Y referred to here is a convicted pedophile classified as a level three offender. I have not mentioned his name because he has threatened me with legal action for mentioning his name and his crimes - which are on the public record - in the sex offenders registry and newspaper accounts.
As Rabbi Horowitz notes this is an outrageous situation where people are not allowed to inform others against possible harm to their children. Level three means there is high risk of re-offending and that there is a threat to public safety. Please support Rabbi Horowitz.
===========================Gloves Off!
Our Trial is Your Trial
 |
For the first time in my life, I will be a defendant in a court of law, with my trial set to begin this coming November in Israel.
My crime?
I am being sued for using Twitter to warn residents of Har Nof, Jerusalem, that Y., a convicted registered level-3 sex offender, who served 13 months in prison for seven counts of sexual abuse in the second degree and two counts of endangering the welfare of a child, relocated to that neighborhood in Israel. The NYS Division of Criminal Justice website describes a Level 3 registered sex offender, their highest level, as one who has a "high risk of repeat offense and a threat to public safety exists".
We did not launch a public campaign until now, as we were hoping that sanity would prevail in the judicial system and the lawsuit would be dismissed by the courts. However, not only is this lawsuit continuing, but recently, Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn, a child safety advocate in Israel, is also being threatened with legal action for slander, after posting online similar warnings about Y.. If you care about the personal safety of children, these lawsuits should trouble you deeply. For make no mistake. If these outrageous lawsuits are permitted to continue, fewer and fewer people will be posting warnings when convicted sex offenders move near you or those you love.
Another troubling component of Y.. case is that it follows the pattern of the State of Israel welcoming and later protecting (either knowingly or carelessly) people who are convicted or accused sex offenders like Avrohom Mondrowitz or more recently Malka Leifer, all three of whom fled to Israel from their native countries to avoid prosecution.
With all this in mind, we respectfully ask that you join us in this effort we are launching to convince elected and appointed officials in Israel and the Israeli press to:
1) Request that the Justice Department immediately dismiss the frivolous lawsuit brought by Y. against me, and not permit any lawsuits of this nature moving forward.
2) Encourage responsible information flow and publication about convicted sex offenders to local parents and schools.
3) Conduct sex offender background checks on all people who apply for citizenship, and expeditiously reject those who are wanted for sex crimes in their native countries.
4) Ideally, a longer-term goal would be to enact legislation in Israel to protect children similar to Megan's Laws in the United States, where convicted sex offenders are required to register with local police and to notify law enforcement authorities whenever they move to a new location.
Below are email addresses of important agencies in Israel related to Justice and Immigration/Absorption, those for Yediyot Achronot and The Jerusalem Post as well as my email address, to enable me to print and bring your emails to elected officials here and in Israel.
To show your support for this effort, simply forward this email and cut and paste these email addresses in the "To" section of your email, perhaps adding a personal note.
Alternatively, you can compose your own email to those addresses or use this sample email text if that is more convenient.
Subject Line:
Protect Our Children; Not Convicted Sex Offenders
Body of Email:
I am deeply disturbed that Y., a convicted, registered, level-3 sex offender in New York State, is being permitted to sue child safety advocate Rabbi Yakov Horowitz in Israeli courts for slander, for having warned residents of Har Nof, Jerusalem, that he had relocated there and was wanted for outstanding charges in the United States.
This is a travesty of justice and I respectfully request that this frivolous lawsuit be immediately dismissed. Children in Israel will not be safe if child advocates are intimidated into silence by this type of outrageous lawsuit.
Additionally, Israel cannot and should not become a place of refuge for convicted, registered sex offenders. I respectfully request that all people applying for Aliya be given a simple background check for sex offenses, and that all avenues be explored for Y. to be returned to the United States to face justice for outstanding abuse charges.
As a longer-term goal, I would encourage the Knesset to enact legislation similar to Megan's Laws in the United States, to mandate the registration of known Israeli sex offenders and the publication of their whereabouts.
Here are some phone numbers you can call:
- Israel Ministry of Justice, 972-2-646-6666, 8 for English, then 144
- Ministry of Aliya and Immigrant Absorption 972-3-973-3333
- United States Embassy in Israel 972-2-621-4555
Thank you very much for your participation in this effort.
Yakov Horowitz
P.S. If you are wondering why a registered, convicted sex offender would bring attention to himself by suing me, please read Bullies Bully and Abusers Abuse. It's all there and there are some helpful links for parents there as well.
Finally; here are 3 free videos that can help you have effective, research-based child safety/abuse prevention talks with your children: Safety Video #1, Safety Video #2, andSafety Video #3
© 2016 Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, all rights reserved
==================The following is an email sent out in defense of the pedophile's lawsuit
From: Thetan Group-JW <weinbergjthetangroup@gmail.com>
==================The following is an email sent out in defense of the pedophile's lawsuit
From: Thetan Group-JW <
Subject: Fwd: From Yona Weinberg
To:
Defendant Yakov Horowitz is telling the public that he's being sued for publishing public information, when he really knows he's being sued for telling lies about the Plaintiff. This has nothing to do with his affiliations or hobbies or the like. This is HIS case and HIS case alone. This is about a man who is using his social media accounts to spread lies about a private citizen. For those who understand Modern Hebrew, this is actually stated in the Yediot article Defendant Horowitz displays on his website [that he won't let you read].
Only a week or two ago, Plaintiff's motion to amend the original complaint to include Defendant Horowitz's more recent lie about Plaintiff's fleeing the United States was approved. The motion was approved because Defendant Horowitz hasn't stopped lying about the Plaintiff and the nature of this case since he was sued. He just did it on Tuesday, 13 July, and Defendant Horowitz is proud of it!
Planning a move to Israel can take almost a year. Plaintiff entered the State of Israel at least twice in 2014 prior to settling here in September that same year. There are so many people, from Israeli bureaucrats in New York to employees at the shipping companies used, who can testify that Plaintiff's move to this country was planned and prepared for well in advance. And, as per the prior understanding of 42 U.S.C. § 16913(a), there was always notification every step of the way.
On a side note, Defendant Horowitz can also be accused of being disingenuous with his own supporters. On September 21st of last year, Defendant Horowitz states that he is on this Crusade (this is the Holy Land) because he is following his Posek (Rabbi), Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky of Philadelphia, despite the findings of modern science and real research on this topic. Yet, on October 21st, Defendant Horowitz defies his own Posek, who holds that even the Polio Vaccine is a hoax, by exhorting his readership of their religious responsibility to vaccinate their children. How does Defendant Horowitz know when to rely on Science and when to rely on his own Rabbi? Please see: www.daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/10/rav-shmuel-kaminetsky-claims-that.html
What is even more disingenuous is that Defendant Horowitz publicly supports the blogger referenced above, while this same blogger hasn't stopped criticizing Rabbi Kaminetsky about a different and more serious issue for several months. This particular blogger has gone so far as to accuse Defendant Horowitz's Posek (Rabbi) of being like Korach, bringing more Mamzerim into this world, and being comparable to Esau who was also not concerned about adultery. At what point did these two Keyboard Warriors agree that "business is business" and cast aside respect for the Torah and its teachers (and, lehavdil, Science) in order to achieve their potential, common goals of self-promotion and getting attention?
Defendant Yakov LashonHorowitz is not being sued because he is publishing public information. Defendant Yakov LashonHorowitz is being sued for telling lies about the Plaintiff.
If you believe self-promotion is more important than telling the truth, then this is YOUR case. If you believe that it's okay to talk out of both sides of your mouth, then this is most definitely YOUR case. If you believe getting attention is more important than respecting the Torah, then this is most definitely YOUR case. If you don't believe in the Rule of Law, this is most definitely YOUR case.
Please see the attached. If you can't understand it, please show it to someone who understands Hebrew.
"Please see the attached. If you can't understand it, please show it to someone who understands Hebrew."
ReplyDeleteRDE, can you post the attachments he attached?
It is outrageous that Israel's Beit Mishpat Gavoha laTzedek should entertain such an obvious frivolous lawsuit against someone in trying to protect the public at large from harms way. When you had a palestinian trying to board a bus full of innocent passengers with pipe bombs in his backpack, you labeled him a Hero, in pulling the terrorist away and wrestle him to the ground preventing mass killings and bloodshed. How, and why is this any different??? Did you forget what happened when in Milchemet Yom Kippur, how Golda Meir ignored the warnings of an oncoming attack by the Egyptian Army? How many unnecessary Jewish lives did it cost?
ReplyDeleteA child molestor that has been labeled as a level 3 sex offender by the most civilized laws for Justice in the world ought to be *considered*, and not be *blackmailed* with such frivolous lawsuits. In any Democratic Country, it's citizens that have the right to be protected by it's own laws from harms way and the obligation of the authorities in doing so. How is this loose cannon weaponized with the capability of mass Destruction on the young, vulnerable, and frail be let roaming free on the streets of Jerusalem, putting them all in harms way??? Such has been the laws of Sodom and Amohrrah in bringing the Protectors of society to so called Justice and harboring the perpetrators such as the Shmendricks (not his real name) and the Aussies (not her real name) in giving them haven. This is the epitome of *VeHirshiu es haTzadik and VeHitzdiku es hoRosho*. How could you? How dare you? Wherein lies your Justice, Wherein lies your decency? Where is your Sechel haYoshor?
How in the world did you send Interpol to bring back Shmerland (not his real name) all the way from Idi Amin's Dadda-land to Israel but not release those notorious mega molestors that have practically killed dozens of Yiddish kinderlech to bring them to Justice in their own countries? Is this what you call Hen Tzedek? MIshpat Tzedek? Is this what you call Torah Achas yihye lachem? One Justice for ALL PEOPLE? Don't you know that what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander??? Huh?
Do us all a favor and You let the Advocate and Protectors of Yiddishe Kinder go on and stop Bullying around, if you only know what's good for you. Haven't you learnt, ki hi chochmaschem ubinaschem le'einei hoamim? You are the light unto the world. Time to wake up, AND LET MY PEOPLE GO! AND LET MY CHILDREN BE FREE!
It is known that at the end of the day, the victims of such offenders commit suicide, while going OTD in between. They have the children's blood on their hands, vekoil achinu tsoakim eleinu min ha'ada'ama. Enough is enough. Every other day, we have our young throwing themselves off the G.W. Bridge, Strangulation in air shafts, Overdose, throw themselves onto train tracks, vechol minei misas meshunos upironiyos. Gevald!!! Ad mosay. I therefore put it you, The Justice System of Israel, why are you considering yourselves in being an ENABLER???
These were the attachments from the plaintiffs e-mail (shown in the post above):
ReplyDeleteWhile the idea of a pedophile suing those who expose them is upsetting, I find it hard to find any sympathy for Yanky Horowitz, with or without his gloves on.
ReplyDelete1) Why did he send out that snide tweet about non-kosher candies? What was his real intention? If it was to protect children, then he would logically consider the reasons why people were not afraid of this Y. He would then work toward having people understand the dangers... He would teach people how to fish. Instead, he sent out a tweet attacking Har Noff parents at their core, insinuating that they mistakenly care about their children's spirituality, but are careless about their emotional (and physical) safety. This stinks. It doesn't sound as if the safety of Har Noff children was Yanky's only concern, or even his primary concern. He was going to slam those backwards chareidim!
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man how to fish, and you feed him for life
2) Why did Yanky Horowitz sue the author and publisher of "Talking About Private Places", an excellent book for parents to read with their children, in order to protect them? Was it because he was concerned about children's safety, or did he fear competition to his own book? Is Yanky out for children, or is he out for himself?
BTW, Yanky lost, and the book is very successful.
3) Yanky has written some really disgusting articles over the years. If there was a story of a few troubled teens getting themselves into, you know, trouble, then Yanky used this as an excuse to attack the way-of-life of the community where these kids grew up. As if there isn't an equally as bad, or much worse!, problem with certain teens from every community. This was not a one-time event; this a continuous pattern spanning many years.
Sorry, but I find it hard to sympathize with Mr. Horowitz. Let him clean up his act.
Sounds like you don't like him. I think you are reading too much into what he said
ReplyDeleteHave a look at this tweet and see the article it links to. Perhaps then you will see why Rabbi Horowitz said the line about the candies.
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/yakovhorowitz/status/420160507048648704
If for whatever reason you can't see the link, here is a "sound-bite"
"Shame on us, for allowing people like Avrohom Mondrowitz, and others like him, to live peacefully in our communities while their victims live tortured lives. Please excuse my sarcasm, but lately, when people ask me what they ought to be doing to rally support in their communities to keep our children safe from predators, I occasionally tell them, tongue-in-cheek, that it might be a good idea to spread rumors that the pedophiles are distributing non-kosher candy to their children while molesting them. Who knows; maybe that might get people to take notice."
Why did Yanky Horowitz sue the author and publisher of "Talking About Private Places"
ReplyDeleteIsn't arkaos assur?
The Halacha may seem clear to you, but you did not present it clearly. Rabbi Eidensohn is correct about warning people and “Lo Taamod”. But RDE stopped short of completing the Halacha that it is nevertheless forbidden to harass an alleged molester just for the sake of harassing him/her.
ReplyDeleteThere are two issues at hand: (1) protecting potential victims and (2) punishing/harassing/damaging the alleged offender.
Only a Beis Din has the authority to punish/harass/damage/injure anybody. And this is after hearing the case from both sides. A private individual who knows nothing more than what he sees in the papers or heard from “reliable sources” who know nothing more than what they read in the papers has no such authority.
We have a halalcha about all allegations of “למיחש בעי” which means we can take necessary defensive measures to protect potential victims. This is where RDE is fully correct. But this does not justify going beyond the defensive measures and to take offensive measures that are harassing and injurious to the alleged offender.
The Chofetz Chaim clearly states as two of the seven conditions for malshinus that: #4 – שלא יגדל העולה יותר ממה שהיא and #7 – שלא יסובב על ידי הסיפור היזק להנידון יותר מכפי הדין.
With his appalling tweets Rabbi Horowitz has violated these two conditions l’mehadrin min ha’mehadrin. Halachically, this is not Lashon Hara, it is Motzi Shem Ra of the highest order. Rabbi Horowitz has clearly overstepped his bounds halachically and deserves to be sued for it. Instead of crying to the world how he was “only warning the residents of Har Nof” and only stated what is already on the public record, he clearly seems to advocate the malicious and halachically abominable practice of “spreading [false] rumors”.
A Chillul Hashem is when one says’ “Ploni shelamad Torah, kama mechuarim ma’asave” and this is the only thought I have about Rabbi Horowitz and his suggestion to spread rumors and his appalling damaging tweets.
At this point let me tell whoever is reading this that I live in Har Nof two buildings away from the subject. For one thing, we do not need Rabbi Horowitz to give us warnings, we are aware that he is here and he is not the only alleged offender that we have [had to] contend with. Secondly, to tell people “Treat him like a terrorist with a machete” is not only exceedingly poor taste for us people who live on Agassi but it is tantamount to saying: “He should be shot on sight”. I agree with the plaintiff that nothing could be more damaging. Another thing is that the YW has not made any trouble for anybody and certainly has not handed out candies of any kind to anybody.
Lastly, whether one likes it or not, Eretz Yisroel is indeed an “ihr miklat” for people who want to come and make improvements on their past lives and that is how it should be. Prosecuting offenders will not help victims repair their lives. I have written about this extensively on my blog (http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/search/label/Malka%20Leifer). I am more sympathetic toward those kind of people than people like Rabbi Horowitz who are mechallel shem shamayim b’farhesia by unabashedly spreading false rumors and then to call the public for a silly email campaign to justify this travesty.
Incidentally, what kind of idiot does not send a Ktav Hagana to a lawsuit?
I think that Rabbi Horowitz has done a great deal of damage and the only way to fix it is to stop his insane email campaign and to face up to the fact that he has overstepped his bounds. He must publically apologize to YW for going overboard. After that, just stick with the facts.
P.S. If you would like to make this a guest post, you may. YH
His long article, and the comments he played to, just further prove my point.
ReplyDeletehow?
ReplyDeleteThe comparison to the person who sold treif meat to all of Monsey, for many years.
ReplyDelete1) He ran away to Israel, just like Mondrowitz, Liefer etc. So, is there truly a valid comparison to make a complaint?
2) If the reason why people weren't going after pedophiles is because they
A) Couldn't believe it's really true - didn't have "proof"...
B) Were unaware of the seriousness of it's harm
then his comparison is disingenuous. Treif is clearly wrong and harmful, if one is a believing Jew. How do you attack people who don't know? Instead, he should be seeking to educate and raise awareness. Additionally, he is making it sound as if the treif guy running out of town is a bad thing. It isn't!
3) If this article had been only one where he does what he did, he could get a pass for going over the line on an emotional issue. But in reality, this is just another article that fits right into his pattern of many, many articles where he bashes rabbis and chareidim. Or like his recent facebook post where he attacks Monsey Chasidim for having "too many" kids, God forbid.
You couldn't be anymore wrong. Level 3 is Rodef lechol hadeot at all times. He is a weaponized lone wolf offender, ready to pounce at any moment when the situation and place presents itself. Ushmartem es nafshosechem is to be upheld and you are obligated to decree, Shual baderech, ve'Ari birchovos, to protect your young on the wings of Eagles so no harm afflicts them.
ReplyDeleteIn the Torah we find punishment and protection of potential victims go hand in hand. 1) Uviarto hora mikirbecho, 2) velo yezidun od. There is no need for a BD to stop a Rodef in his tracks, enough if the Mishtara already gave notice to be on your guard, and gedoilei haposkim ordered them jurisdiction. We are talking here about lo sa'amod al dam reacho, and pikuach nefesh, and informing residents to protect their young is yet a far cry from lehatsil be'echod mieivorov. Indeed, R' Ya'akov is doing a Kiddush Hashem, while the perpetrator committed a chilul haShem of Biblical proportions.
If you are mafkir the lives of your own children keeping them in harms way, that is your own problem, see mishnah of af al pi shechoval beatsmo potur. I suggest that you keep up with current events as of this very moment of what's going on in Tashbar, whether in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem, Bnei Brak, and all over Israel and anywhere on the Globe. This is what happens when you turn a blind eye in protecting the victims. An ounce of prevention is worth a Ton of cure. We need to fix the bridges instead of opening up more Hospitals. Yasher Kochacho R' Yanky Horovitz Shlit"a, Yofo dibarto ubeIto dibarto. vehamatsil nefesh achas miYisrael, keilu kiyem olam maleh. Keep up the excellent work, ubotiach ani bezos that haShems right hand will watch over you!!! Amen veAmen
There is no "Level 3" in Shulchan Aruch.
ReplyDeleteSo what? There is no child abuse and many other things
ReplyDeleteI don't know what you mean. Can you elaborate?
ReplyDeleteYH
Your looking for the chametz in all the wrong places. Raglayim ledovor is the halachic term, and kemakchol beshfoferet aka dovor betoch dovor the deadliest term and form aka Level 3. Nogea bedovor you can call level 1, if you will, veidach zil ugmor. Sound like the chelemer guy asked his rav if beer is chametz. He told him to hand over the siddur, and paskened him that it states in the brachah of Biur chametz befeirush, Alle Beer Chometz!
ReplyDeleteKi ani H' rofecho, it is a legitimate term/form of a diagnosis and description. The mishnah calls it "Harodef achar haZochor", you can call that level 3, kappish.
S"A prohibits child abuse under more expansive halachas that include it among other wrongdoing, rather than listing it as a separate law.
ReplyDeleteYechezkel Hirshman is correct but there is no use in trying to make valid points on this blog if they run counter to the thought police of the moderator and his cronies. I have no doubt that you chevra believe that you are working l'shem shamayim but there is a danger in this type of kan'as that you are blinded to. The mishkal ha'chasidus is a difficult one - and very dangerous when arrogance gets in the way.
ReplyDeleteWhat aspect of "child abuse" is missing?
ReplyDeleteWon't print anything critical? That's another symptom of the problem.
ReplyDeleteHonesty, thanks for standing up for the emes.
ReplyDeleteRDE please pass along to Honesty. Ty.
Where's the post? I didn't see it on his facebook.
ReplyDeleteThis is not what RAI calls Level 3. Kapish-nisht!
ReplyDeleteYH
What do you mean? Rabbi Eidensohn has posted Yechezkal Hirshamn's comments. He usually posts everyone's comments, even if they are critical of his viewpoints. Were you attacking people personally, or were you discussing - or even attacking! - issues?
ReplyDeletegoogle up NY law, fershteist
ReplyDeleteIt is the Mishnah that calls the shots!
ReplyDeleteMISHne-u-
ka PISH?
http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2016/07/for-frum-abuse-activists-its-open-for.html
ReplyDeleteI guess it was deleted.
What Mishnah do you have in mind?
ReplyDeleteI checked up plenty on the RAI. I am not sure you have. In short, the RAI (Risk Assessment Instrument) is an algorithm made up and maintained by law enforcement that is not subject to scrutiny by psychiatric standards. In addition it is assigned arbitrarily by judges just because they feel the offender "deserves it". It has been challenged many times and a recent review in NY City Bar Association (April 2003) approved an overhaul. It's a lot like the Calif. "3 strikes and out" law that has been shown to be severely flawed and is highly controversial.
ReplyDeleteIt is certainly anything but "Lechol Hadeos."
However, what is l'chol hadeos is that once a person has left any community (such as NY) on a permanent basis, he can no longer be considered a rodef there (in NY) L'Chol Ha"Deos because he is not being rodef anybody. As such, any motion to forcibly return him there and thereupon to be moser him to the authorities where he is no longer a threat is Moser l'chol hadeos! This is clear in Rambam (Rotzech 1:12) This is the "Law" that people who speak so eloquently as you do are supposed to obey.
It doesn't matter whether the RAI is in full agreement with psychiatric standards. It is enough that they indicate a significant concern for future danger to others. That concern is enough to take action. Even if it needs an overhall it doesn't mean that it is not significant for triggering a halachic approval to take protect actions.
ReplyDeleteYou have a major problem of finding a minor issue and generalizing on your own. Please cite halachic authorities that agree with you. Or are you claiming that you are a recognized halachic authority?
citing the Rambam has nothing to do with extradition law. Please cite sources that it is prohibited to extradite a Jew to another country
רמב"ם הלכות רוצח ושמירת הנפש פרק א הלכה יב
רדף אחר ערוה ותפשה ושכב והערה אף על פי שלא גמר ביאתו אין ממיתין אותו עד עמדו בדין, רדף אחר ערוה והיו אחרים רודפין אחריו להצילה ואמרה להם הניחוהו כדי שלא יהרגני אין שומעין לה אלא מבהילין אותו ומונעין אותו מלבעול, באיבריו, ואם אינן יכולין למנעו באיבריו אפילו בנפשו כמו שביארנו.
I have asked you a number of times to cite competent rabbis who agree with you. Your deductions are far removed from the halachic process.
Please tell me the source for you claims.
ReplyDeleteIf a murderer escaped NY ( and he is believed a danger to kill again) and he fled to Israel. He is no longer in NY - but an extradition to NY will in fact protect Israelis
If a child molester flees to Israel from Australia - and extradition would protect Israeli citizens.
And even if there is no present danger - who says you have to ignore the law of the land.
You might read the tshuva of Rav Moshe Feinstein regarding violating Shabbos to save a goy's life. Even though the Mishna Berura says not to - but Rav Moshe insists that it is necessary - why? The logic applies here also.
You're comparing the Rambam Yechezkal cited as no longer applying similar to the Mishna Brura you mentioned?
ReplyDeleteplease explain what your question is
ReplyDeleteThanks. Too bad no screenshot.
ReplyDeleteI wrote about this at length in my own blog. All of my sources were presented in my June 15 post: http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/06/mesira-xiii-thinking-like-jew.html
ReplyDeleteAs I write there, I believe that extradition outside of EY is forbidden no matter what. If you need to protect Israeli citizens, lock them up here where they can be treated as a Jew. There is no hetter to send anybody out. See the post for more details.
>> And even if there is no present danger - who says you have to ignore the law of the land<<
The law of which land?
If you reference a teshuva from Rav Moshe, ZTL, it helps to to reference it's location.
My source for extradition is YD 267:85. Even though it refers to sending an Eved Canaani to servitude, I don't see why it is not a Kal V'chomer to send a Yisroel gamur to incarceration.
ReplyDeleteAs far as my general position, as I have written numerous times in my blog (for example: http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/02/mesira-xii-no-chochma-no-tevuna-and-no.html).
There I illustrate that I am merely applying the clearly stated directives of the Chofetz Chaim. If you think he would pasken otherwise, do what you think.
In terms of rabbis (competent or otherwise) who agree with me, let me just say this. I don't need to be a rabbi or have smicha or anything to "paken" l'chumra on bein adam l'chaveiro. Yes, I may come across as being "machmir" on mesira, rodef, and Lo Tasgir. I think everybody should. Nobody has to listen to me. I wrote clearly in my keynote post on Malka Leifer (http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/06/mesira-xiv-we-have-to-kill-beastie.html - at the very end) that you can think whatever you want of my opinion, but ignore me at your own risk.
Go ahead and extradite and mahsser if you think it will bring a yeshua. I am not the one that you wil have to answer to for it.
what are your qualifications to determine whether someone who has repeated molested is not a danger?! Your reasoning about incarceration contradicts the opinion of major poskim that there is no problem sending a person to jail. It contradicts the Rambam, it contradicts Rav Eliashiv etc etc.
ReplyDeletebottom line what you are doing is far from the halachic process. Contrary to your assertions this is not a baseless put down. It is simply describing reality. Not aware of any posek who would pasken on this serious issue in the sloppy way you have. And it is clear you don't know any posek who would either.
your writing on this subject is comparable to you doing brain surgery and saying "well no one forced anyone to let me do it."
I never wrote anywhere that they are not a danger. Though I firmly believe that they are not an "imminent" danger which is what is required to give the label of Rodef. (You are forgetting that I live at 8 Agassi.)
ReplyDeleteThus, there is absolutely no reason not to call a din Torah to determine if they are a danger and if these measures are justified.
That said, I still firmly maintain that extradition to chu"l is out of the question. As I wrote in my post, we have plenty of wonderful Batei Din, kangaroo courts, and mehadrin prisons here in Eretz Yisroel.There is no need, and consequently, no hetter to send a Jew out of EY.
BTW, have you really read my posts? You do not seem to be knowledgable of what I have written or else, you just simply do not understand them.
I am willing to answer any questions and you can email me directly at: 1a7b.author@gmail.com
I have posted the sources a number of times. I have three books on Child Abuse where the sources are presented in translation.
ReplyDeleteI don't see what the importnace or the significance of a beis din ruling on these matters since whatever they say has no authority.
You remind me of the horrible teshuva written by Rav Menashe Klein about dealing with child abuse we he goes against the gedolim and insists that a beis din has to rule in every case. [it is in the archives just search for Rav Menashe Klein]
You don't go to a beis din to decide whether someone is a rodef. Nor do you go to a blogger who obviously is not knowledgable about the issues - either from the psychological or halachic point of view to decide what to do in these matters.
We will have to agree to disagree. I maintain that I am presenting the viewpoint of the Chofetz Chaim. Nobody has to agree with me, but as I wrote, if you plan to promote and or to participate in a campaign to extradite people away from EY for the purpose of mesira where they are certainly no longer a threat, do so at your own peril.
ReplyDeleteAn I am saying that you simple addressing an issue in a very sloppy scholarly way and are simply hiding behind the name of the Chofetz Chaim and the ominous statement "do so at your own peril". That is not the way halacha is dealt with. You want to claim you are a mashgiach who acknowledges his ignorance of halacha and just want to give mussar? You want to claim to be a prophet?
ReplyDeleteWe are dealling with issues of life and death. It is clear from your posts that you have no business publicizing your uninformed views on the subject. Find a recognized posek who has expressed his views on the matter and publicize that.
I am a ben-Torah. No more, no less.
ReplyDeleteI provide sources. You don't .
It's not me talking. It is the sources that I provide. You either agree with how I understand them or you don't. Simple as that.
All of your banter about "Halachic process" is jibberish.
yes it is obvious that you don't understand the halachic process despite calling yourself a ben Torah.
ReplyDeleteI have provided sources which you have simply ignored. You have provided nothing to justify your conclusions. Giving yourself the title of ben Torah doesn't allow you to make pronouncements about life and death issues without bothering to research the literature - both psychology and halacha. Writing rambling posts on a blog doesn't give you any authority nor does it indicate that you know what you are talking about.
Again I repeat - find yourself a genuine posek and ask him whether your views are correct. Ask him what sources he bases himself on and finally whether you can report his conclusions in his name.
I was just trying to understand that part of your comment.
ReplyDeleteI don't know which point of view is correct concerning the degree to which we need to be wary of such a person. But You are discussing the laws of lashon hora, which is a sin in which everyone falters. So an ex molester (hopefully ex) is standing up for himself that he was wronged with lashon hora. Is that the level of remorse we would like to expect from an ex molester? He is now the injured party?! Maybe Rabbi Horowitz was wrong, but isn't the ex offender far more wrong, or at least also wrong? So why is he so busy with Rabbi Horowitz's lashon hora and why is he so proudly standing up for his rights? I think it would do him more good to make a statement like this.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Horowitz Shlit'a,
I know what I have have done and I am full of shame and regret about it. I wish I would know how to properly repent. I wish I would know how I can somehow repair the damage I have done. I wish I could apologize powerfully enough to my victims that it would help to heal them. I know none of these. I don't want to be a dangerous person in society anymore. Please can we get together and maybe figure out a way that I can be rehabilitated in truth and thereby be rehabilitated in the eyes of the people.
Humbly yours,
..........
I bet that if he would do that and follow up along that sort of approach, it would eventually do better for his reputation than would a law suit.
No. Horowitz is attacking (and harassing) the "molester" - i.e., he is starting up. The "molester" is not attacking Horowitz. This is why Horowitz is wrong. The "molester" has a right to defend himself against Horowitz's attack. He does not owe Horowitz anything. He has no need to write "Humbly yours" letters to somebody who is harassing him.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, since he came to Har Nof there have been no complaints of misbehavior against him. There is no justification for Horowitz to follow him wherever he goes and incessantly harass him (and his family).
IMO, this lawsuit has merit and there was already a judgement against Rabbi Horowitz. As I said, if anything, Rabbi Horowitz needs to send a "humbly yours" letter to the "molester" and maybe he will drop the suit (after Horowitz compensates him for his expenses.)
this is utter nonsense. You know absolutely nothing about what is going and yet you are making pronouncements about what is moral and halacha etc etc etc. The molester does not need to defend himself . You are neither a navi or an expert or even involved in activities that would give you information to justify what you are claiming.
ReplyDeleteI think it is wonderful that you think that since you haven't heard anything so therefore there is nothing going on. Wow!!!!
I have always been astounded by clairvoyant people such as RDE who know exactly how much I know or don't know about a given issue.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your secret?
Aha. No need to be humble after doing what he did. He owes no apology. The onus is on all of us to swallow, bear it and grin. If anyone of us makes a peeps about it, then we are the attackers, and he is the injured party. Ok, as long as we are clear about the rules.
ReplyDeleteyou simply have to pay attention to what is written
ReplyDeleteSee Sanhedrin 73. Ve'eilu hein shemaitsilin aoison benafshon Harodef achar chaveiro lehorgo, Veachar hazochor....
ReplyDeletecrystal clear!
This means imminent danger. Not latent potential danger. This is what I ponted out from Rambam Rotzeach 1:12 and Ch"M 425:3.
ReplyDeleteI covered it in my blog post (and even used the term "crystal clear"): http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/06/mesira-xiii-thinking-like-jew.html
Now do yourself a favor and look up the Mishnah Sanhedrin 73. ...veHarodef achar hazochor. While at it, see also Sanhedrin 71: Borach ad shelo nigmar dino... veim mishenigmar dino... CHAYAV! A rotzeach changing his position does not change his chazaka. A rotzeach here is a Rotzeach there, everywhere and anywhere at anytime. More so, a Child molester or any molester for that matter, changing his postion does not change his chazaka anywhere in the world. No meshane shem, nor meshane mokom will change his Mazal and remains a Bar Ketolo all over the place. He is weaponized as a weapon of mass destruction, at moments notice ready to erupt anywhere like a volcano, anytime as soon as the opportunity and circumstances presents itself. He is a ticking mobile time bomb with his carry on baggage on his person, unless and until Bobbitized. Therefore, he is worthy of extradition and brought to Justice in order to protect the public at large anywhere in the world as of Pikuach Nefesh. Your logic of a person not in NY anymore where he has committed his crimes becomes healed by being meshane mokom meshane mazel holds no water. Malach hamoves, ma li hocho, ma li hosom! He is all about destruction, like a *snail* carrying his wherewithal concealed weapon, baggage and equipment at all times, no matter wherever his presence might be. My dear friend, this guy is like a volcano ready to erupt anywhere, without prior notice, anytime Lechol haDeos, and must be locked up for good and throw away the key, and Yes, Lechol haDeos!
ReplyDeleteFor your infromation, times have changed and the holy umbrella of so called messira in this recent World of a New Order has been put into mothballs. When you see a Rotzeach, you stop him in his mid tracks in whichever way possible and same goes for a Rodef achar haZochor. In this New World Order, you do not consult a Posek and take a risk of having a dagger struck into your heart. It is Halacha beyadua Lechol haDeos, that habo lehorgoch hashkem lehorgo! Can you imagine a scene of *Im Bemachteres yimotze haganav*, in need to call a Posek in middle of the night whether to call the Police because of Messira, or do away with the perpetrator right then and there? Before he knows it, he is dead meat! Venafshecho kodem, ubeIskei nefoshos onu askinan. There is no need nor time to be bodek the tzitzis whether he is wearing a tallis shekulo tcheles or potur beptil echod. Time is of the essence and therefore no questions asked.
See what happened to the Grand Butcher Epstein the Prodfather of all Prod's, they stung him with a FedSting, over n' out with no questions asked. Same applied in Israel with makle.. (not his real name), they went straight to the Mishtara, before those machers, fixers and Enablers had a chance to threaten the victims et al, and try to make it go away. The same happened now in (-elz TA not the real name) as well as in the other mosdos yet in progress. The trickeries of so called *Messira* is now Bypassed. Talmud remedies a Rotzeach that manages always to kill without witnesses, with machnissin oso tachas haKippa and do away with him, fershteist. And these are the changing times, my friend. You go straight to the Mishtara with no questions asked, so that the ENABLERS have no prayer!
Those two other notorious Mega Molesters, malka Aussie and shmendrekovits Usa (not their real names) are living on borrowed time. Sooner or later, their undeserved immunities will expire by divine intervention and will be brought to Justice as well. Ein eitzo ve'ein tvuno neged H', veono miponecho evrach. We are succeeding with bypassing the machers and fixers, vegam aleichem ta'avor kos hatarelo, and justice will be served, velo yezidun od! Amen veAmen!!!
It doesn't appear that you have read any of my posts, either. Let's assume you are correct – a villain there is a villain here and malach hamavos v'chulu, v'chulu...
ReplyDeleteStill, they are here now and not there. They are not being rodef anybody in NY or Australia. As such, al achas kamma v’kamma there is no hetter for Lo Tasgir to chu”l nor for mesira overseas. Go send them to jail here. Kol Hakavod.
BTW, mishnayos and sugyos are nice but we pasken by Rambam and Shu"A.
First of all, a punishment has two purposes, to stop the perpetrator in his tracks and so that others should learn that you don't get away Scott free. Rabbi Horovits Shli"ta warned the neighbors in Israel so no harm should come to their children, nothing wrong there. You have posters in all international roadways such as curve ahead in order to take precaution. This mazik is today here and tomorrow there just like he escaped Justice from USA overnight. The villain is calling R' YH to Justice in Israel for disseminating flyers in Israel and not for what is posted in USA, else he can call the whole Justice system and all Newspapers from overseas to the Israeli Courts. Lo tasgir is not for those Shuolim mechablim bakromim bemeizid, and no orei Miklat is kolet such ever. Our Shuchan Aruch that we go by paskens, that a mechabel mazik lorabim should be given over to the Authorities, no messira issues there. See the Shu't Rashb"a or Mahra"m miRottenburg and many other Rishonim, period! End of story. BTW, from whence do you think the S'A' paskens from? Matzutz min haetzba?
ReplyDeleteAs a bonus question, here goes.
If you have a surgeon that keeps on losing his patients and they find him to be callous or even malicious, do you think that you just let him go and have him practice in some other town or you take away his license and can him away?
On such cases the talmud calls ROSHO! Lomeh ata zorek avonim mershus shelach lirshus she'eino sheloch. You don't open the barn to let loose a raging bull unto unsuspected civilians. You must lock him up and throw away the key. The same happens with these Offenders, they never heal and constantly on the prowl for victims, comparative to a RODEF anywhere, at any moment without any prior notice as a shual baderech. You should be grateful for those clearing the mine fields for the free and open society to keep them out of harms way. BTW, what I just quoted they are all well versed to any bar bei rav lechad yoma and any yeshiva bochur, no rocket science.
You have amply established yourself as a vigilante mindset. I will not take that position. There is nothing more to discuss.
ReplyDeleteyour name calling is a further indication that you are ignorant of the facts, the pscyhology and the halacha - and yet you feel a need to trumpet your "psak" to the world!
ReplyDeleteWrong again, ve'Esty Weinstein z"l tochiach!!! I go case by case as I see it through my lens and you are entitled to your opinion. I would however appreciate, if you would throw in the towel please. Here is another thing for you to learn, these meatballs are wired differently and they can never be rewired and must be quarantined, in my humble opinion.
ReplyDeletea rather incredible statement. If you know someone is a rodef after children because they molested children in NY or Australia and now they are Israel you are claiming that they are no longer a rodef! That Israeli children are not in danger?!
ReplyDeleteYour ignorant understanding is that a child molester lusts are tied to a specific geographic location. If true then the practice of rabbis to force the molester to move to another community would have been in fact the solution to the problem. What everybody except for you knows is that molesters will continue to molest if given the opportunity. You might have heard of the Colmer case. When a person is classified as a level three molester - there is no asterisk after that label that says - "This is true only if he remains in the community that he was caught molesting".
Your further claim that if they have to be punished they can only be punished in Israel - that is nice but what if the law doesn't allow that or rather it requires them to extradited first to stand trial and if convicted the judge might consider have them serve the sentence in Israel?
The point of involving the secular system is simply - there is nothing comparable in the Jewish community. If you look at the Rambam regarding some who disturbs the public -(see Gittin 7a and the Chasam Sofer there). It is permitted to have him arrested even for verbal harrassment and even if the arrest can lead to his death! Please take the time to read Yeshurun vol 15 before you continue to spout more nonsense and twisted psakim about child abuse.
Let me repeat the obvious - you are taking the contrarian position in regards to sexual abuse. The burden is on you. I asked one simple request Provide with with a recognized authority that agrees and supports your view and is willing to allow his name be published as having that view.
ReplyDeleteYou have not produced such a source. you write thousands of words - but you don't address this obvious point.
It is not my call - it is yours.
My position that a Rodef is only an imminent threat where somebody is really running after somebody with a knife and not a potential threat – aside from it’s clear source in Rambam Rotzeach 1:12 and Ch”M 425:3 is also supported by Rav Daniel Neustadt of Vaad HaRabbanim in Detroit (in the name of “many other Rabbanim who did not sign the letter) : http://audio.headlinesbook.com... Begin at 9:05 but my main point is from 13:00-13:25. (This is referenced in the above essay).
ReplyDeleteyou are clearly wrong about rodef - see the discussion in Yeschurin 15 which was devoted to Child abuse.
As I said - you are extrapolating without understanding how real poskim deal with these issues. If you were one of the gadolim it would be necessary to actually consider your views. But since you simjply are cherry picking and show no understanding of the subject - what you write is nonsense.
Your insistence on confrontation is viewed by the poskim as desirable but not obligatory
In short you simply are ignorant of the halachic literature and are cherry picking. That is not what a posek does.
The burden is on you. You are paskening and publicly announcing what you claim is halacha - but you are seriously mistaken
>>you are clearly wrong about rodef – <<
ReplyDeleteI have never said anything different than Rabbi Neustadt and his siyatta, the Rambam and Shu”A that I quote. If I am “clearly wrong”, so are they.
>>see the discussion in Yeschurin 15 which was devoted to Child abuse. <<
There are six teshuvos in that kuntros. The common theme in the teshuvos is Mesira, not Rodef. Some of the teshuvos speak about Rodef in the course of the discussion. Still, none of them is an overview on Hilchos Rodef and, from my brief review, none of them says anything opposing my position. If you think otherwise please point out which teshuva and quote the “challenging” phrases.
>>As I said - you are extrapolating without understanding how real poskim deal with these issues. If you were one of the gadolim it would be necessary to actually consider your views. But since you simjply are cherry picking and show no understanding of the subject - what you write is nonsense. <<
This is senseless blabbing. (And repetitive.)
>>Your insistence on confrontation is viewed by the poskim as desirable but not obligatory <<
Maybe some poskim. Not the Chofetz Chaim or Rav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L.
>>In short you simply are ignorant of the halachic literature and are cherry picking. That is not what a posek does. <<
Again, I don’t know what you mean. In my opinion the six teshuvos were in line with my hashkafas on virtually every subject they covered. They did not cover a few, such as extradition.
>>The burden is on you. You are paskening and publicly announcing what you claim is halacha - but you are seriously mistaken <<
Let’s drop this “burden” shtus. I am not paskening, I am only “paskening” (in quotation marks) because I am obviously not a posek. I “paskened” in two posts. One about the Kol Koreh (http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/02/mesira-xii-no-chochma-no-tevuna-and-no.html ) and the second about extradition (http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/06/mesira-xiv-we-have-to-kill-beastie.html ). In both places, I wrote that I am really just projecting the position of the Chofetz Chaim (and Rav Moshe in the first case). I do not really need any “authority” to pasken l’kaf zechus. As I wrote a zillion times, if you think I am “seriously mistaken” and insist to pasken l’kaf chov, do it. I don’t know why you can’t get past this.
Chezkel
This message is for rabbi Y.H. ulechol man deboie lemeida.
ReplyDeleteAll dinim of RODEF applies to a Sofek RODEF. A choivel umazik of the *Philidelphia* kind or otherwise, for a lack of a better term, once he put notice on society and already has a track record, one of which has been labeled as such in the past, is a RODEF anytime, anywhere, hen ba'aretz, vehen beChutz la'aretz, vehen bizman sheBeis hamikdash haya kayem, vehen bizman she'ein haBeis haMikdash kayem. The nature of this RODEF is, that whenever the opportunity arises and the situation is favorable to him, at moments notice, and in a blink of an eye, he arouses and is weaponized for mass destruction, ready, willing and able to pounce and to strike without any prior warning. He is like a raging Bull a Shor Muad with mad cow's disease charging forth as a Bulldozer that nothing can stop him, ve'ein lo shmura ela beKarka.
Furthermore, even before the situation of a perfect setting arises, at best he is a SOFEK RODEF and needs to be restrained by being locked up and throw away the key. Lo tasgir, Lashon Hara, Messira, need not and does not apply. You don't even need two eidim, you don't need to ask a Posek, it is matsilin oson benafshon vechol hakoidem Zocho, veyavo al schoro misholem. What does apply is, Pikuach nefesh doche Shabbos, veYom Tov, veChol sha'ar yemos haShana! Add to it Lo sa'amod al dam reacha!
We the People,
can't thank you Reb Yankel enough!!! Halevay vehalevay sheyirbu kemoscho beYisrael.
Dorach Koichov mi*Ya'akov*,
al tiro avdi Yaakov,
veSholom al *bnei* Yisrael, Amen.
This is a tshuva nitzachas for R'YH, since he vowed not to reply and I have the floor with no stom piyot.
A weaponized offender on the prowl ready to pounce any time any place as soon as the opportunity presents itself is a RODEF of immediate danger. A SOFEK RODEF has all the same halachas applied, of which you can call IMMINENT DANGER if you will. See Rodef and sofek RODEF!
ReplyDelete