Jersey Girl said...
Letter written by the renowned Rabbi Chayim Oizer Grodzinski, zt”l of Vilna to Chief Rabbi Dr. Guedemann of Vienna:
English Translation:
Your honour knows that in the matter of the Zionists and the Mizrachi, I am in correspondence with the Gaonim of this generation, and all of them, have decided that Zionism is the work of the Sitro Achro with all its seductions and incitements, for the purpose of turning Israel from the good path and, that a great danger arises from it for all the Congregation of the Exile—Heaven forbid—and that all those who venture to defend the Zionists, are no better than they."
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You are confusing me Jersey Girl. On the one hand you bring in a source in order to prove that the State of Israel is a product of the sitra achra. This is the position of the Badatz Eidat Hachereidit.
They believe that zero participation with the state is permissible for Torah Yidden. This also precludes being a member of the state run and funded rabbinate. It is a perfectly valid shitta and if that is how you hold that is your entitlement. So why are you questioning my logic in dismantling the rabbinate? Why should you care?
Now while you are trying to figure out which shitta you subscribe to, there are about five or so, let us address the questions that you asked me.
You asked, "If I understand correctly, it seems what you want is an "America" in the Middle East; that is, not a Jewish State but a State for Jews. It is true that this fulfills the Zionist dream.
But how does a Levantine "America" fit into the overall culture of the ME?"
I wish that all of the Yidden me included will do tshuva and come closer to Hashem's Torah. It is easier to makarve people in an open society then it is when you have placed demands on them and control their personal lives.
By any modern standard the authority of the rabbinate regarding people's personal lives is regarded by the secular here as oppressive and anachronistic. Today's generation has a din of tinnuk sh'b'nishba and they cannot be expected to listen to what the religious have to say hook, line and sinker. All the more so that we should not be surprised that they resent us when we control who they are permitted to marry or divorce. For example in a world that looks down at the cast system India, state legislated discrimination against mamzerim can be viewed outside of the Torah world as oppressive. This in itself is a chillul Hashem.
I am not G-d forbid implying that the rabbi's should change halacha in order to conform to modernity. The Torah is eternal as is Hashem. I am saying that we should run things as we do everywhere else. With independent batei dinim. The most important aspect of these batei dinim is their autonomy to posken on issues as they see proper without political intervention.
You might say that this will lead to intermarriage and mamzerut. Most Israelis who cannot get married through the rabbinate can fly to Cyprus anyway and then use that marriage certificate at the Ministry of interior. Also forcing non religious Jews to marry al pi halacha is a recipe set up for mamzerut.
"But how does a Levantine "America" fit into the overall culture of the ME?"
My answer is that I personally do not care. In a region where life is cheap, minorities are terrorized and, or murdered, honor killings condoned, slaves bought and sold, woman treated like chattels, and parents hating their enemies more than they love their children, I am not so certain that we should be trying to embed ourselves through emulation in order to mesh with our surroundings here. At any rate we are exhorted by the Torah and Chazal not to emulate the behavior of the surrounding neighbors. So your question regarding fitting in to the fabric of the surrounding society is a stillborn one.
Now to address your next question. You asked, "Can a completely secular Western style democracy ever even hope to SURVIVE among theocratic religiously conservative neighbors? (Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Palestine are ruled completely by Islamic law. Lebanon does not permit intermarriages. Religious issues have been at the center of Lebanon's ongoing civil war.)"
First of all over the past sixty years the regimes in these countries at times have barely survive amongst themselves. In many of them their has been violent regime changes and attempts. Nobody has it easy in the middle east. One conclusion that one can make of this though is that to the degree that these countries westernize, the more stable they become (the Ayatolla revolution non - withstanding).
Also Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and especially Syria are not ruled through Sharia. Lebanon is a perfect example to back up my argument on what can happen to a country that was once lauded internationally for its Leviatan spirit because some outdated status quo laws were being upheld by one part of the population. Does the word "status quo agreement" ring a bell?
You asserted, "Muslim leaders often join Haredi leaders in taking a public stance against things that are offensive to both Jews and Muslims(i.e.the Gay Parade in Jerusalem)."
My answer bogus. It only happened once and it was not something that was syncronized. Do not worry, Rav Elyashuv shlita does not have the mufti's personal cell number. It is also kind of ironic that you used that article to prove your point. Could it be that only when the Arabs see us rioting through rock throwing, burning stuff and causing general mayhem that they see in us a sort a kindred spirit? When we act like a bunch of strung out chimpanzees on amphetamines do they then see a reflection of themselves and only then remember that we are the children of Avraham (Ibrahim as they call him)?
Like I said earlier, the Arab culture is something that I wish not to emulate.
You then used an example of issues that we could could become close with. Here is an anonymous writer.
"I recently read this, on a blog posted anonymously:
"It is my view and a part of my belief as a Muslim and a believer in the one true G-d that there are no contradictions in any of the traditions I have read extensively Jewish scripts and Rabbinical opinions and Islamic law and actually find a harmony in the teaching on doctrinal level.
The only differences arise when those who would have us believe they do things in our name respectively are actually pushing a secularist agenda not fulfilling G-d's Will and law.
The war in Palestine is not Judaism versus Islam but, one set of secularist devils against another set of secularist devils who shroud themselves in the faith of their countrymen to abuse their emotions.
And let it be quite clear for all to see that Muslims do not hate Jews who keep God's commandments and fear him."
These sentiments also seem to be reflected in the December open letter from Muslims to Jews:
"As Muslims and Jews we share core doctrinal beliefs,..... laws and jurisprudence, many significant values and even dietary restrictions. There is more in common between our religions and peoples than is known to each of us.
http://www.israelenews.com
I know a lot of Arabs and I find his opinion highly unusual. The only thing that I will agree about with this lone man's assessment is that this is not a war between Judaism and Islam. I would say though that it is a war between Yishmael and the Jews. At any rate he is just one in 375 million Arabs. The person who blew up bus#2 in Jerusalem and the man who murdered the students in Mercaz Harav knew no such respect for Torah Jews. Most Muslim fanatics do not. Again, the only religious Jews that most of these maniacs respect are the ones who are willing to call them master.
As far as I see it, the best way to keep our society strong is through mutual respect for each other. This will help maintain the edge that we have over their (the Arabs) society.