Friday, August 12, 2016

Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter: Tisha B'Av - The consequence of the Destruction of the Temple

Sotah (49a-b): R. ELIEZER THE GREAT SAYS: FROM THE DAY THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED, THE SAGES BECAME OF LOWER QUALITY AND BEGAN TO BE LIKE SCHOOL-TEACHERS, SCHOOL-TEACHERS LIKE SYNAGOGUE-ATTENDANTS, SYNAGOGUE-ATTENDANTS LIKE COMMON PEOPLE, AND THE COMMON PEOPLE BECAME MORE AND MORE DEBASED; AND THERE WAS NONE TO ASK, NONE TO INQUIRE. UPON WHOM IS IT FOR US TO RELY? UPON OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE MESSIAH1 INSOLENCE WILL INCREASE AND HONOUR DWINDLE;2 THE VINE WILL YIELD ITS FRUIT [ABUNDANTLY] BUT WINE WILL BE DEAR;3 THE GOVERNMENT WILL TURN TO HERESY4 AND THERE WILL BE NONE [TO OFFER THEM] REPROOF; THE YESHIVAS WILL BE USED FOR IMMORALITY; GALILEE WILL BE DESTROYED, GABLAN5 DESOLATED, AND THE DWELLERS ON THE FRONTIER WILL GO ABOUT [BEGGING] FROM PLACE TO PLACE WITHOUT ANYONE TO TAKE PITY ON THEM; THE WISDOM OF THE LEARNED WILL DEGENERATE, FEARERS OF SIN WILL BE DESPISED, AND THE TRUTH WILL BE LACKING; YOUTHS WILL PUT OLD MEN TO SHAME, THE OLD WILL STAND UP IN THE PRESENCE OF THE YOUNG, A SON WILL REVILE HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER WILL RISE AGAINST HER MOTHER, A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW, AND A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD;7 THE FACE OF THE GENERATION WILL BE LIKE THE FACE OF A DOG, A SON WILL NOT FEEL ASHAMED BEFORE HIS FATHER. SO UPON WHOM IS IT FOR US TO RELY? UPON OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

44 comments :

  1. The Gemara is speaking of all leaders of the generation, not only the one featured here.

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  2. Rabbi Eidensohn,Please cut it out already,believe me you are embarrassing yourself with this pathological obsession with RSK,get over it and move on to the next scandal. Are you trying to be the next "Failed Messiah" ?

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  3. how is it embarrassing to keep the laws of the Torah? Did you ever read the first simon in Shulchan Aruch?

    Your rationalizing that any action which is not politically correct is a sign of psychopathology and therefore should not be done is rather sick and clearly against the halacha

    שולחן ערוך אורח חיים הלכות הנהגת אדם בבקר סימן א
    * ולא יתבייש (ה) ב מפני בני אדם (ו) [ד] המלעיגים עליו בעבודת השי"ת

    משנה ברורה סימן א ס"ק ו

    (ו) המלעיגים עליו - וכן[ז] אם הוא אדם בינוני עומד במקום גדולים לא יתבייש מהם ללמוד ולעשות המצוה אך אם אפשר לו לעשות המצוה שלא בפניהם טוב יותר.[ח] ומיהו בפני בינונים שילמדו ממנו י"ל טוב יותר לעשות בפניהם שילמדו ממנו לעשות כמעשהו אך יכוין לבו לש"ש ולא להתפאר חלילה:

    ביאור הלכה סימן א סעיף א ד"ה * ולא יתבייש
    * ולא יתבייש וכו' - עיין במ"ב בשם הב"י. דע דהב"י לא איירי כ"א במצוה שהוא עושה לעצמו ובני אדם מלעיגים עליו אז בודאי אין לו לחוש כלל ללעגם ולא יתקוטט עמהם אבל אם הוא עומד במקום שיש אפיקורסים המתקוממים על התורה ורוצים לעשות איזה תקנות בעניני העיר ועי"ז יעבירו את העם מרצון ה' ופתח בשלום ולא נשמעו דבריו בכגון זה לא דיבר הב"י מאומה ומצוה לשנאתם ולהתקוטט עמהם ולהפר עצתם בכל מה שיוכל ודהמע"ה אמר הלא משנאיך ד' אשנא ובתקוממיך אתקוטט תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו':

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  4. ... as well as the ones who actively engaged in helping him avoid facing any consequences for his actions, thereby taking a part in his activities....

    It's quite ironic how the CCHF is advertising their videos with a story of how a father was inspired by one of their videos to apologize to his son.... It would be nice if they would practice what they preach, and publicly apologize to Aaron Friedman...

    There are so many other Tisha B'Av inspirational venues, that are free, and that are tocho k'baro, that I wonder how many people will actually watch their introduction....

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  5. Agree about CCHF. They lost me a number of years ago, when they decided to go to bat for a convicted murderer in Florida who was scheduled to be executed for his crimes. Fortunately, that organization (and all the others that joined that ignorant circus) lost that battle.

    Until that point, I was a supporter of their mission. No more....they apparently have lost sight of the mission.

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  6. Shame on you Jack Korn. Rabbi Eidensohn should continue the good work and not let go. Were not looking for scandals. Were looking for truth and to expose false.

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  7. CCHF is talking about on תשעה באב on opening the door. Is that a code word for open orthodoxy??

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  8. In the leaders of our generation, this is relevant to *us and is happening in our times*.

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  9. Rabbi Eidensohn, please don't stop! As long as there still those who bemoan the abominations committed in our midst us there is still some hope for the redemption of Klal Yisroel.(See Yechezkiel 9:4)

    There are those who try to discourage you, saying, " יארכו הימים ואבד כל חזון " Move on, they say! Get over it and move on! Cut it out already! I say " חזק ואמץ! " More power to you.

    Rabbi, you were aptly named Daniel, for like your namesake you fear the Rock of Ages more than than you would fear a den of lions.

    How dare anyone compare you to that miserable site, FM! That cretin attempted to tear down both the Torah and its sages, challilah, while the intrepid Eidensohn brothers uphold Koved Hatorah and the sanctity of our mesorah.

    Finally, if not for your struggle there shall come a time when someone will suggest a shidduch, and the first question will not be "At what Yeshivah/Seminary did he/she study?", but rather "Is he/she מותר לבוא בקהל ?

    May we all be Zoche to see the redemption of Tzyon..

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  10. Enough lashon hora. Sorry Mr eidonsohn but u don't do this lishaim shamyaim

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  11. Is it fortunate that a mentally disabled man was killed?

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  12. The reading for the 9th of Av morning Jeremiah calls the people “For they are all adulterers, A band of rogues”:

    “Oh, to be in the desert, At an encampment for wayfarers! Oh, to leave my people, To go away from them— For they are all adulterers, A band of rogues. They bend their tongues like bows; They are valorous in the land For treachery, not for honesty; They advance from evil to evil. And they do not heed Me —declares the Lord. Beware, every man of his friend! Trust not even a brother! For every brother takes advantage, Every friend is base in his dealings. One man cheats the other, They will not speak truth; They have trained their tongues to speak falsely; They wear themselves out working iniquity. You dwell in the midst of deceit. In their deceit, they refuse to heed Me —declares the Lord” (Jeremiah 9:1-5).

    Sounds like:

    מלבי"ם מיכה פרק ז

    (ו) כי בן מנבל אב. עד שגם צאצאי בטן יקומו על הוריהם שזה מורה על תכלית הנבוכה והשחתת העם, עד שיופסק כל קשר אהבה ואחוה, וכ"ש שלא ימצא שלום המדיני ביניהם:

    The Malbim says on “For son spurns father, Daughter rises up against mother, Daughter-in-law against mother-in-law— A man’s own household Are his enemies”: “Until even the offspring from the womb will rise against their parents. This shows the perplexing aim and corruption of the people. Until will end all connection of love and harmony. All the more, there will not be peace of the state among them.”

    May I tell here what I sent to the NYS court today?:

    1.… I seek an Order for TIAA to stop paying Susan 55\% of my pension, now \$825 monthly….

    10. I quote the Bible:

    “If a man appears against another to testify maliciously and gives false testimony against him, the two parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests or magistrates in authority at the time, and the magistrates shall make a thorough investigation. If the man who testified is a false witness, if he has testified falsely against his fellow, you shall do to him as he schemed to do to his fellow. Thus you will sweep out evil from your midst; others will hear and be afraid, and such evil things will not again be done in your midst” (Deuteronomy 19:16-21).

    11. Susan and Myla Serlin testified maliciously that there was a March 1995 separation order and “There is no judgment of divorce and no other matrimonial action between the parties pending in this court or in any other court of competent jurisdiction.” On monetary matters, the theft of my pension, the \$10,000, my house etc. I have a right to seek redress before you.” …

    12. I ask that the Kings County Supreme Court calendar the present motion.

    Baba Kama 73b:

    “Does not this show that the confutation is the first step in a subsequent proof of an alibi? [And that after the accusation of an alibi was proved, the law of retaliation will apply despite the fact that their evidence had already been previously impaired.]”

    Confutation, the proving of the testimony false or in error is the first step. I’m trying to prove Susan’s lied. Friends, wish me luck.

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  13. Please, I have no intention of jumping into that discussion again. But I will ask you this: are your thoughts on capital punishment consistent across all demographics? Or are you only concerned about some supposed disability when Chabad touts the murderer as one of ours?

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  14. Why do you and others not do what should be done about RSK? He should NOT be treated as gadol while the disaster of his making exists. You want Rabbi Eidensohn to stop his obsession? Why don't you tell RSK (Jr and Sr) to undo the embarrassment to the legacy of the grandfather/father Reb Yaakov Kaminetzsky? I don't agree with Rabbi Eidensohn on certain things (how can he think Hillary is better than Trump?!) but when it comes to a continuing boosha on Klal Yisroel of a married woman committing adultery through the corruption of a "gadol" we should NOT be silent! RSK also caused tzar to a widow when he was asked by R. Peretz Steinberg to write Lashon Harah against the minyan she was attending because the YOUNG ISRAEL "rabbi" would not let her in the building.
    THESE ARE THE SAME TYPE OF "LEADERS" WHO STOOD BY AND LET BAR KAMTZA BE MURDERED IN PUBLIC. BAR KAMTZA WAS PUBLICLY HUMILIATED WHICH WAS TANTAMOUNT TO BEING MURDERED. TODAY WE HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF "RABBIS" AS THE LEADERS YESHAYAHU SPOKE ABOUT. HYPOCRITES WHO TRAMPLE ON JUSTICE! We should be crying that RSK is on the big screen instead of begging forgiveness from Aharon Friedman.

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  15. Martin Grossman was a cold-blooded killer who shot a woman in the back of her head. That he was Jewish was irrelevant. He deserved to be executed.

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  16. That he was Jewish makes me take a double look at his case. The fact he was dumber than a door knob makes me wonder what you're thinking

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  17. I think that capital punishment should exist. As a deterrent only. I also think that prosecutoral overreach is real.
    I obviously believe that when a person's mental capacity is called into question, the death penalty probably not the answer.
    Lastly, the fact that he's Jewish IS an issue for me. that's because my room for empathy isn't that great, believe it or not, and stories such as these forces me to reconsider my usual stance of indifference.

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  18. That his being dumb was no excuse for what he did. He viciously beat then murdered someone. End of story.

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  19. Rsk is a bigger gadol than all u put together, move on!

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  20. Why don't my comments post ?

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  21. Politically IncorrectAugust 15, 2016 at 10:21 AM

    Al pi Torah, Martin Grossman was not liable for the death penalty for a plethora of reasons: there were no kosher witnesses, killing a goy, though not permitted or encouraged, also is a disqualification for him from being a candidate for the death penalty, only the Sanhedrin has the authority to put him to death (and dina d'malchusa does not apply here, I forgot why, but maybe moe can help me with this one:) ) etc...., thereby putting a Jew who is about to be executed under the 'umbrella' of the mitzvah of "lo sa'amod al dam rai'achoh" by the positive absence of a true Torah obligation to execute him al pi din. This should be simple, though I have seen a teshuva from the Chasam Sofer to this effect.

    And to boot (although it should be simple from learning the Gemaros in Masechta Sanhedrin), the Skulener Rebbe and Rav Yitzchok Tovia Weiss, Av Bais Din of Yerusholayim, signed a letter that he falls under the mitzvah of pidyon sh'vuyim, where no GODOL (for real) of their caliber ever came out to the contrary. ....obviously, because the gedolim know these fundamental dinim in Yiddishkeit.

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  22. Politically IncorrectAugust 15, 2016 at 10:31 AM

    He deserved it? Halachic sources, please. .... see what I wrote to Daniel. ..

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  23. the non-Jewish society has an obligation to make laws and we have an obligation not to undermine them. Rabbi Eliezar Ben Rav Shimon arrested Jews for robbery - even though he knew that they would be crucified.

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  24. this has nothing to do with a Torah judicial system. If you look at simon beis in Choshen Mishpat - people can be executed for tikun olam. One of the requirements of tikun olam is that the nations of the world have a legal system. They have the right to use capital punishment. You are mixing apples and oranges. Jews are not supposed to undermine the system.

    Similarly someone who is viewed as rodef - driving without a license, making counterfeit money etc etc - can be turned over to the secular authorities to stop them - even if they end up getting a punishment which is not what the Torah prescribes for such transgressions.

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  25. Politically IncorrectAugust 15, 2016 at 12:05 PM

    Does not fit with that Chasam Sofer. Besides, even if non Jews do have a right to execute capitol punishment, that does not take away our din of "lo sa'amod al dam rai'achoh ". ...

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  26. but it is clearly Rav Moshe Feinstein and others including the Rambam

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  27. RDE already answered you. I will just add that certain 'godols' (I'll skip the CAPS, thank you) used your way of thinking to dismiss sexual abuse allegations against children (kosher witnesses, koton, not arayos according to Torah, and more).

    This type of reasoning is dangerous, which is precisely what the SA addresses.

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  28. because you haven't written anything other than name calling comments. If you say something more intelligent and informative than "you are wrong" "my gadol is bigger than your gadol" "all you say is lashon harah" than I will be glad to approve you comments

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  29. The very last thing you want to say is he was not eligible for the death penalty because his victim was a goy. Any arguments those who wanted to save him wanted to make that conformed to other liberal arguments against the death penalty were fair game. That they didn't work makes the whole endeavor moot. The question now is what should be done about William Harry Meece?

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  30. You've said a mouthful of nothing.

    1) So you're OK with capital punishment.
    2) Prosecutorial overreach? Virtually every jurisdiction has exhaustive appeals, which usually take years, as they did in the FL case. Are you claiming the entire system is tainted? Then why defend capital punishment??
    3) Shouldn't the court determine whether a mental capacity defense is legitimate? Didn't this FL case meet that standard? How did you gain such expertise on this defendant....from CCHF flyers?

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  31. 1, in concept, yes. Take it off the table is a bad idea
    2, I'm sure you're a smart fella, if you research the subject the way I have you'd come to the same conclusion.
    3, they saw it, and ignored it. It doesn't make it right.
    4, it was a famous story because there were cops involved.
    He's not chabad. He's a yid. A little empathy won't hurt you.

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  32. Look my friend, maybe you missed my point. If everyone on the sidelines has a better handle on that case than the exhaustive court process that handled it, then the court process is useless. And if you believe that, it would be only rational to - at the very least - take state-sanctioned homicide off the table.

    Please check your mirror when you weigh in on another's empathy. I've been thinking about Grossman's victim and her family all along. Judaism mandates us not to be מרחם על אכזרים. Please review your studies.

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  33. Politically IncorrectAugust 16, 2016 at 8:30 PM

    Let me ask you something else: did anybody with the stature of the two gedolim who signed a declaration to save him: Yitzchok Tovia Weiss from the Eidah HaChareidis (whom was used here as part of the proof against the Tamar Epstein heter,) a d the Skulener Rebbe, project your kind of view?

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  34. Politically IncorrectAugust 16, 2016 at 8:32 PM

    It is the last thing I want to say, to the world or among Shomrei Torah?

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  35. Politically IncorrectAugust 16, 2016 at 9:13 PM

    Regarding #2, I recall that his cell mates were bribed with leniency on their case if they get him to make a statement.

    Prosecutorial overreach was definitely at play in the Rubashkin case, in the case of the 3 Chassidish boys arrestedin Japan a while ago for transporting drugs, the prosecutor had no argument, just that he didn't want them to be freed. Why are we to expect otherwise in the criminal court?

    Then again, I was in court.why

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  36. Politically IncorrectAugust 16, 2016 at 9:21 PM

    "Judaism mandates us not to be merachem al achzorim. Please review your studies. "

    Using our own barometer of rachmanus without the guidelines of Da'as Torah and halacha leaves us *clueless* as to where rachmanus should apply. Looking in the Torah, who Chazal say that Its ways are *darkei noam, gives us direction.

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  37. Two wrongs don't make one right
    Ultimately, Jewish Law handles Capital punishments very severely when dealing an individual severe mental deficiencies, the process should reflect that.

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  38. You can keep such a statement just within the Shomrei Torah? I'd like to remind you that Rabbi Hershel Schachter has gotten into hot water for remarks he made that ended up in public.

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  39. Look, I don't believe having a discussion with you is going to be worthwhile. In this very thread, you've quoted Halacha utterly out of context...and were called on it. You even seem to think in America 2016 a Jew who 'only' kills a goy should be dealt with leniently.

    Whatever Daas Torah you follow, it is sure to lead to the opposite of נועם, at least based on your contributions in this thread.

    And as an aside, why did the two rabbis you've been quoting as gedolim in this thread need to inject themselves in this case? One of them is in Israel, and may know little to nothing about American jurisprudence. Just wondering.

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  40. I'm just curious if u care about god

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  41. Politically IncorrectSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:31 PM

    "As an aside, why did the two rabbis you've been quoting. .....and may know little to nothing. ................"........so who does that leave as an authority? .........You???

    Good Morning, welcome to DA'AS TORAH
    ......to have a conversation that you call "worthwhile".....

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  42. Politically IncorrectSeptember 5, 2016 at 4:16 AM

    You mean the 'heter' to beat up a man for a get meusah?

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  43. Politically IncorrectSeptember 5, 2016 at 4:30 AM

    Thinking about that comment for weeks: Who knows what he had them arrested for? Not sure we should pasken dinai nefoshos from Agadeta....

    Again, what *truly* respected man d'omrim of the stature of the Skulener Rebbe and Rav Yitzchok Tovia Weiss hold of your opinion?

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  44. I gather you never learned the gemora?

    BM(83a) R. Eleazar, son of R. Simeon, once met an officer of the [Roman] Government who had been sent to arrest thieves,9 ‘How can you detect them?’ he said. ‘Are they not compared to wild beasts, of whom it is written, Therein [in the darkness] all the beasts of the forest creep forth?’10 (Others say, he referred him to the verse, He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den.)11 ‘Maybe,’ [he continued,] ‘you take the innocent and allow the guilty to escape?’ The officer answered, ‘What shall I do? It is the King's command.’ Said the Rabbi, ‘Let me tell you what to do. Go into a tavern at the fourth hour of the day.12 If you see a man dozing with a cup of wine in his hand, ask what he is. If he is a learned man, [you may assume that] he has risen early to pursue his studies; if he is a day labourer he must have been up early to do his work; if his work is of the kind that is done at night, he might have been rolling thin metal.13 If he is none of these, he is a thief; arrest him.’ The report [of this conversation] was brought to the Court, and the order was given: ‘Let the reader of the letter become the messenger.’14 R. Eleazar, son of R. Simeon, was accordingly sent for, and he proceeded to arrest the thieves. Thereupon R. Joshua, son of Karhah, sent word to him, ‘Vinegar, son of wine!15 How long will you deliver up the people of our God for slaughter!’ Back came the reply: ‘I weed out thorns from the vineyard.’ Whereupon R. Joshua retorted: ‘Let the owner of the vineyard himself [God] come and weed out the thorns.’

    R. Eleazar, son of R. Simeon, once met an officer of the [Roman] Government who had been sent to arrest thieves,9 ‘How can you detect them?’ he said. ‘Are they not compared to wild beasts, of whom it is written, Therein [in the darkness] all the beasts of the forest creep forth?’10 (Others say, he referred him to the verse, He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den.)11 ‘Maybe,’ [he continued,] ‘you take the innocent and allow the guilty to escape?’ The officer answered, ‘What shall I do? It is the King's command.’ Said the Rabbi, ‘Let me tell you what to do. Go into a tavern at the fourth hour of the day.12 If you see a man dozing with a cup of wine in his hand, ask what he is. If he is a learned man, [you may assume that] he has risen early to pursue his studies; if he is a day labourer he must have been up early to do his work; if his work is of the kind that is done at night, he might have been rolling thin metal.13 If he is none of these, he is a thief; arrest him.’ The report [of this conversation] was brought to the Court, and the order was given: ‘Let the reader of the letter become the messenger.’14 R. Eleazar, son of R. Simeon, was accordingly sent for, and he proceeded to arrest the thieves. Thereupon R. Joshua, son of Karhah, sent word to him, ‘Vinegar, son of wine!15 How long will you deliver up the people of our God for slaughter!’ Back came the reply: ‘I weed out thorns from the vineyard.’ Whereupon R. Joshua retorted: ‘Let the owner of the vineyard himself [God] come and weed out the thorns.’

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