The Obama administration’s directive last week instructing public schools to allow transgender students to use bathrooms and locker rooms of the gender they identify with has set off an intense debate.
Many politicians and parents have raised alarms about privacy and warned of predatory boys sneaking into girls’ bathrooms. But others say that such accommodations are critical protections for a vulnerable population.
For all of the heated debate, a central fact remains elusive: How many students are we talking about?
No one knows for sure. Researchers have not figured out how to obtain consistent, reliable answers from teenagers, much less younger children.
The best estimates are that the population is small, probably under 1 percent of adolescents. [...]
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And the dispute has driven apart young people who grew up together and were once friends.
Some say the new rule opens the door to sexual predators disguised as someone they are not. Others say it just violates tradition. A society has rules for a reason, and this is one of those rules, that’s just the way it is, they say.
But on a more basic level, students at Green Mountain are complaining that a small vocal minority of gay, lesbian and, as far as they know, one — or maybe two — transgender students among them are trampling on the rights of the majority to decide what the rules of conduct should be. [...]
Mr. Jackson has gradually been making the transition from a vivacious girl with a big smile and long wavy locks to a husky boy with chopped hair dyed several shades of green, snakebite piercings in his lips and gauges embedded in his earlobes. His chest is visibly bound, and because he has not yet started taking male hormones — he plans to do that, and also to have “top surgery,” he says — his face is smooth and still has feminine contours. He once thought he was lesbian, and is still attracted to girls.[...]
Hank Mauti, a school board member and retired sawmill worker from Andover, said he wondered why Mr. Jackson would feel compelled to use a boys’ bathroom when there were six single-use gender-neutral bathrooms in the school.
“What about the little boy that reported it?” asked Mr. Mauti’s wife, Wanda, repeating the rumor, in an interview in their home, under a trophy of a moose that Mr. Mauti shot. “As far as I can tell, his discomfort hasn’t been addressed.” [...]
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Transgender Bathroom Debate Turns Personal at a Vermont High School
The way A J Jackson tells it, he kept his head ducked down and pretended to fiddle with his cellphone as he walked into the boys’ bathroom and headed for a stall at Green Mountain Union High School here.
But the way some of his classmates see it, A J was still Autumn Jackson, a girl in boys’ clothing, who had violated an intimate sanctum, while two boys were standing at a urinal, their private parts exposed.
“It’s like me going into a girls’ bathroom wearing a wig,” Tanner Bischofberger, 15, a classmate of A J Jackson’s, who was not one of those in the bathroom, said this week. “It’s just weird.” [...]
But the way some of his classmates see it, A J was still Autumn Jackson, a girl in boys’ clothing, who had violated an intimate sanctum, while two boys were standing at a urinal, their private parts exposed.
“It’s like me going into a girls’ bathroom wearing a wig,” Tanner Bischofberger, 15, a classmate of A J Jackson’s, who was not one of those in the bathroom, said this week. “It’s just weird.” [...]
And the dispute has driven apart young people who grew up together and were once friends.
Some say the new rule opens the door to sexual predators disguised as someone they are not. Others say it just violates tradition. A society has rules for a reason, and this is one of those rules, that’s just the way it is, they say.
But on a more basic level, students at Green Mountain are complaining that a small vocal minority of gay, lesbian and, as far as they know, one — or maybe two — transgender students among them are trampling on the rights of the majority to decide what the rules of conduct should be. [...]
Mr. Jackson has gradually been making the transition from a vivacious girl with a big smile and long wavy locks to a husky boy with chopped hair dyed several shades of green, snakebite piercings in his lips and gauges embedded in his earlobes. His chest is visibly bound, and because he has not yet started taking male hormones — he plans to do that, and also to have “top surgery,” he says — his face is smooth and still has feminine contours. He once thought he was lesbian, and is still attracted to girls.[...]
Hank Mauti, a school board member and retired sawmill worker from Andover, said he wondered why Mr. Jackson would feel compelled to use a boys’ bathroom when there were six single-use gender-neutral bathrooms in the school.
“What about the little boy that reported it?” asked Mr. Mauti’s wife, Wanda, repeating the rumor, in an interview in their home, under a trophy of a moose that Mr. Mauti shot. “As far as I can tell, his discomfort hasn’t been addressed.” [...]
Why not just have public schools make a third bathroom (that could be a lot smaller.) Call it a "unisex" bathroom. In certain public places they call these a "family" bathroom.
ReplyDeleteplease read the second article where it is noted that the school has 6 such bathrooms which the so called transgendered individual refused to use
ReplyDeleteProbably because she doesn't want to use a "handicapped" bathroom because that would mean acknowledging her sick mental condition
ReplyDeleteIf a man suddenly announced one day that he was really a dog, put on a collar and then ran around his backyard naked and defaecating on the neighbour's lawn he'd be taken to a psychiatrist and given really, really strong medications because, well because he's not a dog.
ReplyDeleteSo why is it different when that man suddenly announces that, despite Y chromosomes and testicles, that he's really a woman?
What if a non-Jew decided that he was really a Jew?
ReplyDeleteWhat if a Democrat decided he was really a Republican?
There are those would claim all of the above are equal
Basically a woman trapped in a man's body is easier to imagine than a dog trapped in a man's body
I suffer from a personality disorder where I believe I am rich. It is something easily treatable, just takes a couple of hundred grand a year. Unfortunately, my incompetent health insurance company has still refused to pay my claim. Now if only I can find a lawyer willing to take the case on a contingency basis.
ReplyDeletethere are non jews who claim to be jewish. (and i dont mean quasi jewish, or the sort.)
ReplyDeletethere are plenty of RINOs (Republicans In Name Only.) intersting there are no / few republicans who claim to democrats.
You have put your finger on what the real issue is. Your proposal is perfectly reasonable if the goal here was merely to make a few misfits feel comfortable.
ReplyDeleteBut the real goal here is to make all society ascribe to the notion that there is no such thing as a set gender, it is all a fluid construct, and you can change it at will. For that, it is imperative that everybody be forced to toe the line and accept this person as a boy.
It is the difference, IOW, between tolerance and forced affirmation.
Your analogies don't fit. In both your examples you're talking about something a person can change about themselves and which makes them better. That doesn't apply to the trans concept.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidenson, to most of us who haven't been stung by the venomous perverts, it's impossible to imagine and it is absurd beyond any absurdity. With all due respect, it seems you have been stung.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the dog thing is on it's way, because there really isn't much difference.
It is interesting that the Abarbanel says it is a mitzva to eat meat so we know that there is a difference between a person and an animal.
ReplyDeleteI meant there isn't much difference between this mishugaas and that one.
ReplyDeleteThe article stated that the school in discussion had 6 of those single use bathrooms.... It raised the question of why the trans kid didn't simply use one of those...
ReplyDeleteMost public schools have some or at least one single-use bathroom.
Very few homosexuals are the public / flamboyant types. But those that are, are very vocal, and don't want to conform to societal norms. They want society to conform to their norms.
ReplyDeleteMake six men only, and six women only bathrooms, and put them in what the article calls out of the way places, and they'll be happy.
Till they start tp something else.
What about a Goy trapped in a Jew's body? Why can't I convert to being a Goy? Because I can't. Because so it was decreed from The Beginning by the Creator of the Universe.
ReplyDeleteThank you. I had skimmed through it and missed that part.
ReplyDeleteThank you. I had skimmed through the article and missed that part.
ReplyDeleteThat is irrelevant. Imagine the situation: There is a student who identifies as male, and spends his time hanging out with his male friends. They eat lunch in the cafeteria together, and stop by the bathroom on their way to play ball. To force that student to say to his friends, "sorry, I have to go to the other bathroom two flights up" can be humiliating for that student.
ReplyDeleteIt is is humiliating for a person who thinks that she is a male to have others disagree. Is the next stage an executive order that no one is allowed to believe she is other than what she thinks at the moment?
ReplyDeletethat addressing her as "he" will result in 90 days in jail and $2000 fine for each violation?
It is reasonable that all people who think that they are smart or "cool" should also not be forced to meet people who disagree with their self assessment. Teachers need to check that there grading is in accord with the person's self-perception. Employers also need to be held accountable when they evaluate an employee different than the person's self-perception. It is so embarrassing to be told you are not as good or competent as you believe. Perhaps the Reform movement will push for a law that it is prohibited to tell someone who thinks that they are Jewish that they are not.
In sum - what are the parameters for being able to deal with another's self-assessment?
That is a good question, but you and others here seem to be under the impression that the issue here is about people who on Tuesday self-identify as men, on Wednesday self-identify as women, and on Thursday, who knows what they will decide. In many many cases, transitioning to the other gender is a process that takes years, and can even begin in one's childhood. It is not that they have a wrong impression, it is that for whatever reason (biological/psychological or something else) their internal gender identity does not match their external bodily form. I really recommend that people read firsthand accounts of those who have experienced this before comparing their situations to people who "think they are cool" and the like.
ReplyDeleteIt likewise takes time for a person's self image to develop. It is also a devasting experience to discover that other's don't see you as you see yourself.
ReplyDeleteMy question remains - what are the parameters for not accepting another's self-perception?
What other examples are there of government directives to prevent or punish an act which contradicts a person's self-perception? Especially when the preventing itself causes anguish
This student can't expect that we will all have our brains twisted just because she has her's twisted. The truth is she is a girl. If she has a problem with that, it's her problem and her problem only, because is trying to twist the truth. Is she is humiliated by others who aren't crazy because in her craziness she has a crazy expectation, that doesn't require us all to join her in her craziness. The only one who needs to change anything is her, to get normal, and if she's is beyond repair, then she is like any sick person who nebach has no cure. Nebach but we don't have to join her in her sickness.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, since it's a psychological problem, for us to cottle her just makes the problem worse. Like someone who suffers from parannoya and is totally convinced that everyone is trying to murder him. For us to handcuff ourselves to make him feel better is the same as what you are requiring here.
Your sentiments are an indication that you don't quite see it as the total craziness that it is. You have validated this persons craziness which says that you have a problem yourself. I hate to say it buddy, but that means you have been stung by the venomous perverts and have contracted the illness/craziness to a certain degree.
Just one question: Have you ever read an in-depth first person account written by a transgender person?
ReplyDeleteYes. But what difference does that make. If you get so influenced by everything that you read, you should curb your reading. Maybe next time you'll read what Kofrim say and maybe next time you'll read from ISIS people and if they'll represent themselves well, you'll buy into it.
ReplyDeletePlease keep some of your common sense with you. Not every mishugaas is to be validated.
Get this straight. If a person is genetically a certain gender, that can't be changed. If a boy likes to do girlish things and feels more comfortable with that role, he is still a boy. He is a boy who has a particular inner struggle. The idea that he should call himself a girl and then go ahead and maim himself, is crazy. He is a boy with a struggle. We all have different struggles in life, some of us more difficult than others. This is his struggle. In any struggle the first step in dealing with it in a constructive way is to be honest with oneself in facing it for what it is. In this case what it is, is that he is a boy with difficulty filling his role. Self deception is self destructive. Even if he cuts off his ... he is still genetically a boy but at that point ruined goods. To coddle such a person is not an act of kindness. It is helping them in their self destructive path.
ReplyDeleteIt depends what you mean by "buy into it." If you mean go and become like that myself, certainly not. But if you mean that I will recognize that there are actual human beings who are facing real challenges, and therefore develop empathy and not reduce them to caricatures, I would certainly hope so.
ReplyDeleteThe correct measure is to recognize that these human being are nebach crazy, and their words are lunacy. The rachmanus may not include saying that their craziness is anything other than that.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you say certainly not in regards to becoming that way yourself? You would if you have the situation that they do because you validate it. You just don't happen to have the urge.
ReplyDeleteI am not understanding your comment. Beside for the myriad issues that someone like that would face as a Torah-observant Jew, from what I read it is not an easy life for anyone. Why would I want that for myself?
ReplyDeleteWell, that is where we will part ways.
ReplyDeleteAnd why would they?
ReplyDeleteThis was the first at least semi-normal sentiment you have presented so far in this discussion.
So you're saying that there are some technical things which would get in your way from doing this, but otherwise you're fine with it.
ReplyDeleteOr are you saying that a normal person you wouldn't destroy your life. If that's what you're saying, as I hope it is, then those people who do it, unlike you, are willing to destroy their lives because they're nuts.
But if this is your intention, it still is only semi normal and still lacks tremendously much from being properly normal. Because it still shows that in your mind even such an abomination and lunacy is not not out of the realm of acceptability. I'm telling you that soon we will hear people saying that they have canine species identity, and you and/or people who make arguments similar to yours will most likely empathize with them too, and you will probably view yourselves as having the quality of open mindedness as you view yourself in connection to this issue.
Just one question: Have you ever read an in-depth first person account written by a woman who had to face men entering the restroom while she was there?
ReplyDeleteShare a link, please. I would be happy to check it out.
ReplyDelete"And why would they"? Because that is who they are. I would not want to be black, due to the way blacks are mistreated and discriminated against even in America. You might as well ask: So why would blacks want to be black? Please educate yourself about gender dysphoria. Research has shown that it may be a result of exposure to hormones during pregnancy and other genetic and/or biological factors.
ReplyDeleteIt's not absurd at all. Acc. to Chazal, there was a time when man and woman were a single body. It is not difficult to imagine that after their separation, vestiges of one might still inhabit a body of the other.
ReplyDeleteI would venture to say that these upheavals are perhaps a sign of the imminent coming of acharis hayamim, when the circle will close and the world will return to its roots. I imagine this means a return to a melding of man and woman, as it was in the beginning. What we see now are premonitions of that time.
With the same logic we can excuse incest and bestiality - are you saying these are valid excuses?
ReplyDeleteA great example of how someone can take kabbalistic ideas that is not properly understood and excuse the most ridiculous things. With this process, one can violate women and seduce them through these kabbalistic mubo jumbo.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the man in his fifties who decided that he is a 6 year-old girl. Is this also real, or was he seeking to escape reality and responsibilities? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html
He clearly says that it feels great because he has no responsibilities.
What about the guy who decided to become a goat? http://nypost.com/2016/05/22/why-this-man-decided-to-become-a-goat/
He was in debt, life was just too difficult and becoming a goat was the best escape.
Psychological issues are just that: psychological issues. Kabbalistic concepts that excuse these perverted behaviors are best left for Madonna and her ilk.
Sorry, but what sin am I meant to have excused? I am speaking about the phenomenon of men and women feeling at odds with their biological gender, and suggested a theological. explanation for the phenomenon, which you are free to reject as you wish. I have said nothing about excusing any sort of sin.
ReplyDeleteNo idea what sins you think I am excusing. See my reply to DT.
ReplyDeleteOn second thought, I'm going to delete my comment. From your responsese it is clear that my statement can be seriously misunderstood as promoting sin, so I'll take that as a sign that they should be removed.
ReplyDeleteIt's a pseudo science. Just because they gave a fancy name doesn't mean it's anything other than sheer rishus and craziness. If a person wants to do things that are traditionally practiced by a different organism, that doesn't mean he actually is that organism. But maybe fantasy is reality and lies are the truth and things are what they are not. There is research about these phenomena, you know.
ReplyDeleteThanks for that.
ReplyDeleteI tried to post an empty comment in response to yours but the system didn't accept it.
There's a trick to it ...
ReplyDeleteI do it b/c I can't figure out how to delete comments.
Now I understand where you are coming from, at least. I would venture a guess that you also don't believe in humans causing climate change either.
ReplyDeleteNu? So what did you want/not want to say?
ReplyDeleteI haven't studied climate change so I don't have a definitive opinion, but this subject has no real data. It's just that we play on words and terms and call it science. We say that if we think we feel feminine like feelings we consider it reasonable to term ourselves 'women' even though we are genetically not so. This then permits us to legitimize ourselves in masquerading like a woman, and then going further than that my maiming ourselves, and then going further than that by demanding that everybody adopt their definitions and all of their self proclaimed ramifications as mentioned above and if we don't .....
ReplyDeleteBut definitions are very important because identifying things affects the rules of those things. A man has to wear tefilin and a woman does not. So come certaoin folks and say that they feel feminine so they don't have to wear tefilin. This is an uprooting of The Torah which stems in the uprooting of basic normality. So those people have to go OTD because they know that The Torah doesn't agree with what they want to do. So they become kofrim. And of course they think know better than everyone even Hashem. The problem is that their decisions aren't based on rational thinking. It's like The Gemara tells us that they worshiped avoda zara in order to free themselves of The Torah because they wanted to commit adultery. So this means that they weren't thinking with their minds but instead their lowly desires ruled their thought process. The same here. These people don't think with the brain but with the genitalia. They call it science. I call it craziness rooted in prikas ol of the worst sorts.
They are basing the definition of gender upon vagueness and undefinable things. 'Feelings'. If an object has certain properties, it is a table, if it has certain other properties it is a chair, and so and so forth with everything. When we allow ourselves to do away with tangible defining criteria, and permit ourselves to define things however we feel, then that means that there can exist no rules.
ReplyDeleteSo in today's society Corporal Maxwell Q.Klinger's dressing as a woman would be considered normal? No Section 8 discharge from the Army would be possible at all?
ReplyDeleteThat is ridiculous. We define things not based on tangible properties, and even based on "feelings," all the time. We consider some people as nice and others as mean. Some people are funny and some are bores. A work of art can be considered beautiful or hideous.
ReplyDeleteTHAT is ridiculous! Are you deliberately trying to twist things or do you really believe in your argument?! You are showing how feelings can be defined through feelings. 'Nice', 'Mean', 'Funny', 'Boring', 'Beautiful' and 'Hideous' are all words which describe the 'feelings' that people have about people or things. Naturally and by definition those will be based on perception, because they only describe a perception. But names of objects are defined by tangible properties.
ReplyDeleteApparently, when you twist nature you become unable to tell between sense and nonsense.
I said it, and then decided to delete in response to reaction by some readers.
ReplyDeleteWell, given that the belief that humans cause climate change is a religious one, whose evidence is flimsy and has been falsified more than once, and given that a goodly number of climatologists dispute the belief (but quietly, lest they suffer the fate of heretics), why should anyone, let alone a believing Jew, accept it unquestioningly?
ReplyDelete