Roni has left a new comment on your post "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":
So why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?
Exactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJF for there were/are numerous charlatans (some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis) who made hundreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake conversions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot.
Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep Torah an mitzvot and did not show one iota that they would want change their lifestyle.
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Roni you have raised some solid issues 1) there is a need for improvement in the geirus issue - perhaps even stopping it as the Achiezer stated. Rav Moshe Feinstein stated that he himself is not involved because the success rate is so low. 2) How could all these important rabbis be involved in an organization if it weren't 100% kosher 3) There are some major rabbinical figures who were associated with EJF and have dropped out - such as Rav H. Shechter, Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Eisenstein and perhaps Rav Eliashiv himself. 4) The Bedatz issued a condemnation of the EJF after failing to receive any explanation from Rabbi Tropper for his proselytizing activities.
This latter question is the crux of our problem. I contacted EJF with the simple question - you claim to base yourself on the views of Rav Moshe Feinstein - what did he say because it is clearly not in the Igros Moshe. Rabbi Tropper himself responded and we went round and round - and he did not answer the question.
He refused to answer a rather elementary question - what is your justification from Rav Moshe Feinstein or Rav Eliashiv to spend millions of dollars on conventions to convince intermarried couples to convert? He said - what is the issur? The basic rule is who ever changes has the burden of proof. We have a very long history of rejecting proselytization.
In addition he felt it necessary to slander me in a correspondence with someone I referred to him regarding a geirus problem.
He insulted Rav Sternbuch in a letter he sent him regarding the geirus issue - and despite R' Tropper's promise to me that he would send an apology - he never did.
Theoretically my question could have been answered in 25 words or less. Theoretically there should be a kuntres describing the goals, techniques and halachic justification - so that EJF can be openly discussed by poskim. Rabbi Tropper told me there had been a manual in the beginning but it was discontinued because it wasn't clear. Why hasn't a new manual be issued?
Bottom line when someone acts suspiciously and dodges elementary questions, throws big bucks around in problemtaic activities as well as hands out big bucks to big rabbis for attending his program - and feels the necessity of insulting others such as Rav Sternbuch and the Modern Orthodox - that person loses his chezkas kashrus.
If R' Tropper is what you think he is - he could have cleared this issue up in five minutes - a year ago. I myself have repeatedly asked him to do just that. Maybe if he is your good friend you will give him this post - since he claims not to be involved with the internet - and maybe you can convince him to be more transparent and less "omnipotent fearless leader".
DT: "I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
So why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?
DT: No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks. The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements".
Exactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJF for there were/are numerous charlatans (some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis) who made hundreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake conversions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot.
Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep Torah an mitzvot and did not show one iota that they would want change their lifestyle.
==========================
Roni you have raised some solid issues 1) there is a need for improvement in the geirus issue - perhaps even stopping it as the Achiezer stated. Rav Moshe Feinstein stated that he himself is not involved because the success rate is so low. 2) How could all these important rabbis be involved in an organization if it weren't 100% kosher 3) There are some major rabbinical figures who were associated with EJF and have dropped out - such as Rav H. Shechter, Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Eisenstein and perhaps Rav Eliashiv himself. 4) The Bedatz issued a condemnation of the EJF after failing to receive any explanation from Rabbi Tropper for his proselytizing activities.
This latter question is the crux of our problem. I contacted EJF with the simple question - you claim to base yourself on the views of Rav Moshe Feinstein - what did he say because it is clearly not in the Igros Moshe. Rabbi Tropper himself responded and we went round and round - and he did not answer the question.
He refused to answer a rather elementary question - what is your justification from Rav Moshe Feinstein or Rav Eliashiv to spend millions of dollars on conventions to convince intermarried couples to convert? He said - what is the issur? The basic rule is who ever changes has the burden of proof. We have a very long history of rejecting proselytization.
In addition he felt it necessary to slander me in a correspondence with someone I referred to him regarding a geirus problem.
He insulted Rav Sternbuch in a letter he sent him regarding the geirus issue - and despite R' Tropper's promise to me that he would send an apology - he never did.
Theoretically my question could have been answered in 25 words or less. Theoretically there should be a kuntres describing the goals, techniques and halachic justification - so that EJF can be openly discussed by poskim. Rabbi Tropper told me there had been a manual in the beginning but it was discontinued because it wasn't clear. Why hasn't a new manual be issued?
Bottom line when someone acts suspiciously and dodges elementary questions, throws big bucks around in problemtaic activities as well as hands out big bucks to big rabbis for attending his program - and feels the necessity of insulting others such as Rav Sternbuch and the Modern Orthodox - that person loses his chezkas kashrus.
If R' Tropper is what you think he is - he could have cleared this issue up in five minutes - a year ago. I myself have repeatedly asked him to do just that. Maybe if he is your good friend you will give him this post - since he claims not to be involved with the internet - and maybe you can convince him to be more transparent and less "omnipotent fearless leader".
Most people who stay silence regarding r' tropper activities do so because one of two reasons: they received money from him or they afraid of him.
ReplyDeleteIt is such a kidush hshem and a public service that rebbi Eidensohn has no fear and he is not being corrupted by the big bucks.
Rabbi EIdensohn, you are the Nachshon and the pinchus of this generation.
Dt,
ReplyDeleteYou may have some valid points here. But have gone far far beyond of these points.
ALso, Some of your points lose validity when they are contrary to what is seen in the open. RT claims to have backing by big Rabonim. You cannot just ignore this fact. Rav Reuven Feinstein supports him in action. You have the Chief Rabi of Israel attening some of the sessions. You have choshuver rabonim and dayanim who attend those sessions (for instance Rav Ehrentrau) ). Even some who dropped from the scene agreed to the idea in principle. Why do you think they agreed to this?
Because they felt the NEED. Why did they feel the need? Because the situation as it was was just dismal. You have many rabbis and some who just do massive amounts of conversions without any serious kabbalat hamitzvot. Many of them knew of the idea of HaRav Shternbuch that we were not in the business of proselytizing and yet they felt the need in the "bediavad" situation where we have many intermarried couples and many of them would like to convert genuinely so let us create a system that allows to remedy the issue once bediavad while we uproot the fake conversion that have been implemented for decades. And this was and is the rationale for this organization.
Yes, you can and should raise your objections. But you must remember that you have to make within proportions. YUou cannot accuse him of proseltyzing while you do not address the status quo ante of having rabis who make a bussiness out of fake conversions. If you will prove that the Dayanim that EJF sends their prospective candidates are also guilty of the crime then you will certainly be a victor on yuor arguments against them. But if you will find out that their converts, by annd large, began with a Kabbalat hamitzvot" while the rabbis (like RHB) whom they came to replace made a business of disregarding the need for Kabalat hamtizvot" then your argument loses it's meaning.
Yes, it could very well be that EJF would not able to reconcile both ideals (of saving the bediavad while adhering to a higher standard of gerut); but their goal certainly was this from it's inception. That is why Rabbis of great renown were active participants in this organization and some are still now.
But if you defend your stance to criticize vehemently the organization and even allow people to attack rabbis associated with the organization as "money fressers" (even though many of them are Talmidey Chachomim Yireh Shomayim), you must come up with an equal strategy to condemn rqabis who were/are in the position of making fake and phony gerut in the first place. YOu must acknowledge in your debate the need to stem a worse tide of thousands of goyim become part of klal yisroel by other Orthodox rabbis who knowingly could not care less about demanding the lowest standard of kabbalat hamitzvot (and this was especially so when the prospect has big $$$ to share with the Rabbi) and if you do not you lose the argument.
a poshut yid,
ReplyDelete1) You accuse Rav Reuven of receving money by Tropper?
2) I hope that you and your buddies will also make a kidush hashem and a public servant by not receiving any big bucks by people you to help convert them without kabbalat hamitzvot by corrupt rabbis (like RHB and company).
roni said...
ReplyDeleteRoni: DtYou may have some valid points here. But have gone far far beyond of these points.
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DT:At last we are moving to an understanding.
Roni: ALso, Some of your points lose validity when they are contrary to what is seen in the open. RT claims to have backing by big Rabonim. You cannot just ignore this fact. Rav Reuven Feinstein supports him in action. You have the Chief Rabi of Israel attening some of the sessions. You have choshuver rabonim and dayanim who attend those sessions (for instance Rav Ehrentrau) ). Even some who dropped from the scene agreed to the idea in principle. Why do you think they agreed to this?
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DT I would agree with you if I were on my own it would be problematic what I am doing - but with the encouragement of Rav Sternbuch as well the public criticism of R' Tropper by the Bedatz - I have whom to rely on. The burden of proof of all these rabbis is to explain why they are supporting R' Tropper in his campaign of proselytizing.
R' Tropper has denied he is proselytizing and has asserted that he only deals with those who have been recommended by Rabbis. However R' Tropper recent ad [posted on this blog] soliciting participants to join a conference to consider if they want to convert - clearly is a refutation to that defense.
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You are throwing out a red herring by your repeated insistence that there is a problem with geirus. Of course there is a problem. However that doesn't allow anybody to do what they want in the name of solving the problem!
As Rav Sternbuch told me, "it has always been the way that if someone wants to introduce an innovation he wrote up a teshuva explaining what and why he was doing it - so that other rabbonim can decide whether they agree or disagree."
Where are R' Tropper's teshuvos which state that what he is doing is acceptable? When I asked him that question he said, "look in your Yad Moshe index and you'll find it in the Igros Moshe." That was an incredibly condescending statement. There is no such teshuva in the Igros Moshe. He finally acknowledged that he meant that geirus for the sake of marriage is discussed. But that is not and never was the issue - as anybody who has studied gemora for a few years can tell you.
Finally - the fact that there is a problem doesn't require that I run after all the rabbis who are part of the acknowledged problem - which has been around for many years.
But when someone claims to have a new solution to the problem - but at the same time seems to be making the problem worse - that is clearly something that can and should be stopped.
DT,
ReplyDelete"but with the encouragement of Rav Sternbuch as well the public criticism of R' Tropper by the Bedatz - I have whom to rely on. The burden of proof of all these rabbis is to explain why they are supporting R' Tropper in his campaign of proselytizing"".
You have a point that R' Tropper should explain his position. But, as said before, big Rabbonim and posskim knew and know his position, and besides HaRav Sternbuch none of those RAbonim felt that this was wrong. You had Rabbis liked Rav Herschel Schechter, Rav Feinstein, Chief Rabbi of Israel, even Rabbi Eisenstein who follows HaRav Elyashiv strict positions and they not only have not opposed, but they *endorsed* him by PERSONALLY attending these conventions! So he certainly has the backing of these RAbbis *in principle* ie. they do not oppose him for "proselyting". Even if some of them backed out their endorsement of R. Troper, they did so for *other*reasons (not their opposition for the prinipple). So if you have valid and legitimate arguments, he has backing LEMASSEH from these RAbbonim who are entitled to argue with HaRav Sternbuch.
DT wrote:
"You are throwing out a red herring by your repeated insistence that there is a problem with geirus. Of course there is a problem. However that doesn't allow anybody to do what they want in the name of solving the problem!"
With all due respect to you; it is not a redd herring. And failure in your part to address this problem and attack theproblem, when really the problem (contrary to your claim) is WORSE than his solution gives him right to state: I anm offering asolution (though not ideal) for a far worse problem.
The reason that his solution is better than the problem is simple (soemthing you seem to ommit in your analysis): The Gerus that the Batey Dinim that he sends his prospect to, ONLY make Geut with *KaBbalat Hamitzvot* (which is the basic ingredient for gerut) where the converts will be bedieved Jewish!; whereas those who attack it attempt to preserve a stance of allowing goyim to become yidden! because without kabbalat hamitvot the gerut is null and void!
"Finally - the fact that there is a problem doesn't require that I run after all the rabbis who are part of the acknowledged problem - which has been around for many years".
Why not? If you are a Rabbi that is concerned with problems that affect Klal Yisroel??? Why is not the problem of GEdoyley YIsroel to stop Goyim from becoming part of klal yisroel??? by rabbis who are interested in maknig a quick buck???
DT wrote:"Finally - the fact that there is a problem doesn't require that I run after all the rabbis who are part of the acknowledged problem - which has been around for many years".
ReplyDeleteRoni wrote: Why not? If you are a Rabbi that is concerned with problems that affect Klal Yisroel??? Why is not the problem of GEdoyley YIsroel to stop Goyim from becoming part of klal yisroel??? by rabbis who are interested in maknig a quick buck???
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Are you really so naive. This is a blog - not the CIA or even New York Times. I am sitting at my desk here in Jerusalem - working on a sefer on child abuse and in my breaks put postings on my blog.
Information that I have access to is primarily internet or newspapers. Rabbi Tropper thoughtfully encourages publicity about how great he is and all the wonderful things he does. You might have noticed that the other rabbis in the geirus business don't operate that way. The other rabbis don't organize major conferences and spend millions of dollars. They don't fly around the world stirring up other people. They don't insert press releases in newspapers nor do they encourage publication of interviews with them.
In short - unless you would like to contribute a lot of money - I have no way of collecting the facts. Without the facts I have no basis for saying anything about these other rabbis. I do what I can.
Maybe you would like to write a report and carefully document it so there is no concern for being sued for libel. I would be willing to publish your report. So lets make it a partnership - I'll take care of reporting on Rabbi Tropper - and you can have the rest!
NO, they are not exclusive issues. They are intertwined. Have you spoken to some of the Rabbonim what they think of the situation in Gerut? Again, I ask kindly of you: Have you spoken to Rav Feinstein to know the reason for his participation with R. Troper? Have you spoken to him on the situation of Rabbis performing Gerut in the USA for the past decades. Btw: You can see in Igrot Moshe how the abysmal sitaution of gerut was in his days! It is documented in his works. The things have not changed that much. How can you just report and criticize and condemn vehemently part of the story and claim that R, Tropper solution is worse than the problem when you did not even take a look to see whether your analysis is right? Again: What is worse in your eyes: Bringing Goyim to Klal yisroel or GErim bediavad?
ReplyDeleteAgain, I refer to you to the great rAbbis that participate in these conventions. Please tell me: Have you spoken to one of them to ask clarification why they supported RT in principle?
It is ironic that the ejf apologist accuses rabbi bomzer of profiting from conversion while ignoring the fact that tropper profited many times over from involving with conversion.
ReplyDeleteHe is now a chosuv man traveling all over the world with his entourage ( since when rabbis have entourage? What happened to the shamash?) Mingling with rabbis, running those conferences and retreats. Maybe he did not profit financially (or maybe he did) but for sure he profited by gaining power. Without getting involved in geirus he would still be unknown rosh yeshiva from monsey.
He says that his standards are higher from rabbi bomzer, I am not sure, rabbi bomzer requires from intermarried couple to separate for 3 months before the conversion but tropper does not.
It just make sense that the people who pay for their own conversion will respect it more than people who their conversion was paid by a third party. Just like people who own their home treat it better than people where the government pay their rent.
Tropper uses his kaplan derived power to take on on his enemies; rabbi Noach Weinberg, rabbi Bomzer, chabbad and MO.
The Modern Orthodox still associate with him after he let them be marginalized. In one of his conferences and by nullifying a conversion of a MO woman because she sometimes did not cover her hair.
[...]
roni said...
ReplyDeleteAgain, I refer to you to the great rAbbis that participate in these conventions. Please tell me: Have you spoken to one of them to ask clarification why they supported RT in principle?
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Again I would like to commend you on your innocence and naivete - and abundant sincerity.
You want to know if the following happened, "Hello Rabbi Feinstein, could you explain why you are supporting Rabbi Tropper when there seems to be no halachic basis for what he is doing and he has been strongly condemned for this by the Bedatz?"
Let me repeat for the last time. The obligation is on those who innovate to justify their position - especitally when criticized by major rabbonim.
I asked Rav Sternbuch whether he had been able to get clarification from any of the rabbonim associated with EJF and he said, "I have not been able to get a staight answer from them.
I asked a major talmid of one of the gedolim who attended the Washington conference as to why his rebbe had gone - especially since he is not a posek. He replied, When he came back he said that the conference was "shtus v'hevel."
I asked why did he go then. This student said simply, "He apparently needed the money that Rabbi Tropper was handing out."
Rabbi Reuven Feinstein is well aware of the criticism - but has not responded. In fact at the end of the exchange of emails I had with Rabbi Tropper when he refused to answer my elementary questions he said, "You should speak to Rav Reuven Feinstein to get an explanation. He knows who you are. But don't do it now because he is upset with you because of your criticism."
The gedolim associated with Rabbi Tropper are well aware they are being criticized. In fact one of their major poskim asked to have a meeting with me in order that I would clarify my criticism since he was mistakenly convinced that I had single handed convinced Rav Sternbuch and the Bedatz to attack EJF.
I agreed to the meeting which was to take place at Rav Sternbuch's home. After waiting an hour I left.
The burden is on them to explain what they are doing! I have made it abundantly clear the basis of my concerns.
"Rabbi bomzer requires from intermarried couple to separate for 3 months before the conversion but tropper does not...".
ReplyDeleteHe requires nothing of the sort! When the prospect convert has some cash there is no need for *anything*.
You have also gone in a rampage against RT all over the blogs. IT clearly seems that RHB's rejection by the most rabbonim is one of the reasons for your vile attacks at him. He may merit some criticism but your vile attacks go far overboard. And I repeat any of the criticisms leveled at RT do not come to the heels of phony conversions made by Rabis like RHB.
Dear DT,
ReplyDeleteYou may even have a point that since they are innovating and changing from the previous stance they have an obligation to explain. But since in fact, it is over a year (I believe) that you are an ongoing attack at EJF and it's Rabbis, one would think that it would be more appropriate for you to address them directly before you attack them in public! After all, they also deserve the benefit of the doubt that you legitimately want to R. Slifkin etc.
Now I would like you to again focus on the facts on the ground to see if the criticisms you are leveling at the organization is proportional to the facts on the ground: After 3 or 4 years of existence how many converts has EJF made? And most importantly HOw many had KAbbalat Hamitzvot? (MAybe the numbers they converted do not reach the hype of your concerns where they have not converted in the whole three years thousands of converts to be seen as "proseltyzing" and most importantly they adghered to mitzvot for a "Zman chashuv" (lashon IM).
IN contrast: How many conversions have been performed by one rabbi like RHB in these three years and better: in the three years preceding EJF's inception. And how many of his conversions had any kabbalat hamitavot. After you have done the data you come back and have legitimacy to your criticism (otherwise it lacks firm and solid grounding, as the *worse* concern is in entry of goyim into klal yisroel!).
Btw: You have not contacted RHS to ask him why he felt that EJF was a good idea in the first place? HAve you asked RNE why he felt that Rav ELyasahiv felt it was good thing (Since he went to these covnentions) and you can also add to the list: Rav WOsner and ask one of the Dayanim that are from his talmidim muvhakim in these areas Rav Stern, why he (Rav Wosner) felt that this innovation is not contrary to the tradition up until then.
Dei'ah veDibur posts a new major pronouncement from the VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR in spite of Rabbi Tropper's and EJF's self-advertised presence in Israel with no mention of Rabbi Tropper and EJF, maintaining it's polite yet very evident distance from both Rabbi Tropper and EJF that has lasted for months indicative of serious difference of views between Rabbi Tropper of EJF and Rav Nochum Eisenstein of the Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur, exact details of which remain unpublicized.
ReplyDeleteNotice how the lats paragraph of this news reoprt below would normally reflect the views of EJF but the name "EJF" is left out of the statement as the Israeli based Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur sees itself as head and shoulders above EJF and does not deem it needs EJF's participation in such an annpouncment that ostensibly refelcts EJF's goals as well. Bottom line, EJF is not needed in Israel, and the Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur will do just fine also handling all the global and massive Halachic issues of which Batei Din are suitable for and from strict Haredi standards, as they proved when they visited and reported on in Riga, Latvia http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5769/NCH69ariga.htm and in Prague, Czech Republic http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5769/CHS69apragueger.htm .
The last time Dei'ah veDibur posted an announcement about EJF affairs and specifically mentionting the name "EJF" or "Rabbi Tropper" was about a conference in Jerusalem in in June 2008 http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5768/BHL68aejf.htm But it had nothing to report or post about a later EJF conference in November http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=24825 nor about Rabbi Tropper's participation in the Prague conference http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/11/rabbi-tropper-prague-what-happened.html nor about two upcoming seminars one in December 08 http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/programs/seminars/ as well as a meeting in January 09 in Israel http://www.hidabroot.org/BNRImgDetail.asp?AdvertisementID=129
Things may change because neither EJF and Rabbi Tropper nor Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur and Rabbi Eisenstien have made anything publicly clear yet, and they both have lines of communication to Rav Eliashiv the final arbiter of such issues, but given that Rabbi Eisenstein attended the Philadelphia meeting that EJF sponsored but neither EJF, nor Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur, nor any print or Internet source stated that Rav Eisenstein was there, clearly indicates that a serious split has erupted and it is only a matter of time before the issues become public and the parties go their own way.
At: http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5769/VYS69ageirus.htm
"14 Kislev 5769 - December 11, 2008
NEWS
Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur: The Chief Rabbinate Should Dissociate Itself from Conversion Authority
By Yechiel Sever
Muli Jesselson was recently selected to serve as director of the Chief Rabbinate's conversion administration in place of Moshe Klein, who was forced to resign for technical reasons after his predecessor, Rabbi Chaim Druckman, was forced into early retirement.
Vaad HaRabbonim LeInyonei Giyur, founded by the late Gavad of Antwerp HaRav Chaim Kreiswirth, denounced the appointment, which was decided independently despite a promise that the selection would be coordinated with the Chief Rabbinate. Vaad HaRabbonim claims the job tender was directly influenced by Government Secretary Ovad Yechezkel, who on several occasions has declared conversion candidates should be given leniencies and their numbers should be increased. The Vaad has learned that Chief Rabbi Amar met with Jesselson and promised him full cooperation, despite the fact that Chief Rabbi Amar was not in favor of the appointment.
"It's absurd for secular people who do not subordinate themselves to halacha to have the authority to appoint officials to the Conversion Authority without requiring the Chief Rabbinate's consent, particularly in the case of this appointment, which is a position involving spiritual matters and should be manned by a talmid chochom yirei Shomayim in order to reach decisions and set policies on the delicate issues related to conversion affairs. Jesselson is not known as a rabbinical figure and his unacceptable views on conversion are well known. He is currently serving as director of the department for conversion preparation at a Jewish studies institute that has been banned by all gedolei Yisroel shlita and by the Chief Rabbinate as well because it collaborates with Conservative organizations."
The Vaad also expressed concerns that an unsuitable appointment for the post of Conversion Administration chairman could be next.
Vaad HaRabbonim is calling on the Chief Rabbinate to absolve itself of responsibility for the Conversion Authority and stop recognizing the conversions it performs. "The Chief Rabbinate cannot certify conversions that are not under the control of rabbonim yirei Shomayim from the early preparation stage through the end of the conversion process if the conversion candidates do not undertake genuine mitzvah observance in full," said a Vaad HaRabbonim spokesman.
According to directives issued by maranan verabonon shlita the entire conversion issue should only be handled only by a limited conversion system run by knowledgeable dayanim with a fear of Heaven and in accordance with halacha in its unadulterated form, and the conversions themselves should be performed at reputable, permanent botei din.
I do not think rabbi tropper converts are doing better than rabbi Bomzer converts.
ReplyDeleteYou can call rabbi Shlomo Zarchi of San Francisco who is on rabbi Tropper payroll. He send at least 2 couples to rabbi. Tropper and at least 5 couples to rabbi Bomzer.
The couples who went to rabbi Tropper are not religious anymore and the couples who went to rabbi Bomzer are still hanging there.
I know of many (rabim hem veii efshar leportom) cases where RHB's converts NEVER kept anything to begin with! they were NEVER expected to keep anything! The Rabbanut wrote ten years ago that his gerut needs bedika (they haven't written this yet about RT's conversions). Ask Rav Reuven Feinstein about Rabbi Bomzer. Ask other great posskim about his gerussen. Ask Rabbi Eisenstien (Publicities new "ally" to attack RT) about RHB's conversions practices. They will tell you the truth and then return to us with their report!
ReplyDeleteASk Rabb Zarchi if he himself was involved in one of the conversions himself! (of those who do not practice anymore)!
All the names of rabbis the tropper apologist mentioned are names of haredi rabbis, modern orthodox and chabad still hold by him.
ReplyDeleteIt is boiled down to the fact not denied by rony that tropper hate with a vengeance modern orthodoxy, chabad and rabbi Noach Weinberg.
Kanoim like tropper actually went after Rabbi Bomzer for other modern orthodoxy things like running the vaad harabanin of Flatbush and for holding by the flatbush eiruv.
Tropper hatred for modern orthodoxy is being taught to his talmidim here who call modern orthodox "shkotzim" and refer to people who support the state of Israel "idolatry worshipers"
Tropper actually try to go after other modern orthodox conversions, those by rabbi Gedalia Schwartz of the RCA but obviously rabbi Bomzer is an easier target.
There was a comment about a three month wait. I was told that many batei dinim rely on a pregnency test. This is based on the Seride Eish who agreed with others to wave it in a similar case. Their case was with a woman who had a physical problem which doctors claimed made her infertile. I believe that this is the policy in the Detroit BD and maybe even the RCA. It is controversial but not impossible.
ReplyDeleter’ Tropper already caused damage in klal israel (see Gideon Busch) when he was only keiruv. Now as the Tony Soprano of the geirus business he can cause much more damage. There Are already reports of botched conversions and subsequent divorce because of the interference of Tropper
ReplyDeleteThe most disturbing thing is the nullification of the Modern Orthodox woman who did not cover her hair, not only because the triviality of it but because the potential for memzerus and eshes ish.
If they split without a get and the woman continues to sleep with Jewish guys there now are in sefek eshes ish and if she has future children they are safek memzerin.
Why Tropper think is better to bring safek eshes ish and safek mamzerus to the world than using the "bediavad" and let the conversion stay (even she is a Modern Orthodox)?
The $64, 000 question is why rav Elyashiv let him do so because he did not like it when rav Goren nullify a conversion in order to metaer mamzerim.
"Why Tropper think is better to bring safek eshes ish and safek mamzerus to the world than using the "bediavad" and let the conversion stay (even she is a Modern Orthodox)?"
ReplyDeleteYou answered your own question, tropper apprearntly thinks that more mamzerim than more modern orthodox.
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