Ohr HaChaim (Bereishis 29:18) And Yakov loved Rachel Not because of her beauty but because they were a predestined couple or alternatively as our Sages (Shabbos 25b) say that a talmid chachom should have a beautiful wife to protect against lust. So even though Yakov was a very spiritual man who defeated his lust nevertheless the Torah teaches a person to have common sense.
Good to be a talmid chacham - you get power, immunity, money, respect, snd a beautiful wife. Basically, live like a king.
ReplyDeleteAm haartzim should rebel against talmidei chachamim, who are not interested in the welfare of the masses. Even today, in yeshivas, they do not help the regular students, only interested in a) the very rich (who will give them donations) and b) the semicha stream. The others get a bad deal.
ReplyDeleteSo we will rebel, against this tyranny!
Seems to contradict the opinion in the prior source (bring an am haaretz). How could a beautiful wife protect against lust if the talmid chochom won't be looking at her? There seem to be two threads in chazal - a naive view of a talmid chochom and a realistic view - and they are contradictory.
ReplyDeleteThe Gemara actually says something different - it is not about beauty, just that she is suitable for him.
ReplyDeleteno it doesn't
ReplyDeleteSoncini R. Abba said: This refers to a decked-out bed and an adorned wife for scholars.
https://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Shabbath.pdf
ReplyDeleteR. Akiba said: He who has a wife comely in deeds.17
(17) He spoke from personal experience: his wife stood out as a model of fidelity and trust, and it was she alone whoenabled and encouraged him to attain his high position (Ned. 50a)
So he disagreed and offered a more politically correct view - doesn't refute the view which was clearly accepted by others that I posted already
ReplyDeletewhere does it say the view was accepted by the majority? It was just statement of one Chacham. R Akiva was the leading Chacham of his generation (although we held reverse positions on the discussion about Bar Kochba).
ReplyDeletei have shown it has been accepted as shown also by being included in the Talmud
ReplyDeletethis is not halacha but hashkofa and does not need a rov or Sanhedrin
In the same vein as eshet yefat toar
ReplyDeleteGittin 62a:
ReplyDelete"מנא לך דרבנן איקרו מלכים, אמר להו, "דכתיב בי מלכים ימלוכו
Whilst Eshet yefat toar is in the Torah, and would have been a common occurence in wartime, the Rabbis downplay this mitzva as to its limited application - on the other hand, this concept is nowhere in the Torah, but is upgraded by Rabbanim, and applies only to themselves.
ReplyDeleteMisheli 8
ReplyDeleteבִּ֭י מְלָכִ֣ים יִמְלֹ֑כוּ וְ֝רוֹזְנִ֗ים יְחֹ֣קְקוּ צֶֽדֶק׃
Through me kings reign And rulers decree just laws;
בִּ֭י שָׂרִ֣ים יָשֹׂ֑רוּ וּ֝נְדִיבִ֗ים כָּל־שֹׁ֥פְטֵי צֶֽדֶק׃
Through me princes rule, Great men and all the righteous judges.
"Me" refers to Hochma - wisdom
רש"י משלי פרק ח פסוק טו
ReplyDelete(טו) בי מלכים ימלוכו - שהדינים והמשפטים אני מלמדם:
Shlomo hamelech seems to be speaking about chochmah in the first person. Also, chochmah is open to all of us - whereas malchut is not.
ReplyDeleteYour comment reminds me of Pesachim 49b.
ReplyDeleteWhat's your point?
ReplyDeleteDo you disagree with the Talmudic reference I quoted?
The greatest crown, the Crown of Torah is open to all that are interested in it.
ReplyDeleteRambam (Talmud Torah 3:1)
בשלשה כתרים נכתרו ישראל, כתר תורה, וכתר כהונה, וכתר מלכות. כתר כהונה זכה בו אהרן, שנאמר "והיתה לו ולזרעו אחריו ברית כהנת עולם". כתר מלכות זכה בו דוד, שנאמר "זרעו לעולם יהיה וכסאו כשמש נגדי". כתר תורה הרי מונח ועומד ומוכן לכל ישראל. שנאמר תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהלת יעקב. כל מי שירצה יבא ויטול. שמא תאמר שאותם הכתרים גדולים מכתר תורה הרי הוא אומר בי מלכים ימלוכו ורוזנים יחוקקו צדק בי שרים ישורו. הא למדת שכתר תורה גדול משניהם:
Absolutely beautiful...not that the RAMBAM needs my accolades!
ReplyDeleteDisagree? I brought the source, from Mishlei - he speaks in the name of wisdom. In chazal era, they were the address for wisdom.
ReplyDeleteRabban Gamaliel /rabbi Yehoshua was a different story.
ReplyDeleteNotice, rabbi Akiva states he used to be an am haaretz _ so an am haaretz can be highly educated, intelligent and able learn.
Not sure this dichotomy existed in days of neviim. They would reach out to the masses, teach them Torah and mitzvot. Look at Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezra, Nehemiah.
Idolatry is not the same as am haartzut.
Based on pesachim - why should an am haaretz, or just a regular secular, accept the authority of chazal, when they have such sinah towards regular am haartzim?
ReplyDeleteTorah = wisdom
ReplyDeletewithout Torah..... no wisdom
on the one hand, you say - based on the Talmud - that the very Chachamim we revere (Chazal) have the biggest yetzer haras of all - on the other hand you deny that this yetzer hara could ever have the minutest of effect on their thoughts, speech or actions.
ReplyDeleteIt is the opposite it is the chachom who is hated as R akiva shows
ReplyDeleteSimilar antisemitism is the result of Sinai
Rabbi Akiva was a self hating Jew, he states this himself. Don't blame the rest of the world for it
ReplyDeleteאָמַר רַבִּי שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר נַחְמָנִי אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: עַם הָאָרֶץ מוּתָּר לְקוֹרְעוֹ כְּדָג. אָמַר רַבִּי שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר יִצְחָק: וּמִגַּבּוֹ
Shmuel bar Nachmani - lover of the world.
DT: "It is the opposite it is the chachom who is hated as R akiva shows
ReplyDeleteSimilar antisemitism is the result of Sinai"
Antisemitism /sinai - red herring.
If the masses hated chazal, why did they not support the sadducees? Josephus tells a different story, that the masses liked chazal, and followed them because of their charitable works.
Even today, the middle of the road traditional but not strictly halachic Jews, especially sephardim, support chachamim, and go to them for blessings. Was the case also with Lubavitcher rebbe.
Who generally has a better handle in controlling their Yetzer Hara? The Tzaddikim, despite their massive Yetzer Hara, or the Amei Haaretz with a lesser Yetzer?
ReplyDeleteHint: See Sukka (52a) the different reactions when the Yetzer Hara will be slaughtered by Hashem in the end of days.
The two groups lived in parallel universes.
ReplyDeleteThe Am Haaretz had no clue what was going on in the minds of the Talmidei Chachamim (see Tosfos, Kesubos 62b, s.v. Dehave Tzania Umaali)
No one suggested that the Am Haaretz is mentally deficient. In fact, if that were to be the case; then we wouldn't be expecting too much from him in the first place. The problem is the AH who is quite clever, and pursues other areas of study, but neglects the study of Torah, and is therefore lacking in his service of Hashem [Lo Am Ha’aretz Chassid (Avos 2:5)].
ReplyDeleteThe greatest crown, the Crown of Torah is open to all that are truly interested in it, and are willing to put in the effort to acquire it, as we see from the story of Rabbi Akiva.
“Talmid Chachom should have beautiful wife” Why not? Torah thought on וישלח
ReplyDelete“And it came to pass ויהי, While Israel dwelt בשכן in that land, Reuben went and lay וישכב with Bilhah, his father’s concubine פילגש אביו ; and Israel found out. Now ןיהי the sons of Jacob were twelve שנים עשר.” (Genesis 35:22).
Hertz Chumash p. 490: “It was a practice among Eastern heirs-apparent to take possession of the father’s wives, as an assertion of their right to the throne, that action identifying them with the late ruler’s personality in the eyes of the people. This explains Reuben’s conduct in Gen. 35:22 and Absolom’s in II Sam. 16:20-22.”
Various opinions on
בראשית פרשת ויחי פרק מט פסוק ד
פַּחַז כַּמַּיִם אַל תּוֹתַר כִּי עָלִיתָ מִשְׁכְּבֵי אָבִיךָ אָז חִלַּלְתָּ יְצוּעִי עָלָה:
Shabbath 55b:
“This is dependent on Tannaim. “Unstable as water פחז כמים, you shall excel no longer אל תותר Because כי you mounted עלית your father’s bed משכבי אביך then אז you defiled my couch חללת יצועי— he mountedעלה !” (Genesis 49:4). R. Eliezer interpreted: Thou wast hasty [Paztah], thou wast guilty חבתה [Habtah] thou didst disgrace זלתה [Zaltah]. R. Joshua interpreted: Thou didst overstep [Pasatah] the law פסעתה על דת, thou didst sin חטאת [Hatatha], thou didst fornicate זנית [Zanitha].”
This is like various opinions whether Esau’s embrace and tearful kiss was fake news or sincere at that moment. Interesting. My theory. Not important. Could be that even Jacob did not know if Esau’s kiss was fake news or sincere, if Reuben really had sex with Bilhah or not. We always hope and pray for Esau’s descendants to become good. In the midrash Reuven did repent.
Can we get back to the K-G garbage heter? Not important if Tamar sinned or not, still Tamar must leave her 2nd husband. Did Democrats sin by stuffing ballot boxes and cheating to get Biden elected? Interesting. We hope and pray for Biden/Harris to become good.
Ahh '- but the source tells the opposite story. The 2 AH had no lust on the journey. The rabbi said he would not have controlled himself.
ReplyDeleteHint, see the source you are discussing
Ezra would read the Torah to the Am, reprimand them for intermarriage, tell them to send mishloach manot on yom tov. There was no talk of slicing up people with knives - not even those who were mechalel shabbat in public.
ReplyDeleteSuggestion - sinnas chinam destroyed the temple.
Am haaretz only existed in the world of chazal. They did not exist in the Tenach, and they do not exist today. They are not reform, secular, traditional etc.
ReplyDeleteNefesh hachaim says something different - that so many yetzers present themselves for the talmid chacham - indeed the Gra rejected maggidim, because they sometimes give false information - leading the inspired scholars to great errors. The yetzer hara works on a much higher level.
ReplyDeleteYou think that two sources on the same page contradict each other?
ReplyDeleteDo you think you can bring sacrifices on har habayit now, because at the end of days the Temple will be rebuilt?
ReplyDeleteThere is no basis in the Torah for being allowed to kill someone you don't like, even with a Sanhedrin. The am haaretz is someone who practices basic Torah. He is not mechalel shabbat.
ReplyDeleteOne good thing i learned from a certain rabbi, is that if you are gullible enough to be fooled in the market, you can also be fooled by the yetxer hara.
And you know this how? Even the Shiva Tovei Hair could kill someone
ReplyDeleteA navi told me. I bet your source is not a navi.
ReplyDeleteThen Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I (X)anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 (Y)Why have you (Z)despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? (AA)You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, (AB)the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.