https://dinonline.org/2015/06/18/counting-non-observant-jews-towards-a-minyan/
Since the spies were clearly wicked people, and according to the Sages they were even heretics (claiming that Hashem did not have the power to bring the nation into the Land of Israel), it emerges that even the wicked can form an eidah.
Based on this, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Shut Iggros Moshe Vol. 1, no. 23) writes that the same condition applies to saying Kedushah with a minyan. According to many opinions, the only requirement is that the ten people should be Jewish. There are no further conditions, and even secular Jews, who have no connection to the Torah, can count towards a minyan for Kedushah if they are participating in the prayers.
There's a story i once heard about some Rebbe who wanted a minyan and there were 10 men present but one was a haskalah guy so he quietly sat there waiting for an eleventh. When he was called out by the haskalah guy and told that even the ketoras had foul-smelling chelbanah in it so he should be counted to the minyan, the counter-argument was "Yes, but there were 11 spices in the ketores."
ReplyDeleteHowever, I'm pretty sure the Holocaust ended that elitism.
The Rambam, in a Teshuvah (Pe'er Ha'Dor, #71), writes that Karaites can not be counted for a Minyan, because the need to have a Minyan is a Rabbinic law, which the Karaites don't subscribe to, hence they can't be part of something that they don't believe in. This is not withstanding the fact that the Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) famously referred to the Karaites as a "Tinok Shenishbah". The ramifications of this Teshuva would be that the Rambam would disagree with R' Moshe Feinsteins conclusion.
ReplyDeleteNot sure i would agree with your conclusion. They are two separate cases. The Karaites back then were a religious, observant group, who accepted Torah she biktav, but denied the Oral Law. Today's secular are secular usually because of a lack of religious upbringing, and don't necessarily deny the concept of a minyan. The Rambam's use of Tinok Shenishbah refers to those who are raised in Karaite communities of several generations, and are not actively denying the Oral Law through their own choice. And that, btw, was to ameliorate his earlier comments in mamrim, that you can kill a karaite, with not evidence, no BD, and no psak from a Rav. There's a teshuva, maybe even in the one you cite, where he says it is permitted to visit karaites who are in mourning, and drink their wine. So that would not likely apply to secular Jews who make their own wine. The Rambam is addressing a different category to that of Rav Moshe.
DeleteRav Moshe, zt"l, differentiated between Reformative clergy and the unwashed masses. He said you can't say "amein" to a clergy's blessing but the local am ha'aretz is fine because he's just uneducated.
DeleteI beg to differ. Despite the fact that the Karaites back then were a religious, observant group, who accepted Torah She'Biksav, nevertheless, since they denied the Oral Law, even if it was only due to their erroneous upbringing, the Rambam posits, based on a Gemara, that since they don't intrinsically believe the words of Chazal regarding a Minyan, then they be said to be part of something that they don't truly believe in. [The Ramabm evidently wasn't impressed by the fact that they attended our shul. Since they maintained their opposition to Rabbinic laws, and the word "Minyan" was not in their religious lexicon, they therefore could not be considered as actively contributing to forming something that they didn't truly believe in].
DeletePresumably, ALL THE MORE SO, the same applies to secular Jews, who for the most part deny the divinity of even Torah She'Biksav, and certainly do not consider themselves bound to the laws of the Torah; especially that the Torah mandates us to pray, and that saying Kaddish and Kedusha requires a quorum of ten men. If they ever attend a shul, they might recognize the fact that the concept of "Minyan" is important to religious Jews, but intrinsically, it means nothing to them, personally. I therefore posit that the Rambam's logic holds equally true today, regarding secular Jews. Since they deny the validity of the Torah, they therefore inherently deny the significance of a "Minyan", and can't help form a concept that doesn't truly exist in their eyes.
מקורות: שו"ת הרמב"ם (פאר הדור, סי' עא), וכן הוא בקובץ תשובות הרמב"ם ואגרותיו (לפסיא, ח"א, סי' עח). - ועי' עוד בתשובות הרמב"ם (מהדו' בלאו, ח"ב, סי' רסה).
DeleteNot all secular are atheists. They are often somewhat traditional, will say kaddish, will know what a minyan is etc.
DeleteYou are asking rambam a different question than what he answered
I would suggest it's generational. 2 generations ago secular people did care about Jewish things even though they didn't practice them. All their children got bris milah, they had a seder every year and a mezuzah on their front door and made very sure to show up for yahrzeit to say kaddish.
DeleteToday it's more like you describe it. I saw an article - maybe Tablet, or JTA, describing how secular Jews are today making Shabbos more relevant to them but it has absolutely nothing to do with davening or abstaining from melachah, more like organized hikes and meditation to take a break from the week and call it spirituality.
There's a world of difference between "I know I should be more observant but I'm just not" and "I am observant but I have redefined 'observance' to align with my desires and personal beliefs."
The Karaites weren't atheists either. Like secular Jews today, they didn't believe in the authority of Rabbinic law. As such, the Rambam posited, they can't be included in a process that they don't believe is relevant.
DeleteThere was a case about 20 years ago when Mr Louis Jacobs (Talmid muvchak of r dessler) was at the aufruf of his einekle at an orthodox shul. The chief rabbi of the time rabbi sacks ztl ruled it's assur to give jacobs an Aliya because he would make a bracha levatala on Torat emete, as Jacobs had become conservative.
DeleteNotice that it would be impossible to vet hundreds of laymen for their views or levels of observance.
However, I don't think you can conclude with certainty that the rambam would pasken differently in 1958 than Rav Moshe did.
Rav Moshe Feinstein doesn't address the point that the Rambam raised, which gives me reason to believe he didn't see it. Did you look up my references?
DeleteRav Moshe merely argued, that being a "rasha" doesn't necessarily exclude one from being counted to a minyan.
The Rambam is coming from a totally different angle, and it doesn't hinge on whether or not the person is a "rasha".
According to the Rambam, it depends if the person believes in the binding concept of "minyan" or not.
I can't get into the mind of these great decisors as to why they they reach a certain conclusion. Also, I don't think Rambam would have consulted with his colleagues such as the ravad. The method of modern psak is different from in the time of the rambam
DeleteNo shulchan aruch in his days!
There's no need to "get into the mind" of the Rambam.
DeleteHe spelled it out, black on white, along with his reasoning, for those who are interested in reading his words. Get educated.
You assert that you know all there is to know about Rambam's psak, and also Rav Moshe's - and that there are no other considerations for you to take into account. And you even go so far as to suggest that Rav Moshe didn't see this teshuva of the Rambam! Rambam was living in an age when the Karaite movement was strong, and a threat to orthodoxy, and there were measures that were taken (on both sides actually) to keep some distance between the two groups. So he is finding reason to prevent them from being counted towards a minyan. It is has symbolic and even pedagogic effect. On the other hand, Rav Moshe was writing at time when Orthodoxy was small in number, and there was the beginning of an outreach to non observant Jews. You analysis fails to distinguish, eg between secular vs reform or conservative . The latter 2 movements have their own minyanim, bu their view of the Torah and oral Law is not quite in line with what properly Orthodox Judaism believes. So your model cannot predict what either would say about eg a conservative or reform , who davens with his own minyan on Shabbat, but might not accept eg Torah min Hashamayim.
DeleteNot about believing in.. It's about actively disbelieving in...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, do other poskim disagree with Rav Moshe?
Never mind the secular, worry about Chabad!
ReplyDelete