michael Freund speaks to the readers of this blog where superficiality and thin skin is definitely not a virtue. See reactions to Michael Freund's latest comments starting with "RaP" below:
"I would like to respond to the spurious criticism"
RaP: Calling something "spurious" does not mean that it is indeed so. Michael Freund, or someone from his organization, obviously paid good money to get their latest infomercial published in Mishpacha magazine for hire. The topic was not parev, it touches upon the very core of the Jewish people's self-identity.
Michael Freund assumes that everyone needs to respect his agenda and his organization's goals. On the contrary, he must accept that many people regard him with great suspicion and his organization's PR on its website, in its press releases to papers like The Jewish Press and now with articles promoting thier own goals as being spurious and having no legitimacy in either Jewish Law or in Jewish history since never have Jews or Judaism set out to do what Freund and his organization are doing, to "pre-empt" the work of Eliyahu HaNavi and the true Jewish Mashiach, as the Rambam states, to identify who is a Jew in the world at the end of days.
Freund is taking on a not-called-upon messianic job and in the process is not only proselytizing but also exhibiting clear signs of false messianism.
"and outright lashon hara"
RaP: Oh come now. You know when someone starts with lines like that they have no interest in real discussions and analysis but rather seek out the fake "moral high ground" which simply does not work in this case. This is not personal. I have never met Michael Freund and no doubt he is a terrific guy. But so what? When someone sets out to do the things that he and Shavei Israel do that effect the potential geirus or non-geirus of millions of gentiles who are or may or may not be "wannabe Jews" in the view of Shavei Israel, then it's a matter of tzorchei tzibbur that effects the entire klal and everyone and anyone concerned with tzorchei tzibbur and inyonei haklal has the right to chime in. We can't afford the PR hype and buying time slots in Jewish media, but we can opine on blogs and forums such as this one.
"contained in the March 19 post entitled, "RaP's criticism of proselytizing in Poland"."
RaP: Thanks for noticing and responding, albeit too briefly, and not seriously enough.
"I find it simply incomprehensible that my organization, Shavei Israel,"
RaP: It may be "your" organization, but its actvities and goals effect all Jews and you cannot expect that everyone will sit around and do nothing or give you a donation in these times when many well-meaning but ignorant people that have warm and fuzzy feelings about all sorts of ill-defined and ill-conceived "outreach" to people who are essentially gentiles halachically.
"is being labeled as "missionary" and criticized for helping people in Poland to return to their Jewish roots."
RaP: Michael, you play fast and loose with words and here is a perfect example because what you may consider "helping people" is indeed classed by others, just as educated and as well-informed as you, as pure and simple missionary-type proselytization. And what is this utter nonsense about "helping people in Poland to return to their Jewish roots" when it is NOT helping the Jewish people and it is NOT approved and encouraged by anyone except the people you have gone to after you cooked up this scheme?
Which and how many truly great rabbis have welcomed what you are doing? Can you cite the serious Halachic and Hashkafic rationales NOT as you think it should be told but as expounded and determined by great sages and poskim? Do Rav Eliashiv or Rav Kanievsky want this to go one? Do Rav Ovadia Yosef or Rav Amar justify it? How about citing as many serious sources and rabbinic backers as you can, but not as recruited and rounded up by you but rather those who have come to the conclusion that it's ok to go scratch around the globe and round up gentiles who may have tenuous connections to the Jewish people.
"Had the person who posted this tirade bothered to read the article in Mishpacha magazine in question,"
RaP: It was me, and it's not a "tirade" and I read it very well -- it's a passionately written critique after I had read and re-read the article very carefully a few times, and you obviously are prepared to twist and miscast my words which is a shame and reflects poorly on your methods and style of response that you caricaturize it rather than responding seriously.
"they would have seen quite clearly that I am quoted as saying the following: "For those interested in halachic conversion, we send them to the proper rabbinic authorities. For those who just want to learn more, we try to provide them with positive Jewish experiences.” Shavei Israel leaves the halachic aspect of each case to Israel’s Chief rabbinate. “Each case has its own set of evidence, its own level of proof or reliability,” Freund explains. “Is the Jewish line from the mother or the father? What kind of proof is there? These are things for a beis din to decide.”
RaP: If you re-read my response you will see that indeed I did go to the trouble of not just reading this passage in its entirety but of also typing it up and posting as part of the post and my critique, so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do see that you plat fast and loose with words to wish to gain points with others who you hope will take your superficial word for granted rather than personally reading what was actually written.
"There it is - in black and white - we leave these matters for a beis din to decide, because as Torah-observant Jews our fidelity is to Halacha and nothing else. We simply refer the people in question to rabbonim, and it is up to them to make the determination."
RaP: But you are being disingenuous because you did not only say one thing, but if you look at the quote you cite it is actually a multi-layered smorgasbord of views with options and not just of taking people to batei din alone.
Thus, it is YOU that offers at least THREE options: ONE: "For those interested in halachic conversion, we send them to the proper rabbinic authorities." TWO: "For those who just want to learn more, we try to provide them with positive Jewish experiences." And THREE (and even FOUR): "Is the Jewish line from the mother or the father? What kind of proof is there?"
All of these are dangerous actvities. Take a look at ONE and TWO: "For those interested in halachic conversion, we send them to the proper rabbinic authorities." What is this about? Do they wake up one morning and people and come to you asking for this, or have you and your organization stoked this up and brought it to the point that you then take them to batei din? What are you? An "escort service" (pardon the expression) for potential converts as you help them overcome facing bais din jitters?
And what's with this: ""For those who just want to learn more, we try to provide them with positive Jewish experiences"? If this is not proof positive and a self-admission that you and your organization are missionizing and proselytizing then what is? Who appointed you to give gentiles "positive Jewish experiences"? And pray tell, what are these "experiences"? Warm-up actvities of how to want to convert and not to be fearful of scary rabbis on a bais din?
Don't you see how from your own words you disprove the very argumenet you are trying to make? Which brings us full circle that you play fast and loose with words and use them very lightheartedly.
You will have to do a
lot better on this blog if you wish readers here to take your words seriously without feeling that you are just trying to take yet another group of dopes for a ride, as long as you can go jetting off to exotic locations in Russia to dig up Subbotniks or whatnot, or Poles and Eastern European goyim with very skimpy and essentially disconnected assoctaions with Jews and Judaism or of on one of your junkets to India, South America and even darkest Africa as you dig for your conversionary fool's gold that will only gum up the works of dayanim and batei din and not make batei din or dayanim all that enthralled or happy with your self-appointed false messianic task of "gathering up the non-exiles" that noone but yourself has asked you to do!
"Since when is referring people to a beis din considered "missionary" activity?"
RaP: Come on now. If you run around uninvited to all sorts of countries and the globe and write up long articles to spin your tale, and sometimes even turn apostates into heroes, and raise the potential of millions of people with scanty and nebulous connections to the Jews to think of "going to batei din" and then just call them innocent bystanders and "people" when you and your organization are responsible for raising up this rabble in a manner befitting a missionary in the boondaks and then expect that your pleas of George Washington-like innocenec should be believed then you really must think that people are very stupid when it's quite obvious what you and your organization are up to.
"Since when is respecting Torah law"
RaP: That is precisely the point. Torah Law states that one should not missionize and proselytize that is many steps BEFORE what you then cite Torah Law should be doing for you.
You do not seem to care that for at least the last 2000 years Judaism has had a definitive opposition to proselytization.
There have been many posts on this blog directed against Rabbi tropper and his EJF organization, and even against you and Shavei Israel over one year ago, but you never picked up on it till now, with citations of sources in Judaism opposing missionizing and exactly what you are doing (just that you want to sneak in under the radar by asserting that these people were "descendants" of Jews once upon-a-time), but see these posts. These are the main ones that you should have familiarized yourself with BEFORE you came here to give your objections without content, when this blog expects alot more of posters who wish to be taken seriously:
*Proselytizing is problematic II - Yevamos 109b (January 11, 2008)
*Proselytizing is problematic I - Aruch HaShulchan (January 8, 2008)
*Proselytizing is problematic III - Obligation to convert is on ger - not beis din (January 18, 2008)
*The Divide: Jewish missionary activity targeting non-Jews (February 2, 2008)
*Why didn't Ezra convert intermarried couples? (February 21, 2008)
*Valid conversions are not always good for the Jewish people - Rabbeinu Bachye (March 20, 2008)
*Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews [original document] (August 10, 2007)
*Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation (August 10, 2007)
*Kiruv for non-Jews with Jewish Identity II (August 24, 2007)
*Proselytizing by Reform Conservative & Orthodox (April 10, 2008)
*Rabbi Manny Vinas - part of movement that encourages converts (April 13, 2008)
and here are a few posts that were very worried about your own Shavei Israel's controversial mass proselytizations among Hispanics:
*Ingathering of Jews or proselytes? (March 2, 2008)
*Descendants of Marranos (Anousim) - should they be encouraged to convert? (March 3, 2008)
and my response to above problem:
*Descendants of Marranos (Anousim) - should they be encouraged to convert? II (March 3, 2008)
And in case you think I am against all legitimate desires for geirus according to the Torah and its Hashkofa, see these posts that prove that I am not:
*Jewish attitude towards gerim as manifested towards the Erev Rav (May 14, 2008)
*Recipients and Publicity - questions the integrity of the Syrian community as well as my own (May 2, 2008)
*Banning conversion for the sake of the community (May 2, 2008)
*Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz (May 4, 2008)
*Recipients and Publicity attacks the Syrian Takana & me -again & again & again (June 30, 2008)
"and following it cause for being the target of lashon hara?"
RaP: You are being self-righteous and it's not working. Maybe this will help you get a better perspective: Chazon Ish says it is halachicly proper - and perhaps even imperative - to reveal negative information about influential rabbis (March 14, 2008) -- and if it's true about rabbis it's true about active and very public people with increasingly high profiles like yourself.
"Michael Freund
Chairman, Shavei Israel"
RaP: Indeed.
Others are fighting this battle, too.
ReplyDeleteAre you aware of what the English-language team at Arutz Sheva is up to? It makes Michael Freund pale by comparison.
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