Does Chabad utilize Dor Yeshorim?
Haaretz reports
Another tragedy befell the family of Mumbai attack victims Rabbi Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg on Tuesday, as long-term illness claimed the life of the couple's 4-year-old son.
Dov Holtzberg, the brother of Moshe who was saved from the terrorist attack in Mumbai last month by his Indian nanny, had been struggling with a genetic illness since birth.
Over the past few years, while his parents and younger brother resided in the Chabad House in Mumbai, Dov had been hospitalized at a nursing institution in Israel under the care of his grandparents.
His body will be laid to rest later on Tuesday in Jerusalem, next to his parents and his older brother Menachem, who died from the same genetic illness.[...]
Another tragedy befell the family of Mumbai attack victims Rabbi Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg on Tuesday, as long-term illness claimed the life of the couple's 4-year-old son.
Dov Holtzberg, the brother of Moshe who was saved from the terrorist attack in Mumbai last month by his Indian nanny, had been struggling with a genetic illness since birth.
Over the past few years, while his parents and younger brother resided in the Chabad House in Mumbai, Dov had been hospitalized at a nursing institution in Israel under the care of his grandparents.
His body will be laid to rest later on Tuesday in Jerusalem, next to his parents and his older brother Menachem, who died from the same genetic illness.[...]
Of course we do. From what I hear, there were extenuating circumstances in this case, ve'ein kaan hamakom. But what disturbs me is the implication. It's like someone hearing that a pedestrian in Lakewood got knocked over, and asking "Do Litvaks look before crossing the road?" Just plain stupid and insulting.
ReplyDeleteHow come they did not undergo a Tay-Sachs test?
ReplyDeleteDoes Chabad not approve of it?
Chabadnik said...
ReplyDeleteOf course we do. From what I hear, there were extenuating circumstances in this case, ve'ein kaan hamakom. But what disturbs me is the implication. It's like someone hearing that a pedestrian in Lakewood got knocked over, and asking "Do Litvaks look before crossing the road?" Just plain stupid and insulting.
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No it is more like a situation of an auto accident where the injuries resulted from not using seat belts.
Rav Noach Weinberg told me that it is a lack of bitachon to use seat belts.
I remember years ago, hearing from a Lubavitcher in Crown Heights that there was no incidence of Downs Syndrome in Chabad because of the L. Rebbe's beracha.
Even Rav Moshe himself felt that a person should not go for medical tests without having some symptoms.
In other words there are legitimate hashkofa issues and there are people who assert that testing shouldn't be done.
Genetic testing is not fail proof.
ReplyDeleteI know of an Egyptian Jewish man (who supposedly do not carry Tay Sachs) who married a non Jewish woman (a nurse he met in Israel!!) whose two children died from Tay Sachs.
Rav Noach Weinberg told me that it is a lack of bitachon to use seat belts.
ReplyDelete===================
No disrespect intended - but did you mistakenly leave out a word or is this accurate?
KT
Joel Rich
"I remember years ago, hearing from a Lubavitcher in Crown Heights that there was no incidence of Downs Syndrome in Chabad because of the L. Rebbe's beracha."
ReplyDeleteQuoting some guy in CH doesn't mean much. Every community has nut jobs.
In the same CH is Heart to Heart an organization founded to support families of special needs children from moment they get the shocking news through childhood. The overwhelming majority of their population has Downs. (I know because my wife's on the staff -- even if the staff page thinks I'm named "David", has my previous job and misses one of our children.)
When a child with Downs is born in New Square and the parents are told by "chashever rabbanim" or an admo"r to abandon the child -- in Good Sam, a Catholic hospital! -- and tell the world it was a neifel, R' Lazer Goldstock is there with flowers and a "Mazal Tov".
If you want to see a more authentic L attitude toward Downs, see "The Real Challenge, the Real Change" from his blog.
-micha
Tsiva:
ReplyDeleteYou leave out an important information: Did they test?
i.e. are you saying that they tested negative and still had the gene?
Or are you saying that they didn't test because they thought it was not necessary?
There are people who refuse dor yesharim, because it is too expensive, or out of principle...
Joel Rich wrote:
ReplyDeleteRav Noach Weinberg told me that it is a lack of bitachon to use seat belts.
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No disrespect intended - but did you mistakenly leave out a word or is this accurate?
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Yes this is accurate. He told me that using excessive protection such as using seat belts actually increases your danger.
Approximately what year did he say it? What other examples would fit (e.g. motorcycle helmet...)
ReplyDeleteKT
Joel Rich
"In other words there are legitimate hashkofa issues and there are people who assert that testing shouldn't be done."
ReplyDeleteFascinating. I would be very interested in seeing you do a post in which you lay out the positions of various poskim on this issue.
Joel Rich wrote:
ReplyDeleteApproximately what year did he say it? What other examples would fit (e.g. motorcycle helmet...)
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It was about 15 years ago.
getting vaccinations (he wasn't sure about this), cancer tests
These issues relate to the question of bitachon. "Be innocent with G-d"
Discussed by Ramban Devarim (18:13)and Bereishis (17:1)
Should you go to an astrologer see also Y.D. 179.
See also Daas Torah page 355-419.
Will bitachon protect us from harm or should we accept that whatever happens is in our best interest.
Rav Noach Weinberg told me that it is a lack of bitachon to use seat belts.
ReplyDeleteI do not accept statements made over 15 yrs ago when the knowledge in the auto industry as in others is inadequate (who today does NOT know that cigarette smoking causes cancer?). ASK him today is 'wearing seat belts a lack of bitachon", ridiculous statement unless he meant who drives a personal private car in Israel anyway (15yrs ago?)?
"Joel Rich wrote:
ReplyDeleteRav Noach Weinberg told me that it is a lack of bitachon to use seat belts.
===================
No disrespect intended - but did you mistakenly leave out a word or is this accurate?
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Yes this is accurate. He told me that using excessive protection such as using seat belts actually increases your danger."
This bring up an interesting question, at what point it is considered an excessive protection? Health insurance?, car insurance?, homeowner insurance?, flood insurance?, hearth quake insurance?, alien invasion Insurance?
I think I share others difficulty in understanding R'Weinbergs example of the seat belt, especially in light of todays knowledge of how many people are saved by seatbelts.
ReplyDeleteRael Levinsohn said...
ReplyDeleteI think I share others difficulty in understanding R'Weinbergs example of the seat belt, especially in light of todays knowledge of how many people are saved by seatbelts.
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When I asked him 15 years ago - I viewed it as strange. The statistics were clear years before that.
The Monsey Tzadik said...
ReplyDeleteThis bring up an interesting question, at what point it is considered an excessive protection? Health insurance?, car insurance?, homeowner insurance?, flood insurance?, hearth quake insurance?, alien invasion Insurance?
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A number of years ago there was a person in lakewood who died in a accident - he had no insurance because of his belief that it violated bitachon. The ironic point was that he was an insurance agent.
The issue of bitachaon versus hishtadlus is a complicated one and one given to diverse and contradictory understandings
"It was about 15 years ago.
ReplyDeletegetting vaccinations (he wasn't sure about this), cancer tests"
Interesting. I'd be very curious about what he sees as the chiluk between seat belts and vaccinations such that he's sure about one and not about the other. Also, I'd be very curious to know what he holds regarding vaccinations now, because there is now a vocal minority of people who express grave concerns about the safety of vaccines; I don't think such voices were so prominent 15 years ago.
As to R' Weinberg's statement that seat belt use increases danger, it's not as crazy as it may seem at first glance. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt, in the section entitled "Risk compensation." I for one plan to continue using seat belts when I drive, but R' Weinberg may very well have a point here. Tzarich Iyun.
Chizki said...
ReplyDelete"It was about 15 years ago.
getting vaccinations (he wasn't sure about this), cancer tests"
Interesting. I'd be very curious about what he sees as the chiluk between seat belts and vaccinations such that he's sure about one and not about the other. Also, I'd be very curious to know what he holds regarding vaccinations now, because there is now a vocal minority of people who express grave concerns about the safety of vaccines; I don't think such voices were so prominent 15 years ago.
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His concerns were not related at all to possible dangers of vaccinations. It was simply whether one took extra precautions which indicated a lack of bitachon. seat belts he viewed as clearly being overly cautious while vaccinations were something he wasn't sure of.
There are christian sects who believe in "abstaining from medicine". Result: a simple cold can bring them into the grave... (or Jehoav's witnesses who refuse blood transfusions).
ReplyDeleteI always thought that the jewish point of view was "We shamarta et nafshecha": If you can do something for your health/security, do it.
By the way: you would have to balance "lack of Bitachon" against "conceit, because you think you are a Tzadik and deserve a nes".
Perhaps R. Weinberg meant that an orthodox jew should not use any car, hence no need for seatbelts? This would be a possible solution.
As far as genetic testing is concerned, I am a bit ambivalent.
I think that in the jewish "Shidduch-Set-up", where you do not just meet anybody, Dor Yesharim has its place, more so than asking whether he is Kippa sruga or kippa shechora, Chassidish or Litvish, Peyot dangling down or behind the ears.
In a different set-up, where people just "meet", I would find it difficult to implement genetic testing.
By the way this is also widely discussed in the society at large: should parents who both have the Tay SAchs gene be allowed to screen embryos before implanting them? Should they be allowed to test for Tay Sachs and abort if positive (I think this is permissible according to civil law, screening is not)?
And the question is also: where does genetic testing stop.
ReplyDeleteFor the time being, Dor Yesharim tests for recessive genetic disease, in order to avoid that two carriers of the gene marry.
But what about this gene mutation that seems to cause Breast cancer? As far as I understoot, if one spouse has it, the children have 50% risk of inherting it? So should persons who carry it be avoided? Who will marry them?
"His concerns were not related at all to possible dangers of vaccinations. It was simply whether one took extra precautions which indicated a lack of bitachon."
ReplyDeleteI understand. I'm mentioning the possible harmfulness of the protective measure being employed as an additional and separate factor in one's decision-making in these matters.
I'm still very curious about the underlying chiluk R' Weinberg sees between seat belts and vaccines. Saying that one constitutes being overly cautious while the other does not isn't really an answer in and of itself, because the question remains as to why he sees it this way. If he didn't provide any further explanation, then that's OK. I just think the answer may be very illuminating in terms of understanding how R' Weinberg approaches bitachon.
Rav Moshe paskened that buying life insurance is not a contradiction to bitachon.
ReplyDeletetzoorba said...
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe paskened that buying life insurance is not a contradiction to bitachon.
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o.c. 2:111
o.c. 4:48
Dor Yeshorim has a letter written by Horav Marlov O"bm - as the Av Beis Din of Crown Heights - telling people to use Dor Yeshorim's tests. If my memory serves me correctly, Rav Groner had a letter sent by Dor Yeshorim to the Lubavitcher Rebbe O"bm.
ReplyDeleteRivkkeh Holtzberg was one of my best friends and today is another very sad day for me,I remember when she confided to me that based on a letter from the Rebbes Igros she decided against the results of their dor yeshurim test, I was begging her to change her mind ,but 3 rabbonim blessed her shidduch, and the rest is history”
ReplyDeleteShoshi,
ReplyDelete"There are christian sects who believe in "abstaining from medicine"."
True. But one shouldn't dismiss such an approach as being completely foreign to our mesorah. See the comment by the Ibn Ezra on Exodus 21:19 ("...verapo yerape"). Here's a description of it by R' David Bleich of RIETS from p.6 of his book "Judaism and Healing" (KTAV Publishing, 2002):
"According to Ibn Ezra, Scripture grants license for therapeutic intervention only for treatment of external wounds. Wounds inflicted by man, either by design or by accident, may legitimately be treated by any means known to mankind. That which has been inflicted by man may be cured by man. However, internal wounds or physiological disorders, according to this view, are not encompassed in the injunction "and he shall cause to be thoroughly healed." Such afflictions are presumed to be manifestations of divine rebuke or punishment, and only God who afflicts may heal."
http://books.google.com/books?id=4hfMo8AZ3a4C&pg=PP1&dq=Judaism+and+Healing+J.+David+Bleich
We don't pasken like the Ibn Ezra, but it's clear that there is at least one Rishon who holds that the Torah places rather draconian limits on our pursuit of medical treatment.
(I'd note that Ibn Ezra's opinion on obtaining medical treatment as presented there appears not to be based on any concerns he has about bitachon; rather, it flows directly from his understanding of the mikra. It'd be interesting to find what his views on bitachon are, but I'm not up to that task at this point.)