Words of Chazal - human or Divine?

Leshem (2:4:19): The critical point is that every Jew is obligated to believe with perfect faith that all which is found in the words of our Sages—both in halacha, Talmudic agada and medrashim—are in their entirety the words of the living G‑d. That is because everything that they say is with ruach hakodesh (Sanhedrin 48:). This includes even that which isn’t relevant to Halacha and deed… Also all their decrees and statutes are not the product of human intellect at all but rather are the result of ruach hakodesh in which G‑d has expressed Himself through them. This is the great sound that doesn’t end (Devarim 5:19) of the giving of the Torah at Sinai and it expresses itself in the Oral Torah…. Thus, the Sages are just like messengers in what they say…. This is why the Baal Halachos Gedolos includes the Rabbinic mitzvos with the Torah mitzvos since all of them were given by G‑d (Chagiga 3b)…We can conclude from all this that anyone who tries to analyze the words of the Sages in order to establish the nature of their truth places himself in great danger. That is because man’s intellect cannot properly comprehend this matter and thus a person can come to heresy from the endeavor. This is what Koheles (7:16) states: “Don’t make yourself too wise—why destroy yourself?” A person who gets involved in this matter will find it very difficult to resist following his human understanding. He will end up going back and forth between the view of the Torah and that of his own understanding…. The righteous person lives by his faith because that is the foundation of the entire Torah….

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[i] לשם שבו ואחלמה דרושי עולם התוהו חלק ב' דרוש ד' ענף י"ט ס' ו' (דף 161). והעיקר המחויב לכל מי אשר בשם ישראל יכונה להאמין באמונה שלימה שכל מה שנמצא בדברי רז"ל בהלכות ואגדות בש"ס ומדרשים הם כולם דברי אלקים חיים כי כל מה שאמרו הוא ברוח ה' אשר דיבר בם במסוד ה' ליראיו וכמו שמצינו בסנהדרין מ"ח סע"ב. שגם בענין שאינו נוגע להלכה ולמעשה כלל. ושאל הגמרא על רב נחמן מנא ידע והיתה התשובה שם. סוד ה' ליראיו וכ':...וכן כל דבריהם ז"ל אשר בגזירות ותיקנות אינם ע"פ שכל אנושי כלל אלא כולם הם ברוח ה' אשר דיבר בם מקול ה' בכח קול גדול ולא יסף דמתן תורה והקול הזה היה ממשמש והולך בכל מייסדי התורה שבע"פ. כה תדברו אל בני ישראל וכה תאמרו לבני ישראל. והם כולם גזירות העליון ב"ה אשר האיר ונתגלה לנו ע"י קדושת תורתם וחכמתם והם רק כשלוחים בדבר זה לומר להם כזאת וכזאת עשו ( וכמדוה לי שראיתי כ"ז בשל"ה) וזו היא סברת בה"ג מה שכולל המצות דרבנן עם דאורייתא כי כולם ניתנו מרועה אחד כמ"ש בחגיגה (ג:) . וע' בדברי הגר"א בספד"צ פ"ה בסוף דמ"מ תליסר:

והרי נמצא מזה כי כל המתחכם על דבריהם להתבונן על אמיתתם הוא מכנסי את עצמו בסכנה גדולה כי אין שכל אנושי אפשר להשיג אותם ועלול הוא לבוא לכפירה רחמ"ל ועל זה נאמר קהלת (ז:טז) ואל תתחכם יותר למה תשומם. כי המכניס עצמו בזה קשה לו מאד להלוך נגד דעתו והוא פוסח תמיד על שתי הסעיפים. ולכן אמרו עבו"ז (יז.) כי על כל דרכי מינות ואפיקורסות הנה על זה נאמר כל באיה לא ישובון ואם ישובו לא ישיגו ארחות חיים. אבל וצדיק באמונתו יחיה כי הוא יסוד כל התורה כולו:

Non-Jewish prostitutes - how serious a sin?

shoshi asked:

Someone who spent more than 10 years learning in a kollel told me that "there is no issur mideoraita to have sexual intercourse with a non-jewish woman, as long as no one sees it"

He says that only Rambam says that there is an issur mideoraita, but if you do not accept rambam, you can go with non-jewish prostitutes as a religious jew and you do not infringe halacha, except perhaps miderabbanan.

Can you confirm this opinion?
If not: what are the sources?
================
This question can be understood in a number of different ways. 1) Is there an explicit Torah prohibition against relations with a non-Jewish prostitute. 2) Does G-d care if a Jew has sexual relations with a non-Jewish prostitute 3) Which is worse sexual relations with a unmarried Jewish woman who is a nidah or with a non-Jewish woman. 4) Since there is an explicit rabbinic prohibition about relations with a non-Jewish woman doesn't that imply that there is no Torah prohibition? 5)Is the severity of G-d's disapproval proportional to the punishment for a particular act? 6) If a person has an overwhelming sexual lust which is the way he can minimize the spiritual damage? 7) Is Judaism amenable to a bean counting approach or are there metarules that are more important? 8) Does someone have to be concerned with a prohibition which is only rabbinic i.e., man made or is enough to be meticulous in observing the word of G-d i.e., Torah. [TO BE CONTINUED]

Breslov - Rav Nachman's burial place dispute

Jewish Chronicle reports:

Visitors driving into Jerusalem these days will not infrequently be accosted at major crossroads by young men in Chasidic garb offering them books and CDs of the teachings of their Rebbe, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, among the most colourful and controversial figures in the 250 years of Chasidism. These enthusiasts are known as the Na-Nach-Nachman Chasidim, a sobriquet they received from Rabbi Yisrael Odessa who claimed to have received not only a visit from Rabbi Nachman, but also a small note bearing this enigmatic phrase. All over Israel the stuttered name now appears on walls, in public spaces, or is utilised as a car sticker.

But the Na-Nach-Nachainites don't stop at publicising their Rebbe's spiritual heritage. They want to transfer his physical remains from their location in the Ukraine to Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

"There is no reason why the remains of Rabbi Nachman should not be moved to Eretz Israel," said Sharone Tel-Tsur, president of the World Council for Rabbi Nachman of Breslov in the Land of Israel.

"What use is it having him buried in Uman?" Sharone's assistant, Nadav Etlinger adds: "Ukraine is one of the world centres of prostitution. It is not a seemly place for those who visit the grave on Rosh Hashanah."

Rabbi Nachman (1772 -1810), great-grandson of the Ba'al Shem Tov - founder of the modern Chasidic movement - led a tempestuous life, moving from place to place, including a perilous journey to Eretz Israel and finally, weakened by tuberculosis and shattered by the death of his children, reached Uman, a small city in Ukraine, where he declared "Dor is gut tzu leigen," "Here is a good place to die."

His followers took this to mean that his burial place was permanent. There were two pogroms here, the Rebbe had explained, in 1749 and 1768, which had left behind upwards of 20,000 martyrs, mainly, in his words, of "simple Jews."

Rabbi Nachman felt obliged to "rectify" these souls. In addition, he said, Uman was a centre of the nascent Haskalah (Enlightenment) movement. The souls of those caught in this trap also needed "rectification".

Since Rabbi Nachman's demise, the Uman site has attracted many pilgrims, even when reaching it (during the Soviet regime, for example) was dangerous. But about 15 years ago, the Na-Nach-Nachman group, led by Rabbi Odessa, began campaigning to bring the Rebbe to the Holy Land. According to Rabbi Chaim Kramer, of the Breslov Research Centre: "This group is very small,"

His colleague, Rabbi Natan Maimon (deputy president of the World Breslov Centre), states: "Ninety-eight per cent of the Breslov community are against moving the Rebbe's remains."

Despite these denials, statements of support for the move have come from Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, the late President Chaim Herzog, the first Prime Minister of Independent Ukraine, Leonid Krachuk, Ehud Olmert, and Shimon Peres. Ariel Sharon signed a permit for the group to acquire 15 dunam of land on Har Zion for the purpose of the new grave site.

This last document was also signed by Rabbi Yechiel Dorfman, chairman of the World Council of Breslov Chasidim, who died two years ago, aged 96, and considered a major force in the old guard of the Breslov community: he was initially opposed to moving the grave for all the traditional reasons. "The reason he changed his mind," explains Sharone, "is that he was disturbed by what was going on in Uman itself."[...]

Eternal Jewish Family - What are they doing these days?

Guest Post:Recipients and Publicity comment to "EJFamily - Solving intermarriage through conversio...": Latest EJF article/press release announces European initiative. Raises more questions about EJF.

The Jewish Press
Friday, September 19, 2008,
Page 72.
Travel.

European Rabbonin To Join Worldwide Efforts On Universally Accepted Geirus

(Photo: [Caption reads:] Eternal Jewish Family and Council of European Rabbis meet in London. Sitting: Dayan Chanoch Ehrentrau, chairman of the Council of European Rabbis. Standing (L-R): Rabbi Yom Tov Stern, Halachic Committee of EJF, Israel; Rabbi Aba Dunner, executive director of the CER; Menachem Lubinsky, consultant to EJF; Rabbi Leib Tropper, rosh yeshiva, Kol Yaakov/Horizons and Chairman of the International Rabbinic Board of EJF; Dayan Menachem Gelley, UK; Rabbi Moshe Lebel, rosh yeshiva, Moscow: and Yisrael Friedamn, consultant to Eternal Jewish Family International.)

Leaders of the Eternal Jewish Family and Council of European Rabbis met recently in London to discuss plans for a joint effort to promote universally accepted standards in intermarriage. Amongst the issues discussed was the establishment of batei din in several cities in Europe as well as a kollel that would focus on the halachos of geirus.

The participants at the meeting were from three continents: Dayan Chanoch Ehrentrau, who heads the Council of European Rabbis, Dayan Menachem Gelley, Rabbi Aba Dunner from the UK and Rabbi Moshe Lebel (rosh yeshiva, Moscow) who represented the CER; Rabbi Leib Tropper and Menachem Lubinsky (USA); Rabbi Yom Tov Stern, and Yisrael Friedman (Israel), who represented the Eternal Jewish Family International.

“The meeting took place at an important juncture in Jewish history,” said Rabbi Tropper, rosh yeshiva of Kol Yaakov/Horizons, who heads the international rabbinic committee of EJF. “Thanks to the efforts of the EJF, a serious effort is being made to stem the problematic conversions that brought tragedy to countless families in many communities throughout the world. Europe’s changing Jewish landscape is the ideal backdrop for an historic partnership between the EJF and CER.”

The Eternal Jewish Family enjoys the overwhelming support of gedolei Yisroel throughout the world. EJF is responsible for espousing the halachic standards defined by leading Torah scholars of past generations and by such luminaries as the late HaRav Moshe Feinstein, zt”l, and by the posek hador Harav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, shlita. HaRav Reuven Feinstein, rosh yeshiva of the Mesivta of Staten Island serves as the Chairman of the EJF Halachic Committee.

The Eternal Jewish family is a project of Horizons, an internationally recognized institute of Jewish education and outreach based in Monsey, New York. Its mission is to assist those who choose to live their lives as part of a Jewish family in accordance with authentic Jewish values, including intermarried couples"."

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Critique by Recipinets and Publicity (RaP):

"Travel."

RaP: Odd place to put an important announcement concerning batei din and conversions.

"European Rabbonin To Join Worldwide Efforts On Universally Accepted Geirus"

RaP: Not quite. There was ONE meeting held in London with THREE English rabbis and ONE unknown rabbi from Russia (that makes it a total of four rabbis vs EJF's four representatives, only one [Rabbi Tropper] or two being known rabbis). The three English rabbis and ythe one rabbi from Russia are not quoted nor are their views expressed in this press release, and this does not translate into a sweeping number of "European Rabbonim" and it does not imply a mandate of any sort for EJF or anyone for that matter to do anything in Europe.

"(Photo: [Caption reads:] Eternal Jewish Family and Council of European Rabbis meet in London. Sitting: Dayan Chanoch Ehrentrau, chairman of the Council of European Rabbis. Standing (L-R): Rabbi Yom Tov Stern, Halachic Committee of EJF, Israel; Rabbi Aba Dunner, executive director of the CER; Menachem Lubinsky, consultant to EJF; Rabbi Leib Tropper, rosh yeshiva, Kol Yaakov/Horizons and Chairman of the International Rabbinic Board of EJF; Dayan Menachem Gelley, UK; Rabbi Moshe Lebel, rosh yeshiva, Moscow: and Yisrael Friedamn, consultant to Eternal Jewish Family International.)"

RaP: Who is "Rabbi Yom Tov Stern, Halachic Committee of EJF, Israel"? and why does "Menachem Lubinsky, consultant to EJF" get to be with notable English dayanim when he is neither a posek nor a rov, just a well-paid PR man?

"Yisrael Friedamn, consultant to Eternal Jewish Family International"

RaP: Who is "Yisrael Friedman" exactly and what kind of "consulting" does he do for "EJF International"? -- Oh and how is "EJF" different to "EJF INTERNATIONAL"?

"Leaders of the Eternal Jewish Family and Council of European Rabbis met recently in London to discuss plans for a joint effort to promote universally accepted standards in intermarriage."

RaP: It should say "REPRESENTATIVES of Council of European Rabbis" because the EJF did not meet with all or even with most of the Council of European rabbis. It is highly ambiguous and dangerous to say that they discussed "plans for a joint effort to promote universally accepted standards in intermarriage" because supposedly they were NOT there to promote standards for "intermarriage" but rather it should have said "to promote universally accepted standards in CONVERSION." Big difference betweeen "intermarriage" and "conversion"!

"Amongst the issues discussed was the establishment of batei din in several cities in Europe as well as a kollel that would focus on the halachos of geirus."

RaP: What about existing batei din headed by the European rabbis? Are they willing and able to co-exist with new batei din that will deal with conversions? If not, can machlokes and chaos be avoided since the old ones also presumably deal with conversions on a regular basis? And simply, why are new batei din needed, what's wrong with the old established and respected ones?

"The participants at the meeting were from three continents:"

RaP: This is pure over-dramatization, a Rabbi Tropper specialty for those who know him, and it's uncalled for here. It was a nice photo op to discuss a few possible ideas by a small group of rabbis. Rabbis Tropper, and his three companions, Menachem Lubinsky, Yom Tov Stern and Yisrael Friedman, as well as the Rabbi Lebel from Russia, presumably got an all-expenses-paid-for ride to London to talk to Rabbi Ehrentrau. This was not a massive Earth-shattering gathering to say the least.

"Dayan Chanoch Ehrentrau, who heads the Council of European Rabbis, Dayan Menachem Gelley, Rabbi Aba Dunner from the UK and Rabbi Moshe Lebel (rosh yeshiva, Moscow) who represented the CER;"

RaP: It would have been nice to hear what they had to say and what they plan to do. Unfortunately they are not quoted in this article/press release and all we have to go by is a nice picture of the rabbis and laymen together. One assumes that since this European initiative effects THEIR interests that the European rabbis' statements and views about the meeting and its prospects would be forthcoming. Well, it is not to be found in this article/press release.

"Rabbi Leib Tropper and Menachem Lubinsky (USA); Rabbi Yom Tov Stern, and Yisrael Friedman (Israel), who represented the Eternal Jewish Family International."

RaP: Again, PRECISELY WHY was it necessary to have someone like Menachem Lubinsky there? He is known to offer his services on a professional paid basis only. If this is an important matter that concerns the fate of Klal Yisroel, it does not need the help of professional PR men. And who PRECISELY are "Rabbi Yom Tov Stern, and Yisrael Friedman (Israel)"? Has anyone heard of them and has their role been explained to anyone outside of EJF? They are working on matters that effect the Klal so they need to explain who they are and what they do to help the Klal, just as EJF seems to feel it must issue articles and press releases to the Jewish Press (and by the way did the YATED and MODIAH in the USA turn down this type of press release from EJF and if so why?)

" 'The meeting took place at an important juncture in Jewish history,' said Rabbi Tropper, rosh yeshiva of Kol Yaakov/Horizons, who heads the international rabbinic committee of EJF. 'Thanks to the efforts of the EJF, a serious effort is being made to stem the problematic conversions that brought tragedy to countless families in many communities throughout the world. Europe’s changing Jewish landscape is the ideal backdrop for an historic partnership between the EJF and CER.' "

RaP: Hmm, all very dramatic sounding, but again, this was only a meeting between a handful of rabbis and it does not merit "historic" and "momentous" contexts. Everyone knows that assimilation and intermarriage and fake conversions are destroying the Jewish people nowadays, it's been known as the "Silent HOLOCAUST" long before Rabbi Tropper and dreamt up the EJF, and that NO Orthodox rabbis are happy about assimilation, conversion and fake conversions, and everyone in responsible rabbinic life would like to do something to stop it (but it is such an overwhelming job, who are we kidding), so there is nothing new here to get hysterical and hyped up about. But that is the way Rabbi Tropper tends to express himself. By the way, the talk about "the problematic conversions that brought tragedy to countless families in many communities throughout the world" is way overdone because the only ones who think it's a tragedy are the Charedim and most of the Orthodox rabbinate, but as far as the over 90% of the Jewish people who are either secular and not Orthodox they don't think any "tragedies" are taking place. So Rabbi Tropper is preaching to the converted in the Jewish Press.

"The Eternal Jewish Family enjoys the overwhelming support of gedolei Yisroel throughout the world."

RaP: Does it? What about the open declaration of the BADATS against it sending letters to many rabbinic Recipients and created Publicity against Rabbi Tropper and the EJF (right on this blog) to stop its actions of helping the non-Jewish spouses in intermarriages with getting "MASS PRODUCED" Orthodox conversions.

"EJF is responsible for espousing the halachic standards defined by leading Torah scholars of past generations"

RaP: Is EJF now talking as if it alone has "responsibility" for its chosen task to the exclusion of all others? Seems like Rabbi Tropper and EJF are playing that old "corner the market" game with people caught in intermarriages who need conversions for their non-Jewish spouses, a very odd desire yet very reflectyive of the sad state of advanced intermarriage many Jewish familis find themselves in.

"and by such luminaries as the late HaRav Moshe Feinstein, zt”l, and by the posek hador Harav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, shlita."

RaP: This is an old issue: How can EJF claim retroactive support for itself from the long deceased Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ztk"l when he neither heard about EJF nor was involved with nor supported such things in his lifetime?

"HaRav Reuven Feinstein, rosh yeshiva of the Mesivta of Staten Island serves as the Chairman of the EJF Halachic Committee."

RaP: Also an old question: What has Rabbi Reuven Feinstein stated in writing to support his open support for EJF beyond showing up at their events and agreeing to be photographed with Rabbi Tropper upon demand?

"The Eternal Jewish family is a project of Horizons,"

RaP: Whoa, wait a minute, what happened to the "Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation"? Wasn't EJF a project of that? Now it's a project of "Horizons" -- what gives?

"The Eternal Jewish family is a project of Horizons, an internationally recognized institute of Jewish education and outreach based in Monsey, New York.

RaP: This is confusing. Is the subject EJF or Horizons? EJF's mission is to help intermarried couples get an Orthodox conversion for the non-Jewish spouse, right? And Horizons has always been used by Rabbi Tropper as the name for himself and his Kol Yaakov Yeshiva when he goes out to lecture on campuses or they send some bochurim from Kol Yaakov to out of town places for Shabbatons and SEED programs, that is usually the work of Horizons, nothing to do with intermarried couples and getting some of them conversions. So now there is some confusion with this wording here. In any case, Horizons is not that big and it is an exaggeration to claim: "Horizons, an internationally recognized institute of Jewish education and outreach" when it is not such a huge undertaking at all. Aish HaTorah and Chabad have 100% credibility and are being truthful when they claim "International" status but certainly not Rabbi Tropper's miniature by comparison Horizons effort.

"Its mission is to assist those who choose to live their lives as part of a Jewish family in accordance with authentic Jewish values, including intermarried couples"."

RaP: Who, what, when, why, how????? Again, is the subject Horizons or EJF or have they beceome one and the same? If so then Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov Yeshiva should be part of it because until now Rabbi Tropper has thrust Kol Yaakov and twinned it with Horizons yet now we are told that it is EJF that is twinneed with Horizons, so that by following a simple rule of logic and reality: if "a" (Kol Yaakov yeshiva) = "b" (Horizons outreach); and "b" (Horizons outreach) = "c" (Eternal Jewish Family); then "a" (Kol Yaakov yeshiva) = "c" (Eternal Jewish Family) and hence Kol Yaakov must be regarded as a YESHIVA FOR GEIRIM (the first in the world?) The question of what happened to the SECULAR oriented Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation in the old days when Rabbi Tropper told the world that EJF was a project of the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation remains unanswred, according to this press release at any rate, so that the equation there was no less troubling when: "a" (Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation) = "b" (Eternal Jewish Family); and "b" (Eternal Jewish Family) = "c" (Horizons outreach); so that "a" (Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation) = "c" (Horizons outreach) meaning that Horzons was in the pocket of the secular Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation and not in that of the Yeshiva Kol Yaakov as was claimed. These are just some of the many loose ends and conundrums that this article/press release causes by creating more questions about itself than delivering real answers about what is really going on here with Rabbi Leib Tropper/Yeshiva Kol Yaakov/Horizons/EJF/Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation????? And oh, has anyone seen boss-man Dr. Tom Kaplan, and his family lately, some of whom had originally needed conversions that inspired this whole effort, and where he fits into the greater scheme of things here?