Do talmidei chachomim really insult and belittle each other?

I just received this letter which raises an important issue - the negative actions and comments which talmidei chachomim make about each other. It is a timely issue since during sefira Rabbi Akiva lost 24 thousand students because they did not treat each other with respect (Yevamos 62b).

There are explanations that try and show that at least the cases in the Talmud are not what they seem (Chavis Yair). That it wasn't that they insulted each other but they weren't as respectful as they should have been - and they are just judged more severely than others. However there is another approach which understands them as negative as they seem but tries to explain the purpose of the negativity.

Lichvod HaRav shlit"a

... I write to you because your Daas Torah volume is gevaldig and I have given it as a gift to numerous people. So I felt I could write to you and maybe get some directions or Mareh Mekomos.

I say some shiurim to yungerleit and one of the issues that has come up a number of times is קינטורים of the Chachomim in the Gemora. eg. at the end of Beitzah where they laughed at Rabbi Abba and many other places in Shass.

Besides for the Teshuvos Chavos Yair that the Chofetz Chaim brings at the end of the Sefer is there someone who discusses the issues at length that I could learn?

...

BeHokoroh VeRagshei Kovod

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The simple answer is that Torah learning is based on an adversarial system which involves not only proving that others are wrong but is motivated in part by jealousy and showing that others are not as good or learned or righteous as they seem. [See Berachos (27b) where the Sages are described as warriors. Rashi says that is because they try to defeat each other in halachic discussion.] Furthermore Yuma (86b) says it is a mitzva to publicize the fact that certain talmidei chachomim or tzadikim - are not as big as they appear [publicizing hypocrites]- as can be seen from the sources below.

Berachos (28b) describes a prayer before learning "Our Rabbis taught: On entering what does a man say? ‘May it be Thy will, O Lord my God, that no offence may occur through me, and that I may not err in a matter of halachah and that my colleagues may rejoice in me and that I may not call unclean clean or clean unclean, and that my colleagues may not err in a matter of halachah and that I may rejoice in them’." Rashi says that the issue of rejoicing in the mistakes of others is meant literally. [You also might want to read the Seridei Aish's letters which were published by Dr. Marc Shapiro in Torah uMadda Journal ]

In fact the present Bostoner Rebbe told me that this is one of the differences between the Torah learning of Litvaks and Chassidim and why Litvaks are generally better scholars. When Litvaks learn Torah -  they learn primarily to determine what is truth. As a result the discussions get heated and each one tries with all his ability to show he is correct and the other is wrong. In contrast Chassidim learn primarily for the sake of the mitzva of Torah learning - to understand what the seforim say -  and there is much less heat and emotion.

יבמות סב: אמרו: שנים עשר אלף זוגים תלמידים היו לו לרבי עקיבא, מגבת עד אנטיפרס, וכולן מתו בפרק אחד מפני שלא נהגו כבוד זה לזה, והיה העולם שמם, עד שבא ר"ע אצל רבותינו שבדרום, ושנאה להם ר"מ ור' יהודה ור' יוסי ורבי שמעון ורבי אלעזר בן שמוע, והם הם העמידו תורה אותה שעה. תנא: כולם מתו מפסח ועד עצרת. אמר רב חמא בר אבא, ואיתימא ר' חייא בר אבין: כולם מתו מיתה רעה. מאי היא? א"ר נחמן: אסכרה.

מהרש"א חידושי אגדות (יבמות סב:) מפני שלא נהגו כבוד זה לזה כו' ולא חש כ"א מהם על כבוד תורה של חבירו דאין כבוד אלא תורה ולכך מתו במדה זו כי היא חייך גו' ואמרו שמתו במיתת אסכרה דאפשר דכ"א דיבר לשון הרע והיה מספר בגנות חבירו וסימן ללשון הרע אסכרה כדאמרינן פרק ב"מ ואמר שמתו בין פסח לעצרת להורות שמתו בהשגחה כי הוא הזמן ממוצע לבריאות וקרוב לרפואה כדאמרינן בשבת כל שקייני טבא בין דיבחא לעצרתא וק"ל:

במדרש רבה (קהלת י"א, ו') איתא שאמר לשבעת תלמידיו החדשים "הראשונים לא מתו אלא מפני שהיתה עיניהם צרה בתורה זה לזה, אתם לא תהיו כן, מיד עמדו ומלאו כל ארץ ישראל תורה", וטעם זה על כי היו צרי עין נתחדש לו אח"כ

קידושין (ל:): אמר רבי חייא בר אבא: אפי' האב ובנו, הרב ותלמידו, שעוסקין בתורה בשער אחד נעשים אויבים זה את זה, ואינם זזים משם עד שנעשים אוהבים זה את זה, שנאמר: את והב בסופה, אל תקרי בסופה אלא בסופה.

רש"י (קידושין ל:): נעשו אויבים - מתוך שמקשים זה לזה ואין זה מקבל דברי זה.

יומא (פו:): מפרסמין את החנפין מפני חילול השם, שנאמר ובשוב צדיק מצדקו ועשה עול ונתתי מכשול לפניו.

רש"י (יומא פו:): מפרסמין את החנפין - שהן רשעים ומראין עצמן כצדיקים, אם יש מכיר במעשיו מצוה לפרסמו מפני חילול השם, שבני אדם למידין ממעשיו, שסבורין עליו שהוא צדיק, ועוד, כשבא עליו פורענות בני אדם אומרים מה הועיל לו זכותו:

חפץ חיים (באר מים חיים - הלכות רכילות - כלל ט:ב.יז): ויעשה מעשה. שלא אמרו (יומא פו:) מצוה לפרסם את החנפים אלא לענין להזהיר לכתחלה שלא יבוא להתחבר עמו כדי שלא יבוא לידי הפסד, או אפילו אם כבר נתחבר עמו, והוא יודע את טבע האיש שהוא מספר לו שרק יחוש לדיבורו לענין לשמור את עצמו, אבל לא שיסובב לו על ידו היזק ממש ממה שלא היה בא לו אפילו אם היה מעיד עליו בב"ד לבד:

בבא בתרא (כא.): ואמר רבא: האי מקרי ינוקי דגריס, ואיכא אחרינא דגריס טפי מיניה - לא מסלקינן ליה, דלמא אתי לאיתרשולי. רב דימי מנהרדעא אמר: כ"ש דגריס טפי, קנאת סופרים תרבה חכמה.

שו"ע יורה דעה (רמה:יח): אם יש כאן מלמד שמלמד לתינוקות, ובא אחר טוב ממנו, מסלקין הראשון מפני השני.

בבא בתרא (כא:): אמר רב יוסף: ומודי רב הונא במקרי דרדקי דלא מצי מעכב, דאמר מר: (עזרא תיקן להן לישראל שיהו מושיבין סופר בצד סופר. וניחוש דילמא אתי לאיתרשולי. א"ל:) קנאת סופרים תרבה חכמה.

רש"י (ברכות כז:) בעלי תריסין - חכמים המנצחים זה את זה בהלכה 

רש"י (ברכות כח:): ולא אכשל - וישמחו חברי על כשלוני, הרי רעות שתים, שיבאו על ידי שאגרום להם שיענשו.
outdash2
 

Rav Moshe Feinstein: Honoring Conservative & Reform "Rabbis" with an aliyah?

This teshuva is relevant to the recent discussion of Rav Moshe's teshuvos regarding homosexuality which some claimed did not follow the classic Jewish understanding. The following teshuva dealing with the validty of a beracha was criticized in a similar fashion by the Consevative movement.  Amen and Amen: Blessings of a Heretic - like me  

 This fits in with my definition of a gadol, "One whose authority transcends his footnotes." or as Rav Rottenberg of Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim (a close talmid of Rav Moshe) told me, "Some say that Rav Moshe poskened directly from the gemora - I think he poskened from Heaven!"
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Igros Moshe (O. C. 3:21): The issue of honoring heretics - in situations of need – by calling them to the Torah and other honors that are given out in the synagogue. Question: When "rabbis" of the Reform and Conservative movements occasionally come Shabbos to a shul of fully observant Jews, is it correct to give these "rabbis" an aliyah to the Torah? Answer: It is an elementary matter that it is inherently prohibited for these "rabbis" to be called up to the Torah. That is because each aliyah requires a beracha prior to the Torah reading and then a beracha after the reading- and the berachos of these "rabbis" are totally worthless and in fact one should not say amen after them. I have written in my sefer Igros Moshe (O.C. 2:50-51) that since these "rabbis" are heretics – when they mention G-d's name it has no special significance and thus the beracha is being said without shem and malchus at all. Consequently even though the Torah is being read by the reader and the congregation hears the Torah reading – nevertheless it is like a Torah reading without beracha. Reading with a worthless beracha is worse then the situation that existed prior to the institution of saying a beracha before and after each Torah reading. That is because after the decree for each Torah reading to have its own berachos - the beracha prior to the first aliyah no longer applies to subsequent aliyos because the the beracha after his aliyah has been said. Regarding other holy synagogue honors which don't require a beracha and are therefore not inherently prohibited - such as lifting up the Torah (hagba), rolling the Torah up (gelila), talking the Torah out (hotzah), putting it back (hachnasa), opening the ark (pesicha), closing the ark (segira) - nonetheless they should still not be given to heretics and these "rabbis" are heretics. In fact giving them these honors transgresses the prohibition of hypocrisy and flattery (chanifa). Consequently it is not fitting to give them these types of honors - as I have written in Igros Moshe (O.C. 2:51) - and unless there is great need it is prohibited to give them these types of honors. However if there is a great need to honor them – such as the concern that this will lead to disputes in the community and there is concern that there will be loss of funding for tzedaka – then there is a basis to permit the holy honors which don't require a beracha. But they should not get an aliya as I have explained. Regarding non-observant Jews who are not heretics, there is no inherent prohibition of giving them an aliya since they believe in G-d and his Torah but they transgress the Torah from lust – and one should answer amen after their berachos. Nevertheless it is clear that it is not nice to give them an aliyah because that is honoring sinners and therefore one should refrain from this unless there is some need such as a yahrtzeit which there would be concern for disputes or other comparable problems. In contrast these "rabbis" who are actual heretics and transgress the Torah out of spite and they try persuading others to go in their wrong path - their berachos are worthless and it is inherently prohibited to give them an aliyah as I said before.

“being frum or normal”? comments

 Hi Reb Daniel,

Hope you are well.

Re “being frum or normal”?

I wanted to share 3 things about Rav Yaakov ZTL (to our generation no last name is needed).

Two are first hand and one heard directly from the person who spoke to RY.

… I attended the chasuna of a close friend, grandson of RY.  (You may know R  from Midreshet Rachel?)

As I’m sure you know RY was opposed to mechitzas at chasunas.

In deference to that, there was no mechitzah.

There was a circle of men and a circle of women.  The distance between them was not huge.

It is etched in my memory seeing RY watching the dancing with a huge smile on his face.

As I believe you said, RY obviously held that not every situation that may bring  a challenge must be avoided or banned.

… I personally asked RY if you may accept the hand of a women who extends it in order to avoid embarrassing her.

He did not know me personally and I did not mention that I am in kiruv.

His exact words were , “mitstama mir ken meykel, as zis nor a derech eretz.”

Same principle, I believe.

… I heard directly from a chashuv yungerman in Lakewood (he sadly was niftar and I may the only person that knows this first hand).

He asked RY if it is appropriate for  yungerleit to ride bicycles.

He answered, “Absolutely, they need to get exercise.”

And , without being asked, RY went on to say, “the wives should also ride, they also need exercise”.

When the yungerman asked him about tznius?

RY responded, “that’s why they have different bikes for women”.

Same principle.

All the best,

M K

By the way, I often use your Yad Moshe.  

I actually want the content publicized as I think it’s a mitzva to preserve these things for posterity, especially given the direction of our Torah world.

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Reb Yaakov himself rode a bike in camp until he was in his 70's because of concern that a fall could lead to broken bones - DT

A Gene-Hacked Pig Kidney Has Worked in a Brain Dead Human for a Month

 https://www.thedailybeast.com/a-gene-hacked-pig-kidney-has-worked-in-a-brain-dead-human-for-a-month?ref=home

A genetically engineered pig kidney transplanted into a brain dead man continues to function after 32 days—marking the longest time such a kidney has worked in a human being and another milestone in the emerging field of xenotransplantation (the transplanting of organs from one species to another).

A psychologist's role in religious change - is there one?

Case 1

Chassidim view that the rebbe's views are true and are based on ruach hakodesh. A chasid comes to a therapist and says he is unhappy, his wife is unhappy and so are his kids. He is following the views of his rebbe and his wife and children try their best to follow the guidelines of the rebbe. He has gone a number of times to the rebbe for guidance, but the rebbe says that his suffering is because of his yetzer harah and he just needs to try harder. However the chasid reports having no sense of fulfillment, spiritual accomplishment, emotional connection. There is no shalom bayis and the kids are depressed. There is no evidence of psychological problems being the cause of these complaints. The chasid reports serious doubts about the validity of his chassidus after he had a serious of discussions with friends who are Litvaks and different types of Chassidim. He yearns for intellectual independence and psychological space from the community and in particular the rebbe who he does not respect. He feels that he is trapped playing a role that for him is phony and hypocritical. He feels energized by immersing in different views and trying to clarify his own views of hashkofa. The therapist concludes that the problem is that the chasid and his families psychological and emotional needs are not met by this particular chassidus.

Case 2

A Litvak from a long line of Litvaks has it made and is the envy of his friends. He has mastered Shas, is a successful rebbe in a major New York yeshiva high school. Married the daughter of a well-known gadol who is a successful teacher in a seminary and a popular speaker. They have 5 kids who are doing well in yeshiva/Beis Yaakov. They have no health or financial worries. However collectively they are report that religion has become a culture and that they find nothing meaningful in what they do. While they are perceived as role models, they feel emptiness both spiritually and psychologically. Over the last year they have found a great attraction to Chassidus because of a couple they met Pesach at a hotel. He now yearns for the spiritual certainty and vibrancy he sees in chassidus – something that surprises him because he was raised to have disdain for Chassidus and rebbes. He feels a need to be a part of a community and to be able to be given guidance by a rebbe. The independence that a Litvak treasures, he views as alienation and distance from G‑d.

Case 3

The 17 year of daughter of a gadol finds it unpleasant living up to everyone's expectations of how a gadol's daughter should be. She would like a career which requires a college education. She wants to marry someone who is frum – but not a Torah genius who will spend the rest of his life learning 18 hours a day. She wants a husband who is a friend that she can relax with – not a revered figure that she must sacrifice her own needs to support and tend to. In short she does not want to be a rebbetzin who is married to the Chofetz Chaim – which is what her family expects of her. She really wants to have a comfortable existence and not the life of poverty that she grew up with sharing a 4 room apartment with her parents and 10 siblings. She came to the therapist because of migraine headaches, periodic bouts of depression and has recently started to cut herself (though she hasn't told her parents).

These cases are not really psychological problems but the result of a mismatch between the nature of the person and religious identity. Is it appropriate for a therapist to suggest a major religious change? If so how should he go about presenting the idea?

How to explain Torah & Psychology to kiruv rabbis?

I was recently asked by a major kiruv organization if I would be willing to write a 20-30 page pamphlet dealing with Psychology - for kiruv rabbis. This is an important issue - but it is complex. It requires discussing not only psychological theories but their correlates in Torah, explaining among other things - the scientific method, positivism, empiricism, reality, validity and statistics. I need to document all my assertions.

We have talked about using Torah values to guide and provide boundaries in the use of psychology - but this has to be condensed into a page or two. My concern also is that these kiruv rabbis really don't have a decent secular background to understand the subject properly. Nor are they likely to have a broad enough understanding of Torah dynamics and halacha.

If you are in kiruv or are a congregational rabbi -  what issues are important to you or are causing you problems. If you refer people to psychologists - let me know about the difficulties you have experienced.

A young man asks, "What qualities to look for in a wife?"

Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,

How are you?

As you know, I am looking for a wife these days.  I also have a keen interest in avoiding the kind of terrible situations you have blogged about recently where husband and wife become estranged and enemies.  Do you have advice for avoiding this outcome?  Do you believe it's avoidable (in some cases, most cases, all cases)?  What is your advice both for during the marriage and also proactive steps that can be taken beforehand in the process itself of seeking a wife.   Ie, are there particular traits or attitudes to be wary of, how to discern them in the prospective partner, etc.  Or a certain dynamic between the two people that will more likely lead to these problems later on? 

On the subject of how to achieve a fulfilling a relationship, I enjoyed the TED video you posted.  Granted it was a short talk, but I don't think she ever gave an actual suggestion or a solution for how "erotic couples" as she termed it (sexually and emotionally fulfilled) strike the balance between love and desire (reliability / mystery, responsibility/ freedom, etc).   The first thought that entered my mind was that the laws of nidda would be conducive to rekindling the desire through distance and separation as she described in the healthy couples and when they most desire their spouse (when they're away).   But yet we see, as you stated, these problems exist also in the Orthodox community.  So it must be more than that.  What would you say is the missing link here that is causing it to not work in the frum world?

What resources would you suggest for learning more about this subject as I aim to build a positive relationship that will succeed?

On one last point, I didn't quite understand why you cited that particular psak of Rav Moshe because it sounded like he only permitted this type of learning in the few days before the marriage for groom-to-be (because at other times it could lead to fantasies when we are not supposed to be preoccupied with those thoughts).   But by posting the video I would think you encourage this learning at any time to understand how a relationship should work. For example, I wouldn't need to wait until 3 days before marriage to view the TED talk.  It seems you take a more liberal view than Rav Moshe based on your professional experience.  Or am I not interpreting the cited psak correctly?

Thanks,

=========================

Dear ....,

You are asking an important question - which doesn't have a clear cut answer. Let me answer you last point first. Rav Moshe Feinstein's teshuva that I cited is referring to specific information regarding physical relations between husband and wife. In contrast the TED talk is talking about the psychological dynamics involved. I don't see any reason to assume a disagreement. If talking about marriage and marriage issues is problematic - then you would need to prevent the learning of Kiddushin and Kesubos and other gemoras until after marriage.

update: Regarding your main question. Start studying Igros Moshe (Y.D. I. #90).

[to be continued]

Weiss Dodelson: Divorce settlement required the Weiss's to ask me to take down blog posts

Just received the following letter which I will discuss with a number of talmidei chachomim before deciding what to do. Would appreciate reader feedback also. 

I am not sure why the Dodelson's required Rabbi Weiss to ask me - the Dodelson's could have asked themselves.  I assume that indicates that the Dodelson's think that I am an agent of the Weiss Family just as Shira Dicker was an agent of the Dodelson's. 

It simply isn't true. In fact my concern was to present both sides - not to force the Dodelson's to concede defeat - as Shira Dicker tried to do to the Weiss Family. I sincerely tried to present the Dodelson's viewpoint - including having guest posts from their supporters and posting their supporters comments.

==========================================

Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,

Our family greatly appreciates your standing up for Torah, halachah and your convictions in supporting Avrohom Meir Weiss and our family throughout these past many months.

We are very well aware that you are completely independent from our family, and that you took up this cause on on your own, as a matter of conscience.

However, as a preclude to the get, the two parties entered into a mutual consent order, and we committed to request that you remove any references to this dispute from your website.

We respectfully request that you do so.

Thank you,

Yisroel Weiss

Problems are inherent when using mussar or agada as halacha

 Dr. Benny Brown wrote:

... rules are standards that determine the normative status of concrete actions, while principles determine goals that the actions are supposed to achieve.15 A person cannot perform two conflicting actions, but he can undertake different goals that may be found in conflict in particular circumstances, and nevertheless not forego any of them. These goals may be more abstract (such as ‘‘justice’’) or less abstract (such as that ‘‘no man may profit from his own wrong’’).

Yeshayahu Tishbi and Joseph Dan wrote similarly regarding the relationship between halakhah and musar: ‘‘The halakhah cuts to the minimum that the servant of God is required to do in order to fulfill his obligation to his Creator [...] The musar literature seeks not the minimum, but the maximum – the path by which man will reach the zenith of religious life, of approaching and clinging to God.’’21

Maharal (Be’er HaGolah #6): One does not always accept the literal meaning of Agada as our Sages said, “that one does not resolve apparent contradictions in Agada.” That is because it is possible that the idea of the Agada was said in a concealed manner. Therefore, there is no need to ask or resolve contradictions in Agada since by apparently clarifying one Agada a contradiction to a different Agada can be created. It is possible that the original problem was not a problem to those who understand their esoteric nature. In contrast, Halacha cannot be utilized without resolving all apparent contradictions and inconsistencies. Agada on the other hand was not created for the purpose of learning what is prohibited or permitted and therefore consistency is not required. By attempting to create consistency it is possible that problematic elements will be rejected when in fact there was never a problem in the first place to those who are experts in Agada. That is why the Yerushalmi (Peah 2:4) states that one should not learn Halacha from Agada - since it has not been conceptually clarified by the dialectic process of questions and answers…

Nodah BeYehuda (161): Even though the Yerushalmi (Peah 2:4) equates not learning practical Halacha from Mishna, Tosefta and Agada - the reason is not the same for the three. … Medrash and Agada were composed entirely for the purpose of teaching moral lessons by means of allusions and allegories. Thus, they are the source of theological information but were never intended to be used for Halacha. That is why we do not learn at all from Agada to decide practical Halacha.

 ======================

Consequently problems are created when taking mussar and agada and viewing it as halacha - as we see concerning bein adam l'chavero issues such as lashon harah or tznius.