Now when we say hashta avdi – this year we’re slaves, l’shana haboah bnei chorin, what are we asking for? More liberty? We get more freedom to go and ruin more lives? We want more liberty, but only to be forced to do what’s right. Liberty is when you learn Yiras Shamayim, you learn Mesilas Yeshorim, and you learn good middos. Now, the good middos force you to move into a good neighborhood, to move out of the suburbs. When you move into a good neighborhood among frum Jews, and you join a kehilla of frum Jews, you’ll be ashamed to divorce your wife. It’s people who live out in the suburbs where one in five divorce. When they would come to a good neighborhood, they think, “What will my enemies say, the people in the shul who know me are enemies of mine. They’ll laugh at me, and therefore why should I give them an opportunity to ridicule me, when getting divorced.”
And therefore the sviva rescues people from tragedies. 40 years ago people were ashamed to divorce, and they lived off their years, and they took their grandchildren to the Chupa together and they’re buried together in the cemetery and if they were zoche to Olam Haba, they would live together in the next world too. But people have liberty today, and so if she doesn’t like her husband, she says “get out of the house,” and he says “why should I get out of the house?” And she goes and gets a writ of protection, calls in the police, and drives the husband out of the house.
Now she’s all alone. Now she’s “happy,” and now she has “liberty.” Now she has ruined her life. I met a girl like that. A girl came over to me on the street, I never saw her before. She came over to me and said, “You know Rabbi Miller, 20 years ago I demanded and got a divorce. I made a very big mistake in my life,” she said. Divorce is ruination, and that’s why women didn’t have the right to divorce according to the Torah. Only men, because women are excitable and if women can give gittin, they’ll give gittin all the time. No matter why, but the facts are the men are slower, more deliberate. It’s important. What kind of life would it be if women could give a Get? “It’s slavery” she said. That slavery is good for you. You’ll live long with your husband. You won’t have tzoros, and eventually, in the end you’ll see that it was the best thing for you to be together with your husband. You’ll grow old together and when the time comes he dies, you’ll weep and collect insurance, and you’ll be a happy person.
Seriously? Why are you posting this? Do you agree with what Rav Miller says?
ReplyDeleteI don't think this excerpt advances the cause that you want it to advance.
ReplyDeleteSummation of Rav Miller ZT"L's underlying points:
ReplyDelete1. Divorce is bad.
2. Avoid divorce.
3. Divorce is worse than a difficult marriage.
4. Being ashamed of getting divorce is a good thing since it saves people from making the mistake of unnecessarily divorcing.
5. Divorce is rampant, overused and abused.
6. Most divorces are preventable and unnecessary.
7. People seeking divorce often utilize lies and unethical means to achieve that goal when it is unjustified.
8. Women are much more prone to divorce unnecessarily, too quickly and without justification.
9. The Torah doesn't permit women to choose to divorce and the above point may be one of the reasons.
10. People assume divorce will fix their problems when in reality it exacerbates them and causes worse problems.
Yes, I do.
ReplyDeleteStrange man!
ReplyDeleteI take offence with anyone trying to make divorce into a gender issue. Some failed marriages are due to the unreasonable behavior of the husband and some are due to the unreasonable behavior of the wife. Where a spouse of either gender is abusive, it is simply cruel to expect the other spouse to stay and be subject to a lifetime of abuse. I'm not sure what the point of this post is, but I don't buy into the fact that women are more likely to use the system to chuck out their husbands any more than husbands who abuse their wives through the courts.
ReplyDeleteTrue abuse is quite rare. Abuse is a term frequently bandied about but usually greatly exaggerated. There are far far more divorces than their are real cases of spousal abuse.
ReplyDeleteI take offence with anyone trying to make divorce into a gender issue. Some failed marriages are due to the unreasonable behavior of the husband and some are due to the unreasonable behavior of the wife.
ReplyDeleteI take offense at anyone who ignores the data of divorce when theorizing and pontificating about divorce.
Fact: The vast majority of divorces are initiated and demanded by women.
Fact: Studies suggest that the primary cause of divorce is "falling out of 'love.'"
Where a spouse of either gender is abusive, it is simply cruel to expect the other spouse to stay and be subject to a lifetime of abuse.
1) Please give a clear definition of abuse.
2) What percentage of divorces had real abuse in them?
I'm not sure what the point of this post is, but I don't buy into the fact that women are more likely to use the system to chuck out their husbands any more than husbands who abuse their wives through the courts.
Nice. Please provided some actual data.
"There are far more more divorces than there are real cases of spousal abuse"
ReplyDeletePlease provide a source for this.
Here is some actual data for you. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/domestic-violence-statistics_n_5959776.html
ReplyDeleteWhere are the sources for the "facts" you boldly claim above. How can you be sure that the women you refer to are not divorcing because they have been victims of spousal abuse.
This is what is meant by domestic abuse. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence
I don't see any value in making broad statements about divorce in this way. Each situation should be handled on a case by case basis so that a fair outcome is achieved (as much as is possible) for all parties involved.
ReplyDeleteGeneralizations like this don't help anyone nor further any cause.
unless of course if they are true
ReplyDeleteEven if they are true (and I have yet to be convinced) it doesn't help the people who fall outside of the description above and are being further persecuted because of a generalization like that presented here. Each situation should be treated on it's own merits, so even if these statistics are true, I don't see what value they have.
ReplyDeletethese are vile sentiments
ReplyDeletesorry to all you Gedolim worshippers
as a Hareidi , i am embarrassed that he is considered a Godol
in this tape, he says that woman should not complain if her husband punches her
http://torahdownloads.com/player.html?ShiurID=17734
So according to statistics dredged up by the feminist writers at the Huffington Post, abuse victims are 85% female and 15% male, huh? The Wikipedia article you yourself cite explains why that statistic is a distortion of reality. Read it again.
ReplyDelete"Domestic violence is among the most under-reported crimes worldwide for both men and women.[5][6] Men face additional gender related barriers in reporting, due to social stigmas regarding male victimization, and an increased likelihood of being overlooked by healthcare providers.[7][8][9][10]"
The data collected on DV is nowhere near representative of what's really going on. Men are just as likely as women to be victims, but they are often too ashamed to report the abuse that is perpetrated on them by their wives. And even if they weren't, they wouldn't generally be believed anyway. Although the man is strong, he is hard-wired to channel that strength into protecting his mate, not in calling other males to cart her away in a paddy wagon. But when faced with a physical threat, it's not surprising that his response is to defend himself, which might then induce the woman to call the police. And who do you think is the one they will arrest?
Not only is the wife not embarrassed to report genuine abuse, she is incentivized by the system to file false charges on her decent but ordinary husband as well. She will be handsomely rewarded in the form of getting his property, income, and full custody of the children. Her compound abuse strikes her docile husband verbally, sometimes bodily, always financially, and worst of all, emotionally, oftentimes leaving him a mere shell of his former self. And her alienation of the children is a form of child abuse that the feminist media prefers to ignore.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller writes so beautifully. I remember reading him and loving his work when I was at YU 1963-1967.
ReplyDeleteI’m reading Pacer on Mendel Epstein.
Pacer 4/26/2016:
“None of the alleged victims appeared at sentencing to complain or to seek restitution.”
Pacer 4/25/2016 words of Mendel Epstein:
“Over the years I guess I got caught up with my tough guy image. Truthfully, it helped me, the reputation, to convince many of these reprobates to do the right thing. Over the years, I noticed that if I talked tougher, it countered many of the poor agunahs who had lost all hope. Finally, they found the tough rabbi to deal with the (in Hebrew,) reprobates, their husbands. I was the rabbi who was willing to and went to Red Hook, to the docks, to beg the husband who worked in the union there to give his wife a get. They weren't religious, but they were married (in Hebrew,) and she needed a get.”
We need tough rabbis to deal with the true reprobates---the depraved corrupt radical feminists and their supporters. It’s not safe for feminists’ victims to complain or to seek restitution. Whew, I’m in Israel. The true reprobates can’t get to me.
So therefore, as according to the original post, we should always persecute the wife in situations of divorce, including persuading her to stay married if possible?
ReplyDeleteNo need to investige the actual cause of the marrital breakdown as you have already listed it here for us.
I received this comment to post:
ReplyDelete=====================================
I actually agree with the commenter that challenged generalizations. Rav Miller’s points are true and well taken, and my haskomoh is not needed. However, each case must be judged on its own merits. Not every marriage can succeed. Many that are fundamentally weak can be enhanced and improved upon. Others cannot. Abuse is one example where it is close to impossible to reconcile. Violations of trust, particularly cheating, addictions, and lying/secret keeping are very hard to reconcile.
Divorce needs to always be seen as a last resort. There are marriages that exist as a state of toleration, though that is certainly far from ideal. But many problematic marriages are simply intolerable. I can cite many such cases. And I have been on the sidelines of quite many divorces. One of the major difficulties with divorce is the bitterness that is implemented in all sorts of battle activity after the separation and even after the get. The settling of the affairs needs to be menchlich, not the far too common bitter battles that support the industry of toanim and lawyers.
I have noted before that people marry out of love and they divorce out of hate. That is another generalization that is true. But it does not need to be that way. That is the primary reason that children suffer the consequences.
Forcing a couple to remain together when their emotions are the mixture of hate, anger, and distrust is unacceptable. Pushing them apart when they can be reconciled is equally unacceptable. But judgments about divorce which are made without considering these issues are flawed, and need to be stopped. Unfortunately, way too many rabbonim do not understand the issues of marriage and its problems, and are apt to either take a side in a machlokes that needs to be quelled, or in pushing together two people who have become enemies. Therapists are busy undoing the damage of these rabbonim all the time.
If you study the Rishonim you will see that everything is a kindness from Hashem. When someone has sinned and he suffers physically, monetarily or emotionally it is intended to punish him in this world so that he doesn't have to suffer far more greatly in the world to come. It is also structured so that the person can learn from the suffering and improve and remove the suffering.
ReplyDeleteRead Rabbi Miller's book about world war 2 and you will see why the Holocaust was justified due to the widespread abandonment of Torah and the danger to the future of the entire Jewish people. The fact that it was a kindness is implicit in the writings of major Rishonim such as the Chovos Halevavos. Rabbi Miller points our how it is clearly evident in the events leading up to the Holocaust and in its actual reality.
What do you say the Holocaust was? Was it Chas V'shalom out of the control of Hashem or some incomprehensible cruelty for no reason G-d forbid?
Your point of view is that it was a cruelty is totally false and a slander.
I cannot agree with these sentiments more. The points you made have been written in a better way than I could have done. Thank you for bringing this to the discussion.
ReplyDelete“When you move into a good neighborhood among frum Jews, and you join a kehilla of frum Jews, you’ll be ashamed to divorce your wife.”
ReplyDeleteThis is how Mendel Epstein should talk now to his appeal judges and he should claim that this is how he always talked---to get a reduced sentenced.
Page 116 in Pacer 4/25/2016
“And I went to Cafe Baba in Queens, which was a black kosher belly dancing club. "Black kosher" means just the food. I don't know why people eat black kosher were there. But many young Israelies who left Israel would go there and they would forget that they had a wife and they would leave their wife with young children. And I would have photographs of the wife and the children, and I would come there with adocument prepared by the Rabbi Knut (phonetic) the Israeli rabbi to beg the husband to give a get. Imagine, I would walk in there. They would be sitting around with young ladies at the table drinking, happy, and I would walk in and I would say: Can I speak to you? And he would say: Of course not. Of course not. Who are you? Get out of here. And I would say: Well, I have a message from your wife and two children. Immediately the young ladies would move away from him, and they would yell at him in Hebrew: You are married? You have children? And he would get up and scream and curse. But I told him: If you don't want me in your life, just sign, give me a get, and they would.”
See, Mendel Epstein should claim that the videos of the FBI sting were merely puffery, all lies,, and so all the stories about him over the 30 years.
Example, at Café Baba in Queens Mendel Epstein should say that he told the fellow there to go back to his wife and children. He told the fellow that the pretty ladies in the Queens Bar would take all his money, quoting Mishley:
“For the commandment is a lamp, The teaching is a light, And the way to life is the rebuke that disciplines. It will keep you from an evil woman, From the smooth tongue of a forbidden woman. Do not lust for her beauty Or let her captivate you with her eyes. The last loaf of bread will go for a harlot; A married woman will snare a person of honor. Can a man rake embers into his bosom Without burning his clothes? Can a man walk on live coals Without scorching his feet? It is the same with one who sleeps with his fellow’s wife; None who touches her will go unpunished” (Proverbs 6:23-29).
divorce is a successful way to bring to an end an unsuccessful marriage , but it is only one way to deal with an unsuccessful marriage .Shame is certainly not a way to deal with an unhappy marriage
ReplyDeleteWhile it is obvious that to force people to stay together when they are totally unhappy and their is virtually no chance of solving the issues and reconciliation, this does not detract from the fact that women are abusing the system on a very, very wide scale by running to arko"oys (goyshe court) and using the most ridiculous western divorce system to bankrupt their ex husbands and destroy him in every possible way including trying to destroy his relationship with his children. Yet ironically the ORA feminist crowd are repeatedly distorting the truth and claiming that the real problem of divorce is the fake Agunah problem.
ReplyDeleteThere are more individual fake religious divorce lawyers in the tri-state area who are encouraging this despicable violation of halocho than there are men on the Jewish Press list.And lawyers handle multiple cases at once.
That is why it is a fact that 80% of divorces are initiated by women. If there was a price pay by women and not just men in divorce, women would stop being trigger happy. Statistics were previously posted that showed that in cases of relationship breakups that were not divorce related, the percentage was 50/50 by gender. It's obvious that although in many cases divorce may be necessary, in many others it could be avoided and would be avoided if the women weren't treated like saints and victims almost all the time in court and had to pay a heavy price just like men have to do.
I read his book. It is a book that as fit to have been written by a Jew hater..
ReplyDeleteWhy didn't G-d destroy American Jewry who were sinning worse than European Jewry?
He had all the answers. Disgusting vile book.
When did your family come to America before or after the war?
How can you criticize anyone for going to arko'os when, by your own admission on a previous blogpost, it is difficult to find a non-corrupt beis din.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2016/04/review-of-beys-din-system-today-by-r.html
If you see my comments on that blog post, you will see numerous examples of senior Rabbis "running to arko'os" rather than seeking justice through a beis din.
My mother was in Auschwitz and my father was on Schindler's list. I know all about the holocaust up close and personal. I came to America from Germany when I was 2 years old.
ReplyDeleteYour argument about American Jewry is is totally false and incorrect. The vast majority of European Jewry had turned away from G-d and there were massive anti Religious and anti Jewish movements in Europe. There were the Communists, Bundists, anti religious Zionists, anti Jewish Yiddishists and more and all were anti Torah and Judaism. I heard Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetzky compare the holocaust to someone whose business was disastrously failing and the owner burned it down to start clean and fresh.
Just because he had all the right answers is no reason to hate him or pursue false ideas.
What is your interpretation of the Holocaust?
Monty the Shulchan Oruch addresses this problem. If there is no Bais Din in a town it tells one what to do. please investigate and get back to us.
ReplyDeleteIf one can't find a kosher shochet in a town that does mean one is allowed to eat treif? Obviously not.
However there is one Bais Din that does not charge any money, provides din, provides a proper psak and doesn't allow corrupt toanim in it. Call rabbi Gestetner if you are interested.
Oh so you are bringing proofs from Satmar and Bobov who went to arko"oys and Chaim Berlin for being lo tzias dina. Please - that is a ridiculous tayna and you know it. Because the leadership today is mostly corrupt is a function of the people they lead. We get the leaders we deserve. There is a Torah and no matter what excuses they give, they are causing a major Chilul hashem. Don't be my guest and don't follow them. You will have to give a din ve"cheshbon on this after 120 years.
Anyone who mocks a divorced person needs to do some serious tsheuva (full disclosure: I divorced and remarried).
ReplyDeleteYou asked what happens when there is no schochet in town. Here is a similar situation during the 9 days.
ReplyDeletehttp://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Nine_Days&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile#Eating_Meat_and_Drinking_Wine
"One is permitted to leave his meat restaurant open during the nine days, because the people who are eating meat during the nine days, without the availability of kosher meat, may go to a non-kosher restaurant but he should preferably serve only chicken."
As a community, we must be sensitive to the needs of others to make keeping halacha as accessible as possible. There must be some responsibility on each town to provide a non-corrupt beis din. It is unfair to place the blame solely on those who seek arko'os as your comments thus far appear to suggest.
You also mentioned that our leadership is corrupt (one thing I do agree with you on!!) and that the leadership is only a reflection of the people. How then, do we as a people change to ensure we have better leaders?
If fear of shame prevents people from erring, that is a positive attribute.
ReplyDeleteTranslation from Monty's Doublespeak:
ReplyDelete"I take offense at anyone trying to highlight the factually true, rampant problem of female initiated divorces and gross injustices committed against divorcing men in the "frum" communities. We must never discuss the power and influence of aggressive feminist groups in the frum communities. Rather we must continue obfuscating and misleading the frum public by denying that women ever gain massive advantages from divorce in the family courts, and denying that they gain any advantage in the feminist Batei Din. We must never acknowledge the "Orthodox" feminist groups enabling women to divorce their husbands in violation of halacha. We must never acknowledge the cruel injustices committed against many frum Jewish fathers who have had their children stolen from them. Now let's sweep this misogynist discussion under the rug as soon as possible and continue our facade of centrism and reasonableness."
I don't know why the Holocaust happened.
ReplyDeleteI know the Nazis with their collaborators killed Jews.
And R'Miller blames the Jewish people for their demise. Nice.
From what I've read about R' Yaakov Kaminecki, he did not have an opinion on the reason for the Holocaust and was upset that people thought they knew what G-d was thinking.
Why is my argument about American Jewry incorrect?
I just don't think that a public school kid from Baltimore should weigh in on the Holocaust.
The Torah offers explanations for events of life for those who study it. Nothing happens without a reason.The Ramban and the Rambam disagree about why the Egyptians were punished for oppressing the Jews. Either because they were the nation that decided to fill the role of the oppressors or because they went beyond the limits of their mandate to oppress but it wasn't the Egyptians random choice but it was G-d's plan. The same is true of everything in life. The nations of the world don't have unlimited freedom to disrupt justice and Hashem's favored treatment of the Jews.The Nazi's yimach shimum were evil tools in the hands of Hashem Yisborach.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah blames the Jewish people when suffering comes upon them due to their abandonment of the Torah. When they read the portions of the Torah related to the curses of Hashem to those that violate the Torah, pay more attention next time. The Jewish people as a whole are responsible for the their own well being. This is not Rabbi Miller's invention.
I heard the statement from Rabbi Kaminetzky z"l directly.
American Jewry did not keep the Torah in general but they didn't mount massive programs to actively destroy it. In Europe they had all sorts of groups actively trying to undermine and destroy Judaism.
Rabbi Miller was not a kid but an adult who lived and studied in Europe and a tzaddik and a gaon. He doesn't deserve your ignorant of Jewish hashkofa criticism.
Rabbi Miller was an American young man when he was in Europe. There were many greater people who did not give their opinion on this.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the Jews were killed because they disparaged Zionism as the Eim Habonim Semeicha wrote.
Who really knows?
American Jewry were running toward other isms.
Americanism, capitalism, materialism, secularism.
Many still followed the false gods of socialism, communism yiddishism, anarchism, zionism etc.
By the way, where was Conservative Jewry created and had it's major success?
What about Reform?
Mordechai Kaplan and Reconstructionist?
But how would you know any of this with your lack of intellectual curiosity?
Monte I never asked the question as to what to do if there is no shechet in town. the answer is obvious either import meat or do without or move. Please see what i wrote and i quote:
ReplyDelete"Monty the Shulchan Oruch addresses this problem. If there is no Bais Din in a town it tells one what to do." I asked the question what to do if there is no bais din. And the answer is to try and settle the case (not mentioned) or set up lay people even if they are am horatzim.
Going to arko"oys is not and should not be an option. I cannot even believe that you gave the excuse oh well many rabbonim go. they are corrupt assuming they are the nitvah or plaintiff and the toveah or defendant is willing to go to a bais din.
And there is one bais din which does follow din and does give a heichon dnisni or explanation doesn't charge and doesn't allow corrupt toanim in. So I think we have covered all bases here.
Frankly from Monte's comments it is hard not to conclude that he is a big time feminist who is ignorant of the court system and probably is not bothered by its corruption, it's total bias towards women and it's apartheid like approach to everything that men are black and evil. He or she needs a big wake up call to reality. When women are allowed to totally divorce their soon to be ex-husbands simply because a marriage has failed all in the name of the American concept of feminism and everyone is quite because after all the perpetrators of this system are the beneficiaries of this multi billion dollar a year industry we know we are in real Sedom ve'Amorah territory.
ReplyDeleteWhen in the frum world we have corrupt rabbonim ignoring the Torah and the Halocho we are in trouble. When we have leaders like Herschel Schachter, Shmuel Kamenetsky and others who completely ignore and treat with contempt multiple portions of the Shulchan Oruch, it's virtually game over. We are in the dor Hamabul with these leaders. It is hard to believe that less than a century after having tremendous geonim like the Brisker dynasty, Reb Chaim Oyzer, the Chazon Ish etc. we have fallen so low as to "merit" such corruption.
We need to find a a way to protest this and do so very vociferously.
“Divorce is ruination, and that’s why women didn’t have the right to divorce according to the Torah. Only men, because women are excitable and if women can give gittin, they’ll give gittin all the time. No matter why, but the facts are the men are slower, more deliberate.”
ReplyDeletePacer 2/28/2016
1. Motion by Appellant Binyamin Stimler in No. 15-4053 for Bail Pending Appeal;
2. Motion by Appellant Mendel Epstein in No. 15-4095 for Bail Pending
Appeal;
3. Joint Response by Appellee USA to in Opposition Appellants’ Motions for
Bail Pending Appeal;
4. Reply by Appellant Mendel Epstein in No. 15-4095; and
5. Reply by Appellant Binyamin Stimler in 15-4053
The foregoing motions are denied.
By the Court,
s/Joseph A. Greenaway, Jr.
Circuit Judge Maybe now the radical feminists will start talking differently. I say: a man and his wife fighting is like 2 dogs fighting, outsider should stay away or they’ll get bit “A passerby who gets embroiled in someone else’s quarrel Is like one who seizes a dog by its ears” (Proverbs 26:17). The radical feminists must stop taking the wife’s side and calling her a saint and a victim and claiming she’s an agunah. Rabbi Avigdor Miller writes the best on divorce!
When women are allowed to totally divorce should read totally destroy
ReplyDeleteMany great gedolim throughout golus, from ancient times through modern times, have offered opinions and explained why specific great tragedies occurred in Klal Yisroel.
ReplyDelete"There must be some responsibility on each town to provide a non-corrupt beis din."
ReplyDeleteOn this I could not agree more. That Agudas Yisroel that purports to represent Torah true Jews has not done so just proves how it needs to be destroyed because all it is is a money lobbying business. To run an erlich bais din can be done for under $1million a year in terms of salaries which is a joke for the wealthy NY community. Dayonim should be paid not by the litigants but by the community at large. Even the model of the Livingstone Street bais Din where they claim the dayonim get a flat salary not related to how much the litigants litigate when the fee is hundreds of dollars per hour is totally unacceptable.
At the end of the day unless the bais din is busy the dayonim will not get paid so they have every incentive to drag cases out. I will not discuss the other issues of this bais din which those who know how to google on ecourts can find.
" It is unfair to place the blame solely on those who seek arko'os as your comments thus far appear to suggest."
When it comes to divorce this is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. These for profit botei din know they will not get female clients unless they bend over backwards to distort halocho and apply the principles of equitable distribution and maintenance. they call this peshoro even though there is no basis for this in Shulchan Oruch. So women who still choose arko"oys when they can get virtually everything they want from these corrupt botei din who favor them are double reshoim/ rashantas as far as I am concerned.
Your bizui of an odom gadol and your nonsense argument about his being young at the time he was there is worthless and really doesn't deserve any response.
ReplyDeleteThe Eim Habonim Semeicha's opinion is his own and is discounted by Rav Elchonon Wasserman's opinion of zionism as well as the vast majority of gedolei and kedoshei Yisroel.
I have no curiosity in idle ramblings with no basis.
Perhaps it is the other way around- the majority who you claim opposed Zionism were historically wrong, in that they predicted they would be saved because they opposed it. Rav Teichtel was actually one of them but he saw the fallacy in his own position.
ReplyDeleteI know of no one who claimed they would be saved physically in this world because of anti Zionism. The vast majority of chareidi gedolim agree with Rav Elchonon that the Torah is not lacking and Zionism nor any other external philosophy is needed to complete it. Rav Elchonon felt that even religious Zionism is avoda zora beshituf. Plain Zionism is dead among the non Orthodox Jewish public so how could it save anything? Gush Katif was another nail in the coffin of Zionism.
ReplyDeleteNo one else outside of the dati leumi group that I know of has expressed that Zionism saved the Jews.
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