בס"ד ז אדר ב' תשע"ו לפ"ק
לכבוד ידידי הרב מנחם מענדל סענדרוביץ שליט"א
אחדשה"ט.
הנה בשבוע היאהרצייט של הגאון בעל אג"מ זצוק"ל באתי לעורר אף שהי' אוהב שלו' ורודף שלו' מ"מ כשהרב גורן התיר ממזרים שלא כדין הי' מהעומדים בפרץ נגדו. ועל כן לענין היתר אשת איש של האשה תמר עפשטיין אין לפחד שאם הב"ד יאמר האמת שהיא אשת איש יש כאן בזיון ת"ח ולא תגורו מפני איש קאי גם
אם האיש ת"ח [והרב גורן הי' ת"ח מופלג הרבה יותר ממי שהתיר האשת איש הנ"ל]
ואף שדרך כלל אינני רוצה לומר לב"ד מה לעשות אבל כאן אני חש מאד על כבוד הב"ד אם לא יאמרו כל האמת כמו שהוא
והנני מברכו בכל טוב כל הימים
ידידו
שלמה אליהו מילר
In honor of my dear friend Rav Menachem Mendel Senderoric (3rd dayan of Rav Feinstein's Beis Din)
Now that it is the week of the Yahrtzeit of Rav Moshe Feinstein - I am am writing this to encourage you. By stating that even though Rav Moshe loved peace and he pursued peace - nevertheless in the case of Rav Goren who gave a heter for mamzerim against the halacha - he strongly opposed this breach in Torah observance. Therefore in the present case of giving a heter to a married woman Tamar Epstein [to remarry without a Get] you should not be afraid -that if the beis din says the truth that she is in fact a married woman who is remarrying improperly without a Get - that you will disgrace a talmid chachom [Rav Greenblatt]. The Torah says not to withhold judgment out of fear from any man - and that means even if he is a talmid chachom. [And the fact is that Rav Goren was an exceedingly greater talmid chachom than [Rav Greenblatt] who issued the heter to Tamar Epstein.]
So even though in general I don't tell a beis din what they should do, but in this case I am very concerned for the reputation of the beis din if they do not say the whole truth as it actually is.
Difficult to read the image. Can we get a clear text - or, preferably, a translation?
ReplyDeleteZayin Adar Bais is not "new"
ReplyDeleteThe lion has awoken
ReplyDeleteארי החי בתורה
מי כמוה מורה
רבן של בני תורה
Looks like the page was crumpled up and thrown out for some reason. Perhaps an explanation is in order.
ReplyDeleteClick on it -- it displays clearly.
ReplyDeleteבס"ד ז אדר ב' תשעו לפק
ReplyDeleteלכבוד ידידי הרב מנחם מענדל סענדרוביץ שליט"א
אחדשה"ט
הנה בשבוע ה'יאהרצייט' של הגאון בעל אג"מ זצוק"ל באתי לעורר
אף שהי' אוהב שלו' ורודף שלו' מ"מ כשהרב גורן התיר ממזרים
שלא כדין הי' מהעומדים בפרץ נגדו. ועל כן לענין היתר אשת
איש של האשה תמר עפשטיין אין לפחד שאם הב"ד יאמר האמת שהיא
אשת איש יש כאן בזיון ת"ח ולא תגורו מפני איש קאי גם אם
האיש ת"ח [והרב גורן הי' ת"ח מופלג הרבה יותר ממי שהתיר
האשת איש הנ"ל]
ואף שדרך כלל איני רוצה לומר לב"ד מה לעשות אבל
כאן אני חש מאד על כבוד הב"ד אם לא יאמרו כל
האמת כמו שהוא
והנני מברכו בכל טוב כל הימים
ידידו שלמה אליהו מילר
The letter actually makes no sense. He writes that they shouldn't let the fact that there may end up being a bizayon to a talmid chacham get in the way of issuing a ruling against the heter because when R' Goren was matir mamzeirim the fact that he was a talmud chacham didn't stop anyone from protesting the heter. (and R' Goren was a much bigger talmud chacham than the rav who was matter this current wishes ish). He concludes that he normally doesn't tell a B"D what he thinks they should do but he is concerned for the Kavod of the B"D as he is afraid they will end being ill informed of the true details.
ReplyDeleteSo basically RSM is mixing in because he's afraid of the B"D being embarrassed if they rule for the heter based upon bad testimony. Therefore, they should know that its ok to rule even if a talmid chacham will be embarrassed. The logic is just not there and the letter makes no sense. Anyone can see that he needed to get his opinion across and used RMF's yahrzeit as an excuse to bash the heter.
RSM is really a gadol, if you have any doubt just ask him, and he will confirm it without hesitation
ReplyDeleteWhy is it assumed that Rav Miller is referring to Rabbi Greenblat Maybe he is referring to Rabbis Kaminetsky?
ReplyDeleteRSM has for many years been known as one of this generations greatest talmidei chachomim.
ReplyDeleteAnd RSM is concerned that the BD will refrain from saying the heter is invalid and rather day nothing; he doesn't seem concerned the BD would say it is valid.
RSM is not worried that the BD will rule wrongly because of bad testimony. He is worried that because of bizayon talmid chochom the BD will fail to publicize all that the BD knows.
ReplyDeleteIts been perplexing that a BD is called and then the "verdict" is publicized with a letter by a supporter of TE (Rabbi S Kaminetsky Shlita) but here we have the answer that the BD will not give a verdict for fear of saying all the truth will embarrass a big Talmid Chochom.
ReplyDeleteSince both Tamar and her Husband (Aaron Friedman) didn't appear to the Bais Din, I am not sure a BD can (legally and halachically) give a psak under such circumstances, since the eidus and proceedings were "sheloi bifnei baalei devorim" and the actual structure and legality of the BD is also questionable, since they were not proceeding with the permission and participation of the baalei d'vorim. In a choshen mishpot case this would surely be disallowed.
But the Diary that Tamar wrote for the reason she is pursuing separation originally gives away that she never thought AF was insane or OCD, only she thought he was not helpful enough etc in the home and not social enough. SO the psak is really poshut.
Anyone know if if TE is still together with her new HUsband still.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Reb Dovid Shlita didnt want to publicize a Verdict because he didnt want to brand a (possible) baby as a vadai mamzer ?
Seems like RSM wanted to preempt the concern that publicizing the psak against the heter would be mevazeh RSK RNG.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if tamar is pregnant?
ReplyDeleteWhat would the world be like if not for moreinu reb shlomo Miller Shlita
ReplyDeleteThe Kam's puiblicly accepted that the Heter is worthless. RNG seems lost in the shuffle and not clear whether he is included when informing the "Ba'alei Dovor". Some say that the couple hang on to each other by relying on RNG that yet has to publicly RETRACT. Therefore, it is only RNG still holding the BAG. If RNG doesn't retract publicly, you will soon hear all about it, and very specific to whom.
ReplyDeleteThats even worse because it shows he has no respect for any one of them if he thought they will paskem shelo kehalacha. The man has a real issue
ReplyDeleteOne less hothead.
ReplyDeleteWho authorized publication of this private letter?What happened to CHerem DRG?
ReplyDeleteOf course, Kovod HaTorah precedes the kovod of its learners.....needless to say that observing the Torah is bestowing it the greatest honor ....and honoring its desecrators...ain loch bizoyon godol mee zu!....
ReplyDeletewhat makes you so sure it wasn't meant for pirsum? aderaba ipcha mistavra
ReplyDeletego to hell - and when you get there, say hi to Goren, and (hopefully) Jeremy Stern and ORA, and (tentatively) the Kam.
ReplyDeletethat's what I thought! Why else would he tell Senderovic, if not for Kamenetzky sitting in front of the Dayanim?
ReplyDeleteI haven't lost faith in R' Shlomo Eliyohu Miller for this whole process~ לא אלמן ישראל
ReplyDeleteOf course RSM authorizes the publication.
ReplyDeleteWADR
ReplyDeleteFrom the looks of its crumpled state, it looks like it was taken out of a wastebasket.
ReplyDeleteWADR, the facts of the current case sell much better than the comparison to goren. goren was despised for decades before his heter mamzerim, the machaah was coming to him. the opposite is true of the current matir(im) so people remain concerned about their kavod.
ReplyDelete(they don't know or don't believe are unsure about what happened in Vegas and etc.)
I read it not as that he is "worried over the kavod of THE BD" but rather he is worried about the kavod of the overall institution of BD if they allow themselves to be influenced and rule incorrectly.
ReplyDeleteYou are a mtunaf boor.
ReplyDeleteStay tuned!
ReplyDeletewho wil go up against Reb Nota ? No-one !
ReplyDeleteThe master of projection is back at it. No, no, that's what we would be like without Jr.
ReplyDeleteThats his mo like it or not. There are numerous talmidie chachomim of equal and greater caliber. But not in kanois.
ReplyDeleteלכבוד הה"ג ר'.......
ReplyDeleteמה ששאלת, אם יש ללחוץ על אהרן פרידמן לתת גט לאשתו, כדי להציל אותה ובועלה מאיסורים חמורים תדע שההיפך מבואר בפוסקים עי' בשו"מ מהדו"ק סימן ה' שכותב שלא להזדקק לגט זה כלל, כי יש שיחשבו שע"י גט זה מותרת לבועלה, ובאמת אסורה לבועלה, ועי' כעיו זה ברדב"ז חלק ז' סימן י"א וי"ב
Talk of projection. Buddy, u got some serious problems with your mirror.
ReplyDeleteRSM just shot a warning across the bow. The Coalition forces will follow putting in the last nail if he doesn't make the right move. He will be a has been.
ReplyDeleteOr it sat in his kapota pocket in a rainstorm, or he dropped it and it was run over by an 18-wheeler, or his einikel found it on the desk and crumpled it, or ...
ReplyDeleteThe Shadow knows. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
ReplyDeleteBut that did happen to an extent -- they totally pulled their punch b/c of bizayon talmid chacham.
ReplyDeleteOK, let's talk substance. Please cite three example of where you would like to claim that Rav Miller Shelita behaved with hotheaded impulsiveness.
ReplyDeleteI'll begin with citing a case of where Jr. behaved with hotheaded impulsiveness. I have five important cases to mention, if need be.
1) "Mekach tous." When Mendel Epstein got arrested, he decided to create a nutcase out of a sane man, in order to somehow still get his way. He was going to "win" at all costs. With that, he destroyed his reputation, caused terrible adultery and probably, mamzeirus.
Go ahead.
if he thought they will paskem shelo kehalacha.
ReplyDeleteEnglish, buddy. He never thought that "they will paskem shelo kehalacha." He knew that they were trying to keep their psak private, as they actually have done thus far.
Chalila lecha to imply that Maran HAGRISH uchedome came out against Goren because of prior grudges. What Goren did was inexcusable. the mamzerus issue was so brazen and disgusting, and daa dangerous pritzas geder that would open the flood gates of gilui ponim shelo kehalacha. Sounds familiar? Yeah this heter is the exact replica. Just with lesser talmidei chachamim thumbing the scale instead of the Rav harashi.
ReplyDeleteRAY Soloveitchik was the first to make the correlation according to my knowledge, and with the classic brisker sharfkeit it's a perfect comparison.
It has been exposed to us that the current velt of the self proclaimed chareidim ledvar Hashem plays favorites. Look good in a frock and homburg? (Goren bshitta wore his IDF uniform) had a big rabbinic name? (Goren did not come from a famous rabbinic father) have a prestigious yeshiva that if closed down or exposed in any way would upset the apple cart of the American Torah world? (Goren didn't) entrenched in the kiruv/baalei batish rabbinic world that funnels millions of dollars to pet projects?.well Then... your part of the protected class of the Torah world.
Let's be consistent and realize that a pirtza is a pirtza. And no matter who did it we have to call a spade a spade and let the chips fall where they may.
"Kanois". In his days, Pinchos be Aharon HaKohen had to do the dirty work, now it was Rav Shlomo Miller who did while almost everybody conveniently and comfortably looked the other way...
ReplyDeleteWho know what fetus lies in the belly of woman?
ReplyDelete“So even though in general I don't tell a beis din what they should do, but in this case I am very concerned for the reputation of the beis din if they do not say the whole truth as it actually is.”
ReplyDeleteThis tact is smart and proper. Indeed, the reputation of the beit din is at stake if they don’t say the whole truth.
The fellow who does the regular shalish shudes devar torah reads often, and so do I, from Rabbi Goren’s superb books. Rabbi Goren was such a prolific and brilliant writer. I have no idea about the mamzer issue and the big fight against Rabbi Goren.
As his gabbai that didn't happen probably leeked from receiving end
ReplyDeleteDoes it matter? If she is the child is scarred for life as a mamzer. If she isn't, she has time to still avoid stigmatizing her offspring.
ReplyDeleteNot only that, but RSM brought on the TOP GUNNERS of the world along with him, and they sure blew their horns with a TEKIAH GEDOLA, that was heard misof haolam ad sofo!
ReplyDeleteMegaleh ponim baTorah is first and foremost for poskei Halacha and their kovod is not above kvod haTorah and Kvod Shamayim. Yikov haDin et haHar!
ReplyDeleteYou must be a young man. The Langer Mamzerus case almost destroyed the Chief Rabbinate. The repercussions have effects even today.
ReplyDeleteVehineh perush haPitgam:
ReplyDeleteאבל
כאן אני חש מאד על כבוד הב"ד אם לא יאמרו כל
האמת כמו שהוא
Part of the EMES is, that it's worthless, along with the retraction of RSK's.
*כל*
האמת כמו שהוא
is in reference to ===> RNG:
that she still remains an eishes ish lechol dovor and her children when and if any will be full blown mamzerim, therefore the quote of R' Goren that was guilty of the same. Since we haven't heard a retraction from RNG, it is only he who was/is the Posek left that the Boel and Nival hang and rely on, provided of course that they are still together. We must *hear* the *Whole Truth* so that the Adam's should depart as R'MF held against R' Goren's wrongful HETER mamzerim.
Lechol man deboie lemeida - This IS the Veidach zil ugmor in totto.
Orthodoxy was about to go extinct a few decades ago, then it was saved by a small group of "hotheads".
ReplyDeleteMost powerful Orthodox groups (that are also powerfully Orthodox) were founded by "hotheads".
Thank you for making sure no no one should think that goren was opposed because of grudges. I said that the facts are are a very good (actually the words were "a much better") sell. But people might imply that so thank you.
ReplyDeleteMy comment was also about what "sells" to "people". How much headway have you made with supporters of the hetter and with the hushers?
Generally people don't EVEN think that that a נושא הרבה מאד ספרים and a ת"ח ממוצע מאנ"ש are comparable.
“So even though in general I don't tell a beis din what they should do, but in this case I am very concerned for the reputation of the beis din if they do not say the whole truth as it actually is.”
ReplyDeleteDid Kaminetskys-Greenblatt make any statements which they knew to be false? Perjury is the willful telling of a lie. Surely, a beis din can determine if Kaminetskys-Greenblatt are guilty of perjury. This may be the reason days Rav Dovid Feinstein's Beis Din has considered Heter is, today, 58 days !!! My guess is that the beis din doesn’t know what to do---to punish the liars or to be quiet.
I'm told that this is from rav miller to rav shuchotovits of baltimore
ReplyDeleteIf you look carefully on the folds, you would notice the right angles, e.g. ==> *L* . It was folded up and tucked away in the pocket from the receivers end understood. You send a letter fresh and crispy, not crumpled.
ReplyDeleteI do notice that R S Miller writes very respectfully to rabonim and BD's and I believe מה ששאלת would be unbecoming. Imho.
ReplyDeletehave a great Shabbos
And rightfully so. Where in Shas Uposkim do you find when the whole world is up in arms about a Sha'arurya to fix something that it shouldn't repeat, to slice and dice a Psak into a narrow segment that makes it seem that concerns of Eishes Ish and mamzeirus are fine and dandy. More so, in this very same issue the Mishnah takes a precaution to order a Get of second paramour so that people shouldn't think that a woman can be freed without a Get.(see Mishnah). This issue hasn't yet seen the end of this, it must be settled in a Torah manner kedei shelo yeitzei Tkala mize ubechiya ledoros. And we are glad to have Anshei Emes that are omdim bePeretz uvMilchatah shel Torah. Shabbat Shalom to all.
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody keep track of their descendants?
ReplyDeleteDid those two Langer siblings, from Goren's heter, have children?
ReplyDeletenobody knows who they are, or who their offspring are
ReplyDeleteEveryone knew who the two Langer siblings were at the time, so how would no one knows who they are now?
ReplyDeletethey changed their names etc.
ReplyDeletewith Tamar E, she is in the frum world, but the Langers were not, and they've probably disappeared
Was it reported somewhere that they changed their names or do you know that some other way?
ReplyDeleteThe sister would have changed her name when she got married, anyways. I don't know for sure about the brother, but since it was done in secrecy, likelihood is that he is no longer using the Langer name.
ReplyDeleteFYI, there is a lot of intermarriage going on now in Israel, either with complete goyim, or quickie conversions. I am becoming a bit more Haredi in my outlook these days!
Maybe Klal Yisroel got lucky and if the Langer siblings had children (hopefully they didn't) their children married goyim.
ReplyDeletethey are not mamzerim, since you cannot track them down
ReplyDeleteperhaps the children did intermarry or something, who knows?
They were officially paskened and ruled upon that they are mamzeirim. So they, and any potential offspring, are mamzeirim.
ReplyDeleteand here is the trackdown...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kvetchingeditor.com/2012/05/heres-to-you-rabbi-goren.html
She knows!
The Langer Siblings got married and lived happily ever after.
*****************************
Tuesday, May 29, 2012
Here's to You, Rabbi Goren
Here we go again!
"Israel's High Court affirms thousands of conversions are kosher"
In case you ever wondered where this whole "let's revoke conversions" thing came from, the story is simple, and it involves the Langer Siblings.
Once upon a time, a non-Jewish Polish man named Borokovsky married a 16-year-old Jewish girl. Her parents pushed the man to convert, and so he did. After several years, the Jewish girl left the Polish man, but she never sought a get. Then, she remarried a Jewish man and they had two children. When those two children born of the second marriage were of marrying age, they filed for marriage licenses, only to be turned down on the grounds that they were mamzerim (bastard children, basically) because this nice Jewish girl didn't bother to get a get.
The case became incredibly popular, pulling in words from Moshe Dayan and Golda Meir.
Oh hello Rabbi Goren.
What ended up happening is the genius Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren decided that in order for these two poor children to get married, the only thing to do would be to annul the Polish man's conversion so that her marriage to him was not kosher and that her second marriage was kosher and the children would not fall into the mamzer category.
This rabbi looked and said, well, you know, we really don't know the legitimacy of the Polish man's conversion, nor do we really know that he's living a Jewish life, so, yeah, let's revoke his conversion years after the fact.
The Langer Siblings got married and lived happily ever after.
...
I happened to come across TE's linkedIn profle (we know common people) and as of yesterday her profile name was not epstein or freidmanm but rather as fleischer.
ReplyDeleteso you can extrapolate what you want from that.