A source familiar with the situation said aides thought they had talked Trump out of the $2,000 demand last week, only to learn he had not given up when he posted the video. That surprised even his Treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin, who took part in the talks and backed the $600 figure.
Current federal funding is due to expire on Monday if Trump, who is scheduled to leave for Florida on Wednesday, does not sign the bill into law.
That would furlough millions of federal workers and shut down wide swaths of the U.S. government at a time when it is rushing to distribute two coronavirus vaccines and contend with a massive hack that officials say was perpetrated by Russia.
This is what happens when people do immoral stuff.
ReplyDelete“Trump veto threat ” Bravo. I agree with Joseph Orlow: “This is what happens when people do immoral stuff.” Torah thought on ויגש
ReplyDelete“Joseph could no longer refrain himself ולא יכל יוסף להתאפק before all them that stood by him לכל הנצבים עליו, and he cried out ויקרא, Have everyone withdraw from me הוציאו כל איש מעלי! So there was no one else about ולא עמד איש אתו when Joseph made himself known בהתודע יוסף to his brothers” (Genesis 45:1).
רמב"ן בראשית פרשת ויגש פרק מה פסוק א
והנכון בעיני, שהיו שם מבית פרעה ומן המצרים אנשים רבים יחלו פניו למחול לבנימין כי נכמרו רחמיהם על תחנוני יהודה, ולא יכול יוסף להתחזק לכלם.
משך חכמה
ולא יכל יוסף להתאפק לכל הנצבים. רצונו לומר, כי רצה להתאפק ולהביא את יעקב לקיים "השמש והירח (והכוכבים כורעים) ומשתחווים לי" (לז, ט). ולא היה לו לרחם עליהם כאשר לא שמעו בהתחננו אליהם. אך שלא היה נאות לפני האנשים הנצבים שלא ידעו כל המאורע, והיה נראה כאכזר וכלב בליעל בלתי חונן. ולא היה יכול להתאפק בסיבת כל הנצבים עליו.
I heard a vort. Had Joseph restrained himself further his brothers would’ve been completely forgiven and the wicked Romans would not have killed Rabbi Akiva and other Sages they murdered.
According to the Ramban the Egyptians witnessing Judah’s speech felt that Joseph should forgive Benjamin for stealing the goblet and let all the brothers return to Jacob with their food, animals and money. My theory. They suspected Joseph of lying, that Joseph did fraud, he ordered that the goblet be placed in Benjamin’s sack. According to the Meshech Chochama Joseph sought to fulfill his dreams of ruling over his brothers.
Joseph’s problem was that the Egyptians didn’t know about Joseph’s begging from the pit and he, Joseph would not tell. Joseph looked bad:: mean and suspected of fraud---not appropriate for a king in Egypt.
My theory. We should learn from Joseph and not attack today the brothers with such strong language, as I saw e.g. Yitzchok Greenberg in 12/24/2020 Jerusalem Post: “First , Vayigash recounts the crime that shattered Jacob’s family.” No. My theory. In Dothan the brothers had a fair election and made Judah king. Joseph was a rebel to the elected king Judah. The brothers, other than Joseph and Benjamin started immediately to spread out over Israel, having large families. All the brothers had large families in Goshen: “Thus Israel settled in the country of Egypt, in the region of Goshen; they acquired holdings in it, and were fertile and increased greatly.” (Genesis 47:27). Was the election fair in the USA November 2020? No, fraud.
I live in Bnei Brak. I see happy large families everywhere. I don’t see immorality. Bravo Netanyahu making peace with allies and fighting evil enemies. Bravo we caught the terrorist murderer in Jenin.
Trump is immoral?!
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah “Trump is immoral?!” No. The Progressive Left is immoral. This week’s parsha ויגש
ReplyDelete“And as for the people ואת העם, he removed them town by town העביר אתו לערים, from one end of Egypt’s border to the other.” (Genesis 47:21)
בראשית פרשת ויגש פרק מז פסוק כא
וְאֶת הָעָם הֶעֱבִיר אֹתוֹ לֶעָרִים מִקְצֵה גְבוּל מִצְרַיִם וְעַד קָצֵהוּ:
רש"י
ואת העם העביר - יוסף מעיר לעיר, לזכרון שאין להם עוד חלק בארץ, והושיב של עיר זו בחברתה. ולא הוצרך הכתוב לכתוב זאת, אלא להודיע שבחו של יוסף שנתכוין להסיר חרפה מעל אחיו, שלא יהיו קורין אותם גולים:
Chullin 60b:
“Tanna taught: Senir and Sirion are mountains in the land of Israel; this verse, however, teaches us that every one of the nations of the world went and built for itself a large city naming it after a mountain of the land of Israel, thus teaching you that even the mountains of the land of Israel are dear to the nations of the world. In another instance it is written: And as for the people, he removed them city by city. In what way does this concern us? In order that his brothers be not called strangers.”
My theory. The elder brothers of Joseph were Zionists, living all over Israel and having large families. Joseph used his wisdom and power to do a radical change in Egyptian society. Yes, rulers do that. See David Frankel in Arutz Sheva “It can happen anywhere: The French syndrome French Jews were sure of their safety, confident in their country's democracy. HItler and Petain changed that overnight. A lesson.” See Martin Sherman in Arutz Sheva “Has the Democrats’ push to depose Biden begun? An approaching scenario in which Biden, exposed as both frail and mendacious, concedes the presidency to his radical Vice President.” Sherman, ominously predicts: “It is indeed, a scenario that risks transforming America into a de-Americanized post-America—an unrecognizable shadow of its former self. That will be the terrible price the American electorate has inflicted on itself for submitting to the fit of puerile and petulant pique that molded its choice this November.”
My theory. Joseph did such a radical change to Egyptian society, because he was a socialist. Joseph did not approve (Adam Smith’s) free market philosophy. Joseph set about to remake Egyptian society. Joseph damaged Egyptian society, in my view. Petain damaged French society June 1940. The Progressive Left today is damaging American society. No Trump is not immoral. Petain was immoral. The Radical left in America today is immoral.
what would trump have to do for you to accept he is immoral?
ReplyDeleteYeah. And it would seem many politicians in both parties.
ReplyDeleteI never supported Mr. Trump because he was moral. I supported him because he upended the whole system of doing business in Washington. He still is doing that till his last day in the White House, and will be doing that even after he leaves office.
you mean he drained the swamp and did away with corruption or acted irrationally and unpredictable?
ReplyDelete“Daas Torah what would trump have to do for you to accept he is immoral?” No. The question is what revelations on Joe Biden for DT to declare him immoral? Amazing CNN and other never-Trumpers urge investigating Hunter Biden.
ReplyDeleteTorah thought on ויחי Soncino Zohar, Bereshith, Section 1, Page 248b
“R. Judah opened with the verse: “When Jacob made an end of charging his sons ויכל יעקב לצוות את בניו, he drew his feet into the bed and, expired ויגוע , he was gathered to his people ויאסף אל עמיו.” (Genesis 49:33). We should have expected here blessing instead of charging. What it means, however, is that he charged them to remain united with the Shekinah.”
Beautiful. At his death bed Jacob charged his sons to remain united with the Shekinah.
My theory. Jacob never knew immoral details of abuse of Joseph: “and took him and cast him into the pit. The pit was empty; there was no water in it. Then they sat down to a meal. Looking up, they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, their camels bearing gum, balm, and ladanum to be taken to Egypt. Then Judah said to his brothers, What do we gain by killing our brother and covering up his blood? Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but let us not do away with him ourselves. After all, he is our brother, our own flesh. His brothers agreed.” (Genesis 37:24-27).
God and certainly not Joseph nor his brothers ever revealed this to Jacob . My theory. The brothers immoral abuse of Joseph was on their minds when they pleaded to Joseph: “When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, What if Joseph still hates us לו ישטמנו יוסף and pays us back והשב ישיב לנו for all the evil הרעה that we did him! So they sent this message to Joseph, Before his death your father left this instruction: So shall you say to Joseph, Forgive, I urge you אנא שא נא , the offense פשע אחיך and their sin וחטאתם of your brothers who did to you evil כי רעה גמולך. Therefore ועתה, please forgive שא נא the offense לפשע of the servants of the God of your father. And Joseph wept ויבך when they spoke to him. His brothers also גם went to him themselves, flung themselves before him ויפלו לפניו, and said, We are your slaves הננו לך לעבדים.” (Genesis 50:15-18).
Beautiful. All the dreams of Joseph exactly fulfilled. oseph’s elder brothers were immoral to him when Joseph was 17 . My theory. Joseph was a magical person. This came from God and we should not be harsh on judging Joseph’s elder brothers.
My theory. We should be not be harsh on judging Trump or Netanyahu for any immoral behavior. Can we say the same for Joe Biden?
wow if we can manufacture a scandal with Biden's son that shows Trump's incompetence and immorality doesn't matter!
ReplyDeleteI mean he didn't neglect his promises to the voters.
ReplyDeleteThis blog is hyperfocused on Donald Trump. But as many have pointed out, the election of Donald Trump was a reaction of Republican voters to Republican candidates who made promises and then promptly ignored those promises on election.
Say what you will, Donald Trump made a stab at slowing immigration, building The Wall, and a slew of other initiatives.
"A Chutzpah! A Republican President that keeps his promises. We can't have that!!"
And now that Republicans voters have tasted democracy, there will no going back, at least for a while.
Wow forgot we now have a wall paid for by Mexico Yup he kept his promises look at all the jobs he brought back and revived the coal industry drained the swamp and didn't have time to play golf.what other great promises did I miss?
ReplyDeleteHareidi rabbis oppose shabbat vaccinations -
ReplyDeleteThey are, according to Brisker Rav, apikorism. Even for safek pikuach nefesh, refusing to violate shabbat is apikorsus, said brisker rov.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1931565/hagaon-harav-yitzchak-zilberstein-the-vaccine-has-the-authority-of-beis-din.html
ReplyDeleteRav Zilberstein doesn't adress the question of whether it is permitted to vaccinate on shabbat. But he does liken the situation to Yom Kippur, that if a doctor say eat, we listen to him.
“Daas Torah wow if we can manufacture a scandal with Biden's son that shows Trump's incompetence and immorality doesn't matter!” No. Scandal with Hunter Biden shows Joe Biden’s incompetence and immorality. Torah though on ויחי. “And Joseph said ויאמר יוסף to his brothers אל אחיו, I die אנכי מת. God will surely remember you פקד יפקד אתכם and bring you up from this land מן הארץ הזאת unto the land that He promised on oath אשר נשבע to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” (Genesis 50:24).
ReplyDeleteHertz Chumash p. 190: “24.brethren. Not necessarily brothers; near relatives is the meaning in our context.” My theory. Judah and Joseph’s older brothers were Zionists and not comfortable with Joseph and not with Jacob who waited for miracles. My theory. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph were magical people. Joseph’s older brothers were not so magical people, more down to earth.
Magical person = People with magical or supernatural powers
My theory. Joseph had magical powers he learned from Rachel who learned from her wicked father, Laban, a master sorcerer grandfather of Balaam. In those days all kings had their sorcerer’s as head of the army. In the midrash Nimrod’s (aka Hamurabi) chief sorcerer and head of army was Terah, Abraham’s father.
Allow me to show my letter today to the NYS Court of Appeals:
“2.Exhibit A: Asiello letter December 9, 2020 states: If you have or obtain an order from the Appellate Division that you have not previously asked the Court of Appeals to review, you may serve and file a motion in compliance with the Court's Rules of Practice to seek leave to appeal from that order.
3.Exhibit B: Appellate Division 2nd Judicial Dept. Decision/Order June 2, 2014 and Exhibit C: Appellate Division: 2nd Judicial Dept/ Decision/Order June 25, 2014 are orders from the Appellate Division that I never previously asked the Court of Appeals to review. The Appellate Division denied me poor person relief most unfairly. I retired from full time faculty teaching June 2008 and since worked intermittently at odd jobs making little money. I relied on my dear wife, Yemima, who can attest how little money I was making selling Judaica etc. My published articles cost me money. I relied on my dear wife, Yemima, who can attest how little money I was making selling Judaica etc. My published articles cost me money. I paid Modern Economy $700 to publish my latest article December 2020.
4.The injury to me is TIAA illegally paying 55% of my TIAA pension to Susan with no end in sight.
5.The relief I seek is for the court to overturn the QDRO. Judge Prus is out of control as you can see in his rulings. TIAA is also out of control as you can see by their letters to me. TIAA violates NYS pension laws. You are the only alternative (other than SCOTUS) to bring order and rule of law in matrimonial matters in NYS. You should agree to take my motion in the interest of many citizens in NYS and in keeping with the NYS Constitution.
6.Yes I'm challenging the $25,000 sanctions/fines of Rigler/Garson imposed and reaffirmed on me at the Supreme Court Kings County. Also I'm challenging the QDRO imposed and reaffirmed on me at the Supreme Court Kings County.
7.I'm fighting for honest and fair judges in matrimonial matters. Sad so much disputes in NYS courts on matrimonial matters. It's the feminists that run fast to NYS courts to get their way. Why? They see that they get away with fraud. Mendel Epstein et al boasted in his jury trial how he stood with his black hat and black coat in a Queens' night club facing a man sitting with several ladies of the night. Mendel Epstein boasted that he will not go away until that man agrees to send a get to his wife in Israel. That's a kangaroo court. Mendel Epstein is a vigilante and proud of it.
8.This Motion for Leave to Appeal is timely because it is based on fraud. Susan won my pension and the house and the \$25,000 Rigler/Garson fines based on fraud.”
Zionists are more down to earth people. Yitzchok Greenberg, in last week's JPost, relies on magic, in my opinion
Wow! how is that that? It has not been shown Hunter committed any crimes and if he did how does that prove his father is incompetent and immoral?
ReplyDelete“Daas Torah Wow! how is that that? It has not been shown Hunter committed any crimes and if he did how does that prove his father is incompetent and immoral?” No. Did Judah commit a crime when he threw Joseph in an empty pit? To Yizchok Greenberg Yes indeed. To wicked Romans, they used that as excuse to kill 10 Sages.
ReplyDeleteHas it been shown that Judah committed a crime? Even if shown Judah committed a crime, does this prove Judah cannot be king? To Progressive Left Trump haters Trump did commit crimes, he is no doubt incompetent and immoral, etc. Heaven forbid. Torah describes Judah throwing Joseph to an empty pit. We, who love Judah, are at pains to apologize and to defend Judah. Other cases we are at pains to apologize and to defend seemingly bad acts, Abraham sending out Ishmael, Isaac loving Esau, etc etc. We who love Trump and Netanyahu apologize and defend Trump and Netanyahu.
The NYS Court of Appeals seems willing to review my complaints of years and years ago, wow, thank you God. Did the Appellate Division do me an injustice by denying me poor person relief? Poor person relief not only waives court fees. It allows simple UPS letters to force court officials to make copies and to transfer court documents, without a lawyer,---boxes and boxes of documents. I think in my case, at least $10,000 if I had to hire a lawyer in NY. Why would I do that? I don’t have money and I don’t care about money. I keep saying let Susan keep the house and the 55% pension from 1994---just allow me from here on. Should I stop writing UPS letters? I like writing letters.
Is it really realistic to expect that someone would only have the opportunity to get vaccinated on Shabbat and on no other day? That makes no sense to me.
ReplyDeletea) the shots need to be organised by the government, and as you know, they are very difficult to store and get the temeprature and other factors right.
ReplyDeleteb) the idea of mass vaccination is to get as many people imunised in as short a space as time as possible. So delays will cost lives, since the virus is spreading in Israel, Uk, and USA to name a few.
c) In the case where there are Shabbat vaccinations, the question is what to do. It is not always so easy to just ask for the follwoing monday . In Israel, perhaps the seculars, arabs, or russians who are not halachically jewish can go. but that is not so easy to organise.
d) From a statistical point of view, what will be the net loss of delaying the vaccine from a Shabbes to a weekday? Perhaps it will take 2 weeks to or more to rearrange the vaccine. How many extra people are likely to be infected by the virus by this policy, and how many of those will die, as a result of this delay? the mathematics is going to count against the rabbis who oppose Shabbat pikuah nefesh. Remember , the same mentality was also in play before and during the holocaust. Herzl was an apikores, YU was treif, america was treif etc.
e) It is still a concern whether the vaccine are absolutely safe or not, and the are not 100% safe. but we know that anyway, and having 6 days per week won't change their safety profile.
Currently approx 210 deaths per fortnight in Israel from covid.
ReplyDeleteBy not using shabbat as a weekday for vaccination, 1/7 of this figure = 30 per fortnight extra deaths. Thats 60 per month. If it takes 5months to cover the entire population, 150 murders. Considering the approx 90% efficacy of the vaccine, 145 murders.
Chareidi rabbis are willing to murder 145 israelis, many of whom will be of their own eidah.
There's a commentor called ironheart, who mentions that the chareidim have done everything wrong in their decision making for the last 200 years. This is one more example.
Rosh yeshiva of kol torah has just fallen victim to covid.
Well, he didn't explicitly promise it, but some were apparently anticipating an openly gay cabinet secretary pick by President-Elect Biden. And they have not been disappointed!
ReplyDeleteSo is America better off for that or not?
Torah thought on ויחי “As for Asher מאשר, his bread shall be rich שמנה, And he shall yield royal dainties מעדני מלך.” (Genesis 49:20).
ReplyDeleteמלבי"ם בראשית פרשת ויחי פרק מט פסוק כ
מאשר. פי' חז"ל שבנחלת אשר היה שמן זית הרבה כמ"ש וטובל בשמן רגלו, ולחם כל השבטים היה שמן מאשר, שמשם הביאו שמן הטוב שנתנו בלחמם היינו במאכליהם, וגם הוא יתן מעדני מלך, כי היה שם כל פרי מגדים למעדנים:
Mas. Berachoth 44a:
“Mishnah. If salted food is set before him and bread with it, he says a blessing over the salted food and this serves for the bread, since the bread is only subsidiary to it. This is the general principle: whenever with one kind of food another is taken as subsidiary, a benediction is said over the principal kind and this serves for the subsidiary. Gemara. But is it ever possible for salted food to be the principal item and bread subsidiary to it? — R. Aha the son of R. ‘Awira replied, citing R. Ashi: This rule applies to [one who eats] the fruit of Genessareth [ Which is highly prized. Tosaf. explains that the rule applies to salted food taken after the fruit of Ginosar ( kibbutz near Tiberias) to correct the excessive sweetness.]”
Beautiful. Jacob blesses Asher with fabulous fruits in Israel, super sweet, dainties fit for kings. Hertz Chumash p. 186: “royal dainties. Delicacies fit for the table of kings. The allusion is probably to an export trade carried on by the men of Asher.” Thank you God. American Jews: Come to Israel. Buy property here. The fruits, cheeses, wines, meats in Israel are so superior.
Continuing on the parsha ויחי. I’m reading now Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children. I believe in magical persons everywhere. Not only Joseph, Abraham Isaac and Jacob had magical powers---but Asher and his brothers too. My source:
ReplyDelete“Then their father Israel said to them, If it must be so, do this: take some of the choice fruits מזמרת of the land in your vessels בכליכם, and carry down the man a present והורידו לאיש מנחה—a little מעט balm and a little ומעט honey, spicery נכאת, and ladanum, nuts בטנים , and almonds.” (Genesis 43:11).
בראשית פרשת מקץ פרק מג פסוק יא
וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵהֶם יִשְׂרָאֵל אֲבִיהֶם אִם כֵּן אֵפוֹא זֹאת עֲשׂוּ קְחוּ מִזִּמְרַת הָאָרֶץ בִּכְלֵיכֶם וְהוֹרִידוּ לָאִישׁ מִנְחָה מְעַט צֳרִי וּמְעַט דְּבַשׁ נְכֹאת וָלֹט בָּטְנִים וּשְׁקֵדִים:
מדרש הגדול בראשית פרשת מקץ פרק מג פסוק יא
ויאמר אליהם ישראל אביהם אם כן אפוא זאת עשו קחו מזמרת הארץ. מהו מזמרת הארץ, אמר להן קחו עמכם דברים שהן מזמרין עליהן ותמהין עליהן כשיראו אותן.
My theory. Asher settled at Ginosar when Joseph was 17. Married and had children. Asher was a magical person. When Asher was there “As for Asher מאשר, his bread shall be rich שמנה, And he shall yield royal dainties מעדני מלך.” (Genesis 49:20). My theory--- in the 7 bad years God enabled Asher to sell for export dainties fit for kings, super fabulous food: choice fruits מזמרת of the land.
Jacob gave blessings appropriate for each. Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh behaved as good Exile Jews in Egypt. The older brothers of Joseph were good Zionists. Jacob gave them blessings appropriate for them, different than for Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh.
I see magic in Netanyahu and in Trump. Wow B52 bombers, bombs in Eden and in Syria. Vaccines in Israel, the Abraham Accords... VP Pence is also a magical person, He will conduct a joint House and Senate Congress. No, Joe Biden and his son Hunter are not magical. Oh, I'm a magical person too, thank you God.
So you give thanks to Trump everyday. What happens when he is no longer president and Netanyahu is gone ? Who will run the world?
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah “So you give thanks to Trump everyday. What happens when he is no longer president and Netanyahu is gone ? Who will run the world?” No. Torah thought on ויחי “When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, It may be that Joseph will hate us לו ישטמנו יוסף and will fully requite us והשיב ישיב לנו all the evil הרעה we did גמלנו him! And they sent this message to Joseph, Your father did command before he died אביך צוה לפני מותו saying לאמר: So shall you say to Joseph, Forgive, I pray you אנא שא נא, the offense פשע of your brothers and their sin וחטאתם for they did you evil כי רעה גמלוך. And now ועתה, pray you forgive שא נא forgive the offense לפשע of the servants of the God of your father. And Joseph wept ויבך יוסף as they spoke to him. And his brothers also went to him וילכו גם אחיו, fell down before his face ויפלו לפניו, and said, We are your slaves הנה לך לעבדים.” (Genesis 50:15-19)
ReplyDeleteHertz Chumash p. 189: “They ask for his forgiveness, basing their plea on the claims of brotherhood of Faith. A fine religious appeal.”
My theory. Joseph, Ephraim, and Manasseh were good Exile Jews. The brothers were good Zionist Jews. They knew acutely that this is not the full redemption. Joseph, the good Exile Jew, was running the show completely. The good Zionist Jews felt themselves in danger of retaliation from Joseph
בראשית פרשת ויחי פרק נ פסוק יז
כֹּה תֹאמְרוּ לְיוֹסֵף אָנָּא שָׂא נָא פֶּשַׁע אַחֶיךָ וְחַטָּאתָם כִּי רָעָה גְמָלוּךָ וְעַתָּה שָׂא נָא לְפֶשַׁע עַבְדֵי אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ וַיֵּבְךְּ יוֹסֵף בְּדַבְּרָם אֵלָיו:
Yoma 87a:
“R. Jose b. Hanina said: One who asks pardon of his neighbor need do so no more than three times, as it is said: “So shall you say to Joseph, Forgive, I pray you אנא שא נא, the offense פשע of your brothers and their sin וחטאתם for they did you evil כי רעה גמלוך. And now ועתה, pray you forgive שא נא forgive the offense לפשע of the servants of the God of your father.” (Genesis 50:17) “
Per R. Hanina one needs to asks pardon 3 times, based on 3 times נא: אנא שא נא שא נא. My theory. The brothers were not really sorry and Joseph was not really forgiving. We give thanks to God and we learn Torah, both good Exile Jews and good Zionist Jews. What happens when Joseph is no longer alive? We still have good Exile Jews and good Zionist Jews.
“Thus said the Lord: As surely as I have established My covenant with day and night—the laws of heaven and earth—” (Jeremiah 33:25)
ירמיהו פרק לג פסוק כה
כֹּה אָמַר יְקֹוָק אִם לֹא בְרִיתִי יוֹמָם וָלָיְלָה חֻקּוֹת שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ לֹא שָׂמְתִּי:
רש"י
אם לא בריתי וגו' - אי אפשר שלא יתקיים הברית שכרתי ליום ולילה להיות בעתם ואי אפשר לחוקות שמים וארץ ליבטל כאלו לא שמתים גם זרע יעקב וגו' ורבותינו דרשוהו לענין ברית התורה ללמוד מכאן שבשביל התורה נבראו שמים וארץ אך אין המדרש מיושב על סדר המקראות:
7yadvice.google.Com
ReplyDeleteThis math is fuzzy because the 210 deaths per fornight are people who were already infected weeks ago. A vaccine shot won't help them as it is too late. When you look at the Moderna trial as an example, out of over 21,000 people vaccinated and 21,000 given placebo, how many died of Covid within the couple of months of trial followup?
ReplyDeleteThe reason the number is so low is because they enrolled a broad population into the trial to make sure it works for all, and so they included demographics who are not as much at risk.
All countries currently distributing vaccines should be aiming to vaccinate every elderly person in the country. First, and as quickly as possible.
The supply will be distributed according to demand, so if charedis don't show up on Shabbos afternoon to get vaccinated, there are plenty of seculars, Russians, Arabs, etc to get those shots on that day. On non-Shabbos days, the charedi demand will be higher. Either they have enough supply that everyone can get shots, or they don't. (I'm not sure how much they purchased).
If an individual delays his vaccine shot by one day to Sunday, all that means is he has to avoid coronavirus transmission for 11 months and 1 day plus 30 days for the booster shot, instead of 11 months plus 30 days.
I don't think the "Get your shot on Shabbos, pikuah nefesh!" discussion is quite so simple as it's being made out to be. Perhaps a much more compelling case can be made for an old person though.
Yes, of course, I was making some basic assumptions. Also assuming the steady supply and availability of the vaccines, which is not so simple to reproduce.
ReplyDeleteWould Friday be so successful as Monday, since public transport runs half a day, whilst on shabbat there is zero public transport ( maybe in Haifa and Arab towns).
There are many other factors _
And even the question of mutations. Maybe frum people will say that the virus mutated as punishment for the shmad against hareidim to get vaccinated on shabbat.
I don't see frum people driving to get vaccinated on shabbat as a real possibility.
But pikuah nefesh dictates that you should, even if there's a safek on the vaccine.
Where did you get the 11 months figure? Even the first shot of a 2 shot regimen confers some immunity. After a couple of weeks.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the sample sizes are small. In the general population there were 100 cases per 100,000 , and now that has increased.
Not sure i follow your argument about the deaths of people infected several weeks earlier.
At time of vaccination, the patient could be virus free, already infected, or infected and recovered.
Since the immunisation program has already begun, delaying the vaccine is to one's detriment. A virus naive patient (not yet infected) can radically reduce his/her risk of serious disease within 2 weeks of receiving their first shot.
There may not be equal daily uptake of shots per day. Some israelis are going to arab towns to jump the queue, since arab sector are slow to enlist for the vaccine.
Its a bit like counting the Omer. If my first appointment is on shabbat, then i just need to avoid catching the virus for a couple of weeks m'macharat hashabbat, and i have 90% immunity.
I don't know the system in Israel, but my elderly mother missed her first shot in England, back in December. And was only allocated an appointment today.
Also, there is no uniform supply of shots throughout the week, maybe Friday and Shabbes are half numbers.
Where did I get the 11 months from? We waited 11 months for there to be a vaccine and we spent 11 months trying to avoid infection. You clearly didn't understand my comment. If I get vaccinated on Monday instead of Friday, that adds 3 whole days to the 11 months plus 30 days that I needed to avoid infection after vaccine primer.
ReplyDeleteLol
ReplyDeleteIt's a red herring.
We may have waited hundreds of years for a smallpox vaccine.
The point is here and now, from when the vaccine becomes available and ready to get.
Your analysis ignores the fact that no one is guaranteed to be infected every day of their life and that most people have minimal to no chances of dying from it even if they are infected. You have a more compelling case for the elderly only. If a younger person is truly doing their best to avoid infection, with real social distancing practices, delaying when they receive vaccine by a day or two is inconsequential. For those who refuse social distancing or think their fake distancing effort "counts" then it's a different story.
ReplyDeleteWe are not talking about certainties, we are talking about risk. And safek sakkanat nefesh - for which we must still break shabbat.
ReplyDeleteThere are many ifs and buts - and real world experience is not so easy to reconstruct.
If there are a limited number of avaialble shots, which seems to be the case, worldwide, including Israel, and a limited number of adminstrators - then appoitnments will be fully booked. I look at the group chats on Israel groups, and people are desperate to get invited to receive an injection - . So waiting a couple of days, is not necessarily going to work. Unless, for example, in places like Bnei Brak they have frum-friendly medical staff, who will make the extra effort to get the shots done on weekdays.
Younger people are last in line anyway, and they will get their appointments a few months away.
By your logic, it is safek Sakkanat nefesh to drive a car to the store, to cross the street, and to even step outside because of the risk of lightning strike. That of course makes no sense. Some risks are more meaningful than other risks
ReplyDeletePlease note, also, that in New York State, 1 in 500 of the population have died from covid 19.
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty clear that Jews were affected disproportionately higher than the general population.
So it is essential to get vaccinated as soon as possible. The sages say break 1 shabbat so you can keep many more.
Nope
ReplyDeletea) as a halachic category, Sakkanat nefesh and/or safek S.N. allow or command us to push off certain other mitzvot eg kashrus, shabbat, yomtov etc. So your examples have not halachic dilemma. Other than to choose the safest mode of transport.
b) There is a a very deadly pandemic, with a risk of death loosely between 0.1 - 1% of those who catch the virus. Risk of lightning strike is much less, and the prevalence as a cause of death is much lower. the pandemic is an outlier, somethign we have not seen for maybe 100 years.
1 in 500 dying is what happens when you let the elderly and longterm care residents get infected. As I said already old people should be lining up immediately to get these vaccines as soon as available.
ReplyDelete0.5% is the aggregate number. But that is NOT the number for all age demographics. The odds of death for younger people are very low. Probably more likely to get hit by a car crossing the street
ReplyDeleteUseless comment. If I had given a figure for over 60s, you would accuse me of cherry picking, and say that the average across all ages was only 0.5%
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line, the brisker rov is reputed to have said that someone who refuses to break shabbat for pikuach (or safek) nefesh is committing apikorsus - ie halacha requires us to overrule shabbat when there is a danger to life.
ReplyDeleteCurrently in London, 1/1000 of the population are in hospital for covid. Anything from 20-50% of us here are carrying the virus! (Depending on different statistical models )
Immediate ganger only or also potential danger?
ReplyDeleteYou are misquoting the Brisker Rav!
Can you provide the exact quote if you have it?
ReplyDeleteFrom Chaim jachter article on koltorah:
ReplyDeleteAny discussion of Pikuach Nefesh must begin with the following statement that appears in the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 823:2), "it is a Mitzvah to violate Shabbat for one who is dangerously ill. Furthermore, one who acts quickly (הזהיר) in such circumstances is worthy of praise, and one who poses a question [to a rabbi to see if it is permissible to violate Shabbat to preserve life] sheds blood." The Mishna Berura (823:6) notes that the Jerusalem Talmud condemns Torah scholars who are posed with the question of whether danger to life warrants the desecration of Shabbat. The Mishna Berura explains that a Torah scholar must publicize the fact that one must desecrate Shabbat in case of Pikuach Nefesh, so that in case of emergency on Shabbat, people should not hesitate to do whatever is necessary to preserve life. The Mishna Berura also cites the Radvaz's ruling that if one refuses to desecrate Shabbat to save his own life, the individual may be coerced to desecrate Shabbat to preserve his life. The Radvaz also writes that one should try to convince the person in such a case to desecrate Shabbat to preserve life - probably because coercion may traumatize the patient and may make matters worse (see, for example, Igrot Moshe Choshen Mishpat II:37:5 and Rabbi Yigal Shafran's excellent essay on coercing patients to receive medical treatment, Techumin 41:333-153).
Moreover, the Rambam (Hilchot Shabbat 2:3) describes those who believe that it is forbidden to violate Shabbat in order to save a life as אפיקורסים (heretics). The Rambam emphatically describes those who expound such views as degrading the Torah by erroneously implying that "the Torah laws are not good and laws which one cannot live by." The Rambam writes that "the Torah laws are not mean-spirited rules, rather they are merciful, kind, and promote peace in the world."
An example of how important it is to preserve life even if it involves violating Shabbat is illustrated by a story I once heard from Rav Soloveitchik. Once, as a young boy, Rav Soloveitchik was ill on Shabbat and his illustrious father and grandfather were present at the sick bed. His Grandfather, Rav Chaim Soloveitchik, inquired of the doctor who came to see the young patient if turning on a light would be helpful. The doctor replied "that's not a bad idea." Rav Chaim immediately instructed his son, Rav Moshe, to turn on the light to aid the doctor in his work. When Rav Moshe hesitated (the doctor did not say that the light was unquestionably necessary), Rav Chaim called his son a heretic. When Rav Chaim was asked how he could be so lenient regarding Shabbat, he replied that he was not lenient regarding Shabbat, he was strict regarding Pikuach Nefesh.
"The Rambam writes that "the Torah laws are not mean-spirited rules, rather they are merciful, kind, and promote peace in the world.""
ReplyDeleteThis is what Emanuel Rackman ztl would describe as a teleological approach to halacha - the ends - merciful, kind, peace influence the direction of halacha.
Rav Chaim himself, said that the lights were safek a requirement, not mamash. Yet he called his son apikorus for not switching on the lights.
ReplyDeleteHuh? No I wouldn't have. I have said over and over and over again it is a matter of life and death and every elderly person possible should get the vaccine as soon as they can.
ReplyDeleteIf you choose the figure for over 60's to describe over 60's that's called honesty.
If you choose the figure for over 60's to talk about EVERYONE, that would be a lie.
If you choose 0.5% and pretend that this is the relevant number for 20 year olds, that's a lie.
I am interested in the truth, not ideology.
And in fact, the FAR more compelling case of pikuach nefesh, right now, is that NO young person should receive a vaccine until EVERY elderly person has been vaccinated first. Every single young person that takes an available vial away from an unvaccinated old person who should be getting it is practically committing murder. So young people should not be getting vaccinated right now on Shabbat or on a weekday as this is pikuach nefesh not to! The most at risk need to go first, these vaccines prevent symptomatic and severe cases, and they do not prevent infection to the same extent. If a young person is vaccinated right now but can still pass infection to an old person it solves NOTHING! (Because that young person likely would have had a mild case anyway, and the old person is at serious risk of dying from the virus since they are unvaccinated)
ReplyDeleteNo, I chose a figure for everyone, as per reports that I had read. there is no lie or ideology. Elders are more at risk, and the way the vaccine is being distributed is by decreasing age, at least in the UK, and presumably also in Israel.
ReplyDeleteYoungsters like me will wait till spring/ summer
that is your interpretation. Rav Chaim did not say that
ReplyDeletehttps://www.koltorah.org/halachah/shabbat-and-pikuach-nefesh-part-i-by-rabbi-howard-jachter
ReplyDeleteEither I am misreading Rav Jachter's article, or-
Rav Jachter misheard it from Rav J.B. Soloveitchik
or Rav Solovaeitchik misinterpreted what his grandfather said
Or Rav Jachter is misleading us
or perhaps it is true, and what I said is a correct intepretation of the story
Rambam, Hilchot Shabbat ch.2 , 1:
ReplyDeleteThe [laws of] the Sabbath are suspended1 in the face of a danger to life,2 as are [the obligations of] the other mitzvot. Therefore, we may perform - according to the directives of a professional physician3 of that locale4 - everything that is necessary for the benefit of a sick person whose life is in danger.
When there is a doubt whether or not the Sabbath laws must be
violated on a person's behalf, one should violate the Sabbath laws on
his behalf, for the Sabbath laws are suspended even when there is merely
a question of danger to a person's life. [The same principles apply]
when one physician says the Sabbath laws should be violated on a
person's behalf and another physician states that this is not necessary.5
א
דְחוּיָה
הִיא שַׁבָּת אֵצֶל סַכָּנַת נְפָשׁוֹת כִּשְׁאָר כָּל הַמִּצְוֹת.
לְפִיכָךְ חוֹלֶה שֶׁיֵּשׁ בּוֹ סַכָּנָה עוֹשִׂין לוֹ כָּל צְרָכָיו
בְּשַׁבָּת עַל פִּי רוֹפֵא אֻמָּן שֶׁל אוֹתוֹ מָקוֹם. סָפֵק שֶׁהוּא
צָרִיךְ לְחַלֵּל עָלָיו אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת סָפֵק שֶׁאֵינוֹ צָרִיךְ. וְכֵן
אִם אָמַר רוֹפֵא לְחַלֵּל עָלָיו אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת וְרוֹפֵא אַחֵר אוֹמֵר
אֵינוֹ צָרִיךְ מְחַלְּלִין עָלָיו אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת שֶׁסְּפֵק נְפָשׁוֹת
דּוֹחֶה אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת:
the dr didn't say Its an absolute medical necessity for the light to be on. Rav Moshe was not an imbecile, he was a gaon. He understood it to be doubtful.
ReplyDeleteMaybe he knew it was critical for proper diagnosis and care
ReplyDeleteit is an interesting story which may be relevant to something but that is not how you decide halacha. Did anyone include your understanding in a real halachic teshuva? We don't decide scientific issues in this manner either
ReplyDeleteyes -
ReplyDeleteThe Yerushalmi atatcks rabbis getting involved in writing teshuvos on pikuach nefesh and all its fine details, because that is not when to go to a rav.
The Mishna Berura cites this Yerushalmi!
The Rambam in Hilchot shabbat says even for a doubtful danger, we still break shabbat.
And don't forget teh one who spreads his net on shabbat to catch fish, but saves a human life, is not considered to have violated shabbat.
please show me this Yerushalmi which attacks tshuvos dealing with pikuach nefessh. I guess Rav Moshe and many other poskim missed that one or else didn't accept it as relevant
ReplyDeleteare you refering to this yerushalmi?תלמוד ירושלמי יומא מ״א ב:א׳
ReplyDeleteתני הזריז משובח והנשאל מגונה והשואל הרי זה שופך דמים תני כל דבר שהוא של סכנה אין אומר יעשו דברים בעכו"ם ובקטנים אלא אפילו בגדולים בישראל
Jerusalem Talmud Yoma 41b:1
It was taught in a Beraita: The one who acts with alacrity is to be praised; the one who is asked (concerning whether to desecrate the Shabbat) is disgraceful; and the one who asks is a murderer. It was further taught in a Beraita: Any case of danger, we do not say a non-Jew or child rather even a Jew (over Bar Mitzvah) may do the action.
"We don't decide scientific issues in this manner either"
ReplyDeleteThe halacha already stipulates that in dangerous or possible risk to life situations, preserving life overrides 610 out of the 613 mitzvot.
In science, or its application, similar considerations are made - example, developing the vaccine for the pandemic has been speeded up, when it might normally take many years. In certain diseases, Rachmonoh l'etzlan, riskier and perhaps unproven drugs might be used when there is nothing else available.
In day to day psak, in divorce or kashrut you are right, there is time to think things over, and discuss and ask.
Yes, in the article I mentioned, it is cited in the Mishna Berura :
ReplyDelete"The Mishna Berura (823:6) notes that the Jerusalem Talmud condemns Torah scholars who are posed with the question of whether danger to life warrants the desecration of Shabbat. The Mishna Berura explains that a Torah scholar must publicize the fact that one must desecrate Shabbat in case of Pikuach Nefesh, so that in case of emergency on Shabbat, people should not hesitate to do whatever is necessary to preserve life.
The Mishna Berura also cites the Radvaz's ruling that if one refuses to desecrate Shabbat to save his own life, the individual may be coerced to desecrate Shabbat to preserve his life."
https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/shabbat-and-pikuach-nefesh-part-i-by-rabbi-howard-jachter
you simply misquoted the Yerushalmi!
ReplyDeleteIt does not condemn rabbis writing about pikuach nefesh
Does it condemn those who ask?
ReplyDeleteWhy does the M. B. Cite it? Or is that also misquoted?
Doesn't condemn those who write teshuvos as you claimed
ReplyDeleteI got the argument from rav Jachter article, who cites thr MB, who cites the Yerushalmi.
ReplyDeleteSo you have a machloket with rav howard jachter.
That doesn't change the meaning of the Yerushalmi it still doesnt say Rabbis should not write about Pikuach Nefesh. Rav Jachter didn't say that either
ReplyDeleteIt is your misunderstanding
"The Mishna Berura (823:6) notes that the Jerusalem Talmud condemns Torah scholars who are posed with the question of whether danger to life warrants the desecration of Shabbat."
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.com/amp/s/www.koltorah.org/halachah/shabbat-and-pikuach-nefesh-part-i-by-rabbi-howard-jachter%3fformat=amp
By repeatedly denying something, it doesn't make your statement truthful. However, when you let the cat out of the bag by even denying what rav Jachter said, it was clear to me that you are playing games today.
You made up a rule and it is wrong
ReplyDeleteI understand English as well as you do, and that is what Rav Jachter says. I didn't make up anything.
ReplyDeletesee this
"The Torah teaches that we consider a possible danger to life as being equivalent to a certain danger (Talmud, Yuma 83a) and that, when lives
are in danger, Torah law dictates that “it is a mitzvah for the greatest among the group” to personally desecrate the law in order to save a life. As it states, “One who shows alacrity is praiseworthy, one who
stops to ask is a murderer, and one who is asked is worthy of disgust”
(Talmud Yerushalmi, Yume 8:5).
https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/blogs/312808/im-a-rabbi-and-a-physician-assistant-this-is-why-i-want-you-to-stay-home/
also, Rav Nebenzahl cites the Brisker Rav:
ReplyDelete"The Brisker Rav zt"l added a further point. "Pikuach Nefesh" is not limited to preventing an immediate lossof life. Should there exist a danger that in seventy years a person may die sooner, this too would fall underthe category of "pikuach nefesh". A case actually happened with one of the Brisker Rav's most belovedstudents (out of respect I will not mention his name). When this student died during the month of Shvat,the Brisker Rav commented "if he had only taken my advice and eaten on Yom Kippur, he would still bealive". Eating on Yom Kippur is not only permitted to save someone from an immediate death but even fromdeath a few months later. This is because it is the Torah's wish that human beings, especially Jewish ones,live."
https://www.yna.edu/emails/newsletter/5771/Masei/sicha.pdf
even a delayed, future danger, warrants breaking a present Shabbat, according to the above citation of the Brisker Rav.
that is not your original claim- which was your incorrect interpretation.
ReplyDeleteKalonymus
ReplyDeleteHaQatan BiotechObserver • a day ago
The bottom line, the brisker rov is reputed to have said that someone who
refuses to break shabbat for pikuach (or safek) nefesh is committing apikorsus
- ie halacha requires us to overrule shabbat when there is a danger to life.
Currently in London,
1/1000 of the population are in hospital for covid. Anything from 20-50% of us
here are carrying the virus! (Depending on different statistical models )
Daas Torah Mod Kalonymus
HaQatan • a day ago • edited
Immediate
danger only or also potential danger?
You are misquoting the Brisker Rav!
Kalonymus
HaQatan Daas Torah
• a day ago
Rav Chaim
himself, said that the lights were safek a requirement, not mamash. Yet he
called his son apikorus for not switching on the lights.
Daas Torah Mod Kalonymus HaQatan • a day ago
that is your interpretation. Rav Chaim did not say
that
Claim 1 was that Brisker Rav said it, when in fact it was
Rav Chaim Soloveitchik
Claim 2 or debate 2
was whether it deals with safek pikuach nefesh (PN) or only actual P.N.
Claim 3 was whether the Yerushalmi is meganeh Rabbonim who take questions about
pikuach nefesh. (it uses the word meguneh).
To answer your latest
allegation, look at your previous comments:
Daas Torah Mod Kalonymus HaQatan • 9 hours ago
That doesn't change the meaning of the Yerushalmi it still doesnt say Rabbis
should not write about Pikuach Nefesh. Rav Jachter didn't say that either
It is your misunderstanding
Daas Torah Mod Kalonymus HaQatan • 8 hours ago
You made up a rule and it is wrong
Then I said:
"The Torah teaches that we consider a possible danger
to life as being equivalent to a certain danger (Talmud, Yuma 83a) and that, when lives
Daas Torah Mod Kalonymus HaQatan • 41 minutes
ago
that is not your original claim- which was your incorrect interpretation.
So my claim 1 about the Brisker Rav, was in fact about his father Rav Chaim ztl. (the brisker Rav was also machmir on pikuach
nefesh, read Rav Nebenzahl’s story, which was also in an early DT post).
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/06/pikuach-nefesh-in-being-labeled-as.html
My claim 2 about safek PN is borne by Yoma 83a.
My claim 3 is based on
Rav Jachter’s citation of the Mishna Brura which quotes the Yerushalmi. Rav Jachter – a competent posek and Rav of
the MO world, uses the words, I am just
quoting him:
"The Mishna Berura (823:6) notes that the Jerusalem
Talmud condemns Torah scholars who are posed with the question of whether
danger to life warrants the desecration of Shabbat."
As I already stated, this is a clear and unambiguous
statement by a leading Rav. It is not my
personal opinion or invention. You have
a machloket with his interpretation? , fine, write a teshuva to him.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/01/pikuach-nefesh-shabbos.html
ReplyDelete